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Posted: 9/21/2004 7:48:29 PM EDT
[#1]
+1 this site is too valuable a resource for general discussion to get it shut down |
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Posted: 9/21/2004 7:54:48 PM EDT
[#2]
details!! we want details!
who tried to get ar15.com shut down and why? and which governmental agency would even handle this kind of thing? I'm not trying to sound skeptical, I'm just curious. |
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Posted: 9/21/2004 7:57:43 PM EDT
[#3]
Please tell me you didn't just tell us you'd rather collaborate than fight. And your implication that you've been served a subpoena under the PATRIOT act....I sincerely hope that isn't true. And if it is, I sure as hell hope you didn't just roll over for them. |
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Posted: 9/21/2004 7:58:28 PM EDT
[#4]
I AM skeptical. And curious. |
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Posted: 9/21/2004 8:13:06 PM EDT
[#6]
Be skeptical if you wish, I can't discuss things. There are people here who can attest to a number of incidents because they were involved. At this time there's very little to worry about, but there are people who monitor the site on all sides. My main concern isn't the gov, but the anti-gunners who just love to watch the infighting and "kill them all" comments.
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Posted: 9/21/2004 8:16:32 PM EDT
[#7]
why can't you talk about it?
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Posted: 9/21/2004 8:23:16 PM EDT
[#8]
Cuz its a secret silly goose The chair is against the wall The Bun is in the Oven The Salt is in the Shaker. |
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Posted: 9/21/2004 8:26:31 PM EDT
[#9]
Uh, because it's an exaggeration. When you look at the DMCA fights & the dismissed Ford Company suit against blueoval.com, you find that goverment interference with web sites is not at all well tolerated by U.S. Courts. Is 2600.com still up and functioning? Uh, yes. Point and Match!. 
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Posted: 9/21/2004 8:29:44 PM EDT
[#10]
 
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Posted: 9/21/2004 8:32:33 PM EDT
[#11]
You tried to make this point in 9/2001 and again now, and it still is nonsense. Let me be clear on this. You cannot make generalizations about what few acts of domestic terrorism have taken place in regard to religion because the few domestic terrorists had no connection with religion. BECAUSE: Timothy McVeigh and Terry Nichols wanted revenge for the 51-day standoff Waco, Texas. The Unabomber's manifesto was about Industrial Society And Its Future. The Earth Liberation Front is a bunch of fanantical PETA and Earth First! types. BECAUSE Timothy McVeigh and Terry Nichols The Unabomber The Earth Liberation Front, fanantical PETA, and Earth First! ARE NOT praised, sermonized about, or worshiped as MARTYRS in temples, synagogues, or churches. NOW, there is a "Religion of Peace" in the world who have leaders in many countries that hold services where IT IS RECORDED that they make long sermons about destroying Christians, Jews, etc, etc. Since there are many TENS of THOUSANDS of followers in various parts of the world, NODDING IN AGREEMENT TO THOSE SERMONS, YES, generalizations can be made. I could walk into the largest mall in St. Louis and shout "K-ll all the ---'s" in refering to the types that kill our soldiers and civilians and while I might get stares, no Secret Service agent would be arresting me. That's what we call "Freedom of Speech" in this country. Not on your board, true. But everywhere else, yes. I'm just sad you just don't "get it." And people obviously have to leave to practice the freedom elsewhere. |
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Posted: 9/21/2004 8:37:17 PM EDT
[#12]
well I was just curious as to why he couldn't discuss the "attacks". If it was legal in nature from a private entity threatenting to sue him in civil court then what were the minor victories "they" won? And who sued? and why? And why can't he name them?
if its the government threatening suit, as his statement implies, then who in the government is suing? Homeland security? The Secret Service? If you feel that your freedoms are being suppressed by threat of the government the worst thing you can do is help them cover it up. It just doesn't seem to make much sense. |
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Posted: 9/21/2004 8:41:16 PM EDT
[#13]
It's secret squirrel shit. |
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Posted: 9/21/2004 8:42:59 PM EDT
[#14]
there. fixed it for you. |
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Posted: 9/21/2004 8:45:09 PM EDT
[#15]
Have we become too PC? No.
