Thanks for the reply my man... The range of 400-500 yards would be for a possible meal for my family and myself not a red dawn situation... accually here where I live 250-350 would be way more common in the open fields but I would say roughly 70% of the land here is heavy woods so the round would need to be heavy enough to punch thru brush if needed. However the rifle would have to serve as my defensive weapon as well which is why I did not select a high power bolt gun...

I've discussed this at length with my friends. They only had one piece of advice: In the SHTF situation, the National Guard will NOT be your friends. Think of them as moving caches of ammo, weapons, and MREs.

Adjust your loadouts accordingly.

What kind of large animals you got there in Oklahoma?
Whitetails?
wild pig?
Dogs?
Human?

All you need is your AR
Accurate
Lots of available ammo
Deadly out to +500 yards on man size targets.

Quoted: I've discussed this at length with my friends. They only had one piece of advice: In the SHTF situation, the National Guard will NOT be your friends. Think of them as moving caches of ammo, weapons, and MREs. Adjust your loadouts accordingly.

Wow there mall ninja, don't forget most Guardsman are just regular joes with families and friends plus most of them are gun owners and many post on THIS board.

IMHO I would say dont try to take on a guard unit.

In your scenario, it would have to be the M1A hands down.

Quoted: Wow there mall ninja, don't forget most Guardsman are just regular joes with families and friends plus most of them are gun owners and many post on THIS board. IMHO I would say dont try to take on a guard unit.

That was my first reaction to their advice. And as hard as it is to think of fellow gunowners as the enemy, when order turns to chaos, and encounters with Guard units means someone isn't going home to their family, I'm making sure that the OTHER guy is going to be that "someone."


I've got an M1A Scout, along with my Remington 700.

FAL For Sure if you want to do any damage out at long distance.

Quoted: and encounters with Guard units means someone isn't going home to their family, I'm making sure that the OTHER guy is going to be that "someone." I've got an M1A Scout, along with my Remington 700.

You may get one but the 7 other fire teams are going to lay a beat down on you, thats only if its just a platoon.

but come on why would a guard unit be after you in the first place??

Quoted: Due to current events in my life I am getting ride of a few hobbies ($) and my firearms hobby is going to take a big hit here. I am thining down to two weapons, a pistol for carry and a SHTF rifle. Sad, yes but I dont want to get into that... anyway, here is the scenario: If a man could have only one rifle and that rifles primary duty would be as a SHTF rifle, able to kill large animals for food and used in defence of family and home, rifle would need to be good in a brushy enviroment as well as the open flat ground out to say 400-500 yards. What rifle and caliber of the following would you pick and why? AR-15, 5.56mm standard 20" A2 AK-47, 7.62x39mm AK-74, 5.45x39mm PTR91, 7.62x51 M1A, 7.62x51

10-22

I no longer understand the hard-on for SHTF scenarios (not you personally, jnewt). Seriously, running around with a military style firearm through some post-apocalyptic fantasy land isnt my idea of a smart thing to do. If you are going to carry an all purpose weapon you should get a LIGHT bolt action rifle, like a scout type clone -its inconspicious, even if someone saw you with it, they would probably think you were just hunting, a pistol would be a good thing to have as a last resort as well. Wheres with an AR15 or any other type of rifle of its kind, you could be initially percieved as a thug preying on survivors (from the sheep point of view) and will be treated as such by authorities, to which you would respond defensivly, in turn confirming suspicions that you are some whacko in the street with an AR15. If you must go with an AR15, use it on your own property so you are 100% in the right of law in defending yourself. Otherwise you are some guy looking for trouble.

Keep in mind, we have whole groups of men fighting overseas right now with the best equipment and team leadership and they are still dying. Do people really think that with the perfect weapon they can take out Guardsmen or foreign invaders on their own?? Too much Rambo & Red Dawn going around.

There have been lots of good points made in this thread. But Tatjana said about 95% of what I was going to say. So I won't repeat all of that again.

