How did our Great Grandparents and Grandparents do it, but our own parents can't? - Page 2

[ARCHIVED THREAD] - How did our Great Grandparents and Grandparents do it, but our own parents can't? (Page 2 of 3)

Posted: 4/25/2011 3:33:47 AM EDT

[#1]

Quoted:

Quoted:
You could easily now if you want to. People make more now.

The median household income in 1950 was $3319. In 2010 dollars that is $29,725.

The median household income in 2009 was $49,777. But I know the naysayers will say that is 2 earner. So we will use the median for a single full time earner, which was
$36,837 in 2009. $36,800 is higher than $29,700. And the 1950 income has the 2 earner (which there were some of) included in it.

In 1950 the average house size was 1100 sq ft. With 4-8 people living in it.

They had one car.

They had one telephone.

They had maybe one TV.

They had 1, maybe 2, radios.

They did NOT have...

A dryer

An air conditioner

A microwave

A dishwasher

A computer

Internet

Cable TV

DVD player

MP3 player

A cell phone, and most definately not one for each person

If you want to live 1950s style it would be EASY to support a family of 4-6 on $36,000.

But we want the greater luxury avaliable to us now, which was not avaliable to our parents and grandparents.

Move to an 1100 sq ft house. Dump the cell phone, cable, any other monthly expenses other than basic phone, sell your extra car, all your electronics, dryer, and microwave and don't run your air conditioner or dishwasher at all.

See how much money you will have extra every month.

Exactly . The luxury items alone that we get to keep up with the Jonses are ridiculous . Add in the landscaper's fees , gym memberships , sat radio subscription , homeowners association fees , security monitoring at home , On Star subscription , hair and nail salons , etc, etc

I own my grandparents 1000 sq. foot house, still have just the one tv, no cable. We do have internet and one cell phone. My wife has no job outside the home and my income is pretty
much in line with the avg. We're doing pretty well, no real financial struggles, but I'm not planning to retire in this lifetime anyhow.

Posted: 4/25/2011 3:46:24 AM EDT

[#2]

Quoted:

Quoted:
I firmly believe that the difference isn't so much in the amount of money made, but how the money is/was spent. Compare your grandparents spending habits with those of modern society, and the difference is astonishing. Take my grandfather for instance. He never bought anything he couldn't pay for outright. Period. If he couldn't afford it, he made do without it. Its a concept completely lost on our current generation, who pay for virtually everything on credit. Food, gas, TV's, its all bought on credit. No one seems to have the discipline anymore to control their spending. Debt, just a couple of generations ago, had a negative stigma attached to it to the point that it would bring shame to a family. Now, its accepted as the norm. You have credit card debts. School debts. Car loans, home mortgages, home equity loans, etc, etc, etc. No one seems to care that they struggle at the brink of bankruptcy month to month, just as long as they have their flat screen TV's and 200 channels.

THIS!!!

Rampant consumerism. This keeping up with the Jones' crap.

Just an off hand question. How many people do you know, that had a perfectly functional TV that was stereo and had sat/cable capabilities that just "had" to go out and buy a flat screen TV...or HDTV, ad nauseum.

We don't use something until it is not working or repairable anymore. If it is broke, we buy another one....even if the first one wasn't paid for yet (increase in personal debt even farther).

We don't keep up with anyone but ourselves at my house. We use things until they are used up. I fix things myself as much as I can.
We don't generally buy crap just to have it. There used to be some lamenting from my kids about how so-in-so has this or that
and we didn't, and I would say "tough. What do you have that they don't." "i don't know, what?" "You have what you need ,
some things that are nice to have, but most important you have two parents that love you and are trying to show you how to grow up
and be self-sufficient, parents that know the true value of a person isn't what they own, it's how they live and treat their family and the people
around them, to do the right thing especially when it's hard, and to account for yourself in everything." So, I'm a hard-ass.

Posted: 4/25/2011 3:49:58 AM EDT

[#3]

Quoted:
As much as I hate consumerism, I wouldn't want to live my father's childhood, let alone my grandfather's. My dad had a lot of hopes and dreams which were never realized, something as seemingly simple as joining the Boy Scouts was completely out of his reach because his family couldn't afford the uniform, and not for a lack of my grandfather's trying. When you take off the rose colored glasses, the past is often not as great as one likes to think of it, although there certainly were some good aspects.

There's a balance to be found between the (literally) dirt poor generation of our grandparents and the keeping up with the Jonses generation of our parents.

The Scouts helped with that in my troop. We didn't have the money to buy uniforms, and the troop I joined kept the old ones as scouts
outgrew them, to give to other scouts who could not afford them. That's how I got to be a scout, and I learned a valuable lesson
in good will toward others and helping those in need, and not looking down on the less fortunate.

Posted: 4/25/2011 4:01:54 AM EDT

[#4]

Quoted:
Inflation. Dollar devaluation. You really should look into it.

To get started, figure out how many (silver) dollars your grandfather earned per year.

Then multiply by $47 (or whatever the going rate is in the morning- (you are going to need to check)

$47 X (grandfathers annual income) = ?????? Thats how much you need to be making to maintain parity. Are you?

Do the same with Oil, Gold, or other commodities. It's fun, educational, and terrifying.

Run the same test in 1980 and you will get the same result. Silver is a bubble if there ever was one.

Posted: 4/25/2011 4:05:32 AM EDT

[#5]

These guys didn't help:

As for our grandparents not having X, it's because (a) those items weren't around back then, and (b) if they were, they were considered luxuries because they were prohibitively expensive. I'm not a balls to the wall globalist but I'm not a protectionist either. The more countries a company can be in, the larger the market, the cheaper and better the product, etc etc. Look at AR-15s in the past 5 years. It's one of the most competitive industries in the US. Quality has gotten better, for sure.

