Hannah, do not forget that Atheists have their own dogma:  "There is no God"

[B]John Chapter 8, verses 1-11:

Jesus went unto the mount of Olives.

And early in the morning he came again into the temple, and all the people came unto him; and he sat down, and taught them.

And the scribes and Pharisees brought unto him a woman taken in adultery; and when they had set her in the midst,

They say unto him, Master, this woman was taken in adultery, in the very act.

Now Moses in the law commanded us, that such should be stoned: but what sayest thou?

This they said, tempting him, that they might have to accuse him. But Jesus stooped down, and with his finger wrote on the ground, as though he heard them not.

So when they continued asking him, he lifted up himself, and said unto them, He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her.

And again he stooped down, and wrote on the ground.

And they which heard it, being convicted by their own conscience, went out one by one, beginning at the eldest, even unto the last: and Jesus was left alone, and the woman standing in the midst.

When Jesus had lifted up himself, and saw none but the woman, he said unto her, Woman, where are those thine accusers? hath no man condemned thee?

She said, No man, Lord. And Jesus said unto her, Neither do I condemn thee: go, and sin no more.[/B]

Funny how so many 'Christians' forget that simple piece of scripture.  It says much about people, and more about the loving grace of Jesus.  We are not pious becuase we are Christians or because we are saved.  We only recognize that we are all sinners, but we will be forgiven of our sins by the gift of His Son, Jesus Christ.  It is an attempt to follow the teachings of Christ and be better people, not an instant fix that makes us better than everyone else.  Truly, the goal is to save the rest of the sinners, just as we were saved.  That is why I have never enjoyed attending church.  People think they are somehow superior because they sit in a pew, yet the message of God is lost upon them.

As far as the BS about Bush and Sharon trying to speed the Rapture, the Jews don't believe in it at all!  The Bible says the day and time are not known, though the birth pains (signs) will be evident.  Jesus comes when he comes, and only He knows the exact time.  Anyone trying to tell you they know when is selling something.

God Bless Texas

Hannah,

Didn't you say you were a follower of some druidic earth religion of some sort?






Interesting story that... and do ask about the *many meanings* of the sig line phrase...

Then we agree.  



And I have not tried to, though there is some need for clarification.  Jesus comes [b]twice[/b], once to rapture the dead in Christ and the living in the Church, and then again 7 years later in flesh to start the Millennial Reign of Heaven on Earth.  Only God knows the hour in which He comes for His church, yet after that event there is no doubt how long it will take Him to come back in flesh.  Yet the Bible says to watch for the birth pains/signs to know that He is coming, and that's for the Church, not to setup God's kingdom on Earth.  But yes, it is impossible to reconcile, especially when the Bible literally says only God knows when he comes for the Church.

God Bless Texas

I'm checking out of this thread for the night.  Have to go home, get some sleep, and then be back here in 8 hours.

Me too!  "The Unholy Alliance" was the name of my Quake clan back in [i]the day[/i].

Sorry, I just wanted to weigh in with something of equal gravity as a theory of trying to "force the rapture".

[rolleyes]

-kill-9

[url]http://www.ffrf.org/fttoday/march96/morris.html[/url]

The Founding Fathers Were Not Christians
By Steven Morris, Ph.D.
The Christian Right is trying to rewrite the history of the United States, as part of their campaign to force their religion on others who ask merely to be left alone. According to this Orwellian revision, the Founding Fathers of this country were pious Christians who wanted the United States to be a Christian nation, with laws that favored Christians and Christianity.
Not true! The early presidents and patriots were generally Deists or Unitarians, believing in some form of impersonal Providence but rejecting the divinity of Jesus and the absurdities of the Old and New Testaments.

Thomas Paine, pamphleteer whose manifestoes encouraged the faltering spirits of the country and aided materially in winning the War of Independence: "I do not believe in the creed professed by the Jewish church, by the Roman church, by the Greek church, by the Turkish church, by the Protestant church, nor by any church that I know of . . . Each of those churches accuse the other of unbelief; and for my own part, I disbelieve them all." [1]

George Washington, first president: He seems to have had the characteristic unconcern of the 18th century Deist for the forms and creeds of institutional religion. Although he often referred to Providence as an impersonal force, remote and abstract, he never declared himself to be a Christian according to contemporary reports or in any of his voluminous correspondence. Washington championed the cause of freedom from religious intolerance and compulsion. When John Murray (a Universalist who denied the existence of Hell) was invited to become an army chaplain, the other chaplains petitioned for his dismissal. Instead, Washington gave him the appointment. On his deathbed, Washington uttered no words of a religious nature and did not call for a clergyman to be in attendance. [2]

John Adams, second president: Drawn to the study of law but facing pressure from his father to become a clergyman, he wrote that he found among the lawyers "a noble air and gallant achievements" but among the clergy, the "pretended sanctity of some absolute dunces." [3] Late in life, he wrote, "As I understand the Christian religion, it was, and is, a revelation. But how has it happened that millions of fables, tales, legends have been blended with both Jewish and Christian revelation that have made them the most bloody religion that ever existed?" [4]

