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Actually, you are the very distilled essence of naivety.  It's core.

We currently have an open border.  We currently have maybe 15 million illegal immigrants in this country.

There exists no viable solution to deport 15 million or more people.  None.

So your solution is to instead do nothing and poo-poo the idea of giving most of them legal _non voting_ status?

Brilliant!  Status quo for the win.

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Holy fucking putting words in someone else mouth batman.

That's exactly what I said, "status quo."  

Is maroon your favorite color?

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Seems accurate enough.

Especially on immigration. We need the 'worker bees' but haven't adequately provided enough reform in the way of work visas.

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What is your proposal then?  Do you have a way to deport 8-20 million people that won't cost trillions of dollars and take decades?

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2. We were wrong on immigration reform and it was a horrendous mistake for conservatives to oppose immigration reform and amnesty for illegals. Today the Democrats have undefeatable super majorities in both houses of Congress and they control the White House. President Obama has promised the immigration reform and amnesty are on his priority list for this year and passage of whatever plan he has in mind is a certainty. The Democrats will now win the loyalty of 30,000,000 new voters they are about to create and ensure majorities in ever national election for the foreseeable future.

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Actually, I would still want to kick them in the teeth.

I know enough people who came here legally, from MUCH farther away in MUCH worse conditions.  If they can do it, so can Mexicans.  Fuck em if they can't follow the law.
 

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1. If President Bush is demonized by history then it will not be for Iraq and Afghanistan. Iraq and Afghanistan no longer exist. They have been completely forgotten by the populace, the media and the government. They served their purpose of destroying Bush and the Republicans and now they are no longer important. If President Bush is demonized by history then it will be for TARP and the other instances of government intermixing with the "private sector" which opened the door for Obama to implement the socialist revolution which is now in full swing.

History won't demonize him for that, although it should

2. We were wrong on immigration reform and it was a horrendous mistake for conservatives to oppose immigration reform and amnesty for illegals. Illegals who committed crimes other than illegally entering the country would have been caught and prosecuted as they are now, as they have been, just as with any other criminal. Had immigration reform moved forward under Bush and the Republican congress then there would have eventually been funding for securing the border (which had already been approved), at least there would have been a chance. The worst tragedy is that the Republicans lost any chance of winning the loyalty of the Mexicans who would have become voters if immigration reform and amnesty had passed. In truth, the Mexicans Immigrants are natural allies for the Republican party. They believe in family values, they are hard working, they are socially conservative and they like guns. The Republicans listened to conservative voters who demanded that amnesty and immigration reform be defeated, demanded that border security come first and demanded that the immigration problem be solved by deportation. Despite the Republicans caving to their voter's demands, conservative voters stayed home on election day in November 2006 and allowed the Democrats to use their propaganda against Iraq to destroy the Republican majorities in both houses of Congress. Today the Democrats have undefeatable super majorities in both houses of Congress and they control the White House. President Obama has promised the immigration reform and amnesty are on his priority list for this year and passage of whatever plan he has in mind is a certainty. The Democrats will now win the loyalty of 30,000,000 new voters they are about to create and ensure majorities in ever national election for the foreseeable future. Given the populations of illegal aliens in states like Texas, Arizona and Oklahoma, the Democrats may even be able to turn the tide in these states to the left and get Democrats to unseat traditionally conservative state governments. It was stupid and shortsighted to opposed immigration reform and amnesty, and now we will lose everything. Shoulda, Coulda, Woulda.

I agree, and said as much at the time

3. The payout of bonuses to AIG executives or ANY executive from any company that received TARP funding was a HUGE mistake, and the line that they had to be paid due to contractual obligations which would have resulted in court battles if violated is a bald faced lie. Why? Because no jury anywhere in this country would have awarded a single plug nickel to any executive of any company that would have gone bankrupt if not for TARP funding. The American people wanted these companies to go bankrupt and the anger at the execs was damn near at pitchfork and torches levels. These execs were paid their bonuses as a result of cronyism between government and the "private sector".

Completely wrong.  Lots of companies were forced to take bailout money.  I will not support the government forcing companies to take money, and then using it as an excuse to dictate salaries.

