User Panel
User Panel
User Panel
|
Posted: 11/17/2019 10:08:10 PM EDT
[#1]
Quote HistoryQuoted: This one was at least as good. https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/714CVguNA3L.jpg |
|
|
|
Posted: 11/17/2019 10:23:54 PM EDT
[#2]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Heard an A-10 pilot on the news back then: "Load me up...they ain't even shootin' back" Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Kinda sad that all our Abrams and Warthogs never got a chance to whack all those Commie T72s  |
|
|
|
Posted: 11/17/2019 10:26:57 PM EDT
[#3]
If you’ve never heard of Clyde Lee Conrad....this is what he did when he was the long serving 8ID G2 Comsec custodian. And to think all the time in BK, nobody ever thought to ask how an NCO in his position always had a new Mercedes and a high speed Xerox at this house. Thankfully we never had to answer a real world LARIAT ADVANCE and that SOB died in a German prison.
I served in Air Troop at Sickels from 81-84. My wakeup to the real world is when we took our TOW I basic load to Miesau to get new TOW 2....I did the math and started whining that they only gave me enough missiles for our AH-1S’s to reload once....they laughed at me! That is when we got serious about finding where 503ABC and 8 CAB were planning their FAARPs! Kudo’s to certain 3 letter agencies that got into STASI Hqs in Berlin as the wall fell....to discover this.... https://digitalarchive.wilsoncenter.org/document/112680.pdf?v=5344f405a548d44ef972018d29dda382 |
|
|
|
Posted: 11/17/2019 10:35:45 PM EDT
[#4]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Kruezberg Monestary. You know what I'm talking about. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
We were called speed bumps. Our whole purpose was to stop the gap, slow the gap down, do whatever we could to halt the invasion. Our commander said in reality we had a life expectancy of roughly 10 seconds. Out of 21 years active duty, 4 army and 17 CG, the 2 years I spent in Fulda were the best. We worked hard and played harder and the command let us live life to the fullest. I miss those days. Spent 5 years of my time on The Rock. |
|
|
|
Posted: 11/17/2019 10:36:37 PM EDT
[#5]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I was stationed 10 mins away from there. Well, 30 mins drunk on a mtn bike. Wildchicken for the win!  Bn runs!!!!
|
|
|
|
Posted: 11/17/2019 10:39:28 PM EDT
[#6]
Seems like there was some classified stuff the Russians released a few years back. Maybe I read it on the UK’s Guardian site, can’t recall. What I do remember was that the WP would have launched preemptive tactical nuclear strikes on NATO installations/Airfields in West Germany, Netherlands and Belgium.
Either way, a third European war would have gone nuclear within a day. The communists breaching Fulda, in hindsight, wasn’t that terrifying. What’s chilling was the Soviet’s reaction to Able Archer and the Pershing IRBM deployments in 83. Peter Pry’s book, War Scare, covers this pretty well |
|
|
|
Posted: 11/17/2019 10:41:29 PM EDT
[#7]
From my understanding, it was the plan. Nothing else was going to stop the Soviet Armored assault.
|
|
|
|
Posted: 11/17/2019 10:41:40 PM EDT
[#8]
|
|
|
|
Posted: 11/17/2019 10:47:23 PM EDT
[#9]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
This is good. I read the paperback in 1980. The hardcover was published in 1978. https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/41BGAs4jGmL._SX324_BO1,204,203,200_.jpg https://www.amazon.com/Third-World-War-August-1985/dp/0425044777/ |
|
|
|
Posted: 11/17/2019 10:48:14 PM EDT
[#10]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Bn runs!!!!And I'm surprised that Wildflecken is mentioned in passing in the linked Doc. There was a LARGE diverse force stationed there until 91 ish when it was handed back over to the Germans. the mention 5-68 a few times. Nothing on 1-68 at all. 1-68 was one of the runners to the Gap, we were to be the second speed bump. Lots of training in MOPP 4. Which sucked as a turret mechanic. I rather miss being there, even with the threat we knew who the enemy was. We worked hard and drank like fish. Hell, I'd take a duty station like the chicken in a heartbeat. Damn good Mtbiking, and the farm girls sunning themselves topless by the trails. |
|
|
|
Posted: 11/17/2019 10:49:40 PM EDT
[#11]
WARPAC opens up with tactical nukes and chemicals in the opening minutes. That was their doctrine. We were going to hold off on nukes until we were losing... Ivan doesn't care about that "reserved" NATO doctrine.