It was during Adams' presidency that the Senate ratified the Treaty of Peace and Friendship, which states in Article XI that "the Government of the United States of America is not in any sense founded on the Christian religion." This treaty with Tripoli was written and concluded by Joel Barlow during Washington's administration. [2]

Thomas Jefferson, third president and author of the Declaration of Independence: "I trust that there is not a young man now living in the United States who will not die an Unitarian." [5] He referred to the Revelation of St. John as "the ravings of a maniac" [6] and wrote, "The Christian priesthood, finding the doctrines of Christ levelled to every understanding and too plain to need explanation, saw, in the mysticisms of Plato, materials with which they might build up an artificial system which might, from its indistinctness, admit everlasting controversy, give employment for their order, and introduce it to profit, power and preeminence. The doctrines which flowed from the lips of Jesus himself are within the comprehension of a child; but thousands of volumes have not yet explained the Platonisms engrafted on them: and for this obvious reason that nonsense can never be explained." [7]

James Madison, fourth president and Father of the Constitution: Madison was not religious in any conventional sense. "Religious bondage shackles and debilitates the mind and unfits it for every noble enterprise." [8] "During almost fifteen centuries has the legal establishment of Christianity been on trial. What have been its fruits? More or less in all places, pride and indolence in the Clergy, ignorance and servility in the laity; in both, superstition, bigotry and persecution." [9]

Ethan Allen, whose capture of Fort Ticonderoga while commanding the Green Mountain boys helped inspire Congress and the country to pursue the War of Independence: "That Jesus Christ was not God is evident from his own words." In the same book, Allen noted that he was generally "denominated a Deist, the reality of which I never disputed, being conscious I am no Christian." [10] When Allen married Fanny Buchanan, he stopped his own wedding ceremony when the Judge asked him if he promised "to live with Fanny Buchanan agreeable to the laws of God." Allen refused to answer until the Judge agreed that the God referred to was the God of Nature, and the laws those "written in the great book of Nature." [11]

Benjamin Franklin, delegate to the Continental Congress and the Constitutional Convention: "As to Jesus of Nazareth, my Opinion of whom you particularly desire, I think the System of Morals and his Religion . . . has received various corrupting Changes, and I have, with most of the present Dissenters in England, some Doubts as to his Divinity; tho' it is a question I do not dogmatize upon, having never studied it, and think it needless to busy myself with it now, when I expect soon an Opportunity of knowing the Truth with less Trouble." [12] He died a month later, and historians consider him, like so many great Americans of his time, as a Deist, not a Christian.

But some were...

[url]http://r2rministries.com/history/X0067_America_-_A_Christia.html[/url]

Was America founded as a Christian nation?

There are many today who would doubt or deny that this is true. There has even been an attempt to cover up and, in some cases, to destroy the legacy of Christian thinking that has gone into the formation of our republic. Yet what were the true thoughts and intentions of the men and women who came before us?

A careful look into the past reveals landmarks which were essential in guiding America along the pathway that led us to where we are today. More often than not, at each one of these landmarks, there also appears irrefutable evidence that a sense of divine destiny accompanied the most important events of our history.

Here in part are some of these landmarks:

1490-1492 - Columbus' commission was given to set out to find a new world.

According to Columbus' personal log, his purpose in seeking undiscovered worlds was to "bring the Gospel of Jesus Christ to the heathens. .... It was the Lord who put into my mind ... that it would be possible to sail from here to the Indies ... I am the most unworthy sinner, but I have cried out to the Lord for grace and mercy, and they have covered me completely ... No one should fear to undertake any task in the name of our Saviour, if it is just and if the intention is purely for His holy service." (Columbus' Book of Prophecies)

April 10, 1606 - The Charter for the Virginia Colony read in part:

"To the glory of His divine Majesty, in propagating of the Christian religion to such people as yet live in ignorance of the true knowledge and worship of God."

November 3, 1620 - King James I grants the Charter of the Plymouth council.

"In the hope thereby to advance the enlargement of the Christian religion, to the glory of God Almighty."

November 11, 1620 - The Pilgrims sign the Mayflower Compact aboard the Mayflower, in Plymouth harbor.

"For the glory of God and advancement of ye Christian faith ... doe by these presents solemnly & mutually in ye presence of God and one of another, covenant & combine our selves togeather into a civill body politick."

March 4, 1629 - The first Charter of Massachusetts read in part:

"For the directing, ruling, and disposeing of all other Matters and Thinges, whereby our said People may be soe religiously, peaceablie, and civilly governed, as their good life and orderlie Conversacon, maie wynn and incite the Natives of the Country to the Knowledg and Obedience of the onlie true God and Savior of Mankinde, and the Christian Fayth, which in our Royall Intencon, and The Adventurers free profession, is the principall Ende of the Plantacion.."

January 14, 1638 - The towns of Hartford, Weathersfield and Windsor adopt the Fundamental Orders of Connecticut.