4. The corporations in the so-called "private sector" are being run by gangs of professional thieves who rape their companies, rob their employees, deceive their investors and pillage the national treasury. The past 10 years has been an almost non-stop parade of instances of corporate fraud, embezzlement, bailouts and robbery. K-mart, Enron, MCI Worldcom, Arthur Andersen, Tyco, AIG, Microsoft and on and on. They are degreed gangsters and they exercise the same tactics as the freakin' mafia. They loan themselves money that they never repay while driving the company into the ground (K-Mart), the use extortion and threats to stop out competition (Microsoft), they extort their own employees (Enron) and they make up fraudulent records to try and throw everyone off of the trail (take your pick). Capitalism is dead, what is going on in Corporate America is nothing short of organized crime.

You greatly overstate the problems.  With the amount of companies in the US, I'd say the numbers of scandals are quite low.

5. There is no such thing as a "private sector" in this country and it has not existed for a very long time. The so-called "private sector" has been interwoven with government for decades. The system of lobbying, cronyism, bribery, regulation and legislation have made corporate interests and the interests of politicians one and the same. For proof just look to the bankruptcy reform act (a bill law passed by the congress despite popular objection because the credit card companies lobbied for it very, very hard during the height of the bankruptcy wave from 2000-2006) or the Chrysler and GM bankruptcy dealership closings (dealers with political allies getting to keep their businesses, dealers belonging to political enemies of the current regime being closed without appeal, explanation or recourse).

So?

6. The problems in point number 5 did not begin with the Obama Administration.

No, but he is making it worse.

7. Despite all of the unwavering support for the military on this board and in this country, standing armies are still a threat to liberty. Armies obey the orders of those who command the army and our military is no different. If there were to ever be a move by the people against the government, or conversely a move by the government against the people then I have no doubt that the US military would side with the government. For proof, one only needs to look to New Orleans. Oklahoma National Guard along with out of state police departments sent to help with the Katrina cleanup effort and to restore order did confiscate weapons from law abiding civilians without anything more than an order from the chief of police to do so. Oklahoma National Guardsmen (not even PROFESSIONAL soldiers, but "Citizen Soldiers") even admitted to cameras for ABC news that they were primed to shoot and kill Americans on the streets of New Orleans if they refused to cooperate with or resisted the National Guard. If you want proof of this then just ask our very own Bama-Shooter. He was there, he saw it with his own eyes and he has confirmed this to have been the case on several occasions. I support our troops when they are defending our freedoms overseas and fighting to protect our security from our enemies, but I remain skeptical about the willingness of the average American soldier to choose loyalty to the people of this nation over loyalty to the government of this nation.

You went off the deep end on this one.  You expect the Guard not to shoot back if they are being fired upon?  You say you support them when they are fighting overseas, why?  If it ever gets to the point where the US Military will be used against Americans, its way too late to do anything about it anyway.  

Fuck it, I'll continue.  The problem with this whole "I don't think the average American soldier would refuse orders" is that its not the average soldier who would be getting orders.  You're right, a 18yo is most likely going to say "aye Sir."  But orders don't come strait from the President to a PVT.  Fucking Katrina was a perfect example of that, with a General explicitly stating that his troops would NOT confiscate weapons.  But none of the "the military is out to get us" crazies ever mention that.

They say that whenever you speak the truth you should have one foot in a stirrup. Flame suit on!

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FINALLY!

Someone who thinks I'm full of shit!

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What is your proposal then?  Do you have a way to deport 8-20 million people that won't cost trillions of dollars and take decades?