Best case: NATO loses less bad than WARPAC, Europe is a wreck, but no NUDETs in CONUS or Russia. Worst case: NATO loses less bad than WARPAC, but it's so bad that nobody cares who lost less badly. |
|
|
|
Posted: 11/17/2019 11:08:16 PM EDT
[#12]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I think Clancy nailed how it would have went down, for the most part. I think our conventional forces would have done better than many think. |
|
|
|
Posted: 11/17/2019 11:16:36 PM EDT
[#13]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
More than a few German houses fell victim to US armor cutting corners too tight over the years 
|
|
|
|
Posted: 11/18/2019 12:11:23 AM EDT
[#14]
Question for tank people in the know...
How did the M60A3 TTS stack up to the T72A? Looking at wiki, it says the US had upgraded all 750 of it's regular M60A3s (in theater? all over the world? I dunno) to A3 TTS by the end of 1983. And a total of almost 2,000 M60A1 to M60A3 TTS (no end date given on that figure). The T72A had a laser ranger finder and and electronic fire control (how good were they qualitatively?) but... no thermals. Didn't TTS play a significant role in the US utterly curbstoming the Iraqi army in the Gulf War? So how are latest and greatest whiz-bang M60A3 TTS's going to stack up against T72As in, say, 1985? |
|
|
|
Posted: 11/18/2019 12:51:14 AM EDT
[#15]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Question for tank people in the know... How did the M60A3 TTS stack up to the T72A? Looking at wiki, it says the US had upgraded all 750 of it's regular M60A3s (in theater? all over the world? I dunno) to A3 TTS by the end of 1983. And a total of almost 2,000 M60A1 to M60A3 TTS (no end date given on that figure). The T72A had a laser ranger finder and and electronic fire control (how good were they qualitatively?) but... no thermals. Didn't TTS play a significant role in the US utterly curbstoming the Iraqi army in the Gulf War? So how are latest and greatest whiz-bang M60A3 TTS's going to stack up against T72As in, say, 1985? |
|
|
|
Posted: 11/18/2019 1:01:50 AM EDT
[#16]
1/11 ACR Fulda 75-78
|
|
|
|
Posted: 11/18/2019 1:05:21 AM EDT
[#17]
Germany would have veen gassed, slimed, and nuked.
|
|
|
|
Posted: 11/18/2019 1:10:23 AM EDT
[#18]
B Troop 3/7th Cav Border Patrol 1983-1985 Garry Owen
|
|
|
|
Posted: 11/18/2019 1:12:15 AM EDT
[#19]
The Neutron Bomb was the proposed solution to Soviet armour pouring through the Fulda Gap.
Jimmy Carter was a bit too timid to deploy it. But, my understanding is that variable yield nuclear warheads of the era could be configured to maximize neutron flux and minimize blast and give you essentially a neutron weapon. |
|
|
|
Posted: 11/18/2019 1:26:57 AM EDT
[#20]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Question for tank people in the know... How did the M60A3 TTS stack up to the T72A? Looking at wiki, it says the US had upgraded all 750 of it's regular M60A3s (in theater? all over the world? I dunno) to A3 TTS by the end of 1983. And a total of almost 2,000 M60A1 to M60A3 TTS (no end date given on that figure). The T72A had a laser ranger finder and and electronic fire control (how good were they qualitatively?) but... no thermals. Didn't TTS play a significant role in the US utterly curbstoming the Iraqi army in the Gulf War? So how are latest and greatest whiz-bang M60A3 TTS's going to stack up against T72As in, say, 1985? |
|
|
|
Posted: 11/18/2019 9:24:47 AM EDT
[#21]
Wasn't much to do on the Chicken but at least we had new run movies every Saturday night and a Burger King. The NCO club bringing in talent was always fun.
My Tank platoon visited the Fulda Gap and our GDP (General Deployment Place) or as we called it (Goto Die Place). Was a little overwhelming to visit it in person as a young 19 yr old Private. Realizing what would happen if the balloon had gone up. |
|
|
|
Posted: 11/18/2019 9:34:49 AM EDT
[#22]
Soviet doctrine figured the use of tactical nuclear weapons from minute one.
