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Minuteman, lying is also a sin as is maligning your fellow-man. You claim you were the victim of a Masonic ritual? You claim at the age of three you were victimized by the brothers of a lodge? What a load of manure. I don't think I was able to go to the bathroom on my own at age 3, much less remember anything about it.
While I certainly believe you were victimized I think it was most likely by someone else who may have told you that it had something to do with the Masons or maybe it was by a relative who was a Mason. Look, like any organization there are going to be individuals that disgrace the general membership. That does not disparage the wntire group. I have been through dozens of Masonic rituals and not a single one allows for a participant under the age of 21, every one requires the consent of the individual stated no less than three times. I can't believe how screwed up you are. I feel sorrow for you and suggest you get some help. I'm not saying that to be insultingor "flame" you, the fact is you aren't in touch with reality. To claim you know of things which do not exist within our organization and attribute that to divine knowledge is scarey. Did Jesus himself tell you that Masonry is the front for a Satanic cult? Seriously, seek some help and try to figure out who it was that clearly abused you and try to put it in the proper context. Every Mason I know what send an abusive person as you describe to hell on an express train for hurting a woman or child. BTW, do not ever question my faith in God. I was months away from entering the seminary when I realized God meant for me to serve in a different capacity. I spent 12 years in Catholic school, am active on Church council, consult for the arch diocese on school retention and lead youth groups in faith development. I am also a very knowledgeable Mason who has reached the levels which so many of our detractors allude to. At no time have I ever renounced God, swore allegiance to satan or abused anyone. Besides, would the Bishop approve my joining if the Masons are satanic? Think carefully, for if you say yes you are implying that the Catholic church is also a satanic cult. |
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Hiram ranger I can go into explicit detail of the ritual but they are not permited on this site!!! Obviously if i can remember it it had a great impact on me. I have received counseling so bug off, I refered to the two individuals in a previous post as fishpapa101 that gave me counseling. So like I said call them. Call 555-1212 and get the phone number for yourself and ask all the questions you want. But remember to know the truth know and not do it is sin.
As far as your faith in god I dont care if you wipe the popes behind, being a christian has nothing to do with what church organization you belong to or what so called good deeds you do, it is about a livinng breathing relationship with jesus christ on a day to day basis. It is called being born again. I have done research into the catholic church and I had also attended the catholic church growing up. I was told at the age of 24 to stop reading my bible by a priest because my questions arose confilicting opinions about the many rituals and beliefs of the catholic church. One in being about pergatory? So buddy maybe you should examine what kind of faith and lifestyle you are leading because sounds to me that it is all based out of good deeds and of the opinion of look how much work I do and look how good a job I do. Boy sounds like a pharisee to me, critical,stubborn,religious,and deceived!!!!!!! |
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OK, so here we have it, in minuteman's own words... if you do not accept his faith you are a godless heathen. If you do not worship as he does, you are not one with Christ. To insult one of the world's leading spiritual figures by saying I can wipe his ass shows how little respect you have for anybody else. You are judgemental and not the neighbor Jesus wishes you to be. You also state the absurd while stating you know, as if you are somehow omniscient. To hear you speak sure sounds as if you are claiming to be all knowing, and nothing anyone tells you that is in contradiction can be correct.
It seems to me that no mortal is all knowing. My faith, the Catholic faith, teaches that the Pope speaks with infallability only on issues concerning doctrine of the Church. In other words, not even the ambassador of God on Earth claims to KNOW everything. How is it that you are so lucky? That's right, you are born again and taught to reject everyting that does not fit in your idealized and cookie cutter world. I am a sinner. Not because I am a Mason, but because I am human. My entire life will be a struggle, I will sin and prove myself unworthy of God's love time and time again. Yet, he will continue to love me because in my heart I love him above all else. If I go to hell it will not be because I am a Mason, I have renounced Satan time and time again. I will pray for your soul and your mind, for they are both clearly troubled. I do not look at you with contempt as you clearly do me and my brethren, instead I look at you with the same pity that I do for the addle brained who goes through life oblivious to the reality that surrounds him. Feel free to email me with the specifics of this "Masonic" ritual in which you were abused. BTW, any psychologist or psychiatrist who hasn't told you that you are clearly delusional should have their license revoked. |
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Quoted: Hello, my name is Michael, aka HiramRanger, and I am a Master Mason. I am also a Roman Catholic and cleared it woth the local Bishop before petitioning for membership. There is so long and deep seated animosity between the Brotherhood and the Holy See, but that is in the past. I will discuss the roots of this animosity later in this post. Let me state for the record, there is no prohibition against a Catholic becoming a Mason. Any priest who tells you otherwise is either mistaken or misleading you. As I said, I confirmed this with the Bishop of the Albany Diocese. View Quote Hiram, There has been some confusion about whether or not Catholics may be Masons since about 1974 or so. Bishop Hubbard is mistaken in saying it's ok. When there is confusion, go to the higher authority (the Vatican): [italics and bold emphases are mine] QUAESITUM EST Declaration on Masonic Associations Sacred Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith It has been asked whether there has been any change in the Church's decision in regard to Masonic associations since the new Code of Canon Law does not mention them expressly, unlike the previous code. This sacred congregation is in a position to reply that this circumstance is due to an editorial criterion which was followed also in the case of other associations likewise unmentioned inasmuch as they are contained in wider categories. [i]Therefore, the Church's negative judgment in regard to Masonic associations remains unchanged since their principles have always been considered irreconcilable with the doctrine of the Church[/i] and, therefore, [b]membership in them remains forbidden. The faithful, who enroll in Masonic associations are in a state of grave sin and may not receive Holy Communion.[/b] [i]It is not within the competence of local ecclesiastical authorities to give a judgment on the nature of Masonic associations which would imply a derogation from what has been decided above, and this in line with the declaration of this sacred congregation issued Feb. 17,1981.[/i] [in other words, since what Bishop Hubbard said conflicts with this statement, he's mistaken, although the mistake is probably an honest mistake] In an audience granted to the undersigned cardinal prefect, the Supreme Pontiff John Paul II approved and ordered the publication of this declaration which had been decided in an ordinary meeting of this sacred congregation. Rome, from the Office of the Sacred Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, Nov. 26, 1983 Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger Prefect Father Jerome Hamer, O. P. Titular Archbishop of Lorium Secretary I am also a Roman Catholic, teaching the Catholic Faith in our parish (BA in Theology), and I have studied the relativistic, naturalistic philosophy of Freemasonry to some degree. St. Maximillian Kolbe founded the [i]Militia Immaculata[/i], of which I belong, to combat the anti-Catholicism of Freemasonry. Since being open-minded and seeking enlightenment is one of the claims of Freemasonry, I'm sure you'll gladly look through this link to gain more knowledge about the relationship between Catholicism and Freemasonry: [url]http://showcase.netins.net/web/clearlight/mason.html[/url] especially William J. Whalen's document on the incompatibility of Catholicism & Freemasonry. |
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Interesting, I'll have to take a look at that and evaluate it. I do find it interesting that a learned Bishop and several Jesuit and Franciscan theologians would be mistaken on something so critical. However, as you have provided a resource I will review it.