I will say that for the majority of your needs, an AR carbine would suffice nicely. The area in which a different weapon/larger caliber might be productive is with the longer range hunting shots. Seeing that you are in Oklahoma, you are justified in desiring such capability, especially if you're located in the western half of the state (say I-35 and west). While I feel the .308, .270 or 30-06 would be better suited to bringing down medium size and larger game at relatively long distances, I see that role as being only about 10% of your total requirement at best. So I would not at all discount .223 caliber weapons for that just because of this single issue. The stocking and/or pre-positioning of food items (think MRE's) would make the need for harvesting game out of necessity (and thus announcing to the world your presence) less likely. This should be an important consideration.

With all of that said, here's what I use and some of my thoughts (or ramblings, you decide) on SHTF situations:

Primary weapon: Bushmaster 16" HBAR carbine, standard A2 stock, no flash hider
Ammunition: Black Hills 68 gr OTM (low flash, adequate performance in my likely engagement range)
Optics: Aimpoint (my preference, although an ACOG would be just fine also)

back-up weapon: Glock 17 9mm
ammo: Winchester 147 gr Ranger (Winchester Ranger 127 gr +P+ or Speer 124 gr Gold Dot +P would also be just fine)

I feel that in my particular situation and my anticipated needs, those two weapons will work for the vast majority of scenarios I can imagine.

But now I will keep rambling on.......

I really get into this SHTF stuff for some odd reason and I have spent many hours thinking about such things. In my situation, I have analyzed my needs, likely scenarios, environment, climate, people, geography and just about everything you can imagine. For me, I have come up with two methods of operating in such conditions.

First, I am in a very rural area. Therefore riots and dealing with huge numbers of people are naturally less a concern for me than for people living in the larger cities, the burbs or areas near large populations. I perceive my biggest threat being the roving small groups of people who seek to take advantage of the breakdown in law and order to steal and run amuck. So unless pressured to do so, I don't plan on taking off into the woods and living off the land, since my main concern is protecting my property and valuables. My main plan is to stay in place. But I also realize that this is not the smartest strategy if I'm alone. One person cannot remain awake 24/7. One person cannot cover all avenues of approach. And one person cannot effectively deal with a determined group of attackers who know what they are doing. Therefore to remain in place, I feel back-up is necessary. And I have it.

I have a group of like minded friends (and family in a few cases) that plan to come here and join me in the event some catastrophic event takes place that would require such a lifestyle. We have planned this together and are well versed in the procedures for dealing with such issues. Each person has his/her own equipment and their own roles/specialties. They each have transportation, are close enough to get here without any issues and have back-up plans should the roads be blocked.  The total group strength is 10 people, counting myself. This isn't just an accidental occurence either. First, 10 people are about all I can support as far as room goes. I only know about 9 other folks that I can really rely on and trust. And a group that size is also about as ideal as you can get as far as mobility and application of small unit tactics.

The reason my place is the meeting spot is not by coincidence either. First, out of all my "group" member's places of residence, mine is centrally located. That's important when it comes to getting there fast and having to go as short a distance as possible. Secondly, it is the most defensible of available choices. There is only one access road into the property. I have few neighbors and the ones I do have are quality people (a couple are also in my group). I live on a small rise with large open areas surrounding the place. This provides a good field of fire if necessary as well as lots of nice, defensible space in the event of wildfires or other unforseen problems. My home is far enough off the main highway that nobody could stand in the road and lob molotov cocktails at my house and set it ablaze. I have a building suitable for storage where members can secure their property and valuables. I also have some other desirable goodies such as a generator and access to a well with manually operated pump in the event the juice is a no go.

Now, back to the weapons. As I said, each person has a role. Within my group, we try to use similar stuff, that way parts, ammo, etc are interchangeable. So for example, most everyone has a Glock 17 and an AR as their primary weapons. Since we are a group, we also have a scoped pre-ban Springfield M1A NM for use in the event a longer shot is necessary and for enhanced penetration of targets in automobiles for example. Another member also has a .308 Remington bolt-gun. Those who demonstrate the best ability with said weapon will be the one who uses it if needed. All ammo is standardized. We are not a special forces A-Team by any means, but all have at least minimal knowledge of small unit tactics....flanking maneuvers, covering fire, movement, E&E and perimeter defense. That's likely enough to effectively deal with a group of several punks looking for an easy target. We also try to remain somewhat low profile. Though we have a larger group, our goal is to not appear to be sitting on a goldmine. We don't want any extra attention. So the intent is to remain as hidden as possible, not flaunting.  