It never was going to be just a conventional conflict. |
|
|
|
Posted: 11/18/2019 9:37:06 AM EDT
[#23]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Heard an A-10 pilot on the news back then: "Load me up...they ain't even shootin' back" Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Kinda sad that all our Abrams and Warthogs never got a chance to whack all those Commie T72s A lot has been said about the A-10, but in reality it probably wouldn't have been the world changer it was purported to be. |
|
|
|
Posted: 11/18/2019 9:48:11 AM EDT
[#24]
Team Yankee is an excellent book, written 20, 30?, years ago. I need to read it again. Nuclear weapons did get used, when one side got desperate.
|
|
|
|
Posted: 11/18/2019 9:56:26 AM EDT
[#25]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Agreed. A good read of perspectives and likely scenarios within the timeframe. |
|
|
|
Posted: 11/18/2019 10:41:27 AM EDT
[#26]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
LARIAT ADVANCE Dayyyyyyum!!!!!!!!!! Cue Obi Wan...that's a phrase I've not heard in a very long time. 
|
|
|
|
Posted: 11/18/2019 10:54:20 AM EDT
[#27]
It is pretty obvious both sides would have gone nuclear from the start. Whether or not that would have immediatly escalated to a global scale right away no one knows.
We had our bag if tricks and they had thiers. It would not have gone well for anyone. 
|
|
|
|
Posted: 11/18/2019 10:54:36 AM EDT
[#28]
Quote HistoryQuoted: We were turning in our M60A3 TTS tanks and drawing M1 Abrams and Bradley’s in 85’ |
|
|
|
Posted: 11/18/2019 10:55:33 AM EDT
[#29]
This thread reminds me of a quote I heard on a podcast the other day:
“I don’t know what weapons will be used in World War 3, but I know that World War 4 will be fought with sticks and rocks.” |
|
|
|
Posted: 11/18/2019 11:02:21 AM EDT
[#30]
With modern weapon systems the use of nuclear weapons is unnecessary unless they release them first. We will take the hit. Then our response will be in kind, measured but overwhelming, and a KO punch. The government who uses nukes against us will fail to exist prior to their next payroll date.
|
|
|
|
Posted: 11/18/2019 1:32:42 PM EDT
[#31]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Up to the ski slope and back. OH, I remember those. And I'm surprised that Wildflecken is mentioned in passing in the linked Doc. There was a LARGE diverse force stationed there until 91 ish when it was handed back over to the Germans. the mention 5-68 a few times. Nothing on 1-68 at all. 1-68 was one of the runners to the Gap, we were to be the second speed bump. Lots of training in MOPP 4. Which sucked as a turret mechanic. I rather miss being there, even with the threat we knew who the enemy was. We worked hard and drank like fish. Hell, I'd take a duty station like the chicken in a heartbeat. Damn good Mtbiking, and the farm girls sunning themselves topless by the trails. My brother was a turret mechanic stationed at Baumholder in the really early 1980's. He was kind of a fuck up...a drunk...and a pothead... got into it with an NCO...supposedly, and my brother rammed a pool cue through the NCO's face. I think my brother spent some time at Leavenworth over that. @Fat_McNasty |
|
|
|
Posted: 11/18/2019 2:18:13 PM EDT
[#32]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
This thread reminds me of a quote I heard on a podcast the other day: “I don’t know what weapons will be used in World War 3, but I know that World War 4 will be fought with sticks and rocks.” |
|
|
|
Posted: 11/18/2019 2:26:52 PM EDT
[#33]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Small world.... My brother was a turret mechanic stationed at Baumholder in the really early 1980's. He was kind of a fuck up...a drunk...and a pothead... got into it with an NCO...supposedly, and my brother rammed a pool cue through the NCO's face. I think my brother spent some time at Leavenworth over that. @Fat_McNasty
|
|
|
|
Posted: 11/18/2019 3:06:27 PM EDT
[#34]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Kinda sad that all our Abrams and Warthogs never got a chance to whack all those Commie T72s |
|
|
|
Posted: 11/18/2019 3:30:22 PM EDT
[#35]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
As much as we all love the A-10, it’s life expectancy over Fulda was about 10 min. The Soviets had tons of AD assets. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Kinda sad that all our Abrams and Warthogs never got a chance to whack all those Commie T72s |
|
|
|
Posted: 11/18/2019 3:36:33 PM EDT
[#36]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
We were called speed bumps. Our whole purpose was to stop the gap, slow the gap down, do whatever we could to halt the invasion. Our commander said in reality we had a life expectancy of roughly 10 seconds. Out of 21 years active duty, 4 army and 17 CG, the 2 years I spent in Fulda were the best. We worked hard and played harder and the command let us live life to the fullest. I miss those days. In hind sight I think the Abrams and the warthog would have done better than expected. Also- fpni |
|
|
|
Posted: 11/18/2019 3:36:40 PM EDT
[#37]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
How much of their hardware was either broken or being crewed by walking bottles of vodka? Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Kinda sad that all our Abrams and Warthogs never got a chance to whack all those Commie T72s While western and NATO militaries place their best into their air forces, WARPAC and the Soviets put their best into their ADA units. I've read studies that both sides air forces would of been combat ineffective inside of 2 weeks, or less. |
|
|
|
Posted: 11/18/2019 3:38:55 PM EDT
[#38]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Kruezberg Monestary. You know what I'm talking about. |
|
|
|
Posted: 11/18/2019 3:39:09 PM EDT
[#39]
Who cares ..i just want a tank...so i can have my own mini fulda gap battle down at burger king..
