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Link Posted: 3/28/2009 11:11:09 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Fister:
Guess what, they probably are.

We are Americans. We live in the greatest country in the World. We have laxed gun laws because we feel it is right. We have it pretty damn good here.
The problem we have however is, the other countries surrounding us and afar have much crappier gun laws and control issues. If you dim witted idiots think for one second that these guys who are bringing these drugs across out border and collecting big $$ here in the states are not making a stop at fun shows and buying guns and ammo for their return trip back. You are really dumber than the guys on DU. The problem is not with our gun laws. We all know this. The problem we have is with open borders. Now Mexico can easily blame the US for their problems. They have for decades and it’s not going to change any time soon. But we can do something.

If you want this crap off the networks then get off your mindset and put your keyboard to work. Email the media outlets; write letters to your reps and senators. Get the info needed to defeat this crisis out into the open so we can accomplish the kinds of "Change" we need.

What we need is a closed border. Possibly heavily fortified and armed for the time being. If an immigrant wants to migrate they can submit their damn paperwork. Guess what happens when the borders close. It stops being so damn easy to just drive across with a load of smack. It also becomes really hard to just drive a shipment of US made ammo and guns back the other way. The cartels would either wage a small war on us at the border in which we (the US) could simply act accordingly and bomb the hell out of them once and for all. I am not talking about a fence here. I am talking about a wall. Bring home our troops and activate all our NG resources and put them to work along with civilian contractors and we could get the whole thing up in record time. Not to mention kick some ass in the process. Hell it would give our troops some much needed training here in the US close to home. Where if needed they can respond and react in a timely manner and not respond from half way around the globe. I say America first. Everyone else can eat a dick and fix their own problems like they should. Damn lazy bastards.

My .02


BTW just to bring your attention. The unsupporting members of this in the past are the ones accepting blame for the US to be at the fault of this only they are trying (and doing a good job at it) to divert your attention to the laxed gun laws and not that its a unsecured border issue. This is a very good opportunity to hang them out to dry via the latest and greatest media outlets and online everywhere. Write your letters and shoot off your emails. Make the facts known. We can even open a tread here in the forums to list all the outlets who need to run a piece on it. If they ignore it then we push with more coverage and emails. When Fox runs it on Becks show he can jump around and brand these assholes where it counts. Not to mention be the first to publicly release the information and pin it to them where it hurts. If we want "Change" then we have to push the envelope and crush them under their mountain of willful incompetence.


Your FOS.

I have been buying guns and in the gun business for a while. I have NEVER even SEEN a live grenade. I have even TRIED to BUY ONE LEGITIMATELY. Do you believe everything you are told?
Link Posted: 3/28/2009 11:22:07 AM EDT
Originally Posted By h3smith:
Originally Posted By RileyS:
Originally Posted By h3smith:
Originally Posted By RileyS:
Originally Posted By 50cal:
You never hear of INS or the Border Patrol catching anyone sneaking into Mexico. The drug cartels are most likely getting their weapons stolen from the Mexican government.
I doubt very seriously someone is selling their $15,000 registered M16 to the druggies when they can get the same thing inside their own border for a much smaller sum.


Yes, but what of all the Semi-auto guns found? You don't think the mexican military is using WASR10's? Face it folks, the guns come from here. And I'm not saying that because some douchebags in the media tell me that, I'm saying it because you'd have to be an idiot not to think of it. Hell, the border is more open that GOATSE's asshole. What would be hard about getting a few stripped lowers, maybe from FTF sales, maybe from willing American buyers, maybe even from stealing. Then buy a parts kit, with a pistol upper, then voila, instant Mexican 7" Kitty Kat AR. The mexican military doesn't use 7" uppers with Tapco rails, folks. Of course the heavy stuff is not coming from us, anything FA is not from us. RPG's, grenades, LAWs, etc. ain't our problem. And you know what? Neither are the other guns. It's not our problem, they are Mexico's laws, Mexico needs to enforce them.