Having said that I also firmly believe that there is nothing I have witnessed in Masonry that conflicts with the teachings of my faith. Furthermore there are several Catholic priests whom I know that are Masons. Should the day ever arrive where Masonry conflicts with my faith I would walk away in an instant, from Masonry, not my faith. However, I have not yet witnessed anything which would obligate me in my heart, mind or soul to do so. There was a time when the Church viewed torture via the Inquisition as not only acceptable, but necessary. There was a time when the Church sold forgiveness for sins in the form of indulgences. The Church has changed its views and policies over time. Sadly, I fear that if you are correct they still reject Masonry not on issue of faith but on issue of influence over the lives of men. Its ironic that in Masonry one vows to always put God ahead of of anything else, yet the Church still views it as a threat. For one to understand the animosity, one needs to study the history of the Templars. |
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Even though my fellow CofC member Eric says they are great.... you would NEVER get me to join. NEVER. The symbolism that is used in freemasonry is NOT from God. If you desire to follow Christ his son, stay away from this foul calumny. Paganistic rituals and the joining in "fellowship" of men of different faiths. Sorry.... if it is not of Christ or to be found in the Book, forget it.
As far as the hospitals go... whoop-de-doo. Boy they do great deeds.... just remember this: they serve the world and its needs and not the Lords. They do not give glory to Christ in their meetings just to some "One god". Christians stay away from this stuff, it is NOT of Christ! Dram out and flame on for all I care, I serve Christ and do not participate in any rituals whatever their source... save those instituted by Christ himself. |
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Minuteman,
Dont know what rituals were done to you, but I hope you find peace somewhere along the line. And yes, you are dead on about catholicism. They veered from the Truth long,long ago and follow doctrines of devils. The Word is all you will ever need or could need, the church of rome preaches doctrines and precepts of man which are not mentioned in the bible. Popes,priests,cardinals,statue kissing and worshipping (idolatry), mary worship (the religion of ishtar), praying with beads (buddhism)..... and now contrast this with the writings and life of Christ the Lord. I could go on endlessly about the differences between Christianity and catholicism without even trying, but what is the point? Those who follow the pope will have their reward.... which I most assuredly do not want. Do I bash catholic people ? NO! Most of my friends are catholics actually since the area I live in is 80% or better Catholic. I love my friends but revile that which they worship. Dram out |
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Let me get this straight, the Catholic Church decries Maonsry because it is a false religion... the anti-Masons on this board decry Catholicism because it is a false religion and everyone despises Masons because they allegedly believe in a non-denominational God and support the notion that we accept men based upon their moral character and while we may not subscribe to a fellow member's religious beliefs we respect his right to hold them? Yeah, we are the ones you all need to be afraid of...
I had a chance to review the link provided and found it informative, if not somewhat illogical. While I do not have the time nor space here to address every argument made, I will highlight a few and show where the Catholic church appears to misunderstand the institution of Masonsry, which might lead to some of the tension. BTW, I found it interesting that the Church's stance is derived from a report of a German conference of Bishops who are obviously most informed on European Masonry, not American Masonry... A report commissioned by a professor at Purdue (I've been commissioned in the past to prepare reports for organizations, surprise they always come out advocating the position of the organization commissioning it) and the writings of Albert Pike who while a preemminent thinker does not speak for the all Masons, and in fact the Church points out that his beliefs coincide more with those of the Southern Scottish Rite and not Blue Lodge of the various Grand Lodges. So here is a quick and dirty analysis of some of the finer points made in the report cited. Bear with me, it will take a few minutes to write it all. |
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"In a response given by Cardinal Seper in 1973 regarding the force and meaning of Canon 2335, it was stated that the canon still remained in force but that since penal laws are subject to strict interpretation the penalty would be incurred in a particular case only by those who join associations which plot against the church. If the particular organization did not plot against the church, the excommunication would not be incurred by the person who joined them."
So long as your lodge does not plot against the church you can no longer be excommunicated. Perhaps you are still living in a state of sin, but this is a huge departure from the Church's previous position in which mere membership was punishable by exccommunication "Modern speculative Freemasonry began in 1717 with the establishment in London of the Grand Lodge of England. A little more than two decades later, Clement XII forbade Catholic membership in these lodges, and the opposition of the Catholic Church has been restated by seven other popes." This is erroneous. The first written records that refer to the organization as such appeared around that time, but there is more than ample proof that it existed as far back as the 1400s. What's the point? Such an emminent work should not be frought with such basic historical errors for it lends question as to the sincerity of the work and the dilligence of its authors. This is not the first error as will be demonstrated further on. "This paper will examine the reasons for the historical and present position of the church viv-a-vis Freemasonry and will do so in the American context. We should understand that worldwide Freemasonry shares many beliefs and customs but is not a unified organization; it includes the United Grand Lodge of England; the 50 independent grand lodges in the United States; lodges in Canada, Australia and New Zealand; Prince Hall Masonry; the so-called Christian Masonry of Germany and three Scandinavian countries; the various Grand Orients of Europe and Latin America; co- Masonic bodies; irregular lodges such as the Italian P2 lodge; and others." This is a crucial point. Religions by their nature subscribe to uniform practice and follow a regimented belief system. Anyone with more than a passing knowledge of Masonry knows that while certain tenents and values are shared there exists a great deal of differentiation between Grand Lodges within the United States and around the world. For this reason, it is not uncommon for one Masonic body to not recognize another. Could you imagine a Catholic Church in one diocese refusing to recognize the congregants from another diocese? Of course not, for they are of the same faith and institution. Masonry while sharing much does not follow this model. |
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"We have no reason to doubt the testimony of so many American Masons that they have never heard a word of criticism of the Roman church in lodge meetings or functions. In fact Masonry rules out discussions of religion and politics in the lodge."