Posted: 4/25/2011 4:11:52 AM EDT

[#6]

How many small farms or family owned farms were around back then?

How many families had,at least,a garden?

How many families had,at least,some chickens?

ETC,ETC...

Where did people go to buy food,other than what they grew or raised themselves?

I think MUCH was lost due to the death of "real" farmers Markets....

Just as MUCH will be lost in the future, due to the seemingly inevitable death of small businesses...

We have become DEPENDENT,instead of self reliant... IMO (I'm not talking about living on the doll)

Posted: 4/25/2011 4:15:19 AM EDT

[#7]

Quoted:

Congratulations, you've won the Idiotic Misogynistic Drivel Award of the day, with a secondary honor of Baseless Moral Indignation Rambling. The prize? A spot on my ignore list.

Hit too close to home, did he?

Posted: 4/25/2011 4:16:10 AM EDT

[#8]

The older generation lived depression era values. They didn't borrow money. If they took a mortgage, it was on a small modest home and they paid it off as fast as possible. If they didn't have cash, they didn't buy it. Hell, myu grnadfather walked to work from the early 1940's until he bought his first car in 1969.

The later generation doesn't have a pot to piss in. They borrow for everything and want it now. There are two cars in the driveway of that 3500 sq ft four bedm four bath home but they have negative net worth. And I'm not bailing them ouit.

Posted: 4/25/2011 4:30:30 AM EDT

[#9]

The answer is a bit complex.

1. We had a party line telephone. Think about the cost of having multiple lines today and cell phones for everyone.
2. We had the first tv on the block. A friend died last year. He had 6 televisions in his trailer home. I have 1 tv and haven't watched it for 15 years - no reception and no cable.
3. I remember that we had one cheap car in the family. My mother was probably in her 40s before she had a car.
4. The vacations were camping and driving. My mother never made it to Europe.
5. Before you glorify the old days, my dad drove a chicken truck in the 1930s. My mother wore cardboard in the bottoms of her shoes and ate bacon grease sandwiches. She went to work at age 12.

My dad died a few years ago. Had a lot of money.

A niece graduates this June - only owes $150,000 in student loans.

Another relativen only a few years older lives at the back of a warehouse, didn't go to college and has a pile of money in the bank.

So, it might depend upon your values.

Posted: 4/25/2011 4:32:03 AM EDT

[#10]

Take a look around you now. You don't think that in twenty years some little bastard will blame you for the world they live in?

Posted: 4/25/2011 4:33:20 AM EDT

[#11]

Oh, I forgot. I wore handmedown clothes until I went to junior high school. Then we weren't allowed to wear blue jeans. We had to wear stay press pants and a synthetic shirt to save on washing and ironing.

I remember when one day I had to go to school and the handmedown shoes were too tight. I took my older brother's shoes that day

. It was a signal to my mother to buy my brother another pair of shoes.

Posted: 4/25/2011 4:34:59 AM EDT

[#12]

Quoted:
Their money was worth more, they bought less shit, less taxes.... more employment opportunities that did not require the initial investment/indebtedness of college...Government was smaller... different time and place, a better one in many ways. for some of the time the rest of the world was in ruin and we had one hell of an advantage. America has been eroded

I don't buy that. They got paid less, so the whole "less taxes and a dollar went farther" bit doesn't jive. And the "initial investment" of college is another line of BS. I wouldn't call spending $50k/year for a decade to get that liberal arts degree an investment in anything. There are good schools that give out good degrees that will pay for themselves almost immediately.

It's just a matter of financial responsibility. Plain and simple. People spent less because people saved more. My grandparents didn't have 6 cars parked in the driveway, or a TV in every room. They worked, and they penny-pinched. My grandma had a garden. Not because she needed it. Because she was too cheap to buy a can of green beans. If my grandpa couldn't fix it himself, then he learned to fix it himself and then fixed it himself. And when the market took a huge hit they didn't care because their retirement was in cash.

Things are different now. People would rather pay to have someone else deal with it. If it weren't for mandatory SS taxes and 401(k) direct deposits people wouldn't be saving jack-shit for retirement anymore.

Posted: 4/25/2011 4:39:38 AM EDT

[#13]

um...let's see.....

Family was #1, it isn't now.

it cost less to run a household back then

America was a manufacturing GIANT back then, offering a job and a good wage to all who wanted one.

America wasn't 13 trillion in debt

I could go on....

Posted: 4/25/2011 4:43:46 AM EDT

[#14]

Quoted:
Their money was worth more, they bought less shit, less taxes.... more employment opportunities that did not require the initial investment/indebtedness of college...Government was smaller... different time and place, a better one in many ways. for some of the time the rest of the world was in ruin and we had one hell of an advantage. America has been eroded

There is your answer. For example, how many times a week did your grandparents go out to a restaurant or bar? Many Americans go out a couple times a week. Restaurants and bars are literally places where you turn money into stuff you flush down the toilet. How big was your grandparents home? How many flatscreen tvs did they have? How much was their cable bill? Here's a little challenge for you - write down every dime you spend for a month and then go down the list and ask yourself - would my grandfather have spent money on that?

Posted: 4/25/2011 4:54:19 AM EDT

[#15]

Our current population, and Government are pissing away the hard fought gains that our Grandparents made while building this country.

Posted: 4/25/2011 4:55:11 AM EDT

[#16]

Quoted:

What happened that has caused the people in their 50's to be the way they are? The ones in my family seem to want what Grandpa had, what they have, and what their own kids have also.

Massive constant advertising telling them that of they didn't have "X" then they weren't measuring up.