Is the pendulum swinging that way? Most definitely. I understand about Juan having to walk a fine line between anarchy and "let's pretend" but I think that things have gotten a little too "eggshell" lately. I started lurking this board right after 9/11 so I've seen a pretty fair share of ups and downs but the overall tone of the site has shifted noticeably in the past few months. I've bailed on several sites that got too PC for my tastes (GlockTalk and THR) and this place hasn't gotten to that level. If it does I'll simply find another to call home. Ultimately it comes down to a board's owner as to how a site is run. First Ammendment rights do not apply. As much as I gnash my teeth at some of the stuff that goes on here, I know beyond stating my opinion, there's little that can be done. If the day arrives that ARFcom crosses my personal "PC Event Horizon" I'll simply discontinue my Team Member status and move on. There's little else that can be done. 
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Posted: 9/21/2004 8:49:08 PM EDT
[#16]
Wow. You've proven you're at least as adept at quoting as Michael Moore. I'll rephrase: It doesn't seem realistic. |
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Posted: 9/21/2004 8:56:20 PM EDT
[#17]
I don't feel ar-15.com is PC at all.
It does what is needed to protect its ass. We all do the same. |
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Posted: 9/21/2004 9:00:31 PM EDT
[#18]
I personally know there has been government intervention with the site. Skeptics be assuaged. |
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Posted: 9/21/2004 9:08:43 PM EDT
[#19]
put up yer dukes partner thems fightin werds. --Edited to add - Michael Moore? How rude. |
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Posted: 9/21/2004 9:09:42 PM EDT
[#20]
And I guess they said that if you told anyone what they said that theyd come shoot your dog huh?
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Posted: 9/21/2004 9:16:01 PM EDT
[#21]
I don't believe anyone on this cite would prevent you from making THOSE generalizations. There's nothing wrong with generalizations like: All Al Qaeda members are evil and should die. All muslim terrorists are evil and should die. All people who support extremist terrorism and the murder of innocents are evil and should die. There IS something wrong with generalizations like: Every single muslim - man, woman and child - is evil and should die.
There have ALWAYS been people who have left the site because it doesn't "fit" with their preferences. Maybe someone wants to post pictures of naked women (didn't SteyrAug get banned, or storm off or something, over that very issue?), or maybe someone else wants to post information on how to make and install your very own DIAS. Hell, some NAMBLA sicko could show up and want to post stories about his interests. They also see their "freedom" being curtailed when they're told NO. Privately operated internet sites are not about freedom of expression. Your freedom on a private site is the freedom of CHOICE - whether to frequent the site or not, and GoatBoy has the freedom to set whatever rules and standards he wants for the site. He will make the choices he believes are best for the site, and some members might leave, and others will stay, and new ones might arrive. This is how the site works. I'm sure GoatBoy pays a LOT of attention to threads like this, but ultimately it is the larger trends that will guide his decisions, not individual cases or gripes. Just my opinion |
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Posted: 9/21/2004 9:23:00 PM EDT
[#22]
Think what you want, I'm not here to prove anything to anyone. Nobody here is responsible for this shit but me, and since it's my ass on the line I could care less if you're even aware of the situation. As for the examples above, neither of them is involved in threats against other people's lives. Sure I may take it a bit further by not letting generalized threats to be posted, but all of that draws attention. Go on any site which allows full freedom of speech and post that you want to kill your postman, or your neighbor, or a local political officer. Wait, perhaps you should post about how you think using a bomb to renovate a local school, or a library, maybe a church, or any other place, would be a swell idea. Wait, I got it... why dont you say we should kill all priests because so many have been busted for molesting children! Hmmm, maybe too much, how about we just say kill all the drunk drivers because they're responsible for rising insurance costs in this country... oh and those DUI bastards too since they're just as guilty, but they just happen to have more time to sober up before they got busted! Let's not stop there, why not spout off about people who drink in general, let's kill them all right??? Once you take to threats against life, then the problem is not one that is easily contained. This type of thing WILL become a real problem, especially when people who want to see you fall are watching your every move. Your response is probably along the lines of "no shit I wouldn't say any of those things, I'm not stupid!" and the reason for that is simple, you know that saying those things could land you in a SHITLOAD of trouble! Well, this is why we avoid these types of comments and actively moderate them out. Even general threats and calls to "kill them all" will be met with a very strong response from the site. If you want to risk your own ass, then by all means go put up a site and plaster threats until they come lock you up, but all I ask is that you don't do it here. With that, I need sleep and am off to bed. This has been a real fun night and made me think on why I bother running this place. I've been meaning to do an upgrade to the site which requires a good amount of down time, perhaps this is the weekend to do it. I could use the break. I'd expect a few hours, but perhaps a few days would be best so people can calm themselves down. |
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Posted: 9/21/2004 9:25:58 PM EDT
[#23]
It's always been to PC for my taste since I been here. Never could get in any of my favorite group bashing fests, but it is handled more evenly now with less privlidges for those in the secret handshake club to get away with stuff that others get stomped for.