This plan will give us the strength to sleep, yet maintain an effective guard over our stuff. We are large enough to repel any troublemakers (unless we are assaulted by a platoon sized element of trained individuals), yet small enough to be highly mobile and stealthy should the need to un-ass the area and hit the hills become necessary. We have several escape routes and points to meet should that need arise, all pre-planned. I have also stashed needed supplies such as food, extra ammo and other needed items in several strategic locations. While I much prefer the idea of being holed up in the comfort of my home, I don't want to be limited to a single option. Being versatile is key in a survival situation. If the situation is bad enough to warrant such an alert mode in the first place, then you never know what events might result. So prepare accordingly. I consider this mode of SHTF defense preparations akin to the firebases in Vietnam, minus the arty and tac air. Therefore the need to escape may be a possibility, although the threat is unlikely to have arty, air or a battalion size force also.

Now, if I was a lone actor with no support, I would want to be as light and mobile as possible. I would also want to be stealthy. So that means a light, compact reliable weapon that fires lightweight and effective ammo. That's a .223 carbine. The best bet with this option is to eliminate the need for long range sniper style shooting or hunting. Pre-stock food in and around your area. It's much easier, more reliable and much less noisy. When in such a situation, think like a member of an LRRP team. Your goal is to remain hidden and avoid contact if at all possible. If contact is not avoidable and shooting becomes necessary, hit hard and fast, then get the hell out of dodge faster.  For this style of operating, having a smaller, lighter weapon is desirable. And being alone and without resupply, lighter ammo means more available. That's also a plus.  

So my advice is to get/keep the 16" AR carbine if you are to be alone. If you have some assistance available, having a long range gun may also be a good option. But if you insist on slecting a larger caliber than .223, here's what I would choose:

-Earlier Springfield M1A that is built from US GI parts (they are sturdy)
-Have a gunsmith cut the barrel down as short as possible (and remain legal). Then re-thread and attach the flash hider.
-Add a Trijicon ACOG optic, preferably with crosshair reticle
-Stock up on USGI 20 round mags
-Locate and stock a substantial quantity of Hornady 155 gr AMAX ammo or one of the 150 gr Nosler Ballistic Tip loads

That would give you a nice do-all weapon. It would be more compact than a full size one, yet still offer adequate effectiveness. It would be quick to use both at close and longer ranges, It would be more suitable for use against medium game. It would offer enhanced penetration of cover. But it would still be heavier and the ammo heavier. So I'd still likely choose an AR carbine, But I mentioned this only if you have to have a .308 caliber weapon.

Whew, now I'll shut up for now!

-CH

Wow CH, you got a plan there!  Scary.  I've got a G17 and a G26, can I join? :)

I appreciate all the info and the thought in this thread. I'm looking to purchase my first AR-15 and all input helps me understand and figure out what I want to get as #1 rifle. I think I'm getting close to an understanding of all the options, versions, etc.

Thanks all,
KAC

If in your wildest SHTF fantasies, you find yourself in need of a fully automatic weapon or even a high capacity magazine....



...it is no doubt because you are an incompetent fool.

If one truly wishes to SURVIVE such unimaginable catastrophes and chaos, one must avoid any such conflict.
More often than not, these SHTF fantasies are nothing more than just that.

Quoted: Wow CH, you got a plan there!  Scary.  I've got a G17 and a G26, can I join? :) I appreciate all the info and the thought in this thread. I'm looking to purchase my first AR-15 and all input helps me understand and figure out what I want to get as #1 rifle. I think I'm getting close to an understanding of all the options, versions, etc. Thanks all, KAC

Sure, come on over. But beware our diet would consist of beans, rice and cornbread if the event lasts longer than a month or so. Hopefully none of my plan will ever have to be implemented. But it's nice to have a plan, just in case.