"To mayntayne and presearve the liberty and purity of the Gospell of our Lord Jesus, which we now professe..."

August 4, 1639 - The governing body of New Hampshire is established.

"Considering with ourselves the holy will of God and our own necessity, that we should not live without wholesome laws and civil government among us, of which we are altogether destitute, do, in the name of Christ and in the sight of God, combine ourselves together to erect and set up among us such government as shall be, to our best discerning, agreeable to the will of God..."

September 26, 1642 - The rules and precepts that were to govern Harvard were set up.

"Let every Student be plainly instructed, and earnestly pressed to consider well, the maine end of his life and studies is, to know God and Jesus Christ which is eternall life, John 17:3 and therefore to lay Christ in the bottome, as the only foundation of all sound knowledge and Learning. And seeing the Lord only giveth wisdome, Let every one seriously set himselfe by prayer in secret to seeke it of him Prov. 2.3."

Harvard College was founded on Christi Gloriam and later dedicated Christo et Ecclesiae. The founders of Harvard believed that "all knowledge without Christ was vain."

The charter of Yale University clearly expressed the purpose for which the school was founded: "Whereas several well disposed and Publick spirited Persons of their sincere Regard to & zeal for upholding & propagating of the Christian Protestant Religion ... youth may be instructed in the Arts & Sciences who through the blessing of Almighty God may be fitted for Publick employment both in Church & Civil State."

In addition to Harvard and Yale, 106 out of the first 108 schools in America were founded on the Christian faith.

April 3, 1644 - The New Haven Colony adopts their charter.

"That the judicial laws of God, as they were delivered by Moses ... be a rule to all the courts in this jurisdiction ..."

1647 - Governor William Bradford publishes Of Plimouth Plantation.

"Lastly, (and which was not least,) a great hope and inward zeall they (the Pilgrims) had of laying some good foundation, or at least to make some way thereunto, for ye propagation and advancing of ye gospell or ye kingdom of Christ in those remote parts of ye world; yea, though they should be but stepping-stones unto others for ye performing of so great a work ... their desires were set on ye ways of God, and to employ his ordinances; but they rested on his providence, and know whom they had beleeved."

April 21, 1649 - The Maryland Toleration Act is passed.

"Be it therefore ... enacted ... that no person or persons whatsoever within this province ... professing to believe in Jesus Christ shall ... henceforth be any ways troubled, molested (or disapproved of) ... in respect of his or her religion nor in the free exercise thereof ..."

April 25, 1689 - The Great Law of Pennsylvania is passed.

"Whereas the glory of Almighty God and the good of mankind is the reason and the end of government ... therefore government itself is a venerable ordinance of God ..."

May 20, 1775 - North Carolina passes the Mecklenburg County Resolutions.

"We hereby declare ourselves a free and independent people; are, and of a right ought to be, a sovereign and self-governing association, under control of no other power than that of our God and the general government of Congress."

Summer 12, 1775 - Continental Congress issues a call to all citizens to fast and pray and confess their sin that the Lord might bless the land.

"And it is recommended to Christians of all denominations, to assemble for public worship, and to abstain from servile labor and recreation on said day."

Summer 2-4, 1776 - Declaration of Independence written and signed.

"We hold these truths ... that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain inalienable rights ... appealing to the Supreme Judge of the world ... And for the support of this Declaration, with firm reliance on the protection of Divine Providence..."

As the Declaration was being signed, Samuel Adams said: "We have this day restored the Sovereign to Whom all men ought to be obedient. He reigns in heaven, and from the rising to the setting of the sun, let his kingdom come."

On the same day, Benjamin Franklin suggested that the national motto be: "Rebellion to tyrants is obedience to God."

Historian and philosopher G.K. Chesterton said of the founding of America that it is "the only nation in the world that is founded on a creed. That creed is set forth in dogmatic and even theological lucidity in the Declaration of Independence."

September 17, 1787 - The Constitution of the United States is finished.

At least 50 out of the 55 men who framed the Constitution of the United States were professing Christians. (M.E. Bradford, A Worthy Company, Plymouth Rock Foundation., 1982).

Eleven of the first 13 States required faith in Jesus Christ and the Bible as qualification for holding public office.

The Constitution of each of the 50 States acknowledges and calls upon the Providence of God for the blessings of freedom.

1787 - James Madison, the "architect" of the federal Constitution and fourth president:

"We have staked the whole future of American civilization, not upon the power of government, far from it. We have staked the future .. upon the capacity of each and all of us to govern ourselves, to sustain ourselves, according to the Ten Commandments of God."

April 30, 1789 - Washington gives his First Inaugural Address.

"My fervent supplications to that Almighty Being Who rules over the universe, Who presides in the council of nations, and Whose providential aid can supply every human defect, that His benediction may consecrate to the liberties and happiness of the people of the United States a government instituted by Himself for these essential purposes."

March 11, 1792 - President George Washington:

"I am sure that never was a people who had more reason to acknowledge a Divine interposition in their affairs than those of the United States; and I should be pained to believe that they have forgotten that agency which so often manifested in the Revolution."