Wait a second, Masonry is a religion yet it forbids the discussion of religion in the lodge? That sounds awfully self-defeating to me. Imagine a Catholic mass where you could have no reading from the Gospel, no homily, no communion, no prayers... Would that be mass or the practice of the Catholic religion? "If he wishes, a master Mason may elect to continue his Masonic career by entering the so-called higher degrees: The Scottish or the York (or American) rite. (Jews are, however, barred from the York rite.)" True, to a degree. I am York Rite. In NY a Jew most certainly may join York Rite but they do so with the understanding that York Rite is dedicated to the teachings of Christ and prayers and homage are offered to him. For this reason most Jews opt not to, they are not barred from. "If the American Blue lodges are not especially anti-Catholic, the religious neutrality of an organization such as the Southern jurisdiction of the Scottish rite, which enrolls 600,000 Masons in 33 Southern and Western states, is another matter. The hostility of this group to parochial schools remains unabated, and readers of the New Age are well aware of the attitude of the Southern jurisdiction to Roman Catholicism." Admission by the Church that Blue Lodge is not anti-Catholic. While one must first go through Blue Lodge to become Scottish Rite, he is not required to. Likewise, while I do not know the beliefs of the Southern Scottish Rite, I can tell you that by singling them out the Church tacidly admits that the teachings which they feel are against the Catholic Church are not universally held within Masonry. "In U.S. Freemasonry all women, men under 21 and blacks are barred from Masonic initiation in regular lodges. Otherwise only the atheist, technically the "stupid atheist," and the "irreligious libertine" are unwelcome." True, women and those under 21 are not elligible although there is discussion of lowering the age to 18. Women are elligible to join Eastern Star, Daughters of the Nile and Amaranth to name a few. BTW, how many women are members of the Knights of Columbus? Not auxilaries, but the actual KoC? Also, there is no prohibtition in any Grand Lodge against blacks being Masons. Many blacks choose to join a seperate and unique branch of Masonry known as Prince Hall, but they are not barred from joining Blue Lodge or any of the concordant bodies. |
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"Simply stated, the predominant Blue lodges refuse to initiate anyone known to be black. There is a single exception: Alpha Lodge No. 116 of Newark, N.J., which is recognized by the Grand Lodge of New Jersey. Stories have circulated in recent years about a black candidate in Wisconsin or some other state being initiated, but these are unverified."
Really? My lodge has had black members sitting in the East as have several other lodges in our district and across New York. This blatant inaccuracy is proof positive that someone was very negligent in their research or was attempting to create controversy that would lend credence to their case. "We can, however, ask our non-Catholic friends which institution best exemplifies brotherhood: American Freemasonry or the church, which is open to men and women, blacks and whites, young and old, rich and poor?" Why must they be mutually exclusive? Once again, how many women are in the KoC? "Does this mean that antagonism between Freemasonry and the Christian churches which forbid membership should be fostered? In no way. Dialogue between Christians and Masons can lessen hostility between these groups. Cooperation in civic and charitable works can be encouraged. Some Catholics believe the most fantastic things about Masonry and should be helped to form a rational judgment on the lodge. Some Masons see the church of Rome as the church of the Inquisition, the Crusades, the prop for discredited monarchies. No one benefits from such caricatures." I've yet to see any hostility demonstrated on behalf of Masonry toward Catholicism, I do however see threats of excommunication by the Church against otherwise exemplary Catholics simply for choosing to join an organization which is not controlled by the Church. Wouldn't the first step to better understanding be a truthful and honest examination of the history of Masonry free of the inaccuracies as to its founding, its principles, its structure and membership? Anyway, just my two cents at this late hour as a Catholic who also places great value in his fraternal experience in Masonry. |
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Do't forget this part:
"The masons of early medieval times were Catholics [masonry going back to 1400 as you point out], like almost everyone else in Europe. But under the influence of deism, all traces of Christianity were excised from speculative Freemasonry. In the 1723 Book of Constitutions the new attitude toward religious belief was spelled out: "A Mason is obliged by his tenure to obey the moral law; and if he rightly understands the art, he will never be a stupid atheist nor an irreligious libertine. But though in ancient times Masons were charged in every country to be of the religion of that country or nation, whatever it was, yet 'tis now thought more expedient only to oblige them to that religion in which all men agree, leaving their particular opinions to themselves."" Freemasonry as Universal Religion Clearly whatever constitutes "that religion in which all men agree," it is not Christianity or revealed religion. Masons as Masons believe in the fatherhood of God, the brotherhood of mankind and the immortality of the soul. These are beliefs which they maintain can be discovered by human reason. The inspiration of the Bible, the unique claims of Jesus Christ, the authority and teaching role of the church, and the sacraments as means of grace are "particular opinions" which Freemasons are asked to keep to themselves rather than disturb the brothers in the lodge. A century ago, in his encyclical on Freemasonry [i]Humanum Genus[/i], Leo XIII defined naturalism, which he saw as the primary objection to the Masonic system: "Now the fundamental doctrine of the naturalists, which they sufficiently make known by their very name, is that human nature and human reason ought in all things be mistress and guide....For they deny that anything has been taught by God; they allow no dogma of religion or truth which cannot be understood by human intelligence nor any teacher who ought to be believed by reason of his authority." In keeping with the naturalism of the lodge, no prayers in the Blue lodges are ever offered in the name of Jesus Christ. God, whom Christians have been told to address as our Father, is worshipped as the deistic Great Architect of the Universe...By jettisoning the vestiges of Christianity, modern Freemasonry opened its doors to deists, Jews, Moslems, Hindus, Buddhists and any who acknowledge the existence of the Grand Architect of the Universe and believe in the immortality of the soul. Perhaps a religious naturalism is better than no religious belief at all, but for the professing Christian it represents a retreat from the Gospel." [b]This[/b] is just one of the reasons why Freemasonry is incompatible with Catholicism. |
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"Some Protestant defenders of the lodge try to deny its religious character. Other Protestants and Catholics ask, What element is missing in Freemasonry which we find in a religion? Freemasonry has a creed and ritual, prayers to the Great Architect of the Universe, an altar and temples, feast days, chaplains, an initiation ceremony, a creed and a system of morality. As its funeral service makes plain, the lodge promises its members salvation and entry into the Grand Lodge Above if they follow the precepts of the craft.