Posted: 4/25/2011 5:09:01 AM EDT

[#17]

Quoted:

Quoted:
Their money was worth more, they bought less shit, less taxes.... more employment opportunities that did not require the initial investment/indebtedness of college...Government was smaller... different time and place, a better one in many ways. for some of the time the rest of the world was in ruin and we had one hell of an advantage. America has been eroded

Globalization. In that era, they were only competing in the labor market with other people in that region. Now, American workers are competing against the labor supply of every single person in the world, because companies can and will ship work out due to the advances of realtime communication and the practice of 3rd-world countries sending thousands of their people to our universities and then yanking them back home.

Also, the ratio of housing cost to the median income was EXTRAORDINARILY lower. A 2 bedroom, 1.5 bathroom rambler like the ones built in the post WWII housing boom was under $30,000 easily. That was also close to the average yearly salary for either a moderately skilled tradesman or a professional employee that had advanced past entry level.

These days, the median income isn't vastly higher, but housing prices have more than quadrupled. In some cases, you just start multiplying by 10.

Quoted:

Pretty much sums it up. Women's lib did not help anything either. That era all but killed the "homemaker" wife. American kids for at least one maybe two generations now have grown up in broken homes. Our moral decline has also lead us down the path of destruction.

Congratulations, you've won the Idiotic Misogynistic Drivel Award of the day, with a secondary honor of Baseless Moral Indignation Rambling. The prize? A spot on my ignore list.

This post confuses me, it had caused huge problems and if you weren't around in the 1970's when it became prevalent it's hard to describe what happened to my world and the majority of my friends worlds....

(completely aside from whether women should work or not, though one could easily argue that most woman worked up to the WWII generation and that this was only a short lived situation where woman could stay at home with 2.3 children whilst preparing martini's before that they were out slopping the pigs, feeding chickens, gathering wool and so on right besides their husband.)

One of the most tragic things to happen to the modern american family is not that they all work, it is that they all work apart from each other....

Posted: 4/25/2011 5:11:31 AM EDT

[#18]

Quoted:

Quoted:

Their money was worth more, they bought less shit, less taxes.... more employment opportunities that did not require the initial investment/indebtedness of college...Government was smaller... different time and place, a better one in many ways. for some of the time the rest of the world was in ruin and we had one hell of an advantage. America has been eroded

Globalization. In that era, they were only competing in the labor market with other people in that region. Now, American workers are competing against the labor supply of every single person in the world, because companies can and will ship work out due to the advances of realtime communication and the practice of 3rd-world countries sending thousands of their people to our universities and then yanking them back home.

Also, the ratio of housing cost to the median income was EXTRAORDINARILY lower. A 2 bedroom, 1.5 bathroom rambler like the ones built in the post WWII housing boom was under $30,000 easily. That was also close to the average yearly salary for either a moderately skilled tradesman or a professional employee that had advanced past entry level.

These days, the median income isn't vastly higher, but housing prices have more than quadrupled. In some cases, you just start multiplying by 10.

Quoted:

Pretty much sums it up. Women's lib did not help anything either. That era all but killed the "homemaker" wife. American kids for at least one maybe two generations now have grown up in broken homes. Our moral decline has also lead us down the path of destruction.

Congratulations, you've won the Idiotic Misogynistic Drivel Award of the day, with a secondary honor of Baseless Moral Indignation Rambling. The prize? A spot on my ignore list.

Care to also comment on the recent study on longevity that shows the numero uno cause of shortened life span happens to be being a child of divorce?

Facts really suck when they don't fit your POV, huh?

Posted: 4/25/2011 5:21:42 AM EDT

[#19]

Quoted:

Quoted:

Their money was worth more, they bought less shit, less taxes.... more employment opportunities that did not require the initial investment/indebtedness of college...Government was smaller... different time and place, a better one in many ways. for some of the time the rest of the world was in ruin and we had one hell of an advantage. America has been eroded

Globalization. In that era, they were only competing in the labor market with other people in that region. Now, American workers are competing against the labor supply of every single person in the world, because companies can and will ship work out due to the advances of realtime communication and the practice of 3rd-world countries sending thousands of their people to our universities and then yanking them back home.

Also, the ratio of housing cost to the median income was EXTRAORDINARILY lower. A 2 bedroom, 1.5 bathroom rambler like the ones built in the post WWII housing boom was under $30,000 easily. That was also close to the average yearly salary for either a moderately skilled tradesman or a professional employee that had advanced past entry level.

These days, the median income isn't vastly higher, but housing prices have more than quadrupled. In some cases, you just start multiplying by 10.

Quoted:

Pretty much sums it up. Women's lib did not help anything either. That era all but killed the "homemaker" wife. American kids for at least one maybe two generations now have grown up in broken homes. Our moral decline has also lead us down the path of destruction.

Congratulations, you've won the Idiotic Misogynistic Drivel Award of the day, with a secondary honor of Baseless Moral Indignation Rambling. The prize? A spot on my ignore list.

Care to also comment on the recent study on longevity that shows the numero uno cause of shortened life span happens to be being a child of divorce?

Facts really suck when they don't fit your POV, huh?

So, this study actually shows that divorce casues this, huh? Really? Take a closer look. Association != causation.

Posted: 4/25/2011 5:27:37 AM EDT

[#20]

Quoted:

Quoted:
Their money was worth more, they bought less shit, less taxes.... more employment opportunities that did not require the initial investment/indebtedness of college...Government was smaller... different time and place, a better one in many ways. for some of the time the rest of the world was in ruin and we had one hell of an advantage. America has been eroded

Globalization. In that era, they were only competing in the labor market with other people in that region. Now, American workers are competing against the labor supply of every single person in the world, because companies can and will ship work out due to the advances of realtime communication and the practice of 3rd-world countries sending thousands of their people to our universities and then yanking them back home.

Also, the ratio of housing cost to the median income was EXTRAORDINARILY lower. A 2 bedroom, 1.5 bathroom rambler like the ones built in the post WWII housing boom was under $30,000 easily. That was also close to the average yearly salary for either a moderately skilled tradesman or a professional employee that had advanced past entry level.