|
|
|
|
Posted: 11/18/2019 3:46:45 PM EDT
[#40]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
1/11 ACR Fulda 75-78 |
|
|
|
Posted: 11/18/2019 3:52:31 PM EDT
[#41]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
There would be no other way to win than use nukes. The numerical supremacy of the Warsaw Pact couldn't otherwise be countered. Winning wasn't on the table. Slowing down the invasion and inflicting as much damage as possible was the goal. |
|
|
|
Posted: 11/18/2019 3:54:43 PM EDT
[#42]
Quote HistoryQuoted: You just described about 85% of the guys taking that MOS. Our motor sgt taught me the definition of a "midnight parts run" We would leave the motor pool for the evening, grab chow and come back after dark. The sgt would be there with a couple cases of beer and we would go out to Alpha, Bravo, Charlie and Delta companies vehicles and take off what parts we needed in order to get the HQ's tracks up and running 
Lets not forget the quarterly Mandatory Fun Day with our German sister unit. Beer started flowing in the morning and we played murder ball till no one could stand up. I doubt stuff like that happens anymore. |
|
|
|
Posted: 11/18/2019 4:05:17 PM EDT
[#43]
Those were the days. We knew who the enemy was, we knew where they were and everyone wore woodland.
For any of you guys who want to reminisce. https://pointalpha.com/en https://pointalpha.com/en/node/718 
|
|
|
|
Posted: 11/18/2019 4:18:33 PM EDT
[#44]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
There would be no other way to win than use nukes. The numerical supremacy of the Warsaw Pact couldn't otherwise be countered. If you could have convinced the Germans to go along with it the better strategy would be to basically fall back immediately, don't even try to hold them east of the Rhine, and destroy every bridge, overpass, airport.... as you fall back. Mine the highways and major intersections, remove road signs... harassing forces/scouts stay lightly in contact and air power chips away at their air defense as well as working on air superiority. Let them get far enough forward that every logistics trail needs multiple improvised bridges and start taking them out. Those A10's and Apache's don't need to shoot tanks, they can shoot anti-air units and bridges. Fuel dumps if you can actually find them, but if it can't get forward it doesn't matter much. Falling back also makes it easier to concentrate your forces and gives time for more to arrive and the initial surprise and "that's not how we gamed it." aspect to wear off a bit. Unfortunately, the Germans still had some pride back then and weren't gonna agree, so we had to at least try to do a somewhat forward defense. Like folks said, it wasn't really gonna be a long term stop even with nukes, but it would accomplish a lot of the same goals in terms of giving the rest of the NATO forces time to get up to speed and for air power to start working on the red logistics. You win battles by killing troops, you win wars by killing their supply lines. |
|
|
|
Posted: 11/18/2019 4:31:58 PM EDT
[#45]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Question for tank people in the know... How did the M60A3 TTS stack up to the T72A? Looking at wiki, it says the US had upgraded all 750 of it's regular M60A3s (in theater? all over the world? I dunno) to A3 TTS by the end of 1983. And a total of almost 2,000 M60A1 to M60A3 TTS (no end date given on that figure). The T72A had a laser ranger finder and and electronic fire control (how good were they qualitatively?) but... no thermals. Didn't TTS play a significant role in the US utterly curbstoming the Iraqi army in the Gulf War? So how are latest and greatest whiz-bang M60A3 TTS's going to stack up against T72As in, say, 1985? |
|
|
|
Posted: 11/18/2019 4:36:07 PM EDT
[#46]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
It is pretty obvious both sides would have gone nuclear from the start. Whether or not that would have immediatly escalated to a global scale right away no one knows. We had our bag if tricks and they had thiers. It would not have gone well for anyone. https://laststandonzombieisland.files.wordpress.com/2013/04/h-912-transport-container-for-mk-54-sadm.jpg “Uhhhhhh ..... sarrrant .......I sort of forgot my rucksack at the last rest halt” |
|
|
|
Posted: 11/18/2019 4:52:34 PM EDT
[#47]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Yes! Some of the best German beer there is. I have one of their 1 liter mugs siting near by. Nothing like getting drunk at a mountain monastery and rolling down the hill. Good time to be alive and in Germany. |
|
|
|
Posted: 11/18/2019 5:10:19 PM EDT
[#48]
This thread has me hankering for a Kreuzberg beer run.