The lodge honors Jesus Christ as it honors Socrates, Buddha and Mohammed. It cannot acknowledge any special spiritual claims by Jesus, since this would violate the basis of Freemasonry... As the Digest of Masonic Law makes clear: "To say that a candidate profess a belief in the divine authority of the Bible is a serious innovation in the very body of Masonry. The Jews, the Chinese, the Turks, each reject either the Old or the New Testament, or both, and yet we see no good reason why they should not be made Masons. In fact, Blue Lodge Masonry has nothing whatever to do with the Bible. It is not founded on the Bible. If it were, it would not be Masonry"(p. 206) This poses even more problems for the Catholic. And then... we get to the topic of the blood oaths. After swearing to do/not do a bunch of things, the initiate says: "All this I most solemnly, sincerely promise and swear, with a firm and steady resolution to perform the same, without any hesitation, mental reservation or secret evasion of mind whatever, binding myself under no less penalty than that of having my body severed in two, my bowels taken from thence and burned to ashes, the ashes scattered before the four winds of heaven, that no more remembrance might be had of so vile and wicked a wretch as I would be, should I ever knowingly violate this my master Mason's obligation. So help me God, and keep me steadfast in the due performance of the same." The Biblical injunction against swearing is serious, especially a blood oath. Read on: "The second major reason for the church's hostility is the Masonic oath or rather the series of oaths required of initiates. Unlike some of the Protestant sects such as the Mennonites or Quakers, the Roman Catholic Church has interpreted the biblical injunction against swearing to allow for exceptions in serious cases, e.g. in a court of law. The use of solemn oaths taken on the Bible in order to join a fraternal society or advance to its higher degrees has never been countenanced. Objectively speaking, those who swear such oaths are guilty of either vain or rash swearing. For most American Masons the oaths are given for what turns out to be the supposed secrecy of a few passwords and handshakes. Anyone who has investigated Masonry knows what these "secrets" are anyway. In fact, someone has said that the greatest secret about Freemasonry is that there are no secrets. If there are not, then Christians have no justification for making such solemn oaths. Hannah posed the basic dilemma of the Masonic oaths when he wrote: 'Either the oaths mean what they say or they do not. If they do mean what they say, then the candidate is entering into a pact consenting to his own murder by barbarous torture and mutilation should he break it. If they do not mean what they say, then he is swearing high-sounding schoolboy nonsense on the Bible, which verges on blasphemy' ( |
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And then we get to the 30th degree, and the problem of anti-Catholic sentiment:
"A strong Anti-Catholicism also permeates Freemasonry. The two traditional enemies of Freemasonry are the royalty and the papacy. Masons even believe that Christ, dying on Calvary, was the "greatest among the apostles of humanity, braving Roman despotism and the fanaticism and bigotry of the priesthood." When one reaches the 30th degree in the masonic hierarchy, called the Kadosh, [b]the person crushes with his foot the papal tiara[/b] and the royal crown, and [b]swears to free mankind 'from the bondage of despotism and the thraldom of spiritual tyranny.'[/b]" This is not all of the incompatibilities, Hiram (interesting name, taken from the Masonic initiation rite). There is still more. While membership may not excommunicate a person, membership in Masonic organizations does put one in the state of mortal sin (which as you know, after attending all those years of Catholic school, separates a person from God,although in your case, you did so in good faith thinking it was ok, which mitigates some of the culpability for your action). Even if their is some doubt about Freemasonry, the wise thing to do is play it safe and not participate in the lodge. Which is more important: staying in a state of grace or being a Mason? It's disappointing that Bishop Hubbard told you it's ok, as well as religious scholars. I'm sure they didn't deliberately mislead you, they may have been misled at some point themselves. That's why the Vatican had to issue a clarification. BTW the Church never sold indulgences. The Church has always condemned selling them. That was an abuse and a distortion of the proper understanding of indulgences that local bishops let get out of hand instead of correcting it, as they should have done. Check out the council of Trent, and it even states that selling indulgences has always been wrong. |
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MinuteMan. Isent it funny how the trouth scares the pepole? I think it is good advice when you say stay away from the Masons.
You know the trouth and that is what will set you free. I am sorry you had to learn about the Masons the way you did. I know you would not lie about sutch a thing. I find it hard to belive uthers dont belive you. |
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Quoted: Have you given any thought to joining The Stonecutters instead? I was a member, until I accidentally used the sacred parchement as a napkin. They were stripping me naked and getting ready to ban me for life when they noticed a birthmark I have on me. Needless to say, my arrival had been foretold by the birthmark. All hailed me as the chosen leader until they realized I wasn't even fit to be the village idiot. That's an entirely different story, however. Then I screwed up a few times and got kicked out again. Give them some thought though, they're great guys. Learn the song if you wish to become a member. Who controls the British crown? Who keeps the metric system down? We do! We do. Who leaves Atlantis off the maps? Who keeps the Martians under wraps? We do! We do. Who holds back the electric car? Who makes Steve Guttenberg a star? We do! We do. Who robs cave fish of their sight? Who rigs every Oscar night? We do! We do. View Quote DOH! |
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Satanic stuff is scary. I found out by suprise once. I found an huge upside down cross in a wood lot while hunting. There were animal carcasses and other peripheral satanic crap littered about. The shotgun with me was my only comfort.
The alleged crimes against people could be a Freemason "style," cult, not necessarily the Freemasons. I am not a Freemason. I don't want to be one.....but my chimney needs to be rebuilt and I can't afford to pay to have it done!! DOH! |
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You still have not reconciled the fact that the Church itself acknowledges that religion must be left out of the lodge yet it claims that lodge is a religion.