These days, the median income isn't vastly higher, but housing prices have more than quadrupled. In some cases, you just start multiplying by 10.

Quoted:

Pretty much sums it up. Women's lib did not help anything either. That era all but killed the "homemaker" wife. American kids for at least one maybe two generations now have grown up in broken homes. Our moral decline has also lead us down the path of destruction.

Congratulations, you've won the Idiotic Misogynistic Drivel Award of the day, with a secondary honor of Baseless Moral Indignation Rambling. The prize? A spot on my ignore list.

Prove him wrong.

Posted: 4/25/2011 5:30:03 AM EDT

[#21]

They used children as labor instead of pampering them and letting them live a soft life.

I grew up in a single income family where my dad worked for the state and ran a small beef cattle farm and we also make maple syrup to sell, did any odd jobs he could find and we raised about 70% of our own food. ( Until I was about 9 I thought that everyone had warm milk on thier cereal in the morning, fresh from the cow un pasturized the HORROR!)
There are plenty of people rasing kids on little income and doing it successfully, but they are keyholed as religious zelots or hick farmers.

Posted: 4/25/2011 5:31:09 AM EDT

[#22]

Quoted:
The older generation lived depression era values. They didn't borrow money. If they took a mortgage, it was on a small modest home and they paid it off as fast as possible. If they didn't have cash, they didn't buy it. Hell, myu grnadfather walked to work from the early 1940's until he bought his first car in 1969.

The later generation doesn't have a pot to piss in. They borrow for everything and want it now. There are two cars in the driveway of that 3500 sq ft four bedm four bath home but they have negative net worth. And I'm not bailing them ouit.

Unfortunately, yes you are,and so am I

(unwillingly, of course)

Their defaults are absorbed by the rest of us who are responsible through higer prices and extra fees.

Posted: 4/25/2011 5:31:37 AM EDT

[#23]

Quoted:
Another thing about my grandpa. He knew how to fix things. And his eldest son, my uncle who recently passed away, could fix ANYTHING. I have learned this ethic or it might be in my genes. We have specialized our way into extinction.

Aldus Huxley was right in his dystopic novel Brave New World. Shucking child rearing to mass production via day care, pre-kinder, free meals at school, after school care and mostly, the destruction of the family has ruined our society.

Sure, such activities increase the velocity of the money supply but at what cost? The Duggars feed their family for less than $4 a day per person. THAT is how they are able to have 20 children. 20 well-adjusted, proper children who will not drag society down. But the idiots here like to ridicule this family.

Well done post is well done.

Posted: 4/25/2011 5:33:55 AM EDT

[#24]

Quoted:
One of the most tragic things to happen to the modern american family is not that they all work, it is that they all work apart from each other....

Other than farming or some family-owned business, where would any family all be working with each other?

Quoted:
Care to also comment on the recent study on longevity that shows the numero uno cause of shortened life span happens to be being a child of divorce?

Facts really suck when they don't fit your POV, huh?

I'd question any such study. So your parents divorce and 60 years later you die early? Sorry, I don't buy the connection.

Posted: 4/25/2011 5:44:09 AM EDT

[#25]

Quoted:
Our current population, and Government are pissing away the hard fought gains that our Grandparents made while building this country.

That hits on another problem. You needed energy, you built a power plant, you drilled and refined oil, you weren't held back by the kind of regulations that are stifling our energy sector and economy right now. This energy problem, if not fixed soon, is going to knock America back a century. We can't afford that. Emerging indutrial nations are gearing up to surpass us very soon.

Posted: 4/25/2011 5:46:44 AM EDT

[#26]

Quoted:
That hits on another problem. You needed energy, you built a power plant, you drilled and refined oil, you weren't held back by the kind of regulations that are stifling our energy sector and economy right now. This energy problem, if not fixed soon, is going to knock America back a century. We can't afford that. Emerging indutrial nations are gearing up to surpass us very soon.

You can't have unregulated activity in that area though. Those nations are eventually going to pay for their lack of regulation. China is paying now with its cities under a fog of pollution. Japan is paying because they admitted they cut corners on their nuke plant construction program.

Posted: 4/25/2011 5:49:07 AM EDT

[#27]

Inflation caused by both the Fed and the socialist federal government.

Posted: 4/25/2011 5:55:06 AM EDT

[#28]

Quoted:

Quoted:
That hits on another problem. You needed energy, you built a power plant, you drilled and refined oil, you weren't held back by the kind of regulations that are stifling our energy sector and economy right now. This energy problem, if not fixed soon, is going to knock America back a century. We can't afford that. Emerging indutrial nations are gearing up to surpass us very soon.

You can't have unregulated activity in that area though. Those nations are eventually going to pay for their lack of regulation. China is paying now with its cities under a fog of pollution. Japan is paying because they admitted they cut corners on their nuke plant construction program.

We have went beyond reasonable. They (progressives) want us using "green" energy that frankly, just does not work. While I'm not for dumping heavy metals in our waters, I'm also not for these unrealistic regulations. The coal fired power plant near me has closed. It sits there silently all because of regulation that is beyond reasonable. They simply cannot afford to operate anymore so they pulled the plug and shut the door.

So now, some other generation station somewhere has to pick up the slack (probably the closest neighboring plant in IN where the restrictions are a little looser than in IL) so the net gain the idiots thought they were getting by shutting this plant down is negated by the extra coal being thrown on the fire in another plant

Posted: 4/25/2011 5:57:52 AM EDT

[#29]

You all forget.

It's the government spending that is the problem.

Without them over promising to the masses, they would not need to force consumption for growth.