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Posted: 9/21/2004 9:26:57 PM EDT
[#24]
No If you want to advocate genocide, go visit stormfront or some other appropriate gathering for your ilk... It's getting to the point where the 'Muslim Threads' should join the HEAT, MARPAT, TACPOINT, and nude BOTD on the no-no list... Would make life alot easier for everyone... |
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Posted: 9/21/2004 9:31:02 PM EDT
[#25]
You know I make every effort to ensure this isn't the case, but I'm not active on the forums 90%+ of the time and up to date am not psychic. If things aren't being handled fairly, then I expect it to be brought up to staff, senior staff, and myself if need be. Now I don't want emails about so and so calling me a "girlie man" or "crybaby", I would like just the info on when someone gets away with something or if someone is treated too harshly. Without info, it's hard to act. |
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Posted: 9/21/2004 9:35:15 PM EDT
[#26]
You obviously care if we're aware of the situtation because you've mentioned it in 3 separate posts. So why can't you give us any details? I'm not advocating a policy of freer speech than there is in the real world. I don't advocate allowing people to post death threats or bombing churches etc as that is illegal! How can you be legally held responsible for what someone else writes/says ? |
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Posted: 9/21/2004 9:37:37 PM EDT
[#27]
Are we (members) given the same ammount of information as the Site Sponsors when it comes to ARFcom being watched over by the feds? Or have we become your sheeple?
 Just wondering, since you do have my ISP#, full name, address, etc.
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Posted: 9/21/2004 9:46:21 PM EDT
[#28]
Because I'm responsible for what's said on this site and how we manage it.
As for me bringing it up, I didnt bring up anything remotely specific about ARFCOM except in one other thread. (Let's see one guy tried to get us shutdown for selling illegal firearms, little did they know we don't sell ANY firearms... but whatever. Some fool got some results by paying attention and getting our paypal account for Gunstock shut down. (More on that later I promise!) More fun stuff like that which I've had to deal with since the AWB expired.) What I mentioned in this thread has happened to friends, enemies, and is also in our past. There's nothing recent with us having any gov issues or problems so no worries. All items in the past are also not up for discussion. (No choice on that, not that I would discuss them openly anyhow.) Now I need to get some sleep, it's been a shitty evening and I hate for it to end... |
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Posted: 9/21/2004 9:56:51 PM EDT
[#29]
Yes it's quite PC here.
It's a nice change from Full-Auto.  But I do think some of the ultra-PC attitudes regarding our enemy in war is going too far. And some Mods DO have a very hypersensitive PC streak to their enforcement of the CoCs. But hey - this ain't my house and it ain't my party. I'm just a roving drunk stopping by for a quick brew then moving on to the next house party - maybe the next door neighbor will have some fucking FROZEN VODKA!!! Ahem... Now imagine if EVERY gun board was just like Full-Auto (not to pick on FA but... ya' know) - why would anyone want to go anywhere else if everywhere else was the same? But hey, if I can't say EVERYTHING I want to in a vein-popping rant about Mooslims HERE - I know there's other places I can. |
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Posted: 9/21/2004 9:57:53 PM EDT
[#30]
I try to store as little information on people as possible and clear out logs as often as I feel comfortable doing so. The only information kept is IP logs and posts. If you've posted your personal info, email, phone, etc... then you're on yer own. All other information is removed because I don't want to be responsible for everyone's actions. As to who watches this place, we're not given any schedules or asked for information. It would be safe to say the site is monitored by the feds at some level, we are aware the ATF checks it on a regular basis (they also recommend it to people which we found really cool!), and we know people in the military keep an eye on the EE for stolen items to show up. All in all we don't see much in terms of demands or legal docs, but it does happen. If you're not doing anything illegal, then no worries, but if you are, I would seriously watch what you say in public! (Ok I REALLY am going now!) |
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Posted: 9/21/2004 10:07:26 PM EDT
[#31]
Sounds good.
 I guess I just wanted to know if you have to keep a copy of all checks ARFcom receives. So you don't have the IRS crawling up your crack off the site.
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Posted: 9/21/2004 10:21:39 PM EDT
[#32]
What...you mean we have the same high standards as CBS or Al Jazeera.....or we're as circumspect as Alec Baldwin or Spike Lee, the well respected Hollywood Liberal Icons...or our members are held in the same high regard in national matters as NOW or the Black Caucus....