Not being of the Scottish Rite I can not claim knowledge of the 30th degree. There are three, and only three degrees of Masonry. Masonry is ONLY the Blue Lodge, all else are optional Masonic orders that one need not join. I will likely never join the Scottish Rite as I am York Rite which recognizes Jesus as the Son of God and our Savior. Masonry is not a religion, at most it could be considered a philosophy on interacting with our fellow man. It is a way to bridge gaps in human relationships that might exist because of differences in nationality, ethnicity, race, religion and socio-economic status. When reference is made to the Great Architect it is no different that a Catholic priest referring to the Almighty or Heavenly Father within the context of an interdenominational gathering. In doing so each person is left to look upon this entreaty according to their own faith, the Catholic does not suddenly find himself praying to Allah or the Jew to Jesus, in their mind they understand to whom their prayers are offered. Masonry may appear to have the trappings of religion, but it is not. Anyone who claims otherwise has a parochial interest in doing so or is simply ignorant to the true workings of the lodge. A religion professes to pay homage to a particular god or gods, Masonry has no god itself. Masonry recognizes the role in the world of various religions and makes no judgements. It does not accept all religions as being equal for it is not the place of Masonry to interfere in how one worships, it accepts every man's right to worship as he sees fit. Masonry does have a moral code for its members, as do many professions and other organizations, including among others the Marine Corps. Does anyone here claim that the Marines are a religion? The truth is we will always live in a state of sin, not one among us will ever be free of it so long as we walk this Earth. As stated before, I have a strong understanding of what it means to be a follower of Jesus and would join no organization which did not respect that relationship or my responsibilities to my faith. If that day ever came, I would walk away from Masonry in the blink of an eye. As the Jesuit theologian said (BTW, the Jesuits were the ones used to persecute the Templars), "Michael in your heart you know your relationship with the Lord. If you can walk his path while sitting in your lodge, there is no problem with you being both a Mason and Catholic." |
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Of course if I followed every dictate of the Church I would still be a virgin, would not have attended my father's second, third or fourth weddings since he divorced my mother in violation of church law, I would never have used birth control likely resulting in a pregnancy and a possible abortion (not my choice, but the sole decision of the woman in the US) a further mortal sin. I would not ever masturbate since to commit a sin of the flesh in your mind is the same as committing it in practice.
If a fellow Mason and Catholic can point to how my two affiliations are in conflict, I'll gladly listen. However, it appears more than evident to me that the prohibition was devised by people who have at best second hand knowledge on Masonry and a vested interest in denying affiliation since they fear that membership in the lodge somehow denegrates our commitment to our faith. The fact is I have become far more active in my church since joining the lodge. Until then, I guess it is my choice as God gave me free-will and as the Jesuit told me, there is no crisis of faith brought about by my membership. |
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Post from drlamborg -
Even though my fellow CofC member Eric says they are great.... you would NEVER get me to join. NEVER. The symbolism that is used in freemasonry is NOT from God. If you desire to follow Christ his son, stay away from this foul calumny. Paganistic rituals and the joining in "fellowship" of men of different faiths. Sorry.... if it is not of Christ or to be found in the Book, forget it. View Quote I quite agree when it comes to matters of faith and questions concerning conduct within the church. So anti-symbolism are we, the CofC has not so much as a single cross found anywhere on the grounds or within the church building itself. But both my brother and I are also life members of the National Rifle Association, which as far as I know, makes few if any statements about Christ at their meetings, and is composed of men and women from many faiths, and, as I've discovered on this Board, some of no faith whatsoever. Does Jesus wish me to resign from the NRA? Or to do 'good works' within that organization? As far as the hospitals go... whoop-de-doo. Boy they do great deeds.... just remember this: they serve the world and its needs and not the Lords. View Quote Just as Jesus served the World and its needs while He was physically on Earth. 'Good works' are 'good works', and if some Masons, Shriners, and others perform these 'good works', I doubt that Jesus would forbid them from so doing if He were here. Besides which, these 'good works' flow from these people [u]because[/u] they are likely to be Christian, not in spite of them being Christian! Their 'cup' appears to be clean. They do not give glory to Christ in their meetings just to some "One god". View Quote Having seen what denominationalism has done to the outside world, I would think it prudent not to bring up matters that might only serve to break up their charitable organizations. From a recent poll here on AR15.com, we found that 66% of the members who responded were Christian. Should we then ask the remaining members to leave, or simply understand that this is not the place and now is not the time to demand such religious uniformity? I attended the funeral of my brother's brother-in-law, who was also a Mason and Shriner. [u]After[/u] a typical Southern Baptist graveside ceremony performed by his minister, his masonic brethren performed a masonic burial service. Nothing in their burial rites offended me, and I'm as fundamentalist as they come! I doubt it offended Christ, either. BTW, the men all wore their aprons and hats during the ceremony, and every time the Lord's name was mentioned, they doffed their hats! Would that everyone gave such respect to the Father![:D] Eric The(CofC)Hun[>]:)] |
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So, are you a cafeteria-Catholic, Hiram? Since you apparently pick and choose from among Church policies and doctrines which ones you are going to follow, why did you bother getting clearance from the bishop for joining the Masons? Everything you've posted here makes it sound like you are a more devout Mason than you are Catholic. Do you also pick and choose which Lodge rules you care to follow?
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How is membership in the Knights of Columbus different from membership in the Knights Templar or the Mason's and other Masonic Orders/Lodges?
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Catfight!!
Where's the popcorn? Eric, maybe you can clarify something for me: I've heard that Baptists forbid having sex standing up. They fear it might lead to dancing! True? [:D] |
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Post from DScott -
Eric, maybe you can clarify something for me: I've heard that Baptists forbid having sex standing up. They fear it might lead to dancing! View Quote LOL![:D] I'm not exactly certain where they [u]stand[/u] on having sex standing up! But I just hope that it's [u]very[/u] close. Eric The(RememberOnan!)Hun[>]:)] |
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Quoted: Post from DScott - Eric, maybe you can clarify something for me: I've heard that Baptists forbid having sex standing up. They fear it might lead to dancing! View Quote LOL![:D] I'm not exactly certain where they [u]stand[/u] on having sex standing up! But I just hope that it's [u]very[/u] close. Eric The(RememberOnan!)Hun[>]:)] View Quote No, actually we don't have sex standing up for the fear that another member of the church might look in the window and THINK we are dancing. Just to correct a misunderSTANDING! |
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hey there hiram ranger I just wanted to say that it sure is funny when you are confronted with the truth and look at how you are reacting. First anger,then denial,then you are trying to attack my character and attack my soundness of mind!!!! Buddy you are a joke! If anybody is dillusional it is you!!!!! Look at all of the long explanations you are writing! No matter what you say first off know since you have been confronted with the truth all based on biblical principles, not the catholic church doctrine, you would be sinning and you stand to be judged by god at the judgement seat of christ if you dont change your behavior. Because to know the truth and not act on it is sin!!!! From your post this is what i can see! First you are not a christian! You may be a catholic but you are not a christian! If you have not been born again and this is a biblical principle in John 3, then you are not a christian. If jesus christ has not been asked into your heart and you have not given your life to jesus then you are not a christian. This is were the relationship starts, not obeying some doctrine in the catholic church. Secondly you are the one who needs prayer, you are obviously dillusional and you can flame me all you want because I dont care, you are just angry and down deep in your soul, if you have one left, you know that I and others here are right but you could only see that if you really listened. So I will pray for you and hopefully before you pass on to eternity you will accept the truth, not my truth but gods truth, because buddy you are making a big gamble on your eternal destination, it will either be heaven or hell, sounds to me at this point in time you are choosing hell, and that is sad because it is gods will for all to know him and spend eternity in heaven with him, but unfortunetly people will be decieved by the craftyness of the devil and end up in hell with him, so It is your choice I already know were I am going, I dont fear death because death has no hold on me. I wll be with jesus when I pass on from this life. How about you? So I ask this what does jesus teach you about himself on a day to day basis? What has jesus said to you today? In your time of prayer with jesus what did he speak to your heart? In your time of being in the word of god what did god show you today? What kind of people is jesus sending into your life to teach and to learn from about the life of christ? You said in one of your posts that there would be fruit from ones deeds. Well are these practices that you do on a daily basis? Or are you the typical catholic that goes to church on the required religious days and do your kneeling and standing and leave church feeling holy. So were is the fruit in your life? Sounds to me you follow religion and commit idioloty by being a mason. You see I follow jesus and that is all I need!!!!!!!!!!
