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Posted: 8/14/2007 3:07:41 PM EDT
[#1]
This is true I hate to say Fed you career would be over, regardless of UOF policy, shooting the father from what I saw on the video. The cheif would throw you to the wolves |
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Posted: 8/14/2007 3:09:20 PM EDT
[#2]
Phototherapy isn't really sunlight, but I don't want to be pedantic and even further hijack this highly important thread, so...eh... |
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Posted: 8/14/2007 3:16:13 PM EDT
[#3]
Your bias shows 4) You are an Officer of the Law and you are also an employee of the hospital. As such YOU ALREADY KNOW THE FLOOR IS ON LOCKDOWN. He can't go anywhere as long as the tag is on the baby. Your "Oh teh noes111, only a minute to act!!!" scenario is flawed. Furthermore, has he threatened the child? No. Nowhere in the article is that stated. The obvious answer is de-escalate the situation, not ENDANGER THE CHILD. Sometimes the best choice is the obvious one. I submit that the white/blue line is looking out for one another. Hyperactive nurses and citation seeking LEOs are as likely the cause of this as a "hostage taking father". |
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Posted: 8/14/2007 3:19:41 PM EDT
[#4]
PBSO in West Palm Beach FL do the same thing. |
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Posted: 8/14/2007 3:20:08 PM EDT
[#5]
The ELEVATORS are stopped. Not the stairwells.
Yup. Clearly this is the fault of the medical staff and the police officer. The jackass with the history of domestic violence who had just been screaming at the hospital staff and snatched up a kid.... Ya. He was absolutely guiltless in all of this. |
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Posted: 8/14/2007 3:23:11 PM EDT
[#6]
Did he hurt the child? Did he threaten the child? Or did an LEO with a hero complex hurt the child? I think you know the answer 
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Posted: 8/14/2007 3:23:21 PM EDT
[#7]
Pot meet kettle |
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Posted: 8/14/2007 3:25:00 PM EDT
[#8]
Tasering is one thing. Shooting is another. Shooting to ensure you've executed him? You are a fucking savage. I can only hope that most Federal LE Agents aren't as bloodthirsty as you. My GOD it's hard to stay within the bounds of the code of conduct when dealing with you. My true feelings sure aren't compliant. |
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Posted: 8/14/2007 3:26:19 PM EDT
[#9]
No, because I would issue the correct verbal commands and advise the suspect of exactly what was about to happen. After the shooting, I would clearly articulate how any other action would have placed the child in greater danger. It isn't that hard to see if you look at it. You don't get in a fistfight with someone holding a baby....you SURE don't OC them or hit them with a baton. The Taser worked but it isn't going to be perfect either. The ONLY thing that I can say for certain will work on someone trying to kidnap a child or using it as a hostage is a bullet. Easy to articulate for a GJ. "Based on my training and experience, I reasonably believed that the suspect was going to kidnap and or kill the baby. I ordered him to stop and he told me to F. Off. I again advised him to stop and place the baby on the ground. He refused and cursed at me in a highly agitated state. Based on his verbage and overtly violent attitude as well as his agressive posture and failure to follow my lawfull orders, I believed that the baby was going to be killed or injured if I failed to act. I then fired one round from my issued agency firearm which neutralized the suspect and rescued the baby" It would be a longer version of that. It would work every time. |
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Posted: 8/14/2007 3:27:36 PM EDT
[#10]
You are right, we need to start shooting people in the leg and trying to shoot guns out of their hands  It works on TV 
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Posted: 8/14/2007 3:44:00 PM EDT
[#11]
Yup....because we all know it would make a lot more sense to shoot the guy center mass...you know, where he is holding the infant???  Lordy, folks...THINK before you post. And another thing...you failed at staying in the COC. |
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Posted: 8/14/2007 3:44:28 PM EDT
[#12]
I carry a gun? Anyway, it seems that LE is getting all inflamed by people who say he shouldn't have tasered. I disagree, I think he did the right thing. Translation: I'm on your side* I think the WRONG thing is to execute the guy like FedDC and OLNACL have suggested. *unless you're FedDC or OLNACL |
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Posted: 8/14/2007 3:45:04 PM EDT
[#13]
C'mon you know these retards will never let facts get in the way of the hate. |
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Posted: 8/14/2007 3:46:11 PM EDT
[#14]
You don't seem to understand how use of force works. |
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Posted: 8/14/2007 3:46:19 PM EDT
[#15]
No, I would have tasered him. |
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Posted: 8/14/2007 3:46:27 PM EDT
[#16]
So....if you are in a situation where you are forced to shoot someone, where are you gonna shoot him? Man is holding a hostage, has a gun or knife and is threatening the hostage....negotiation isn't working.....what are you gonna do? And yes, I realize I am changing the situation.....like I said, and you apparently did not read I am not advocating shooting the idiot father....just wanting to get your informed opinion on where it is ok to shoot someone. |
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Posted: 8/14/2007 3:49:50 PM EDT
[#17]
I think maybe you missed this part of the article...