If you are looking at an AR purchase for defensive use, I highly suggest one item you purchase early on....that's a tac light. Go with something proven like a SureFire. My personal tastes are the 659 and 660 models, as they aren't overly glamorous and don't get in my way.

-CH

Quoted: Thanks for all the replys guys...  I guess I am leaning toward a nice AK in 7.62 at this point. Any recomendations in the $500-$700 price range?

I'd STILL suggest for a few more $$ get a DSA Stg58A.

Quoted: If in your wildest SHTF fantasies, you find yourself in need of a fully automatic weapon or even a high capacity magazine.... ...it is no doubt because you are an incompetent fool. If one truly wishes to SURVIVE such unimaginable catastrophes and chaos, one must avoid any such conflict. More often than not, these SHTF fantasies are nothing more than just that.

Until the wells run dry......
I'll assure you with 100% confidence of two things.
1 The American way of live is in jeopordy, and is on the brink of serious change
2 Your gonna die.

Now, whether 2 happens before 1 is of course the pressing question. From my perspective, that wont be the case. 1 is already here and knocking on our dorrs.

Uhh.... Okay.
Sure.

Quoted: If in your wildest SHTF fantasies, you find yourself in need of a fully automatic weapon or even a high capacity magazine.... ...it is no doubt because you are an incompetent fool.

+1

If there's ever a shtf situation (supervolcano explosion, mateor strike, alien invasion, whatever) where I run into a problem that cannot be handled with the 8 rounds in a garand, then I've royally fucked up.




These discussions are a little reminiscent to me of other junior officers who served as platoon commanders with me who were overly worried about their personal weapons.  They'd spend time agonizing over whether to pack the submachinegun only, or the handgun and the submachinegun.  Many concluded that the handgun was really "necessary" in addition to the smg for all sorts of eventualities they dreamed up in their fevered imagination.

My attitude was that if I ever NEEDED to pull out my handgun the entire platoon was completely screwed, and I had utterly failed in my job as a platoon commander.  As a result, my best friend and I both had our formal swords and white gloves packed as part of our mobilization kit - if we were going to go down as a result of our own stupidity and incompetence, we were going to go down swinging .  

Bolt action 30-06, AR15 and 1911 model.

No long winded excuses. They'll suffice.

Quoted: If in your wildest SHTF fantasies, you find yourself in need of a fully automatic weapon or even a high capacity magazine.... ...it is no doubt because you are an incompetent fool. If one truly wishes to SURVIVE such unimaginable catastrophes and chaos, one must avoid any such conflict. More often than not, these SHTF fantasies are nothing more than just that.

amen.
if  Bad Stuff is happening, GO SOMEWHERE ELSE.
learn from the Woily Toigur, egress, and fight when backed into a corner.hug.gif
BTW, a pistol is what you use to get TO your rifle.

Quoted: I'm shocked, shocked I tell you, to see someone so blind to the threat Zombies and other undead represent to modern living.

Aw crap - I forget about the zombies!!!  

I guess in an urban setting, with hordes of hungry zombies, an AR with a bunch of 30-round mags would be very helpful indeed!

ar15 with 16" barrle A2

If it isn't going to be an AR, then do yourself a real favor and shoot a Beretta Storm, it is the cats meow.  

Here's an idea that just may have been to simple to even think about but it's a viable choice.  Why not just get a good ol' 30/30 Win. Lever gun?  You'll have 7+1 shots in a full length carbine(20" bbl.), it's fast handling, no mags to buy so you'll have extra money to spend on ammo. With a 150gr bullet it'll more then work on deer out to 200yrds. and a 170gr bullet will kill an elk if you place your shots and keep shots to 100yrds or under.  With 125gr bullets it'll work for CQB even though it's not the latest "wizz bang" wonder auto it'll still hold it's own in the Real World.  You can pick up a nice, used 30/30 in a Winchester or Marlin brand for about $200 bucks or a new one for alittle more.  Jeff Cooper, none the less, has endorsed the ol' 30/30 lever gun as being a good SHTF rifle.  Think about it and kick it around a bit.  I know you probably want an semi-auto of some kind but don't count the lever action out of the running.  Another real plus is that it's got that PC cowboy look to it also, so you can get away with carring it in places where an AR or AK might draw unwanted attention.  Hope this hasn't confused you even more. LOL

Quoted: I'm shocked, shocked I tell you, to see someone so blind to the threat Zombies and other undead represent to modern living.