We could sure as hell help by say, loosening our drug laws, to remove the criminal element's money supply, or maybe, just maybe, GASP enforce the border!!! But, if Mexico wants the guns out, then they can shore up the border, with their police. They can fuck over their citizens, but they'd best stop expecting us to bend over for their failure.


Why would they smuggle semiautomatic firearms in to Mexico when they can buy container's full of fully automatic's from any country that would like to destabilize North America?


You tell me a three step process, in specific terms how to get such kit. I'll tell you a 3 step process to getting guns from the US.

1. Cross border, find American buyer for gun.
2. Get gun from American buyer. If AR, order pistol upper for uber respect points back in Juarez.
3.Cross border back.

Now you tell me how to get in touch with this international conspiracy to make your life worse by selling THE DOPE to willing Americans.


Do you honestly think a cartel that banks $100billion a year doesn't have the resources to buy machine guns from any willing government in the world?

Why would they go through the hassle of smuggling guns in when they can just buy them outright?

occam's razor


People throw the word "cartel" around a lot. Fact of the matter is that a lot of the folks running drugs across the border are just local thugs / gangs. They do not have the resources to dial up a crate of FA rifles from another country. I'm sure that we are not the only supplier, indirect, of firearms to Mexico, but they do get some from us. Mostly they seem to like SKS's and AK's. Probably because they were so cheap at one time. Yes, they were bought here. If they were purely stolen weapons, they would be using a lot more AR's. Not to mention the independents can make a shit load buying here and selling down there for 3-4 times what they paid.

As far as sneaking back across the border, all I have to say is "Yea right." You don't have to sneak across, just drive south bound in a POE, no one is going to stop you. The chance of you getting deaded is fairly likely if you interfere with the drug trade or their resources down there. Now, Joe Blow Juero crossing without realizing that he has a few loose rounds of 5.56 rolling around on his floor board is in for a world of shit if approached by Mex customs.

Link Posted: 3/28/2009 11:22:45 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Fister:
The problem we have however is, the other countries surrounding us and afar have much crappier gun laws and control issues. If you dim witted idiots think for one second that these guys who are bringing these drugs across out border and collecting big $$ here in the states are not making a stop at fun shows and buying guns and ammo for their return trip back. You are really dumber than the guys on DU. The problem is not with our gun laws. We all know this. The problem we have is with open borders. Now Mexico can easily blame the US for their problems. They have for decades and it’s not going to change any time soon. But we can do something.


or
Link Posted: 3/28/2009 11:23:20 AM EDT

Originally Posted By bg10:
Originally Posted By cyclone:
+1...........as simple as turning those serial numbers over would be, you'd think it's a no-brainer............


Originally Posted By 50cal:
If the Federales would just take the effort to confirm with the ATF where the "smuggled" guns serial numbers originated from, this could all be settled with no speculation.
I don't see it happening though.




it does seem like a no brainer, except for the fact that any type of investigation would likely show that these weapons are provided, at least in part, by corrupt entities within the mexican military and police forces.

Ding Ding Ding we have a winner!
Link Posted: 3/28/2009 11:28:52 AM EDT
Here is a link to an article published in the L.A. Times recently.

http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/world/la-fg-mexico-arms-race15-2009mar15,0,229992.story


The majority of the guns are not coming from the US.
Link Posted: 3/28/2009 11:31:47 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Fister:
So by your understandings. These guys dont have drill presses and metal files in mexico huh. Last I checked a semi auto form of most of our "sporter" type rifles can be pretty easily modified in any machine shop. Even in mexico.

Think about what you are saying. No these are probably not crossing over as MG's but the ones that are are most likely converted in mexico.


How old are you?
Link Posted: 3/28/2009 11:33:07 AM EDT
If you dim witted idiots think for one second that these guys who are bringing these drugs across out border and collecting big $$ here in the states are not making a stop at fun shows and buying guns and ammo for their return trip back. You are really dumber than the guys on DU.