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Quoted: Quoted: Post from DScott - Eric, maybe you can clarify something for me: I've heard that Baptists forbid having sex standing up. They fear it might lead to dancing! View Quote LOL![:D] I'm not exactly certain where they [u]stand[/u] on having sex standing up! But I just hope that it's [u]very[/u] close. Eric The(RememberOnan!)Hun[>]:)] View Quote No, actually we don't have sex standing up for the fear that another member of the church might look in the window and THINK we are dancing. Just to correct a misunderSTANDING! View Quote ROTFLMFAO! |
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Quoted: Masonry is not a religion, at most it could be considered a philosophy on interacting with our fellow man. It is a way to bridge gaps in human relationships that might exist because of differences in nationality, ethnicity, race, religion and socio-economic status. When reference is made to the Great Architect it is no different that a Catholic priest referring to the Almighty or Heavenly Father within the context of an interdenominational gathering. In doing so each person is left to look upon this entreaty according to their own faith, the Catholic does not suddenly find himself praying to Allah or the Jew to Jesus, in their mind they understand to whom their prayers are offered. Masonry may appear to have the trappings of religion, but it is not. Anyone who claims otherwise has a parochial interest in doing so or is simply ignorant to the true workings of the lodge. A religion professes to pay homage to a particular god or gods, Masonry has no god itself. Masonry recognizes the role in the world of various religions and makes no judgements. It does not accept all religions as being equal for it is not the place of Masonry to interfere in how one worships, it accepts every man's right to worship as he sees fit. Masonry does have a moral code for its members, as do many professions and other organizations, including among others the Marine Corps. Does anyone here claim that the Marines are a religion? View Quote That is dead on, and in my opinion, is all that needs to be said. These are the facts about Masonry, and the past is open to interpetation by each individual Mason and each non-Mason. All the rest of the arguments are great if you like to argue about history, but have little to do with today and tomorrow. Every religion or older organization has a past that can be scrutinized and debated.......so what? As an example, I'm as agnostic as one can be, with the exception of admitting that something bigger than myself is extremely likely. I don't buy in to any of the major religions. YET, I sit in a lodge filled with men from every walk of life, who have very individual faiths, (kinda like here, if that makes it any easier to grasp) And never once has any of the bretheren cast a judgement upon me, nor I them. That's not what we come together for, and to be honest, I wouldn't be there if it was. The key to all the argument about how this fits in to religon, is that it is for you to decide for yourself, not anyone else. H.R. & I couldn't see things more diferently about his relationship with Jesus, no surprise there, none of you agree with him either( or even with eachother), and I don't agree with any of you. What does that prove? NOTHING!! Get it? The thing is, I know a few things about H.R.s' character and he knows a little about mine, and we've never spoken a single word to eachother. OdT |
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Quoted: hey there hiram ranger I just wanted to say that it sure is funny when you are confronted with the truth and look at how you are reacting. ... View Quote Whew! I'm glad we've figured out who has exclusive rights to "the truth"! Lead on, McDuff! [:P] |
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I've spoken my peace and provided what I think is a pretty solid explanation of Masonry and why it is not what people like golgo and minuteman and osprey claim it to be. I will no sooner change their minds than they will mine. As I have said before, anybody who has specific questions may email me and I will answer them to the best of my ability.
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YOU FOOLS... I am the Imperialistic Grand Master, otherwise known as the 43rd level of freemasonry! Just keep on speculating, we have everyone fooled! Wha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha!
[sniper] |
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Quoted: Eric says they are great.... As far as the hospitals go... whoop-de-doo. Boy they do great deeds.... just remember this: they serve the world and its needs and not the Lords. They do not give glory to Christ in their meetings just to some "One god". View Quote Dramborleg, now many years a go, when I was 12, I left the church. I have never left and will never leave GOD. Apparently, I'm going along with billions of Chinese, Muslims, Catholics and millions of others to where ever they're all going. About the hospitals - I believe the children so desperately in need find the hospitals of great benefit. I believe God is happy with those who help a child. An understanding of the "Knights Templar" - their works, their belief's, their sophisticated banking system and how and why they were forced into exile and hiding are all necessary to understand the "Mason's" and why their religious requirements for entry include only a belief in "GOD." Unlike the Red Cross, the Masons occupy a place of respect in my heart. |
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Quoted: Even though my fellow CofC member Eric says they are great.... you would NEVER get me to join. NEVER. The symbolism that is used in freemasonry is NOT from God. If you desire to follow Christ his son, stay away from this foul calumny. Paganistic rituals and the joining in "fellowship" of men of different faiths. Sorry.... if it is not of Christ or to be found in the Book, forget it. As far as the hospitals go... whoop-de-doo. Boy they do great deeds.... just remember this: they serve the world and its needs and not the Lords. They do not give glory to Christ in their meetings just to some "One god". Christians stay away from this stuff, it is NOT of Christ! Dram out and flame on for all I care, I serve Christ and do not participate in any rituals whatever their source... save those instituted by Christ himself. View Quote This from somebody who is so utterly obsessed with the Lord of the Rings that he was willing to cut the balls off anyone who dared to disagree with his thoughtful and *very detailed* analysis of the books, the movie, and various critical reviews? Where's the sense in THAT? Ha! |
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Quoted: I am also a Roman Catholic, teaching the Catholic Faith in our parish (BA in Theology), and I have studied the relativistic, naturalistic philosophy of Freemasonry to some degree. St. Maximillian Kolbe founded the [i]Militia Immaculata[/i], of which I belong, to combat the anti-Catholicism of Freemasonry. View Quote I just can't remember the name and religion of that king that borrowed all that money from the Knights Templar and rather than honor his word to repay simply attacked in an attempt to destroy all Templars - and his debt. L. Bin can you remember ? This king and the guy in Rome sort of planned lots of things together - treachery, politics, etc., and all in the name of religion. Oh, that magnificent act of treachery caused the forming of the Masons - almost certainly. (You folks also had a problem with the earth circling the sun (So you threw the scientist in prison and in chains) until again the sun rotated the earth. Excellent work on that "Inquisition" program - work to be remembered for the ages. But let us remain near the time of the founding of the Masons for just a while longer. |
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It was a French Louie, and the pope was his puppet who actually sat in France, not Rome. They burned Demolay at the stake on friday the 13th.