Neither the mother or that father had legal custody of the baby at the time. That's how all of this started. |
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Posted: 8/14/2007 3:51:04 PM EDT
[#18]
Impossible! The father was a saint!!! |
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Posted: 8/14/2007 3:52:49 PM EDT
[#19]
After watching the video. IMO, the guy was taking child out of the nursery area and appeared to be looking around as if to see who was around. The security guard and officer appeared to have a plan of distraction, tase, grab the child. Appeared to work from what I saw.
At this point I'm going to say good tase. Otherwise from the physical size of the guy it would have been a good fight to get the child from the guy and could result in injury to the child. They did not know he was the father. If this had turned out not be the father everyone (except the usual) would be high fiveing. ETA: Knowing the state actually has custody of the child. Very good tase. |
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Posted: 8/14/2007 3:53:04 PM EDT
[#20]
Neither the mother or that father had legal custody of the baby at the time. That's how all of this started. WRONG!! WRONG!!!! WRONG!! IT IS ALL THE OFFICER'S FAULT!!!!! THE OFFICER IS ALWAYS WRONG!!!!! |
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Posted: 8/14/2007 3:55:50 PM EDT
[#21]
It is actually not real clear whether CPS had custody of the child before or after this incident. |
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Posted: 8/14/2007 4:01:21 PM EDT
[#22]
I am happy to let law enforcement make the decision to shoot someone (in the head even  ) in that situation.No more strawmen, please. Let's get back to the situation at hand in which case I do not advocate shooting. |
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Posted: 8/14/2007 4:03:37 PM EDT
[#23]
Nimrod, Bama-Shooter, John-Wayne, and OLNACL,
The article does not specify whether CPS had custody of the baby at the time of the incident. They may, or may not have. We don't know. Don't just read someone's post. Read the article. |
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Posted: 8/14/2007 4:11:44 PM EDT
[#24]
No it is not kinda like that. Was he supposed to let an angry agitated man who they do not know the relationship to the child take said child out of the hospital without permission? It is much better to stop the person from taking the baby right now. I am sure they were ordering him to put the baby down but he refused. I say give the Officer a Commendation for stopping a possibly very bad situation. Maybe he was going to go kill the baby because he did not want it. Maybe he knew he would be paying child support for the next 18-20 years. Why was he unknown to hospital staff? Why was the mom not saying, "That is my baby daddy"? He could have taken the baby and then the mom could have played dumb and claimed she did not know the person and sue the hospital for allowing her baby to be kidnapped. And it seems only the bad guy is saying anything is wrong with the baby. Has there been any medical person state anything is wrong with the child? I say the Officer did well. |
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Posted: 8/14/2007 4:19:20 PM EDT
[#25]
I don't use bad language,
but fuck that. |
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Posted: 8/14/2007 4:32:54 PM EDT
[#26]
I have done this 5 times (baby) everytime I had a wrist band that matched baby just like mom. I couldn't see in the vid if he had one or not
Like I said from the beginging It would be great to have audio to go with the vid. If I was in that situation I would have nevr let it get to that point, if we were unsatisified with the hospitital I would request to be discharged, If refused I would request to speak to the charge nurse, failing that a MD, that failing a lawyer would be called and I would initaite the contact with the police. This dad was a moron you don't place your newborn in harms way. I would really like to hear what was said by the officers and dad by an objective source ie audio to go with tape. |
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Posted: 8/14/2007 5:58:24 PM EDT
[#27]
Wasn't the hospital staff trying to determine the guys relationship to the baby - ie if dumbass had been cooperative he would have had a bracelet just like mom's...... Brian |
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Posted: 8/14/2007 6:27:45 PM EDT
[#28]
Very well stated!! As this was a kidnap attempt, tasering was a good solution. Negociate with a kidnapper. Yeah okay... When it ends badly it's the cops faults. Taser the guy...Poor decision on the cops part. Guy tries to escape down the stairway, and drops or injures the child. It's the cops fault. Face it, No matter how the cops act, The Monday morning armchair commando quarterbacks, will always say the cops did it wrong. In this case everyone's OK. The cops did good. |
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Posted: 8/14/2007 7:04:56 PM EDT
[#29]
Upon reading the article a second time, I agree that the sentence that I quoted earlier could be interpreted either way. The following sentence appears later in the article:
This sentence shows that the man had not been positively identified as the infant's father. So I say the officer was still right to stop the man from leaving until this had been determined. |
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Posted: 8/14/2007 7:19:37 PM EDT
[#30]
While I believe that this whole clusterfuck is about 99% the father's fault........this cannot be ignored.