Why would they go to the trouble of buying ridiculously overpriced firearms and then smuggling them across the border when they can buy much cheaper full auto weapons in Mexico?

Your theory doesn't pass the smell test.

Please provide proof your theory or stop trolling.

Even the liberal media outlets are admitting the guns aren't coming from us, so stop with your bullshit please.
Link Posted: 3/28/2009 11:33:15 AM EDT
Not.

Our.

Fucking.

Problem.
Link Posted: 3/28/2009 11:42:46 AM EDT
OK, I've got a suggestion:

1) Temporarily wall off the border. I'm talking 20 foot high concrete walls.

2) Build said wall 300 - 500 yards inside OUR border.

3) Allow travel and population flow ONLY at registered crossings.

4) Allow any American who pays a fee to patrol the top of the wall.

5) Anyone caught in 1" to 500 yards from the wall, NOT at an authorized border crossing, is allowed to be shot.

I don't think you'll see the influx of immigrants, and Mexico can't complain that it's our fault any longer. Fuck'em.
Link Posted: 3/28/2009 11:45:14 AM EDT

Originally Posted By h3smith:
Originally Posted By RileyS:
Originally Posted By h3smith:
Originally Posted By RileyS:
Originally Posted By 50cal:
You never hear of INS or the Border Patrol catching anyone sneaking into Mexico. The drug cartels are most likely getting their weapons stolen from the Mexican government.
I doubt very seriously someone is selling their $15,000 registered M16 to the druggies when they can get the same thing inside their own border for a much smaller sum.


Yes, but what of all the Semi-auto guns found? You don't think the mexican military is using WASR10's? Face it folks, the guns come from here. And I'm not saying that because some douchebags in the media tell me that, I'm saying it because you'd have to be an idiot not to think of it. Hell, the border is more open that GOATSE's asshole. What would be hard about getting a few stripped lowers, maybe from FTF sales, maybe from willing American buyers, maybe even from stealing. Then buy a parts kit, with a pistol upper, then voila, instant Mexican 7" Kitty Kat AR. The mexican military doesn't use 7" uppers with Tapco rails, folks. Of course the heavy stuff is not coming from us, anything FA is not from us. RPG's, grenades, LAWs, etc. ain't our problem. And you know what? Neither are the other guns. It's not our problem, they are Mexico's laws, Mexico needs to enforce them.

We could sure as hell help by say, loosening our drug laws, to remove the criminal element's money supply, or maybe, just maybe, GASP enforce the border!!! But, if Mexico wants the guns out, then they can shore up the border, with their police. They can fuck over their citizens, but they'd best stop expecting us to bend over for their failure.


Why would they smuggle semiautomatic firearms in to Mexico when they can buy container's full of fully automatic's from any country that would like to destabilize North America?


You tell me a three step process, in specific terms how to get such kit. I'll tell you a 3 step process to getting guns from the US.

1. Cross border, find American buyer for gun.
2. Get gun from American buyer. If AR, order pistol upper for uber respect points back in Juarez.
3.Cross border back.

Now you tell me how to get in touch with this international conspiracy to make your life worse by selling THE DOPE to willing Americans.


Do you honestly think a cartel that banks $100billion a year doesn't have the resources to buy machine guns from any willing government in the world?

Why would they go through the hassle of smuggling guns in when they can just buy them outright?

occam's razor

I think I know what's going on here.

The cartelistas are getting their rifles from the Mexican Army, hence "happy switch."

Mexican private citizens are getting their guns from relatives taking them over the border/paying off border guards etc.

The confiscated guns are the guns taken from the private citizens, who now have been paid, according to the LEO contacts I see weekly, shit-tons of money by the cartelistas to riot, rebel, and attack the Mexican Army and Police. When they drop the weapons, they are confiscated by Mex-Army/Mex LEOs and traced back to the US.