Hannah, wars are fought for economic reasons.  Sure, the respective leaders often invoke religion as a way to get popular support, but you can rest assured the fighting is over money and power.  If you read some history, you will gain understanding of the underlying causes.  

Also, in the last couple centuries, most of the people killed, died at the hands of their own government. Again, economics and political power was the catalyst.  

I know it can be tempting to parrot those phrases you have heard again and again, but you loose credibility when you do.

Also, please remember that the idiots that make up these ridiculous lies about Pres. Bush have there own agendas.

Namely, they are liberals that wish to discredit conservatives any way they can.

So rest easy, you are in much greater peril from the Godless liberals than from Pres. Bush and company

PS.  The Russians thought that Ronald Reagan might want to hasten the end of the world, and it only helped us to win the cold war.

Almost all were Christians and a couple were deists...which ones were atheists?  Anyway, the overwhelming majority were Christians...and Belloc listed many interesting quotes in another thread.

Pssst, so did I.

A few non believers...

Thomas Payne, Ethan Allan and likely John Adams.

Interesting, how the most inflammatory stuff always gets denied when it is dredged up to the light of day, isn't it?
The same game is used with the hateful parts of the Talmud, I believe, right?
And yet, there exist today, folks that call themselves "Lutherans", and "Talmudic Research Centers".
This is just the tip of the iceberg concerning my personal rejection of the "Religions of the Book".
Many hateful things have been espoused in the name of the "Book".
Yet no one even has the balls to claim their religious leaders' teachings later.
Pure hypocrisy.
And I reject it all.
Gimme that Old Time Religion!
Wotan über alles!

PS:
And yes, as I have explained countless times before, I use the name of my distant relative, Hanna Reitsch as a nick here.
She was a Nazi test pilot, but never flew combat missions.
She had the courage of 10 men.
I was a pilot as a kid, and am very honored to have her in the family tree.
So sue me.

Cheryl,
I was disappointed by the tone of your diatribe.  It seems purposefully inflammatory.  Your use of phrases such as “Idiot religious fanatics” and “Extremist Rightwing Christians and Zionists” confirms this.  

For those of you (both atheists/non-theists and theists of both Christian and other persuasions) who want a more intellectually satisfying approach to this centuries old “conversation”, I would encourage you to visit the following website http://members.tripod.com/~vantillian/debates.html for a defense of Christianity from an evangelical perspective.  I also encourage you to post links to your favorite websites related to these issues.  If you believe your worldview to be true, then post a link.  After all, the truth should never be afraid of falsehood, right?

On a personal note, I embraced agnosticism during and after my college years.  My reasons for rejecting Christianity had an ulterior motive – if there is no objective standard of right and wrong, then I could womanize, steal, cheat, get drunk, etc. all I wanted.  In the interest of “justifying” my behavior (to myself mostly, and to my parents and friends) I embarked on a quest to debunk this “God” hypothesis.  After all, if there are no cops on the freeway, then I can speed all I want.  Unfortunately for my lifestyle, I found sufficient reason to acknowledge Christ as my Lord and Savior.

I encourage you to make an informed decision.  Too many times, we dismiss a proposition based not on whether it is true or not, but on the emotional capital we’ve invested elsewhere.
RickyRifle


“…the issue is not whether the atheists or professing Christians have ever done anything undesirable or morally unacceptable.  One need only think respectively of the atheist involvement in the Reign of Terror in the French Revolution and the professing Christian involved in the Spanish Inquisition.  Now the question is not whether adherents of these systems have lived spotless lives, but whether atheism or Christian theism as philosophical systems are objectively true."  Dr. Greg Bahnsen

Ricky Rifle:
"Cheryl" wrote the piece I posted here.
Not me.
She is not on this board. Addressing her here won't get through to her. Perhaps contact her through her website.

[:D]

Oops! [:I]

I was assuming Cheryl was your "nom de plume" on another website.  I'd edit my post but then your reply wouldn't make sense!  Oh well, I'll use this opportunity to add an autolink to the url I posted above:

[url]http://members.tripod.com/~vantillian/debates.html[/url]

Which 10 men?  I can think of a few courageous ones.

Post from Hannah_Reitsch -

Ah, that's what I love about being a member of the church of Christ!

Each congregation is 'independently owned and operated.'[:D]

We don't have any 'religious leaders' whose teachings we have to worry about.

We only have [u]one[/u] 'religious leader' and His name is [b]Jesus[/b].

I challenge you to find one embarrassing thing that [b]Jesus[/b] ever said or taught.

Eric The(TryingToLiveByEveryWordThatProceedethFromHIM)Hun[>]:)]

Hannah,

My post wasn't intended as an insult.  I was just wondering about your ar15.com name.

In regards to that "old time religion", remember that the missionary Boniface cut down the great oak of Wotan.  After the tree crashed to the ground, the Germanic tribes headed down to the river to be baptized.  [;)]

I broke Schnert's First Commandment "Thou shall not argue about religion on the internet."  Mea culpa.  I'll never violate that self-imposed dictum again.

ar15.com is one of those places where you can discuss and laugh about the oddest things.  However there are two topics that will get you into trouble:

1 - The hit and miss quality of Olympic Arms products, and

2 - religion.