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Anyone wishing to learn the historical roots of Masonry is encouraged to read Edward Burman's "The Templars, Knights of God."
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maybe instead of reading some satanic liturature from the masons people should be reading the bible hiram ranger!!!!! Or do you really know what the is!!!!! Gods Word!!!!!I am glad that you have said your piece because I sure have said mine. I know what the truth is by personal experience, I have seen the mason satanic bible, and I have gotten professional help from people that have intimate knowledge about the truth about masons!!!!I gave the names of those two individuals. So like I said I will pray for you and I hope by the end of this life you will choose wisely!!!!!!!!
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maybe instead of reading some satanic liturature from the masons people should be reading the bible hiram ranger!!!!! Or do you really know what that is!!!!! Gods Word!!!!!I am glad that you have said your piece because I sure have said mine. I know what the truth is by personal experience, I have seen the mason satanic bible, and I have gotten professional help from people that have intimate knowledge about the truth about masons!!!!I gave the names of those two individuals. So like I said I will pray for you and I hope by the end of this life you will choose wisely!!!!!!!! Heaven or Hell because there sure aint no purgatory!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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I think what this conversation needs is more exclamation points.
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Quoted: I think what this conversation needs is more exclamation points. View Quote I guess that makes "the truth" even more, uh, true? |
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I have to admit I have found this thread interesting. I have never personally paid much attention to the whole Mason thing – though I have been aware there were detractors.
From what I have read here though, I have found myself becoming very interested. Seems to me that these detractors, by their rhetoric and beliefs are some of the same types of people that I have been involved in personal moral struggles with throughout my life. Now, I think to myslelf, imagine a whole organization going through the same. All of this ties in nicely to something I have been thinking about a lot since September 11th. Alas, I present my “view of history” as it relates to this thread: Am I the only one to look upon the hatred and political motivations of the anti-catholic, ant-evolution wing of fundamentalist Christianity in the PRESENT as having almost the same essence of the church whose closed mindedness and dogmatic insistence originally spawned Protestantism in the PAST? Where the modern Catholic Church has realized the error of its too political past, many modern Protestant groups are filling that niche. On the same note, if the Knights Templar are indeed linked historically with Masons, by their link to the Crusades I might be inclined to associate them with the same medieval, twisted thinking that caused the scientifically backwards “Christian” nations of the past to attack the culturally and scientifically superior “Muslim” nations of the same era. However, from what I have read here this is not the case. Instead, such attitudes are clear in the writings of their detractors. This is the same irony that now has vocal, anti-scientific fundamentalist Muslim peoples in the PRESENT lashing out and attacking the currently intellectually and scientifically superior western world. So you see, while the organizations and names are still around, attitudes definitely seem to have evolved. So as I see it, It seems throughout history one basic tenet rings true. Where the dominant culture embraces scientific wisdom, individual achievement, and intellectual and cultural progress, there has been much progress for humankind. Where the dominant culture obsesses over literal truth of religious scriptures, denies and decries scientific knowledge as blasphemy, and resorts to lies and deceit to control the masses, their will be hatred and cultural regression. Ironically then, while today Usama bin Laden mentions the Crusades as reason to attack the west, he is really the intellectual and philosophical descendent and equivalent of the very people who caused the crusades in the first place. The West today is where the Islamic world was then. In the same light, it seems to me the Masons are an open-minded, charitable organization committed to raising money for medical research and medical services to help crippled kids. Despite this, people claiming to be “Christians” are determined to use all means of deceit and ignorance to portray them as pure evil. So to sum this up, I view minuteman3’s preachers (not so much minuteman himself, as the amount of documented evidence of quack therapists implanting concepts of satanic abuse into the heads of impressionable people is no joke) are the philosophical equivalents of The old Catholic Church leaders who launched the Crusades and Usama Bin Laden. So maybe the old saying that those who espouse hate really hate themselves most of all is more true then we ever realized? Just a thought. Adam |
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Many blacks choose to join a seperate and unique branch of Masonry known as Prince Hall, but they are not barred from joining Blue Lodge or any of the concordant bodies. View Quote HiramRanger: Would you mind elaborating on this? I ask becuase I was a bit amused at earlier insinuations of Masons being ant-italian - and then you saying you WERE italian - and implications of anti-black racism - since the only Mason related stuff I ever see seems a dominantly black thing. Apparently the Masonic organization here is maybe "Prince Hall" affiliated. I never really paid much attention. except to note that the lodge members were universally black and inclined to openly display a myriad of masonic imagery on everything from clothes to jewelry. So what are these guys all about? I am sure several of my soldiers are members. Now, while many of my peers view the organization as insidious and as undermining of the chain of command, I have never seen it any different than any other club or sports team in terms of negative effects appropriate workplace relationships. Are those fears others have justified? Of course, I have a heard a lot of anecdotes However, as a scientifically trained and minded person, I am all too aware that the plural of anecdote is not data. Adam |
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Hey there Adam white you seem to be a very intellectual and intelligent kind of guy and I applaud you for that.