It is often said that a DA could get a ham sandwich indicted if he was so inclined. The evidence against this man must have been pretty damned flimsy. Also I think it is pretty damned sad that a Federal LEO pretty much stated exactly how he would have mislead a Grand Jury, and justified using deadly force on a guy who wasn't even indicted for the "crime" he would have killed him for. That is pretty fucked up in my mind.  YMMV |
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Posted: 8/14/2007 7:28:47 PM EDT
[#31]
It is in no way misleading. It is based on what the officer at the scene knew at the time. A male suspect took a child that he did not have a bracelet for. He then became hostile when asked if it was his child and tried to leave forcefully. That looks like a kidnapping to anyone with two brain cells. He was then confronted by a uniformed LEO who gave him specific instructions which he again failed to follow... See a trend here Not rocket science and not misleading at all. |
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Posted: 8/14/2007 7:41:15 PM EDT
[#32]
Yea but the big question is : Do they eat chilli with or without beans?
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Posted: 8/14/2007 11:53:58 PM EDT
[#33]
there you go reading the article for comprehension before posting out ones fantasies. Don't you realize that reading before positng is almost a banning offense around here. I love the brilliance of the guys that would rather have the officers let an unidentified adult walk out with a child that has not been cleared to leave. Yeah that makes sense.
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Posted: 8/15/2007 1:15:31 AM EDT
[#34]
My daughter was born in that same hospital, 12 years ago. I can tell you that even 12 years ago, the security was tight. Mother had an armband. Baby had an armband, and DAD had an armband. In fact, I still have mine. We were warned early on, that any time we were moving the baby, we would be challenged to see if our armbands matched the baby's. And they weren't kidding. When we left the hospital, we were checked about a dozen times as we walked out. I'm sure the security has only gotten better since then. In this case, if the father in question had identified himself as such, and completed the necessary documentation of that fact, he too would have had an armband. He too would have been informed as to the hospital's security measures. He would have walked out of that hospital with his child without so much as glance from hospital officials. But, this is ARFCOM GD, this is all pretty much a mute point. It's the Cop's fault. If Christ himself walked up wearing a badge, a segment of GD would step up with a hammer and a fist full of nails. It is the way of things...
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Posted: 8/15/2007 1:33:16 AM EDT
[#35]
If the cop knew it was the babys father and he weas simply trying to take his family and leave, then he's an idiot. But the hospital statement sounds like the hospital staff including the security guard, thought it was a child abduction and the security guard decided a fall was better than a kidnapping for the infant. |
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Posted: 8/15/2007 2:12:40 AM EDT
[#36]
Whatever.
Like she's going to need a brain to pick up a dollar between her jugs in 18 years. |
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Posted: 8/15/2007 2:36:10 AM EDT
[#37]
The bull-headedness on this site is unbelievable. The father of the child was not going anywhere. The elevators would not operate. Your mindset is only intent on taking the father down. Maybe, just maybe the officer should have found out what the situation really was and then when it was determined that the man was the father of the child, then the officer could have escorted him to his vehicle. To serve and protect. 
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Posted: 8/15/2007 3:28:29 AM EDT
[#38]
Quoted just because I wanted it preserved that you agreed with FedDC.
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Posted: 8/15/2007 4:05:23 AM EDT
[#39]
...or the jackass cried about his poor baby on the stand and the jury got so emotional their brains went liquid and started leaking out of their ears..... The "indict a ham sandwich" line is a reference mainly to how stupid juries can sometimes be.