Religion (no matter the flavor)is like alcohol: A little is healthy, but the more you absorb, the more you cannot think or see clearly.

Just my .02

Tyler

I have started my own religion, it is called [b][i]FIGHT CLUB[/b][/i].

Silly legend, or worse, pretty lie. Judeo-Christianity, in one form or other, _never_ did Germany any good; in fact, millions died because of it.

Somebody asked "Well, if you're not Christian, what do _you_ base your ethics on?" Are you trying to say if it wasn't for "the book", you'd be walking around killing people, stealing their stuff, raping their kids? Wait a mnute, now that I'm writing this, people actually did all these things _because_ of "the book".

Ben Franklin also had ties to Francis Dashwood's Hellfire Club.

Religion is good for mind control....

Post from Kar98 -

Nope! People did those things in the past, in spite of 'the book.'

And if you include the New Testament in your definition of 'the book', as I do, then you can say that people did those things in the past in direct opposition or contravention to 'the book.'

Eric The(Careful)Hun[>]:)]

kar98,

Sure it's a legend.  It's part of Boniface's hagiology.  My comment was made tongue in cheek.

As for the basis of ethical systems, natural law ethicists have argued that certain ethical principles are simply a priori (hardwired).  This is evident when we examine the Nicomachean Ethics of Aristotle.  He was a pagan and yet his ethical system is still a philosophical hallmark today.  The persecutor of the infant Church, Ceasar Marcus Aurelius, is known for his well honed ethical system.  Civilizations that have not been exposed to Judeo-Christian teachings all have functional ethical systems.

To attempt to make the claim the all ethical systems are based upon the Decalogue would be a stretch.

Eric,

I've been out pricing TENTS - big tents !!

You're going to the BRC I believe.  By that time I should have most of the business plan together for the "Charismatic Eric T. Hun Traveling Evangelist"  (Coming to your hood soon !)

While it is my intention that you manage all religious matters while I focus on the financial side, I have been in contact with DaMan.
DaMan is proving difficult on the subject of money but I'm believing a deal is possible.
As a show-closer, I'm thinking about DaMan making a nightly appearance as the devil.  What do you think ?

Post from 5subslr5 -

I think DaMan would make an excellent 'show-closer' as the devil!

He's been auditioning for the part for months, if not years, on this Board![:D]

Eric The(AutographedPhotosOfTheLordSalesman)Hun[>]:)]

[size=4]BROTHER HUN'S TRAVELING SALVATION SHOW[/size=4]
([s]Written by[/s] With apologies to Neil Diamond)

Hot [s]August[/s] June night
And the leaves hanging down
And the grass on the ground smelling sweet
Move up the road
To the outside of town
And the sound of that good gospel beat
Sits a ragged tent
Where there ain't no trees
And that gospel group
Telling you and me

It's [s]Love[/s] Hun's
Brother Hun's Traveling Salvation Show
Pack up the babies
Grab the old ladies
Everyone goes
Everyone knows
Brother Hun's show

Room gets suddenly still
And when you'd almost bet
You could hear yourself sweat, he walks in
Eyes black as coal
And when he lifts his face
Every ear in the place is on him

Starting soft and slow
Like a small earthquake
And when he lets go
Half the valley shakes

It's [s]Love, Love[/s] Hun, Hun
Brother Hun's Traveling Salvation Show
Pack up the babies
Grab the old ladies
Everyone goes
Everyone knows
Brother Hun's show

[b]Sermon by Hun[/b]

Take my hand in yours
Walk with me this day
In my heart, I know
I will never stray
Halle, halle, halle, halle, halle, halle, halle
Hallelujah!

It's [s]Love, Love[/s] Hun, Hun
Brother Hun's Traveling Salvation Show
Pack up the babies
Grab the old ladies
Everyone goes
Everyone knows
Brother Hun's show
Amen

1969 Stonebridge Music (ASCAP)

[b]Now isn't [u]that[/u] more like it?[/b]

Eric The(PassTheCollectionPlateQuick,[b]Subsailor![/b])Hun[>]:)]

Just to name some random examples:

the 30yrs War (1618-1648); Karl, killing off thousands of "heathen" Saxons (around 800), the Inquisition, the Crusades, the witch burners (Thou shallst not suffer a witch to live, right?), the Conquistadores, etc ad nauseam...and doesn't it say numerous times "Go thither, and take their land, and slaughter all that is there, man, woman, beast, for you are God's chosen people" in the book.
(On a side note, I read and memorized the book in its German translation by Martin Luther, so if there are some things I quote that are not quite verbatim with the KJV, cut me some slack, will ya ;)
Anyway, I certainly do recognize the will of the Israeli people to live and to find a place to dwell, even if it is in Palestine, but man!, squatting in some country that's already inhibited by others, and claiming it's yours, and rightfully so, because, it was the home of your tribe a couple of thousands year ago, killing everybody that opposes you, killing the families of the "subhuman" offenders, and razingf their houses, that's EXACTLY what Nazi Germany did, and there's no way this can be discussed away.