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1. If President Bush is demonized by history then it will not be for Iraq and Afghanistan. Iraq and Afghanistan no longer exist. They have been completely forgotten by the populace, the media and the government. They served their purpose of destroying Bush and the Republicans and now they are no longer important. If President Bush is demonized by history then it will be for TARP and the other instances of government intermixing with the "private sector" which opened the door for Obama to implement the socialist revolution which is now in full swing.
Iraq and Afghanistan still exist, conservatives talk about them everyday. The liberals just want us to forget the struggle continues so Obama won't have to take responsibility for American lives lost, he is the Messiah, after all. - "head in the sand, pretend it's not there and it will go away" mentality. Ellis Henican, a liberal reporter, defended the media's lack of coverage of the terrorist attack committed on American soil, against American soldiers, in Little Rock, by a radical Muslim extremist, by saying it wasn't "morally relevant". Do you personally feel that terrorist attacks on US soil aren't relevant?
Bush can't be legitimately demonized for actions in Iraq and Afghanistan, what we did there was sacrifice American lives to remove violent, despotic regimes and help build representative governments elected by the people....and liberals despise him for it.
You're correct about TARP. Bush set the stage for Obama to have the capital necessary to deal with our economic situation, but instead he turned it into his own personal checkbook.

I think it's safe to say Obama's legacy will make Bush look like a saint.
2. We were wrong on immigration reform and it was a horrendous mistake for conservatives to oppose immigration reform and amnesty for illegals. Illegals who committed crimes other than illegally entering the country would have been caught and prosecuted as they are now, as they have been, just as with any other criminal. Had immigration reform moved forward under Bush and the Republican congress then there would have eventually been funding for securing the border (which had already been approved), at least there would have been a chance. The worst tragedy is that the Republicans lost any chance of winning the loyalty of the Mexicans who would have become voters if immigration reform and amnesty had passed. In truth, the Mexicans Immigrants are natural allies for the Republican party. They believe in family values, they are hard working, they are socially conservative and they like guns. The Republicans listened to conservative voters who demanded that amnesty and immigration reform be defeated, demanded that border security come first and demanded that the immigration problem be solved by deportation. Despite the Republicans caving to their voter's demands, conservative voters stayed home on election day in November 2006 and allowed the Democrats to use their propaganda against Iraq to destroy the Republican majorities in both houses of Congress. Today the Democrats have undefeatable super majorities in both houses of Congress and they control the White House. President Obama has promised the immigration reform and amnesty are on his priority list for this year and passage of whatever plan he has in mind is a certainty. The Democrats will now win the loyalty of 30,000,000 new voters they are about to create and ensure majorities in ever national election for the foreseeable future. Given the populations of illegal aliens in states like Texas, Arizona and Oklahoma, the Democrats may even be able to turn the tide in these states to the left and get Democrats to unseat traditionally conservative state governments. It was stupid and shortsighted to opposed immigration reform and amnesty, and now we will lose everything. Shoulda, Coulda, Woulda.
The hispanic community will never rally around Republicans, no matter what they do. The Democrats have put far too much energy into falsely convincing minorities that Republicans are racist. Just so you're aware of it, 80% of Congressional Democrats voted against the Civil Rights Act of 1964. It was passed with the Republican vote.
I agree that we need immigration reform, but we have a responsibility to control the flow of immigrants into this country. We can't handle unlimited immigration and in light of 9/11, our security depends on it. Politically, amnesty would have helped Bush, but when the Democrats are waiving driver's licenses, health insurance, free cookies, and welfare in the air as a promise to hispanics, nothing he could do would have been enough. Just by changing the title from "illegal alien" to "undocumented worker" doesn't suddenly make breaching our borders legal.

3. The payout of bonuses to AIG executives or ANY executive from any company that received TARP funding was a HUGE mistake, and the line that they had to be paid due to contractual obligations which would have resulted in court battles if violated is a bald faced lie. Why? Because no jury anywhere in this country would have awarded a single plug nickel to any executive of any company that would have gone bankrupt if not for TARP funding. The American people wanted these companies to go bankrupt and the anger at the execs was damn near at pitchfork and torches levels. These execs were paid their bonuses as a result of cronyism between government and the "private sector".
History lesson-The bonuses were originally stripped away in the Stimulus Bill. Tim Geithner and Chris Dodd have both acknowledged their responsibility for keeping the bonuses for AIG. Dodd denied involvement, then said "Yeah, I lied. Geithner asked me to do it". Geithner denied involvement, then said "Yeah, I lied. I asked Dodd to keep the bonuses in the Stimulus Bill, but at the direction of the White House". Who's the guy running the White House? I think his name is Barry?