They then raise taxes and hide fees everywhere, cable bills, phone bills, water bills, gasoline taxes for roads that are used for trains, toll roads because those who paid the taxes for the roads can afford to pay tolls. They sucked more of our discretionary income out of our pockets to show economic growth.

Regardless of any persons overspending, them going bankrupts is NOTHING compared to what this president alone has done.

TXL

Posted: 4/25/2011 5:58:49 AM EDT

[#30]

Quoted:
I guess this is a blame the people in their 50's for ruining the US post.

I fit in there and am retired. BTW, my leaving the work force earlier means you're going to have to pick up that share that I'm not really paying anymore.

But really, back when I was growing up there wasn't much of a culture of consumerism and less of an opportunity to do so anyway. Frankly, people lived a simpler life and didn't spend money on so much senseless BS as they do today.

Posted: 4/25/2011 6:02:51 AM EDT

[#31]

Look at the difference in the expected standard of living.

The AVERAGE American has access to medical care that a royal didn't have 100 years ago

The AVERAGE American has a home with plumbing, bathrooms, electricity, climate control (air and heat) that was unthinkable 100 years ago

The AVERAGE American has communication (telephone, internet, television, sat radio) that was unthinkable 100 years ago

The AVERAGE American has access to education that was limited to only the very wealthy 100 years ago

The AVERAGE American has access to food both variety and quantity that was unthinkable 100 years ago

The AVERAGE American has access to transportation that was impossible a 100 years ago (cars, air travel)

The AVERAGE American has the ability to take exotic vacations that would have been difficult for the wealthy 100 years ago

The AVERAGE American has access to credit facilities (credit cards) that didn't exist a half century ago

The AVERAGE American has access to entertainment that people a 100 years ago could not imagine

The truth is we have SO many more options than a person 75 or 100 years ago. Technology has become so integrated into our lives we don't even notice it. 100 years ago the flu might have killed you, your life expectancy would have been much lower. The retail options of 100 years ago might be limited to a local general store, and farmers market. We are spoiled. Our grandparents didn't have choices we have. They ate, slept, if they had money their entertainment might include a radio, and once in a blue moon a movie. Their vacation might have been a road trip staying with family, friends, or modest hotels, which would have been considered a luxury. Most worked, ate, slept, worked, ate, slept, worked, ate, slept....their entire life. Entertainment was a local dance, church event, or fair. There is absolutely no comparison between the generations. They didn't have access to the kinds of things you take for granted.

Take a tour of an old "average man's home" of a 100 years ago. Maybe it had one bathroom. The "master bedroom" had one closet the size of which wouldn't have accommodated a 6 year old today. People didn't have ALL the crap we have. Given a choice people want all that crap. However, it would be very easy to live like your grandparents did and accomplish what they accomplished. Give up your car, or at least cut your household down to one modest car. Save for everything, buy nothing on credit. If you can't buy it with cash you can't afford it. Cut your wardrobe down to one nice outfit (Sunday's best), a couple work outfits, one pair of shoes. Cancel your telephone, cell phone, and internet. If you get sick tough it out. Limit your food to a simple diet prepared at home, and buy the least expensive food you can buy. Cancel your cable television, and don't buy any video games, tech gadgets, or DVD's. Don't eat out at restaurants, or go on vacations. Never fly anywhere. Don't buy any gadgets, or "fun" toys. Get rid of your guns except for a reliable shotgun and perhaps a hunting rifle.

There is no comparison....

They didn't have the choices, we do. Progressives would like to limit your choices for your own good. That's what socialist countries did.

Posted: 4/25/2011 6:05:32 AM EDT

[#32]

Quoted:
We have went beyond reasonable. They (progressives) want us using "green" energy that frankly, just does not work. While I'm not for dumping heavy metals in our waters, I'm also not for these unrealistic regulations. The coal fired power plant near me has closed. It sits there silently all because of regulation that is beyond reasonable. They simply cannot afford to operate anymore so they pulled the plug and shut the door.

So now, some other generation station somewhere has to pick up the slack (probably the closest neighboring plant in IN where the restrictions are a little looser than in IL) so the net gain the idiots thought they were getting by shutting this plant down is negated by the extra coal being thrown on the fire in another plant

I guess that depends on your definition of reasonable. If the method of power generation has identified problems, then those problems need to be fixed. You don't just throw up your hands and say "well, we need the power, so we're going to just accept this uncorrected hazzard that we've identified".

Posted: 4/25/2011 6:07:30 AM EDT

[#33]

Government spending was kept below 5% of GDP

Posted: 4/25/2011 6:08:40 AM EDT

[#34]

Quoted:
Inflation. Dollar devaluation. You really should look into it.

To get started, figure out how many (silver) dollars your grandfather earned per year.

Then multiply by $47 (or whatever the going rate is in the morning- (you are going to need to check)

$47 X (grandfathers annual income) = ?????? Thats how much you need to be making to maintain parity. Are you?

Do the same with Oil, Gold, or other commodities. It's fun, educational, and terrifying.

Oh Geeze not this tired old crap again, you can't run an economic system on species currency without eventually devolving into fuedalism. It creates situations where the more productive your economy is the less money there is to pay people.

Posted: 4/25/2011 6:10:33 AM EDT

[#35]

They didn't have all the material items we have and basically cooked their own food. Oftentimes they grew their own food.

They were tougher and stronger, not near as fat and lazy as we are.

They had to be to survive.

Posted: 4/25/2011 6:11:18 AM EDT

[#36]

Quoted:
You could easily now if you want to. People make more now.

The median household income in 1950 was $3319. In 2010 dollars that is $29,725.

The median household income in 2009 was $49,777. But I know the naysayers will say that is 2 earner. So we will use the median for a single full time earner, which was
$36,837 in 2009. $36,800 is higher than $29,700. And the 1950 income has the 2 earner (which there were some of) included in it.