Swords work better against zombies than bullets. And since there will be so many you will eventually run out of ammo, or cook your barrel. Which ever comes first. Swords will keep cutting flesh & bone till the day is done.

Quoted: Quoted: I'm shocked, shocked I tell you, to see someone so blind to the threat Zombies and other undead represent to modern living. Swords work better against zombies than bullets. And since there will be so many you will eventually run out of ammo, or cook your barrel. Which ever comes first. Swords will keep cutting flesh & bone till the day is done.

Your arm wouldn't give out, but your barrel has melted into a pool of steel?

There is no single SHTF rifle.

.30-06 Bolt action hunting rifle for taking almost any North Amer game
AR-15 A2 Carbine (16" or 14.5" M4) for the zombies and varmints and ...

Optional: Pump action 12 ga for birdies

If pistol, 1911 or Sig 220 in .45ACP

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: I'm shocked, shocked I tell you, to see someone so blind to the threat Zombies and other undead represent to modern living. Swords work better against zombies than bullets. And since there will be so many you will eventually run out of ammo, or cook your barrel. Which ever comes first. Swords will keep cutting flesh & bone till the day is done. Your arm wouldn't give out, but your barrel has melted into a pool of steel?

Not my arm! Well, at least not my right arm.

Quoted: Here's an idea that just may have been to simple to even think about but it's a viable choice.  Why not just get a good ol' 30/30 Win. Lever gun?  You'll have 7+1 shots in a full length carbine(20" bbl.), it's fast handling, no mags to buy so you'll have extra money to spend on ammo. With a 150gr bullet it'll more then work on deer out to 200yrds. and a 170gr bullet will kill an elk if you place your shots and keep shots to 100yrds or under.  With 125gr bullets it'll work for CQB even though it's not the latest "wizz bang" wonder auto it'll still hold it's own in the Real World.  You can pick up a nice, used 30/30 in a Winchester or Marlin brand for about $200 bucks or a new one for alittle more.  Jeff Cooper, none the less, has endorsed the ol' 30/30 lever gun as being a good SHTF rifle.  Think about it and kick it around a bit.  I know you probably want an semi-auto of some kind but don't count the lever action out of the running.  Another real plus is that it's got that PC cowboy look to it also, so you can get away with carring it in places where an AR or AK might draw unwanted attention.  Hope this hasn't confused you even more. LOL

Yep, I absolutely love my lever action 30-30

Quoted: Here's an idea that just may have been to simple to even think about but it's a viable choice.  Why not just get a good ol' 30/30 Win. Lever gun?  You'll have 7+1 shots in a full length carbine(20" bbl.), it's fast handling, no mags to buy so you'll have extra money to spend on ammo. With a 150gr bullet it'll more then work on deer out to 200yrds. and a 170gr bullet will kill an elk if you place your shots and keep shots to 100yrds or under.  With 125gr bullets it'll work for CQB even though it's not the latest "wizz bang" wonder auto it'll still hold it's own in the Real World.  You can pick up a nice, used 30/30 in a Winchester or Marlin brand for about $200 bucks or a new one for alittle more.  Jeff Cooper, none the less, has endorsed the ol' 30/30 lever gun as being a good SHTF rifle.  Think about it and kick it around a bit.  I know you probably want an semi-auto of some kind but don't count the lever action out of the running.  Another real plus is that it's got that PC cowboy look to it also, so you can get away with carring it in places where an AR or AK might draw unwanted attention.  Hope this hasn't confused you even more. LOL

Plus, you get to feel a little like John Wayne


Actually, I really like the idea of a 30/30 lever action as a SHTF gun.  I really shuld have one, and I feel naked for not having one!