Btw, and OT in this thread, you are aware that a good part of the Arabs, especially Palestinians, are Christians themselves, aren't you?

Great idea about selling those autographed photos !

I'm thinking of T-shirts, calendars and fans as well.

DaMan wants a cut of all royalties bearing his likeness and I believe this to be fair.

If I'm able to locate him, how about "Velveeta" as a part-time devil ?

I'm not just thinking U.S. but an thinking in more Global terms.  Both Arafat and Sharon will soon be out of a job and should either or both survive I'm also considering both for guest devil appearances ??  (Which we use will of course depend on the audience.)

In the first year you're going to have to make do with only a $500,000 Hun Highway Cruiser but believe we can up-grade to a nice used 727 the second year and after.

AR15.com members should have the first opportunity to be investors and after that first round financing I believe Wall Street can provide all needed capital.

Post from Kar98 -

Oh! Well, now that you put it [u]that[/u] way, what idiot in their right mind is [u]not[/u] advocating the wholesale murder of Jewish men, women, and children, in the most ghastly ways and manners, and burning their holy books and temples and all of their synagogues, and maybe establishing 'camps' for them in the outlying countries, but never within the boundaries of the Fatherland....

Whoops (or 'Oopla' if you're Deutsch), I've just been overcome by a dread feeling of deja vu!

All that I've described has already happened before. In spades. In Europe.

Well Europe had it's great chance to rid the earth of the perfidious Jew and it failed to meet it's goal. Close, but no cigar.

That take's the cake all right!

Hitler, trapped in his Bunker 'neath the Reichskanzlerei, stated that the German people had failed him, that when he died 'all good Germans would be dead.'

I'm hoping that he was mistaken.

Indeed, at the turn of the century it was 30%, but due to, ahem, actions against them by their brother Arabs, they have been whittled down to a mere 10%.

Same in Lebanon, whose Presidents were always Marionite Christians, are now just a little enclave surrounded by their Muslim 'brothers.'

See the story of Beit Jalla for a real story of the treatment of Christian Arabs.

BTW dd you know that Hanan Ashrawi, the main spokeswoman for the Palestinians, is Christian?

And Tariq Aziz, Iraq's foreign minister, is a Christian as well?

These two just don't like to let it show![:D]

Eric The(Realistic)Hun[>]:)]

Yes, that would be the "good part" of the Arabs.

Here's a thought:
What makes you so sure that it is not God's way to punish the Jews for their evil deeds?
Perhaps the Palestinians are just a tool of God's wrath.
Or do you also claim "inside information" on the will and thoughts of God?

Post from Cincinnatus -

LOL. Son, you are smoking this morning![:D]

Eric The(WeJustNeedToFigureOut[u]What[/u]!)Hun[>]:)]

While Hannah is wrong about the viability of the Christian worldview, she is right about one thing - this marriage between Christians and political Israel is a bad thing.

Just as the religious rights foray into domestic politics did NOTHING to change politics but only dimished the credibilty of the Gospel due to its messengers perversion of it (reformation over salvation)....

...thei foray into foreign policy will ONLY serve to further discredit Christ message of salvation to all men, because this marriage of Chritianity and political Israel is inherently racist.

I don't see ANY of you Christian Zionists advocating giving the Gospel of jesus Christ  to the Arabs. Theire salvation is teh ONLY way they can stay alive, and NOT continue in their murderous ways. But all too many of you are NOT ONLY not preaching the Gospel too them , you are defecto advocating their annihilation, sending them to hell.

Some "Gospel" y'all carry. No wonder the world is not interested.


Well said Schnert.

Hannah,

On this, I agree whole-heartedly with you. I believe that since the covenant between God and Israel has never been rescinded, the current troubles are just the latest manifestation of God's displeasure with the Jews. The Old Testament is rife with examples of what happened to Israel when they turned their backs on God. Usually Israel lost their lands and became another nation's slaves.

BTW, was Garandman on vacation? This religious thread went on for 24 hrs. plus without his input.[:D]

I can agree, with reservations.

The veil of the temple was rent by God Himself. Potentially a symbol of the revocation of the contract. Potentially.

Isa. 24 speaks of the "everlasting covenant" being broken. Under contract law, a broken contract is null and void, and no longer binds the offended party.Again, not convicing evidence, but it makes me wonder.

Lastly, there is NO MENTION whatsoever of the contract in the NT. Rather, Christ, and Christ only, as well as a prohibition against "laying up treasures on earth" which is essentially what establishing an Israeli state would be.

Anywho,I think of it more this way. When the Jews crucified Christ, they themselves said "His blood be on us, and [b]on our children." [/b] A foolish thing to say no doubt, but they said it.

If God will exact vengeance for just violating the holiness of His name, I can only imagine what He would do to those who murdered His Son, and then plead "Guilty" to the charges. As would ANY father.






