Quoted: Quoted: Gee and thats why they are doing raids in Baghdad????? I have seen them engage innocents and kill them for no reason that I could see. No oversight, no UCMJ= loose cannons with guns.....

Call BS all you want, I saw what I saw, deny it if it makes you feel better, but there is some illegal shit going on in Iraq as there has in all wars. I suppose PSDs getting into firefights guarding convoys isnt combat either, although they get shot up on a regular basis......

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Gee and thats why they are doing raids in Baghdad????? I have seen them engage innocents and kill them for no reason that I could see. No oversight, no UCMJ= loose cannons with guns..... Call BS all you want, I saw what I saw, deny it if it makes you feel better, but there is some illegal shit going on in Iraq as there has in all wars. I suppose PSDs getting into firefights guarding convoys isnt combat either, although they get shot up on a regular basis......

Being "in combat" is not the issue.  There are shokeepers in Iraq that are involved in combat.  The issue here is one of missions.

Assuking, for arguments sake, that what the "raid" you saw is indeed what you think saw - they were individuals NOT acting within the specificationso fthier contract.  Using an illegal and unauthorized act to define an organization is pretty faulty logic.  That woul dbe like some Okinawan anti-American activist accusing the Marine Corps of being an organization of rapists.  Heck, I'm sure there AIF propagandists who have said worse about your own unit.

However, let's look at the situation surrounding this "raid."

1)  You did not know who they were.

2)  You asked some guy in PSYOP (was he just the first guy you saw?)

3)  He told you they were Private Security guys

Assuming you saw what you thought you saw, how do you know that A) the PSYOP guy even know who they were, B) He would have told you if he did know, C) He would have given two shits about telling you the truth if he did know.  The facvt that you so eagerly took his answer at face value, shows just more of the obvious pre-conceived bias you already have.

I also want to point out that the idea of westerners teaching torture to Iraqis is laughable.  About the only thing we could teach is effective non-torture interrogation tactics.  Or maybe things that, like the now-infamous waterboarding, make a person THINK he is being tortured.  Torture is an art form in that part of the world - I couldn't imagine anyone looking to western powers for SME instructors.

As far as training their security forces - PDs throughout the US send cops to private schools.  Many members here put themselves through private training.  Do these instructors suddenly become mercs when they offer the same training overseas?

Quoted: there is some illegal shit going on in Iraq as there has in all wars.

And the Historian laughs.

The thought of something "illegal" in any war just tickles me. "Illegal" is whatever the current winning side decides it is. Which is part of why I don't understand our fighting of this war.

*shrug*

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Gee and thats why they are doing raids in Baghdad????? I have seen them engage innocents and kill them for no reason that I could see. No oversight, no UCMJ= loose cannons with guns..... Call BS all you want, I saw what I saw, deny it if it makes you feel better, but there is some illegal shit going on in Iraq as there has in all wars. I suppose PSDs getting into firefights guarding convoys isnt combat either, although they get shot up on a regular basis...... Being "in combat" is not the issue.  There are shokeepers in Iraq that are involved in combat.  The issue here is one of missions. Assuking, for arguments sake, that what the "raid" you saw is indeed what you think saw - they were individuals NOT acting within the specificationso fthier contract.  Using an illegal and unauthorized act to define an organization is pretty faulty logic.  That woul dbe like some Okinawan anti-American activist accusing the Marine Corps of being an organization of rapists.  Heck, I'm sure there AIF propagandists who have said worse about your own unit. However, let's look at the situation surrounding this "raid." 1)  You did not know who they were. 2)  You asked some guy in PSYOP (was he just the first guy you saw?) 3)  He told you they were Private Security guys Assuming you saw what you thought you saw, how do you know that A) the PSYOP guy even know who they were, B) He would have told you if he did know, C) He would have given two shits about telling you the truth if he did know.  The facvt that you so eagerly took his answer at face value, shows just more of the obvious pre-conceived bias you already have. I also want to point out that the idea of westerners teaching torture to Iraqis is laughable.  About the only thing we could teach is effective non-torture interrogation tactics.  Or maybe things that, like the now-infamous waterboarding, make a person THINK he is being tortured.  Torture is an art form in that part of the world - I couldn't imagine anyone looking to western powers for SME instructors. As far as training their security forces - PDs throughout the US send cops to private schools.  Many members here put themselves through private training.  Do these instructors suddenly become mercs when they offer the same training overseas?

Let me guess your an uber-tactical mall ninja PSD riiight and you have traveled into every AOR/ city in Iraq???? As far as Im concerned if your in the war zone, not in the military, getting a fat paycheck and carrying a weapon on operations, your a merc....Deal with it....

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Gee and thats why they are doing raids in Baghdad????? I have seen them engage innocents and kill them for no reason that I could see. No oversight, no UCMJ= loose cannons with guns..... Call BS all you want, I saw what I saw, deny it if it makes you feel better, but there is some illegal shit going on in Iraq as there has in all wars. I suppose PSDs getting into firefights guarding convoys isnt combat either, although they get shot up on a regular basis...... Being "in combat" is not the issue.  There are shokeepers in Iraq that are involved in combat.  The issue here is one of missions. Assuking, for arguments sake, that what the "raid" you saw is indeed what you think saw - they were individuals NOT acting within the specificationso fthier contract.  Using an illegal and unauthorized act to define an organization is pretty faulty logic.  That woul dbe like some Okinawan anti-American activist accusing the Marine Corps of being an organization of rapists.  Heck, I'm sure there AIF propagandists who have said worse about your own unit. However, let's look at the situation surrounding this "raid." 1)  You did not know who they were. 2)  You asked some guy in PSYOP (was he just the first guy you saw?) 3)  He told you they were Private Security guys Assuming you saw what you thought you saw, how do you know that A) the PSYOP guy even know who they were, B) He would have told you if he did know, C) He would have given two shits about telling you the truth if he did know.  The facvt that you so eagerly took his answer at face value, shows just more of the obvious pre-conceived bias you already have. I also want to point out that the idea of westerners teaching torture to Iraqis is laughable.  About the only thing we could teach is effective non-torture interrogation tactics.  Or maybe things that, like the now-infamous waterboarding, make a person THINK he is being tortured.  Torture is an art form in that part of the world - I couldn't imagine anyone looking to western powers for SME instructors. As far as training their security forces - PDs throughout the US send cops to private schools.  Many members here put themselves through private training.  Do these instructors suddenly become mercs when they offer the same training overseas? Let me guess your an uber-tactical mall ninja PSD riiight and you have traveled into every AOR/ city in Iraq???? As far as Im concerned if your in the war zone, not in the military, getting a fat paycheck and carrying a weapon on operations, your a merc....Deal with it....

Nope, I'm just a regular uniformed Joe with a government salary.  I just apparently have a lot less deep-seated issues.

They're shitholes, what would be the point? Let the Muslims have them.

Quoted: Let me guess your an uber-tactical mall ninja PSD riiight and you have traveled into every AOR/ city in Iraq???? As far as Im concerned if your in the war zone, not in the military, getting a fat paycheck and carrying a weapon on operations, your a merc....Deal with it....

There's a place in Moyock NC where you can go tell all those "mercs" what they are to their face if you feel that strongly about it...

Quoted: I still don't get why "mecenary" became a bad word, other than from the left and the UN. It wasn't always so.

Ditto.

Quoted: Quoted: I still don't get why "mecenary" became a bad word, other than from the left and the UN. It wasn't always so. Ditto.

It's only a bad word to some people. I know PSD/PMF guys that don't mind it all. I don't know any that do mind it unless it's being applied in a negative manner (by a libtard for example).