The guns the MA and MLEOs are selling to the cartelistas aren't ever shown if they are "confiscated back." In fact, they're probably sold out the back door to the cartelistas (the actual paying bosses of the MA and MLEOs) overnight out the back door.

The whole place is a giant scam, and it's being used by Com-Bama to dig more leverage so they can form a "more perfect Union" at some point in the future.
Link Posted: 3/28/2009 11:47:09 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Coltman77:
Here is a link to an article published in the L.A. Times recently.

http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/world/la-fg-mexico-arms-race15-2009mar15,0,229992.story


The majority of the guns are not coming from the US.


OMFG. Maybe they should learn that their ".223 semi auto carbines" are just as effective as the cartel's "5.56 caliburz mashinegun sniper rifle".

This "oh help, we're outgunned!" BS stems from a lack of training and know-how. The Mexican police seem rife with this attitude.
Link Posted: 3/28/2009 11:51:36 AM EDT
Originally Posted By fr4th0:
OK, I've got a suggestion:

1) Temporarily wall off the border. I'm talking 20 foot high concrete walls.

2) Build said wall 300 - 500 yards inside OUR border.

3) Allow travel and population flow ONLY at registered crossings.

4) Allow any American who pays a fee to patrol the top of the wall.

5) Anyone caught in 1" to 500 yards from the wall, NOT at an authorized border crossing, is allowed to be shot.

I don't think you'll see the influx of immigrants, and Mexico can't complain that it's our fault any longer. Fuck'em.



Shut down American businesses and ranches? Genius.

Why does everyone insist on punishing AMERICANS for this problem?
Link Posted: 3/28/2009 12:17:17 PM EDT
The problem is the border, not gun shows.

It's funny, why isn't Canada crying about baby-killing machine grenade launchers coming from North Dakota gun shows?
Link Posted: 3/28/2009 12:33:25 PM EDT
Originally Posted By RileyS:
Originally Posted By Coltman77:
Here is a link to an article published in the L.A. Times recently.

http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/world/la-fg-mexico-arms-race15-2009mar15,0,229992.story


The majority of the guns are not coming from the US.


OMFG. Maybe they should learn that their ".223 semi auto carbines" are just as effective as the cartel's "5.56 caliburz mashinegun sniper rifle".

This "oh help, we're outgunned!" BS stems from a lack of training and know-how. The Mexican police seem rife with this attitude.







I read somewhere recently that at any given time 20% of the Mexican police force is under investigation for corruption or criminal activity of some sort.

They're real capable warriors.

Link Posted: 3/28/2009 12:38:48 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Primos:
Originally Posted By Fister:
So by your understandings. These guys dont have drill presses and metal files in mexico huh. Last I checked a semi auto form of most of our "sporter" type rifles can be pretty easily modified in any machine shop. Even in mexico.

Think about what you are saying. No these are probably not crossing over as MG's but the ones that are are most likely converted in mexico.


How old are you?


Question should be how fucking stupid does he think WE are...

Link Posted: 3/28/2009 12:39:50 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/28/2009 12:42:51 PM EDT by NYPatriot]
Wow... what a surprise that left wing propaganda is dripping from the lips of "Fister"...

http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=1&f=5&t=837933

Dont know about you but when I vote I really look at the Vice and the Pres equally. The number one reason I see problems with the current admin is with Biden in there. I really dont like his history. More so than any other person who ran actually. Dont get me wrong Obama is no saint either.

And who I voted for is my business.

I wonder how we would have faired so far under a McCain / Hilary cabnet? Now that would have been bipartisan.


Care to tell us who voted for now, or is it still a big secret?
Link Posted: 3/28/2009 12:50:14 PM EDT
I kind of understand the OP's stance on this issue, in a way. First off, he is right in that it isn't our problem. If Mexico doesn't like the idea that some guns come from here to there, then maybe they should build their own fucking wall.