My policy is to let the other side talk as much as possible. They usually hang themselves. [:D]

[b]That's it, we [i]knew[/i] all along that the whole Mideast problem had to be those pesky Christians, didn't we?[/b][rolleyes]
I am an evangelical, born-again Christian, and I will never be ashamed to admit.  So I guess I must be part of the conspiracy.  I must be doing it in my sleep.[:D]  
This thread is more abundant proof of why its such a waste of time to discuss anything of substance in AR15.com
I guess I'll go back over to [b][General Firearm Discussion][/b] now...

Post from Schnert -

So, Schnert and garandman, Daniel the Prophet did [u]not[/u] prophesy some 600 years before the event, of Jesus, the Son of God?

[b]Daniel Chapter 7:[/b]
13   I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him.
14   And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed.

[b]Daniel Chapter 9:[/b]
24   Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.
25   Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the [b]Messiah the Prince[/b] shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.
26   And after threescore and two weeks shall [b]Messiah[/b] be cut off, [u]but not for himself[/u]: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.
27   [b]And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.[/b]

Quick! Somebody better tell just about every Christian scholar since Eusebius, that the foregoing prophecies of Daniel were [u]not[/u] referring to Jesus of Nazareth, then!

I'll let you guys do it, they might smack me up side of the head!

But if you really know what's good for you, neither of you will even breath a word about your views on [b]Revelation[/b] to them!

Eric The(Shhhh!!TheLordHasVeryBigEars!)Hun[>]:)]

For a smot(with a Massachusetts accent) lawyer like yerself, you need an AWFUL lotta things 'splained to you, Lucy. [}:D]

Daniel offers no insights into PRESENT DAY prophecy.

OF COURSE the Book of Daniel made refernce in advance to Christ's day - the ENTIRE OT did.

[rolleyes] See whatcha did now?? Yu MADE me bring the rolley eyes icon out again!!!!!! I WAS doing so good NOT using it.

Hannah,

Your assertion that the Palestinians may be tools of YHWH's vengeance against the Israelites is congruent with Isaiah's notion that the Babylonian captivity of the Jews was an act of divine punishment.  Isaiah understood the Babylonians to be instruments of YHWH's wrath.

Neat.  Theological debate at ar15.com.  Maybe Goatboy needs to start a Theology section?

ErictheHun,

For 2000 years the Church has employed a hermeneutic (method of interpreting the scriptures) that states that prophecy is primarily a radical call to obedience.  The Church has also followed the dictum of the ante-nicean fathers who called us to interpret scripture in light of scripture.  Certainly the Church looks at the major and minor prophets and views the messianic prophecies in light of Christ Jesus. However, it is a stretch to try and use the apocalyptic texts to predict the day and hour of Christ's return.

Martin Luther was once asked what he would do if he learned that the parousia (Christ's return) would come the next day.  He responded tongue in cheek "I'd plant a tree."[;D]  

Garandman, do you have a scriptural basis for that assertion?

The relevant verses that I can find state:

"And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent;"
Matthew 27:51

"And the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom."
Mark 15:38

"And the sun was darkened, and the veil of the temple was rent in the midst."
Luke 23:45

All of these passages use the passive voice to state that the veil "was rent" without specifying who did the rending.  

Lord, [b]garandman[/b], but I do believe that arguing about how many angels can dance on the head of a pin might be the most informative discussion the two of us may ever have together!

Discussing this matter, and every other matter of religious content with you up to this point has been utterly unsatisfying to say the least!

Are you certain that you are not simply a [u]religious[/u] version of DaMan?[:D]

And when I say 'religious' I mean just that!

But getting back on track, so Schnert and garandman, y'all don't believe that Daniel holds any future prophecies of the Lord or His return, eh?

Post from Schnert -

So? Can prophetic scripture not have a dual role, or maybe even many roles?

And when you say 'the Church', I understand you to mean the Roman Catholic Church, am I correct?

And why would the Roman Catholic Church [u]expect[/u] that the writings of Daniel would have any future revelation, value to or impact on the history of Christianity once the vicar of Christ was present and serving the Church on earth? He [u]solely[/u] has the Keys of the Kingdom firmly in his hands, loosing and binding on earth and in Heaven.

What need the Church of a dead prophet from the House of Judah?

As you and garandman have pointed out - [b]all[/b] of Daniel's prophecies had been fulfilled by the time that Christ was born, lived, and died.

[b]Am I right so far?[/b]

Yes, I like your phraseology in that sentence!
The fathers of the church [u]before[/u] the Nicean Council!

Aeneas Sylvius, who afterwards became Pope Pius the Second, 'Verily, before the Council of Nice, [u]some[/u] regard there was unto the Bishops of Rome, although but small.'

Holy men as most of those 'ante-Nicean fathers' undoubtedly were, they are, to the most extent, invisible and unfelt in the later formation of the theology of the Church.

One would suppose that they should be looking, since, after all, their predecessors missed out almost altogether upon the arrival of the Messiah the first time!