4. The corporations in the so-called "private sector" are being run by gangs of professional thieves who rape their companies, rob their employees, deceive their investors and pillage the national treasury. The past 10 years has been an almost non-stop parade of instances of corporate fraud, embezzlement, bailouts and robbery. K-mart, Enron, MCI Worldcom, Arthur Andersen, Tyco, AIG, Microsoft and on and on. They are degreed gangsters and they exercise the same tactics as the freakin' mafia. They loan themselves money that they never repay while driving the company into the ground (K-Mart), the use extortion and threats to stop out competition (Microsoft), they extort their own employees (Enron) and they make up fraudulent records to try and throw everyone off of the trail (take your pick). Capitalism is dead, what is going on in Corporate America is nothing short of organized crime.
True, true true. But something we learned from the "real" great depression was the need to regulate, monitor, and only when necessary, intervene. We got too comfortable with the success of capitalism so BJ Clinton decided to deregulate and let it ride. Greed and corruption in all aspects of business and government led to what we have now. The solution is to bring back some of the regulation and monitoring, not deconstruct our entire society.

5. There is no such thing as a "private sector" in this country and it has not existed for a very long time. The so-called "private sector" has been interwoven with government for decades. The system of lobbying, cronyism, bribery, regulation and legislation have made corporate interests and the interests of politicians one and the same. For proof just look to the bankruptcy reform act (a bill law passed by the congress despite popular objection because the credit card companies lobbied for it very, very hard during the height of the bankruptcy wave from 2000-2006) or the Chrysler and GM bankruptcy dealership closings (dealers with political allies getting to keep their businesses, dealers belonging to political enemies of the current regime being closed without appeal, explanation or recourse).
Private sector doesn't just include large businesses, the country was built on the backs of the small businessman, but you make a valid point

6. The problems in point number 5 did not begin with the Obama Administration.
I couldn't agree with you more

7. Despite all of the unwavering support for the military on this board and in this country, standing armies are still a threat to liberty. Armies obey the orders of those who command the army and our military is no different. If there were to ever be a move by the people against the government, or conversely a move by the government against the people then I have no doubt that the US military would side with the government. For proof, one only needs to look to New Orleans. Oklahoma National Guard along with out of state police departments sent to help with the Katrina cleanup effort and to restore order did confiscate weapons from law abiding civilians without anything more than an order from the chief of police to do so. Oklahoma National Guardsmen (not even PROFESSIONAL soldiers, but "Citizen Soldiers") even admitted to cameras for ABC news that they were primed to shoot and kill Americans on the streets of New Orleans if they refused to cooperate with or resisted the National Guard. If you want proof of this then just ask our very own Bama-Shooter. He was there, he saw it with his own eyes and he has confirmed this to have been the case on several occasions. I support our troops when they are defending our freedoms overseas and fighting to protect our security from our enemies, but I remain skeptical about the willingness of the average American soldier to choose loyalty to the people of this nation over loyalty to the government of this nation.
Should be interesting to see how that would pan out. It's still illegal for Federal Troops to conduct law enforcement duties within our borders, that's why "State" controlled NG is used, but at the same time we're seeing things happen under Obama we never thought we would....a President who despises our country for one..."


They say that whenever you speak the truth you should have one foot in a stirrup. Flame suit on!

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Delete #2 and you're good to go.

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It is not impossible to make a valid argument that amnesty/immigration reform would have backfired on the Republicans. However, not passing it has given the Democrats a golden opportunity to do so and they will absolutely do so. They will capitalize on the opportunity and they will win the loyalty of the entire Latino community for decades to come. That will give them the voting block that they need to secure their power for the foreseeable future.

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Tag to read all of that later.

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I don't have a problem with immigration. But there's only so much land, and so many jobs. Once we've taken care of our own then we can worry about providing homes and work for those who have already destroyed their own country.  

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What is your proposal then?  Do you have a way to deport 8-20 million people that won't cost trillions of dollars and take decades?