What FedDC stated wouldn't have been "misleading" a grand jury.... If in the officer's frame of mind they could reasonably be dealing with a threat to the child or an attempt to kidnap the child, the officer CAN use lethal force to stop it. When a police officer kills someone he/she usually has to go before a grand jury and at some point articulate why they made the decision to use lethal force. There are NUMEROUS occasions where LE has been forced to shoot someone who would not have sustained criminal charges later, most often with severely disturbed individuals who are violent. They likely would not have been held criminally liable for hurting someone during their violent outburst, but that doesn't change the decision the officer on scene has to face when dealing with the problem. |
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Posted: 8/15/2007 4:08:06 AM EDT
[#40]
You ever seen a hospital that ONLY had elevators and no easily accessible stairwells? 'Cause I sure as hell haven't. |
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Posted: 8/15/2007 4:11:09 AM EDT
[#41]
Yes, if you are a danger to self (suicidal) or others (homocidal). It sounds like they were leaving AMA (against medical advice) which is not a reason to forceably hold someone. The sticky thing is the whole baby issue. It could be argued that, if the newborn had some sort of lifethreatening condition, the child could be treated against the parent's will. Zack |
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Posted: 8/15/2007 4:33:03 AM EDT
[#42]
One thing slips by the GD experts. (okay, a lot of things really, but I want to point this out)
Who says he was the father of the child in the first place? The mom was right there and made no such claim. Fact is, CPS took custody of the child AT BIRTH. There has to be a REALLY serious malfunction on someone's part for that to occur. In 23 years I've only seen that happen three times, one involved a pregnant homicide suspect, the others were crack whores living on the street. What's the past history of these two? |
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Posted: 8/15/2007 5:27:53 AM EDT
[#43]
I'm sorry, but where are you getting that? Is there another source besides the original article? Because that's not in the article we got. |
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Posted: 8/15/2007 5:55:40 AM EDT
[#44]
Amazing, isn't it? Some police officers manipulate statements to fit their agenda, this is why any Police report is suspect. |
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Posted: 8/15/2007 5:56:22 AM EDT
[#45]
Why the fuck couldnt the father take the baby home? Is this still a free country? If the guy is holding the baby- then you do NOTHING. The risk is too great! Lawsuit in 3-2-1.
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Posted: 8/15/2007 5:57:28 AM EDT
[#46]
To me this part is paramount:
Was any of that true? Because if they were known to be the parents of the child and the hospital simply refused to let them leave or indicate that they were the parents when the security folks showed up then I think the Hospital is on the hook. Who the hell are they not to immediately remove the bracelet and allow the parents to leave? Minus an emergency condition that is. Since the bracelet would have the child's name on it, could security not have simply asked him to identify himself before leaving? If they did that and he tried to leave without complying THEN I'd be on board with preventing a kidnapping. As it stands it looks to me like the Hospital tried to imprison them and then used force to prevent their escape.... If CPS had custody then that changes everything. However, I don't see where people are getting that. |
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Posted: 8/15/2007 6:18:50 AM EDT
[#47]
Why the fuck are you here? Maybe 1 in 5 of your posts doesn't contain "blanket AR15.com/GD bashing". Almost every poster here can discuss a number of different subjects, but you have one single subject and point of view and only appear in one kind of thread. If you think so lowly of the membership of this site, why are you here? |
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Posted: 8/15/2007 6:25:48 AM EDT
[#48]
Police/security screwed up. Instead of defusing a situtation they only made it worse. They took actions that could only result in injury to the child and therefore should be held accountable. Poor training by that local PD.
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Posted: 8/15/2007 6:35:19 AM EDT
[#49]
 Do you even understand Grand Juries and the process they work with? I realy don't think you do. You sure as hell have never served on one.  "Indict a ham sandwich applies because juries are stupid".....Take a civics lesson and learn EXACTLY who the Grand Jurors are. The accused most likely wasn't even there and the ONLY evidence presented was from the DA.BTW if someone started whining in front of a Grand Jury....I promise you an indictment. It doesn't work that way. They can't just start whining. It's not a courtroom....... AND considering what FedDC wrote, as it applies to this case, with ZERO knowledge of what went down and more importantly the finest, most upstanding members of the local community decided that the man did nothing wrong at that time, he still found the words to use to justify killing a man. Then stated "it would work everytime". What's worse, burning a Mexican flag, or talking about lying to a GJ about the justifications used to take a life. And then claiming it would work everytime? Please keep the respect I have left for you intact and don't further justify this action.  I can tell you this anyone who has ever served on a GJ would be furious at his remarks on this. Take that for what it is worth. Truth is the cornerstone of the Justice system. Law enforcement can't lie or mislead GJ's. If they do, the system breaksdown right there. |
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Posted: 8/15/2007 6:56:30 AM EDT
[#50]
Ok lets see if I get this right. The Woman's Hospital of Texas said Lewis was hostile and uncooperative toward hospital staff who were only trying to find out his relationship to the infant when they saw him trying to leave the hospital. So some of you think the LEO should have just said go a head and go. You have a right to leave. Although we do not know if that baby is yours or not but you say it is so Ok. You Know I think some of you need to go work as a cop in NY or Chicago for about a month and see what they go thru.
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