- continued -

Why would you think any prophecy would likely predict the day and hour of Christ's return, when even He claimed no such knowledge!

But the day of Christ's revelation to the people [u]was[/u] ordained, well in advance.

The fact that He would ride into the Holy City, sitting upon the colt of a donkey that had never been ridden was foretold.

The fact that He would be greeted by worshippers with the salutation 'Hoshanah' (or more commonly, 'Hosanna', meaning 'Lord Save Us'), was predicted well in advance.

Jesus even made mention of the fact of this prediction when, demanded by the scribes and Pharisees to order the people to stop the shouts and acclamations of 'Hoshanah', Jesus rebuked them by saying that the very stones would take up the people's cries - in other words, the day of His revelation as the Messiah had come, and nothing the scribed, the Pharisees, the priests or the people could do, would stop it!

In the thinking of those well-versed in the Old Testament in the days of Christ, only the 'King' was permitted the privilege of riding into the Holy City. Everyone else made their entrance on foot.

Even to this day, the most orthodox Jews will get off at the bus stop outside of Jerusalem's city limits and walk into the City, knowing that only their King is permitted the right of riding into the City.

He will ride into that City one bright and glorious day.

And He will enter the City through the Golden Gate on the Eastern Wall of the City. It is [u]His[/u] Gate, after all.

A view of 'His' Gate from the Mount of Olives:
[img]http://camel2.conncoll.edu/academics/departments/relstudies/290/judaism/GoldenGate2[/img]

You will note that the entrance is blocked by large stones. The Muslims even established a cemetery in front of the Gate to prevent any, er, 'holy' person from entering!

Martin Luther was once asked what he would do if he learned that the parousia (Christ's return) would come the next day. He responded tongue in cheek "I'd plant a tree."

View Quote

Yes, that Martin Luther was quite a card![:D]

But, now, tell me this [b]Schnert[/b] and [b]garandman[/b], were there no future events predicted by Daniel's prophecies past the birth and death of the Messiah?

Inquiring Christian Huns want to know![:D]

Eric The(GodFreedDanielInTheLionsDen-WCFields)Hun[>]:)]

[:D]

BRIAN: Are you the Judean People's Front?

REG: Fuck off!

BRIAN: What?

REG: Judean People's Front. We're the People's Front of Judea! Judean People's Front. Cawk.

FRANCIS: Wankers.

BRIAN: Can I... join your group?

REG: No. Piss off.

BRIAN: I didn't want to sell this stuff. It's only a job. I hate the Romans as much as anybody.

PEOPLE'S FRONT OF JUDEA: Shhhh. Shhhh. Shhh. Shh. Shhhh.

REG: Stumm.

JUDITH: Are you sure?

BRIAN: Oh, dead sure. I hate the Romans already.

REG: Listen. If you wanted to join the P.F.J., you'd have to really hate the Romans.

BRIAN: I do!

REG: Oh, yeah? How much?

BRIAN: A lot!

REG: Right. You're in. Listen. The only people we hate more than the Romans are the fucking Judean People's Front.

P.F.J.: Yeah...

JUDITH: Splitters.

P.F.J.: Splitters...

FRANCIS: And the Judean Popular People's Front.

P.F.J.: Yeah. Oh, yeah. Splitters. Splitters...

LORETTA: And the People's Front of Judea.

P.F.J.: Yeah. Splitters. Splitters...

REG: What?

LORETTA: The People's Front of Judea. Splitters.

REG: We're the People's Front of Judea!

LORETTA: Oh. I thought we were the Popular Front.

REG: People's Front! C-huh.

FRANCIS: Whatever happened to the Popular Front, Reg?

REG: He's over there.

P.F.J.: Splitter!

GOLIATH: pant pant pant Ooh. Ooh. I-- I think I'm about to have a... cardiac arrest. Ooh. Ooh.

SPECTATOR: Absolutely dreadful. Hmm.

CROWD: cheering

REG: Yes, brother! Ha ha. What's your name?

BRIAN: Brian. Brian Cohen.

REG: We may have a little job for you, Brian.

Eric, for once a sincere, non-joke and non-pyrotechnic question or two.

I'm sure you realize I have little knowledge of the Bible.  (By the time I was about twelve years old the Southern Baptist had already explained the various and assorted reasons I was bound for hell.  Best I could tell everyone I knew was headed that way too.  I saw no reason for further enlightenment.)
Now:

1)  Jesus was Jewish
2)  Jesus was a Rabbi  (Never mind that according to Jewish Law he couldn't have been a Rabbi unless married.)
3)  Jesus was the Son of God and came to save us all.
4)  Christians await the second coming of Jesus.
5)  Jews await the first coming of the Messiah.

If I've got the above half way correct, why didn't the Jews recognize Jesus as the Messiah the first time he was here ?

Is the Messiah the Jews await and Jesus whose second coming Christians await the same ??

[?]

There once was a rabbi from Peru
Who was vainly attempting to screw.
His wife said Oy Vay,
If you keep on this way,
the Messiah will come before you.