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4. The corporations in the so-called "private sector" are being run by gangs of professional thieves who rape their companies, rob their employees, deceive their investors and pillage the national treasury. The past 10 years has been an almost non-stop parade of instances of corporate fraud, embezzlement, bailouts and robbery. K-mart, Enron, MCI Worldcom, Arthur Andersen, Tyco, AIG, Microsoft and on and on. They are degreed gangsters and they exercise the same tactics as the freakin' mafia. They loan themselves money that they never repay while driving the company into the ground (K-Mart), the use extortion and threats to stop out competition (Microsoft), they extort their own employees (Enron) and they make up fraudulent records to try and throw everyone off of the trail (take your pick). Capitalism is dead, what is going on in Corporate America is nothing short of organized crime.

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Yep, Motown_Steve is off his meds.
http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=1&f=5&t=887307&page=3

2. We were wrong on immigration reform and it was a horrendous mistake for conservatives to oppose immigration reform and amnesty for illegals. Illegals who committed crimes other than illegally entering the country would have been caught and prosecuted as they are now, as they have been, just as with any other criminal. Had immigration reform moved forward under Bush and the Republican congress then there would have eventually been funding for securing the border (which had already been approved), at least there would have been a chance. The worst tragedy is that the Republicans lost any chance of winning the loyalty of the Mexicans who would have become voters if immigration reform and amnesty had passed. In truth, the Mexicans Immigrants are natural allies for the Republican party. They believe in family values, they are hard working, they are socially conservative and they like guns. The Republicans listened to conservative voters who demanded that amnesty and immigration reform be defeated, demanded that border security come first and demanded that the immigration problem be solved by deportation. Despite the Republicans caving to their voter's demands, conservative voters stayed home on election day in November 2006 and allowed the Democrats to use their propaganda against Iraq to destroy the Republican majorities in both houses of Congress. Today the Democrats have undefeatable super majorities in both houses of Congress and they control the White House. President Obama has promised the immigration reform and amnesty are on his priority list for this year and passage of whatever plan he has in mind is a certainty. The Democrats will now win the loyalty of 30,000,000 new voters they are about to create and ensure majorities in ever national election for the foreseeable future. Given the populations of illegal aliens in states like Texas, Arizona and Oklahoma, the Democrats may even be able to turn the tide in these states to the left and get Democrats to unseat traditionally conservative state governments. It was stupid and shortsighted to opposed immigration reform and amnesty, and now we will lose everything. Shoulda, Coulda, Woulda.

2. We were wrong on immigration reform and it was a horrendous mistake for conservatives to oppose immigration reform and amnesty for illegals.

1. If President Bush is demonized by history then it will not be for Iraq and Afghanistan. Iraq and Afghanistan no longer exist. They have been completely forgotten by the populace, the media and the government. They served their purpose of destroying Bush and the Republicans and now they are no longer important. If President Bush is demonized by history then it will be for TARP and the other instances of government intermixing with the "private sector" which opened the door for Obama to implement the socialist revolution which is now in full swing.

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Cliff notes?  

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motown_steve, I can't remember, were you always a Paulbot or are you a recent convert?

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The republicans really messed things up

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You lost me there.  Coming to the United States is NOT a universal entitlement.  FAIL.

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Once again, Steve demonstrates that he buys the media bullshit hook, line, and sinker.

You might want to be careful, Obama may want to replace Biden with you in the next election!

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1. If President Bush is demonized by history then it will not be for Iraq and Afghanistan. Iraq and Afghanistan no longer exist. They have been completely forgotten by the populace, the media and the government. They served their purpose of destroying Bush and the Republicans and now they are no longer important. If President Bush is demonized by history then it will be for TARP and the other instances of government intermixing with the "private sector" which opened the door for Obama to implement the socialist revolution which is now in full swing.