In 1950 the average house size was 1100 sq ft. With 4-8 people living in it.

They had one car.

They had one telephone.

They had maybe one TV.

They had 1, maybe 2, radios.

They did NOT have...

A dryer

An air conditioner

A microwave

A dishwasher

A computer

Internet

Cable TV

DVD player

MP3 player

A cell phone, and most definately not one for each person

If you want to live 1950s style it would be EASY to support a family of 4-6 on $36,000.

But we want the greater luxury avaliable to us now, which was not avaliable to our parents and grandparents.

Move to an 1100 sq ft house. Dump the cell phone, cable, any other monthly expenses other than basic phone, sell your extra car, all your electronics, dryer, and microwave and don't run your air conditioner or dishwasher at all.

See how much money you will have extra every month.

I like your style.

Posted: 4/25/2011 6:15:17 AM EDT

[#37]

Quoted:

Quoted:
We have went beyond reasonable. They (progressives) want us using "green" energy that frankly, just does not work. While I'm not for dumping heavy metals in our waters, I'm also not for these unrealistic regulations. The coal fired power plant near me has closed. It sits there silently all because of regulation that is beyond reasonable. They simply cannot afford to operate anymore so they pulled the plug and shut the door.

So now, some other generation station somewhere has to pick up the slack (probably the closest neighboring plant in IN where the restrictions are a little looser than in IL) so the net gain the idiots thought they were getting by shutting this plant down is negated by the extra coal being thrown on the fire in another plant

I guess that depends on your definition of reasonable. If the method of power generation has identified problems, then those problems need to be fixed. You don't just throw up your hands and say "well, we need the power, so we're going to just accept this uncorrected hazzard that we've identified".

IL has signed on to the Kyoto protcol. We can't use our native coal anymore because of it. It has a very high energy content and is very abundant. In fact, Illinois' coal reserves alone contain more energy than the oil reserves of Saudi Arabia and Kuwait! The sulfer content exceeds what Kyoto thinks it should though, even after the coal was washed and prepped to reduce sulfer content, some foreign treaty we've shackled ourselves to now tells us we can't use it. I don't understand why everyone thinks man has such a negative effect on the earth anyway. In the grand scheme of things, we have no control. One volcanic eruption negates years of pollution control. Yes, we should be good stewards, and through some reasonable regulations, we've done that. It still is not good enough for the enviro-nazis. Their progressive agenda is crystal clear, at least to me anyway. They want to eliminate the middle class. How better to do it than make energy unaffordable?

If we are not careful, this Kyoto thing will eventually be adopted by the the entire nation, not just the progressive states (like illannoys) that already have it.

ETA, to take it a step further, people will be wishing for the good old days of fossil fuel power generation when everyone is forced to start burnig wood and coal and whatever else is plentiful in their homes.

Posted: 4/25/2011 6:17:25 AM EDT

[#38]

Quoted:

Quoted:

Inflation. Dollar devaluation. You really should look into it.

To get started, figure out how many (silver) dollars your grandfather earned per year.

Then multiply by $47 (or whatever the going rate is in the morning- (you are going to need to check)

$47 X (grandfathers annual income) = ?????? Thats how much you need to be making to maintain parity. Are you?

Do the same with Oil, Gold, or other commodities. It's fun, educational, and terrifying.

Oh Geeze not this tired old crap again, you can't run an economic system on species currency without eventually devolving into fuedalism. It creates situations where the more productive your economy is the less money there is to pay people.

+1

There are twice as many American's alive today then when I was born. If you have a money supply that cannot expand (tied to limited commodity) you are guaranteeing deflation. The value of money increases over time and the value of "stuff" goes down. In other words, your homes value would be guaranteed to decline (forget getting a mortgage), each year you'd be bragging about how little a pay cut you received. Of course this if it worked at all...

More than likely we'd have folded up shop a long time ago. Those who long for the "good ol days" don't know what they were like. Believe me, you have it a hell of a lot better than your grandparents had it.

Oh, and indecently the most expensive gas was in 1922. The prices you are paying today were common in the late 70's and throughout the 80's. The only reason your moaning about it is because the historically cheapest gas was sold in the 1990's into the early 2000's.

Posted: 4/25/2011 6:19:39 AM EDT

[#39]

People lived simpler.
I remember as a small kid living in a non air-conditioned house and going to a non air-conditioned school. We didn't know any different. We drank from a common water fountain. Not fancy bottled water. There were no vending machines or junk food stuff in the schools. It was a tray of cafeteria food on a tray at lunch for $0.25! Nothing else until you got home.
We survived.
If I could stand living without AC now I could cut my electric bill by over 60%.

Most families owned one automobile. Now people have at least 2 per family if not more. Hell, my bro-in-law has SIX.

Most families vacationed(if at all.) simply. A few days at the seashore. Maybe a drive out to the Grand Canyon. Nobody flew anywhere as it was hellishly expensive.

A lot of families were 1st generation, maybe 2nd generation, off the farm. Grandfather and Grandmother still had a farm. Fresh food came very low cost. People home canned things.
I can remember everybody had a garden. And you better NOT get caught fucking around in it. Good way to get your ass beat with a belt.

There wasn't any of the electronic crap we have now. People had a phone, an AM radio, and maybe a TV. Reception was free. No one even knew about cable TV, cell phones, computers, etc. Unless you read Dick Tracy in the comic pages of the newspaper.

Personal security was a non issue. Sure, there were places where you did not go. But you could leave your car unlocked in the driveway, kids could play all day outside, etc.
Heck, I can remember at 10yrs of age getting up the morning going out to play and not seeing Mother again until near dark! Shit, now they'd call the Police if they lost sight of the kid.
Things like burglar bars, security cameras, CCW, etc were very rare because the need wasn't really there.