No, we're not too PC, it's just a different game for us. Maybe we should enjoy having some standards. Soldiers have high standards..... |
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Posted: 9/21/2004 10:31:44 PM EDT
[#33]
It's not just the AR15.com that is too P.C. it's the entire free world. AR15.com if just part of the free world current trend to being to P.C.
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Posted: 9/21/2004 10:56:44 PM EDT
[#34]
WRONGO Prof. Happened to several of us just after 9/11/2001 And look at the pole again on page one. You're in the minority
Oh gee Mr. Prof, I'm not a member of any other firearm forums, car forums, satellite forums, I've only got you to guide me. Just because someone or a small cabal runs a web forum does not make them “right.” And if they take money or an appropriation from the public for in exchange for memberships, then what what you say is wrong. If you’re going to spout that high-minded ----, then DK-Prof:, dig in your own freaking pocket and refund EVERYONE’S Team Membership money and then it will again be a PRIVATE site for you and “the family.” Otherwise, I’m betting the IRS considers arfcom a BUSINESS and therefore it’s got more public characteristics than private. If you buy STOCK in a business, {or a membership} you have the privilege of speaking up. Forgot about that, huh? Nothing makes me madder than statements like yours above. If you take you my money, then act like you took it. What a transparent misrepresentation. |
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Posted: 9/21/2004 11:00:03 PM EDT
[#35]
+1 |
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Posted: 9/21/2004 11:51:54 PM EDT
[#36]
I'm sure anybody would call ARFCOM a business, and that business has rules just like any other business. I will point out this from the CoC
The following are an evolving series of rules for conduct in the forums. Those who choose to break these rules may be warned, have their account temporarily suspended, or be removed from this Website at the discretion of the Staff. Serious violations such as threats of violence or advocating illegal or criminal acts may result in legal action. and 4.) Posting comments or links in support of illegal activities including, but not limited to, threats against the life of any living person, doing harm to a state or federal official, or advocating the overthrow of the government. Which I guess applies to Muslims. Yes they take your money,but they also like any other business make the rules and are very up front about in the CoC . |
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Posted: 9/21/2004 11:55:15 PM EDT
[#37]
Businesses are not public, they are still private... I know, I run one (for now), and have worked for several others... A business owner can post rules and you are trespassing if you violate them... Customer or not... The rules are posted... Break them enough and you get banned... |
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Posted: 9/22/2004 12:31:48 AM EDT
[#38]
I didn't start the site. The people that did and the people that maintain the site have much bigger concerns than I do as someone that just visits every now and again. It's their house and, as a visitor (and no, I don't think my $20. buys me a piece of anything) I respect their rules or I can leave.
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Posted: 9/22/2004 12:43:09 AM EDT
[#39]
You may well be right but if this site disturbs you so much then why do you stay on as a member ? pre-ban would be happy to have your money (if you are not already a member there) and will let you (more or less) say about anything. 
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Posted: 9/22/2004 12:46:11 AM EDT
[#40]
Concur. |
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Posted: 9/22/2004 1:51:31 AM EDT
[#41]
+1 |
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Posted: 9/22/2004 2:51:40 AM EDT
[#42]
No. Maybe some folks need to learn how to act in public. Yeah, I know that the site is a private site, but it is like going out in public, and some people can't quite grasp how to be civil or even what the word means.
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Posted: 9/22/2004 6:19:23 AM EDT
[#43]
BTT for the morning crew.
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Posted: 9/22/2004 7:19:50 AM EDT
[#44]
When you signed up for AR15.com, you assented to the terms and conditions of membership and the CoC. If you don't like those rules or can't abide by them, then you shouldn't have joined. Your measley $20 paid membership merely buys you an avatar but your actions here are still governed by the CoC. It does not buy you stock in AR15.com, special privileges or any sort of ownership or management rights in AR15.com |
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Posted: 9/22/2004 7:22:23 AM EDT
[#45]
In discussions like these, it doesn’t take long for the conformist, neo-fascist to start their lectures and veiled threats with calls for the disgruntled to make a swift exit. While far removed from the brutal animal of the 1930’s, nevertheless, today’s Internet forum fascist still stands for a centralized autocratic control of public forums headed by a domineering leader, and suppression of even mild disagreement via stern admonishments and threats of banishment. Notice how the discussion of speaking freely is now equated with trespassing in a quote posted above. As this thread grows, you will tend to see more negative comments against free expression of political philosophy by a vocal cabal. They will more vocally state that the only acceptable member has the like veneer of gung-ho, jolly-good-fellow false heartiness and agrees to toe the narrow line of their pompous dogmatism by narrowly interpreting the rules or policies affecting people. The less enlightened, that are more comfortable with a rigidly stratified status-quo, can't even relate to considering disagreement, and when better words fail them, fall back on the old saw of quoting rules as in below:
Oh, now look at the post directly below. He trips into every stereotype I listed above, and then veers into the sociopathic with a sick anology between free expression and flinging feces! Some people will go to any extreme to make disagreement look ugly. Until quite ugly their very writing becomes.  |
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Posted: 9/22/2004 7:37:03 AM EDT
[#46]
Wow. Brilliant FnBrowning. You can quote. I'm really impressed.