2. We were wrong on immigration reform and it was a horrendous mistake for conservatives to oppose immigration reform and amnesty for illegals. Illegals who committed crimes other than illegally entering the country would have been caught and prosecuted as they are now, as they have been, just as with any other criminal. Had immigration reform moved forward under Bush and the Republican congress then there would have eventually been funding for securing the border (which had already been approved), at least there would have been a chance. The worst tragedy is that the Republicans lost any chance of winning the loyalty of the Mexicans who would have become voters if immigration reform and amnesty had passed. In truth, the Mexicans Immigrants are natural allies for the Republican party. They believe in family values, they are hard working, they are socially conservative and they like guns. The Republicans listened to conservative voters who demanded that amnesty and immigration reform be defeated, demanded that border security come first and demanded that the immigration problem be solved by deportation. Despite the Republicans caving to their voter's demands, conservative voters stayed home on election day in November 2006 and allowed the Democrats to use their propaganda against Iraq to destroy the Republican majorities in both houses of Congress. Today the Democrats have undefeatable super majorities in both houses of Congress and they control the White House. President Obama has promised the immigration reform and amnesty are on his priority list for this year and passage of whatever plan he has in mind is a certainty. The Democrats will now win the loyalty of 30,000,000 new voters they are about to create and ensure majorities in ever national election for the foreseeable future. Given the populations of illegal aliens in states like Texas, Arizona and Oklahoma, the Democrats may even be able to turn the tide in these states to the left and get Democrats to unseat traditionally conservative state governments. It was stupid and shortsighted to opposed immigration reform and amnesty, and now we will lose everything. Shoulda, Coulda, Woulda.

3. The payout of bonuses to AIG executives or ANY executive from any company that received TARP funding was a HUGE mistake, and the line that they had to be paid due to contractual obligations which would have resulted in court battles if violated is a bald faced lie. Why? Because no jury anywhere in this country would have awarded a single plug nickel to any executive of any company that would have gone bankrupt if not for TARP funding. The American people wanted these companies to go bankrupt and the anger at the execs was damn near at pitchfork and torches levels. These execs were paid their bonuses as a result of cronyism between government and the "private sector".

4. The corporations in the so-called "private sector" are being run by gangs of professional thieves who rape their companies, rob their employees, deceive their investors and pillage the national treasury. The past 10 years has been an almost non-stop parade of instances of corporate fraud, embezzlement, bailouts and robbery. K-mart, Enron, MCI Worldcom, Arthur Andersen, Tyco, AIG, Microsoft and on and on. They are degreed gangsters and they exercise the same tactics as the freakin' mafia. They loan themselves money that they never repay while driving the company into the ground (K-Mart), the use extortion and threats to stop out competition (Microsoft), they extort their own employees (Enron) and they make up fraudulent records to try and throw everyone off of the trail (take your pick). Capitalism is dead, what is going on in Corporate America is nothing short of organized crime.

5. There is no such thing as a "private sector" in this country and it has not existed for a very long time. The so-called "private sector" has been interwoven with government for decades. The system of lobbying, cronyism, bribery, regulation and legislation have made corporate interests and the interests of politicians one and the same. For proof just look to the bankruptcy reform act (a bill law passed by the congress despite popular objection because the credit card companies lobbied for it very, very hard during the height of the bankruptcy wave from 2000-2006) or the Chrysler and GM bankruptcy dealership closings (dealers with political allies getting to keep their businesses, dealers belonging to political enemies of the current regime being closed without appeal, explanation or recourse).

6. The problems in point number 5 did not begin with the Obama Administration.

7. Despite all of the unwavering support for the military on this board and in this country, standing armies are still a threat to liberty. Armies obey the orders of those who command the army and our military is no different. If there were to ever be a move by the people against the government, or conversely a move by the government against the people then I have no doubt that the US military would side with the government. For proof, one only needs to look to New Orleans. Oklahoma National Guard along with out of state police departments sent to help with the Katrina cleanup effort and to restore order did confiscate weapons from law abiding civilians without anything more than an order from the chief of police to do so. Oklahoma National Guardsmen (not even PROFESSIONAL soldiers, but "Citizen Soldiers") even admitted to cameras for ABC news that they were primed to shoot and kill Americans on the streets of New Orleans if they refused to cooperate with or resisted the National Guard. If you want proof of this then just ask our very own Bama-Shooter. He was there, he saw it with his own eyes and he has confirmed this to have been the case on several occasions. I support our troops when they are defending our freedoms overseas and fighting to protect our security from our enemies, but I remain skeptical about the willingness of the average American soldier to choose loyalty to the people of this nation over loyalty to the government of this nation.

They say that whenever you speak the truth you should have one foot in a stirrup. Flame suit on!

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