Another thing is people worked longer. All my older relatives worked right up until 65. Some even longer. Many continued to work doing "odd jobs"( things like painting houses, basic carpentry work, shade tree mechanic auto repair, etc). NOBODY retired at 50 unless they inherited well.

Posted: 4/25/2011 6:19:52 AM EDT

[#40]

Quoted:
I'm 34 to give you an idea of the generation. Anyway, how were they able to raise 6 or more kids on just the man working, own property, and retire with a nice stash of money in the bank? My Great Grandpa had more than my Grandpa, but they both did well.

Now, in my family, it seems as if ones my parents age (50's), couldn't raise 2 kids properly, have little in the bank, etc, BUT, they also live way better than the Great and regular Grandparents. Sometimes it seems as if they may eventually drag their own kids (me, cousins, etc) down with them when they realize they can't retire like the Grandpa's did.

I'm not much for putting thoughts to words, so sorry if I don't make sense. I guess this is a blame the people in their 50's for ruining the US post.

Fail.....Just because you can't deal with you and yours un-wise choices in life don't paint all us 50 somethings with the same brush. More 20-30 something blame game crap. So do you figure my little bit of wealth I obtained thru hard work and proper planning should be re-distributed to you?

I'm retired in my 50s, house/vehicles are paid off, own my own hunting/fishing/range property, and I'm putting my Grandkid through a private school. I live comfortably but far from extravagantly. In other words I live within my means. By comparison my parents lived out their retirement in much the same way. Neither my parents nor myself ever went to collage.

If you can't save for the things you want out of life (or even know what you want) don't disparage others that made wise choices in life..

Posted: 4/25/2011 6:19:53 AM EDT

[#41]

Quoted:

Quoted:

Our current population, and Government are pissing away the hard fought gains that our Grandparents made while building this country.

That hits on another problem. You needed energy, you built a power plant, you drilled and refined oil, you weren't held back by the kind of regulations that are stifling our energy sector and economy right now. This energy problem, if not fixed soon, is going to knock America back a century. We can't afford that. Emerging indutrial nations are gearing up to surpass us very soon.

We can't even get a new oil refinery built, to help with oil processing.

Posted: 4/25/2011 6:29:38 AM EDT

[#42]

Quoted:

Quoted:
Inflation. Dollar devaluation. You really should look into it.

To get started, figure out how many (silver) dollars your grandfather earned per year.

Then multiply by $47 (or whatever the going rate is in the morning- (you are going to need to check)

$47 X (grandfathers annual income) = ?????? Thats how much you need to be making to maintain parity. Are you?

Do the same with Oil, Gold, or other commodities. It's fun, educational, and terrifying.

Oh Geeze not this tired old crap again, you can't run an economic system on species currency without eventually devolving into fuedalism. It creates situations where the more productive your economy is the less money there is to pay people.

+1

There are twice as many American's alive today then when I was born. If you have a money supply that cannot expand (tied to limited commodity) you are guaranteeing deflation. The value of money increases over time and the value of "stuff" goes down. In other words, your homes value would be guaranteed to decline (forget getting a mortgage), each year you'd be bragging about how little a pay cut you received. Of course this if it worked at all...

More than likely we'd have folded up shop a long time ago. Those who long for the "good ol days" don't know what they were like. Believe me, you have it a hell of a lot better than your grandparents had it.

Oh, and indecently the most expensive gas was in 1922. The prices you are paying today were common in the late 70's and throughout the 80's. The only reason your moaning about it is because the historically cheapest gas was sold in the 1990's into the early 2000's.

So how do we solve this problem? If we have species currency, we risk deflation. If we have fiat currency, we risk exactly the problem facing us today. Is there a happy medium?

Posted: 4/25/2011 7:16:47 AM EDT

[#43]

Quoted:

Quoted:
Their money was worth more, they bought less shit, less taxes.... more employment opportunities that did not require the initial investment/indebtedness of college...Government was smaller... different time and place, a better one in many ways. for some of the time the rest of the world was in ruin and we had one hell of an advantage. America has been eroded

Globalization. In that era, they were only competing in the labor market with other people in that region. Now, American workers are competing against the labor supply of every single person in the world, because companies can and will ship work out due to the advances of realtime communication and the practice of 3rd-world countries sending thousands of their people to our universities and then yanking them back home.

Also, the ratio of housing cost to the median income was EXTRAORDINARILY lower. A 2 bedroom, 1.5 bathroom rambler like the ones built in the post WWII housing boom was under $30,000 easily. That was also close to the average yearly salary for either a moderately skilled tradesman or a professional employee that had advanced past entry level.

These days, the median income isn't vastly higher, but housing prices have more than quadrupled. In some cases, you just start multiplying by 10.

Quoted:

Pretty much sums it up. Women's lib did not help anything either. That era all but killed the "homemaker" wife. American kids for at least one maybe two generations now have grown up in broken homes. Our moral decline has also lead us down the path of destruction.

Congratulations, you've won the Idiotic Misogynistic Drivel Award of the day, with a secondary honor of Baseless Moral Indignation Rambling. The prize? A spot on my ignore list.

Care to also comment on the recent study on longevity that shows the numero uno cause of shortened life span happens to be being a child of divorce?

Facts really suck when they don't fit your POV, huh?

Link, please.

Consider me a skeptic of this "fact"

Posted: 4/25/2011 7:38:13 AM EDT

[#44]

Quoted:
they didn't do wtupid things like buy too big or expensive of a house that ate up all their income every month. They saved up enough money to get a cheap mortgage allowing them to afford their children and their retirement plans.

They also didn't do stupid shit like spend all of their income on shit they didn't need. Kids wore hand me downs even if they could afford new clothes. You didn't have a tv for every room and you didn't pay 150 a month for a family smart phone plan because your land line worked just fine(and cell phones didn't exist)

They didn't spend outrageous amounts of money for clothing just so they could point out what brand they were wearing. Mom had a couple of nice dresses and dad had a couple of nice suits but day to day clothing wasn't a priority.