If you so hate the way this internet forum is run, why did you join and buy a membership in the first place? Did you not read the CoC before you joined? You are a guest here and will either abide by the rules of the house or you'll be shown the door. Nothing new there, and nothing different than what would be expected outside of the internet. If a guest comes into your house and abides by your rules I'm sure they're quite welcome. However, if your guest starts flinging feces on your wife I'm sure you'd show them the door. Same thing here; you're in someone else house, try not to shit on the sofa please. You're welcome to disagree here, but do it within the rules and the CoC. |
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Posted: 9/22/2004 8:09:55 AM EDT
[#47]
Oh great, FNBrowning decided to IM his reply to me...
Bottom line here, FNBrowning, is that you chose to join this site and abide by the rules. No one twisted your arm or held a gun to your head. You read (or should have read) the rules and the CoC before joining and when youjoined you assented to those terms. If you can't abide by those rules then you shouldn't have joined, or don't be surprised when you get shitcanned. And no, I'm not a mod or bouncer, and I don't have any more rights here than you, but if you constantly break the rules, I'm sure a mod or administrator will ban your ass. What happened to Balzac is a perfect example. Me a conformist? Not by a longshot, pal. But I will abide by the rules and show respect for my hosts. If that makes me a conformist in your eyes so be it. Not that it makes any difference since I really don't give a shit what you think of me. |
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Posted: 9/22/2004 8:16:14 AM EDT
[#48]
Well- the reason I felt the need to explain is that you're prattling on about "freedom of expression" on a privately owned board, and that's usually something that complete newbies and people with no understanding at all about how the real world works do.
You sure are defensive. Lighten up Frances  I was just telling you my OPINION - need need to take it so personally.
There is NO misrepresentation here - only a grotesque misconception on your part. You did NOT buy OWNERSHIP in ar15.com when you sent in $20, $60 or $100. You bought the right to POST here, within the rules and regulations set by the owners of the board. You being able to post on this board - like you are doing in this thread - is what you purchased. how are you not getting that? Where is the misrepresentation? The only problem here is that you do not seem to comprehend what you purchased, and you mistakenly think that buying a mambership somehow entitles you to have a say in site policy and be a part owner. Sheesh - whay are you having such a hard time understanding such a simple fact. For someone who claims to be such an old hand at the internet, you sure don't come across that way. |
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Posted: 9/22/2004 8:22:35 AM EDT
[#49]
Just to clarify... mods do not have the power to lock or ban accounts... we can lock or edit threads which appear in forums we moderate... and that's it! We have no super-powers, the polyester super-hero costumes are very un-flattering to my hips... and contrary to what people might wish to believe... mods do not get a pass on the rules. Either do staff for that matter. I will admit that people who have been here for awhile might be given a warning or two more... especially if they are a known commodity to the community. However, if they abuse that extra chance they were given, they will most assuredly go.
Somebody else pointed it out in another thread. Balzac received chance and chance and chance again. Whether you agree with his being banned or not, surely you must admit he has been tossed a few times and allowed back. For that to happen repeatedly tells me one of two things. Staff screwed up and were not clear as to what was and what wasn't acceptable behavior... OR Balzac knew where he ran afoul, was given repeated chances, and still could not participate in a manner that did not get him banned. Here is my conundrum. I know both Beekeeper and Balzac. I like both of them. I don't think Balzac is a racist or a hate monger. I don't think Beekeeper is a lock-happy power tripping JBT or whatever certain people might wish to call him. I see arguments for both. But this is what I wonder... if Balzac were allowed back, is there any reason to believe we wouldn't be having this discussion a couple months down the road? Since Beekeeper is executing the policies of the board, is there any reason to assume things would be different if Beekeeper wasn't making the call? |
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Posted: 9/22/2004 8:24:42 AM EDT
[#50]
Keeping in time with the local spelling nazi...... It's coarse..not course. |
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