Quoted: Quoted: Here's an idea that just may have been to simple to even think about but it's a viable choice.  Why not just get a good ol' 30/30 Win. Lever gun?  You'll have 7+1 shots in a full length carbine(20" bbl.), it's fast handling, no mags to buy so you'll have extra money to spend on ammo. With a 150gr bullet it'll more then work on deer out to 200yrds. and a 170gr bullet will kill an elk if you place your shots and keep shots to 100yrds or under.  With 125gr bullets it'll work for CQB even though it's not the latest "wizz bang" wonder auto it'll still hold it's own in the Real World.  You can pick up a nice, used 30/30 in a Winchester or Marlin brand for about $200 bucks or a new one for alittle more.  Jeff Cooper, none the less, has endorsed the ol' 30/30 lever gun as being a good SHTF rifle.  Think about it and kick it around a bit.  I know you probably want an semi-auto of some kind but don't count the lever action out of the running.  Another real plus is that it's got that PC cowboy look to it also, so you can get away with carring it in places where an AR or AK might draw unwanted attention.  Hope this hasn't confused you even more. LOL Plus, you get to feel a little like John Wayne Actually, I really like the idea of a 30/30 lever action as a SHTF gun.  I really shuld have one, and I feel naked for not having one!

Well, gee DK-Prof, get down to your local gun dealer and get "dressed". I'm sure it wouldn't set ya' back much and ammo isn't all that bad price wise for a non-military ctg.  I think it's about $7 bucks a box around here.  By the way, there's a bomb on the LasVegas strip, wonder how many are taking bets on wether it goes off or not. LOL

You can get a Winchester Model 94 lever action 30-30 for around 400 bucks or so. Also available in the popular pistol cartridges as well i believe (.357, .44)

Quoted: Quoted: If in your wildest SHTF fantasies, you find yourself in need of a fully automatic weapon or even a high capacity magazine.... ...it is no doubt because you are an incompetent fool. If one truly wishes to SURVIVE such unimaginable catastrophes and chaos, one must avoid any such conflict. More often than not, these SHTF fantasies are nothing more than just that. Until the wells run dry...... I'll assure you with 100% confidence of two things. 1 The American way of live is in jeopordy, and is on the brink of serious change 2 Your gonna die. Now, whether 2 happens before 1 is of course the pressing question. From my perspective, that wont be the case. 1 is already here and knocking on our dorrs.

+1

The fantasy is that everything will continue to be OK or that any problems will be avoidabe.

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: If in your wildest SHTF fantasies, you find yourself in need of a fully automatic weapon or even a high capacity magazine.... ...it is no doubt because you are an incompetent fool. If one truly wishes to SURVIVE such unimaginable catastrophes and chaos, one must avoid any such conflict. More often than not, these SHTF fantasies are nothing more than just that. Until the wells run dry...... I'll assure you with 100% confidence of two things. 1 The American way of live is in jeopordy, and is on the brink of serious change 2 Your gonna die. Now, whether 2 happens before 1 is of course the pressing question. From my perspective, that wont be the case. 1 is already here and knocking on our dorrs. +1 The fantasy is that everything will continue to be OK or that any problems will be avoidabe.

I dont want to pull it off topic, but I fully believe we're going to see a DRASTIC change in the way of life withint he next 10 years, possibly sooner. And it will be due to the diminishing production of oil, which our ENTIRE way of life is based upon.
Thats why in a SHTF situation for *me*< I think long term, Very, very long term. A SHTF situation (again, FOR ME) isnt a week away from home due to a Hurricane, or riots in the streets case of a court case. To me, a SHTF situation is one where the general way of life is altered drastically and most likely permanently. As such, I look for things which can get me through the first panic (A good semi auto) then something long term, such as a bow or crossbow.

Kind of like the Depression of the 30's, not and "end of the world" kind of thing but a "life has gotten harder" deal.  Yep, I can see that taking place in the next 10 years or so, at least in most of our life times.