In response to your comments about me first off I do not hate anybody or myself, I just question the doctrinal beliefs of any organization that goes against the word of god, and that would be the bible. For this conversation has nothing to do with if I hate Hiram ranger or anybody else, It has to do with the ideology and beliefs that goes against what is in the word of god. In the bible it says, "that we do not wrestle against flesh and blood but against principalities and powers of darkness". This whole conversation has been about the wrestling against principalities and the powers of darkness involved in the masons. I am sure that Hiram ranger and others are good upstanding moral people and if I were to meet any of them on the street I would not have a single problem with them, that is were love for others comes into play, you can disagree with someone’s opinion but still treat them with respect and love. So I do not hate them, I do feel sad because the bible also says, "that every knee shall bow and every tongue will confess that Jesus Christ is lord". Know that will either be here on earth or before the judgment seat of Christ after one passes on to eternity. Even you one day will face Jesus Christ, and you will look back at all of this and say boy minuteman3 was not the Looney crack pot I had made him out to be. This might sound prideful and aragent to you but I am not the one that made up the rules god did and you and everyone on the face of this earth will answer to god some day for there is only but one god. |
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contineue...................
Secondly your comment about having some phyciatrist planting things into my head never happened and let me explain. All my life I had little snap shots of different things that had happened to me when I was little and I tried a lot of things to put them away. When I was little I had tried to tell my mom and step dad what had happened but they did not listen. How can a three-year-old child explain such a horrific thing other than that dad and grandpa hurt me? As I got older the details became more explicit and I began to remember more and more. I went and sought professional help when I was in a point in my life when I was emotionally strong enough and financially stable enough to deal with it. I was having some marriage issues and I sought some help for my marriage from a man that was recommended to me by my pastor, and my pastor had no information about my involvement with the masons. When I went to this person and started to spill my guts about things I began to tell him about the explicit details of the ritual abuse that I went through. After I was finished his first words to me were was your grandfather or father a mason. I said yes they were both very active and high up in the organization, and I asked why. Then he pulled out of his drawer some material and he asked me If I have ever seen these things before. It was a copy of the Masonic satanic bible. He then turned to a page in this lititure and read the same exact thing that I had explained to him in detail like I had told him. He did not plant anything in my head or did anybody else because I told no one the explicit details of what had happened not my parents, not my pastor, no friends or other family members, not even my wife. And my counselor had gotten this material from an ex-mason that was involved in a lot of the rituals that had become a Christian and had sought counseling to help him get past the things that he himself had been involved in so that is how he got the information. All my life I just tried to forget about it, but it would not forget about me. Know you may ask why does a pastor have these materials? He has them to research what is done in the rituals and has come up with ways to begin to break the bondages that happen to people emotionally and spiritually from these rituals. He goes through and reverses what was done in the ritual by praying with that person and having that individual physically pray and renounce the ritual and the acts that were done in the ritual. So I have personally read what is in the Masonic satanic bible. |
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continue...................
Ever since I went and saw this counselor and went through and prayed and renounced all of the things that happened to me in those rituals I have been a much happier person and I do not have the reoccurring thoughts and explicit details of the ritual anymore and the anger problem that I used to have I have no longer and I don’t have all of the violent dreams that I had most of my life. .to even begin to try to remember what happened I have to think about it along time and even in thinking about it I don’t have any ill feelings about it at all, no sadness, no anger, no unforgiveness , no depression, no hurt, no pain. To me it is just information know. My wife can even say that I am a better person to live with and others around me see the difference in me also. Through this information and the power of Jesus Christ the hold that the devil had on me was broken that day. So no counselor put anything in my head. I am not delusional. You see when I was a young boy the devil tried to steal my life, but god loved me so much that he directed my steps to get help and to free me from what had happened to me. I later found out that the man that I had went and seen is a specialist in this area that deals with a lot of people who have been satanically ritually abused. Funny thing is that the counselor is in Oregon were I have lived know for 9 years, but the abuse happened in California were I grew up. So to me god directed my steps and guided me to get the help that I needed when the time was right. |
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continue.................. It is too simple for people to deny that there is but only one god and but only one truth that is why there are so many so-called religions. Because Christianity is too simple for a lot of people to grasp. My friend if you are going to become a mason you have no idea what you are getting yourself into my suggestion would be to stay far away from the masons. It really does not matter if masons/shriners are doing good deeds in this world by helping children because when it is all said and done on judgment day before the seat of Christ all of those good deeds really are not going to matter at all. What is going to matter is that the masons are a satanic cult and that is what they will be judged upon. So yes in this physical world I will admit that the shriners help out but on a spiritual standpoint that really wont matter in the eyes of god because what is behind all of there good deeds is a lot of evil that is held in secrecy and is heavily denied. So believe what you may but through my own personal experience and the good life that I lead know I can say that I do know what the truth is about god and I do know what the dirty secret of the masons is that is so held in secrecy that no mason would ever admit to and would try to conceal at all costs. That is why so many have flamed me and attacked my character and said that I should seek professional help, because too many people would rather deny the truth then face it. To many people would rather try to squash the person speaking the truth, instead of listening to the truth. I probably have worn out my welcome here on ar15.com like someone had emailed me to warn me, but It is worth it to me because maybe someone will read this and it might help someone out there somewhere to stay away from the masons. All it takes is for one person to stay away from the masons and my being open and honest about my life and struggles will all be worth it. So flame on and attack me all you will that is ok with me. |
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Well, MinuteMan3, I have mentioned that my brother is a 32nd Degree Mason and a Shriner, and that he is also a fundamentalist Christian!
Is [u]he[/u] lying to me about there being no blasphemy or sodomy taking place in any of the initiations into his lodge? Masonry, at least in this country is not the same anti-clerical, anti-Christian brotherhood that we see in Europe in earlier times. If you were sinned against by Masons in the past, it was only because those Masons were, in fact, simply sinful men! Nothing more. They could just as easily have been Scoutmasters, as Masons! But if they were Scoutmasters, would you seek to disband the Boy Scouts or advise others to keep their children out of scouting because its nothing but a group of pederasts? And just because one is a member of a group that doesn't identify itself with Christ, does that mean it's Anti-Christ? Think American Legion, VFW, et al. Were Joseph of Arimathea and Nicodemus saved, or simply because they were members of the Great Sanhedrin, were they irretrievably lost? And I am content to let Christ judge us all! Eric The(WiseBeyondHisEars)Hun[>]:)] |
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Quoted: Were Joseph of Arimathea and Nicodemus saved or were they irretrievably lost? Eric The(WiseBehindHisEars)Hun[>]:)] View Quote Eric's wise reply in the form of a question should do much to point you in the direction of the "Light." (Look guy, if you been asked to join then join. A good organization doing good work. Surely you're too smart to listen to any of our 34th degree bullschittt !) |
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