They cooked at home to keep costs down.

They didn't pay other people to do things they can easily do themselves with a little bit of work.

They didn't think health insurance is supposed to cover every god damned thing on the planet and had higher deductibles and only serious injury was covered saving thousands of dollar a year (government is attempting to make this type of health plan illegal so that wont be an option if obamacare stands)

They didn't buy a brand new car until their cars stopped running and were no longer worth fixing because the resale value was lower than the repair costs.

They didn't borrow against their house. They payed off their houses leaving several decades of wages without high living costs allowing them to bucckle down and save or invest to make their retirement even more comfortable.

stuff like that.

Some of us still live that way and will be able to retire and raise our kids pretty comfortable on an average or below average income.

Inflation is only a small part of the problem . The problem is people have forgotten the difference between a want and a need in life and no longer look into the future and what they want out of it when making day to day decisions with their money.

Yeah I fall into some if that. Mostly cuz I didn't have anything growing up and want to provide my 2 boys with the things I wanted but could never have. Other then that I also invest a lot. The projected value of mine and my wife's retirement will be 1.5 million. Though I really don't think it will even be worth what I've put in...

Posted: 4/25/2011 7:56:47 AM EDT

[#45]

Quoted:
they bought less shit

First reply nailed it

Posted: 4/25/2011 7:58:53 AM EDT

[#46]

When I was in college, I lived in a 1940's vintage duplex that would have been considered middle class in that era. I lived there (as a college student, mind you) because it was cheap.

What does that tell you?

Posted: 4/25/2011 8:29:39 AM EDT

[#47]

Quoted:
You could easily now if you want to. People make more now.

The median household income in 1950 was $3319. In 2010 dollars that is $29,725.

The median household income in 2009 was $49,777. But I know the naysayers will say that is 2 earner. So we will use the median for a single full time earner, which was
$36,837 in 2009. $36,800 is higher than $29,700. And the 1950 income has the 2 earner (which there were some of) included in it.

In 1950 the average house size was 1100 sq ft. With 4-8 people living in it.

They had one car.

They had one telephone.

They had maybe one TV.

They had 1, maybe 2, radios.

They did NOT have...

A dryer

An air conditioner

A microwave

A dishwasher

A computer

Internet

Cable TV

DVD player

MP3 player

A cell phone, and most definately not one for each person

If you want to live 1950s style it would be EASY to support a family of 4-6 on $36,000.

But we want the greater luxury avaliable to us now, which was not avaliable to our parents and grandparents.

Move to an 1100 sq ft house. Dump the cell phone, cable, any other monthly expenses other than basic phone, sell your extra car, all your electronics, dryer, and microwave and don't run your air conditioner or dishwasher at all.

See how much money you will have extra every month.

I want to recoznize the wisdom of this post.

In simple terms, our ancestors were accustomed to living simpler lives and making do with a lot less than we consume today.

Posted: 4/25/2011 8:34:28 AM EDT

[#48]

Quoted:

Quoted:
You could easily now if you want to. People make more now.

The median household income in 1950 was $3319. In 2010 dollars that is $29,725.

The median household income in 2009 was $49,777. But I know the naysayers will say that is 2 earner. So we will use the median for a single full time earner, which was
$36,837 in 2009. $36,800 is higher than $29,700. And the 1950 income has the 2 earner (which there were some of) included in it.

In 1950 the average house size was 1100 sq ft. With 4-8 people living in it.

They had one car.

They had one telephone.

They had maybe one TV.

They had 1, maybe 2, radios.

They did NOT have...

A dryer

An air conditioner

A microwave

A dishwasher

A computer

Internet

Cable TV

DVD player

MP3 player

A cell phone, and most definately not one for each person

If you want to live 1950s style it would be EASY to support a family of 4-6 on $36,000.

But we want the greater luxury avaliable to us now, which was not avaliable to our parents and grandparents.

Move to an 1100 sq ft house. Dump the cell phone, cable, any other monthly expenses other than basic phone, sell your extra car, all your electronics, dryer, and microwave and don't run your air conditioner or dishwasher at all.

See how much money you will have extra every month.

I want to recoznize the wisdom of this post.

In simple terms, our ancestors were accustomed to living simpler lives and making do with a lot less than we consume today.

Agreed.

Posted: 4/25/2011 8:49:15 AM EDT

[#49]

Quoted:

As much as I hate consumerism, I wouldn't want to live my father's childhood, let alone my grandfather's.

+1

One can live a responsible, financially sound lifestyle, and still have a standard of living head and shoulders above previous generations.

As an earlier poster put it, back then people worked very hard for very little.

They lived how they did because they had to, not because they wanted to.

Posted: 4/25/2011 8:55:11 AM EDT

[#50]

Quoted:
When I was in college, I lived in a 1940's vintage duplex that would have been considered middle class in that era. I lived there (as a college student, mind you) because it was cheap.

What does that tell you?

We've been in the student rental business for 45 years. Back in the late 60s when we started, it was normal for students to rent a single room with a shared bath, a shared kitchen and a shared phone that sat in the hallway and that everyone on the floor chipped in to pay for. Fast forward to today: we're down to one property from a dozen or so, and we long ago got rid of any commercial properties. The students coming in today demand sooo much that their predecessors in the 60s-80s didn't even think about. On top of that, they are helpless. There isn't a single one of them that comes to college with even the most basic tools at their disposal, and if its anything more than changing a light bulb its beyond their capability to handle.

[ARCHIVED THREAD] - How did our Great Grandparents and Grandparents do it, but our own parents can't? (Page 2 of 3)

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