|
|
|
|
Posted: 11/18/2019 5:12:22 PM EDT
[#49]
as a former member of the 3rd ID stationed in Schweinfurt 86-87. We did plenty of NATO exercises to practice the withdrawal of the border battle positions. Our unit, 2/30Inf had its battle position at Coburg.
Most of the plans included either dying in place or withdrawing south to cross the Main River to re-group with West German forces. All that is great, however, since Schweinfurt was less than 20km from the East/West border, we would die in place (our beds) from the sustained 24-48 hour artillery barrage which would have included chemical weapons. Had we made it to the battle positions, we would have died in place or be over run by the tide of Warsaw Pact armor. I would wager, I would not have lived long enough to see REFORGER arrive and wipe the floor with the Warsaw Pact. I would have tried my best to die with my middle finger extended pointing East. |
|
|
|
Posted: 11/18/2019 5:21:42 PM EDT
[#50]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Question for tank people in the know... How did the M60A3 TTS stack up to the T72A? Looking at wiki, it says the US had upgraded all 750 of it's regular M60A3s (in theater? all over the world? I dunno) to A3 TTS by the end of 1983. And a total of almost 2,000 M60A1 to M60A3 TTS (no end date given on that figure). The T72A had a laser ranger finder and and electronic fire control (how good were they qualitatively?) but... no thermals. Didn't TTS play a significant role in the US utterly curbstoming the Iraqi army in the Gulf War? So how are latest and greatest whiz-bang M60A3 TTS's going to stack up against T72As in, say, 1985? I have read conflicting accounts about USMC M-60A3 vs T-72 in Iraq (whether or not they actually happened with T-72's or with older T-55/62 tanks), but (and I'm sure someone will correct me if I'm wrong) it was later found after East and West Germany reunified (and we got to test - even destructively on the range - everything the East had), that the T-72A with reactive armor was largely immune from the 105mm ammunition then available in the all-important frontal arc. And it wasn't just the 105mm either. If you pay attention to such things, there were many additional advancements in munitions and armor even well into the '90's. That was a result of what was learned in those tests. I suppose the armor on a base real-deal T-72A would be much better than a base M-60A3. Add in reactive armor tiles and there is no question. The US Army also had stocks of Israeli made Blazer reactive armor to be quickly installed on the M-60's, but they were never used in Europe (I have no idea how many tanks were to be equipped with it). The Army did transfer Blazer sets to the USMC for the Gulf War. Fire Control on the M-60 was much better than the T-72, but at the closer ranges that would be seen in the Fulda Gap, I don't know if it would much matter. The firepower advantage would go to the 125mm Smoothbore on the T-72, even with newer DU rounds for the 105mm. I honestly don't know how well the Blazer worked, but, AIUI, it was a first generation system that would only work on incoming HEAT rounds, not AP rounds. Some things worked better than we expected (their tanks with reactive armor, their IR guided A2A missile IIRC), others were much less of a threat than we had expected (the Mig-29). This is a pic of an M-60 with Blazer armor:  -K |
|
|
Win a FREE Membership!
Sign up for the ARFCOM weekly newsletter and be entered to win a free ARFCOM membership. One new winner* is announced every week!
You will receive an email every Friday morning featuring the latest chatter from the hottest topics, breaking news surrounding legislation, as well as exclusive deals only available to ARFCOM email subscribers.
AR15.COM is the world's largest firearm community and is a gathering place for firearm enthusiasts of all types.
From hunters and military members, to competition shooters and general firearm enthusiasts, we welcome anyone who values and respects the way of the firearm.
Subscribe to our monthly Newsletter to receive firearm news, product discounts from your favorite Industry Partners, and more.
Copyright © 1996-2024 AR15.COM LLC. All Rights Reserved.
Any use of this content without express written consent is prohibited.
AR15.Com reserves the right to overwrite or replace any affiliate, commercial, or monetizable links, posted by users, with our own.
Attached File