Second, as we all know, the media depicting FA's, grenades, explosives, etc., DID NOT come from here. The problem, though, is that their statements about automatic assault rifles is often mistated in regards to incidents that happen here. So it's hard to know what type of weapons are actually used. AND as stated, until these serial numbers are released, we will never fucking know. I'm sure there is an unknown portion of guns coming from here to there, but 90% is .

SO, the point I take away from OP is that REGARDLESS of where the guns come from, BOO FUCKING HOO, MEXICO.
Link Posted: 3/28/2009 12:53:29 PM EDT
Originally Posted By fatalerror113:
I would also like to say this:

Buying rifles is one thing, why go to SA when you can get FA? I agree that it makes little sense to pay american prices for semi-auto clones.

Handguns is a whole different animal.

Many handguns I've seen in south america were shit. Even the ones in use by the policia. Most arfcommers have nicer handguns than they do.

If Mexico is anyway similar, cartel members would have to be an idiot not to want to come to the US, buy a nice handgun for relatively cheap.

I would suspect that this is where the "90% of the weapons in mexico are from the US" statistics. It probably is somewhat true, since 90% of the weapons used by the drug gangs are probably handguns, and we sure do have nice handguns here.



So you think the cartels are fighting a war with pistols?

This whole Mexico getting arms from US citizens is a bunch of B.S. we all know there is a huge panic buy going on here shit you cant even buy an upper and you think The cartels are buying enough AR's to fight a war with ,yeah right .

And why would the cartels buy our over priced Fake a 47's when they can buy the real deal from south and central America for a sack of beans .

This is all about the Gov seizing our 2nd A rights to protect us from the scary Mexicans.
Link Posted: 3/28/2009 1:40:45 PM EDT
There are guns going from the US to Mexico, firearms that were either bought or stolen here in the US. How many do you ask, a whole lot fewer than Mexico and the US DOJ will admit to.

If you see a table full of guns seized in Mexico you could probably ID the firearm that was bought or stolen in the US. Look for the Desert Eagle or some pimped out looking pistol or revolver. Nice grips, stainless, engraed, or something along those lines. If there was a Ruger Ranch or a Mini 30/ Mini-14 it was probably bought or stolen.

But the AK's, MP5s, Uzis,G-3, and even the M-16, not to mention the RPG's and grenaders are probably bought off the international market, it either that or disappeared from some Mexican .Gov arsenal.

This is my care face.

Link Posted: 3/28/2009 1:49:44 PM EDT
Originally Posted By 53vortec:
1) The machineguns and RPGs aren't coming from the US. It's easier and more econimical for the to arm themselves with weapons from other countries, and they end up with much more effective weapons for their trade. It's nonsense at best, and blatant disinformation at worst.

2) The wall is a horrible idea. Why is EVERYONE on BOTH sides of the debate so opposed to just unfucking the Border Patrol?


This.

Oh, and a brief thought for the OP. If you wish to persuade people to adopt your point of view, calling them dim-witted idiots probably isn't the best way to go about it. Just saying.
Link Posted: 3/28/2009 3:40:08 PM EDT
Originally Posted By 69firebirdconv:
I kind of understand the OP's stance on this issue, in a way. First off, he is right in that it isn't our problem. If Mexico doesn't like the idea that some guns come from here to there, then maybe they should build their own fucking wall.

Second, as we all know, the media depicting FA's, grenades, explosives, etc., DID NOT come from here. The problem, though, is that their statements about automatic assault rifles is often mistated in regards to incidents that happen here. So it's hard to know what type of weapons are actually used. AND as stated, until these serial numbers are released, we will never fucking know. I'm sure there is an unknown portion of guns coming from here to there, but 90% is .

SO, the point I take away from OP is that REGARDLESS of where the guns come from, BOO FUCKING HOO, MEXICO.


Wow it took to page two for someone to read. I will buy you a beer there bud.

I never said a %. But as well all are aware there are guns in mexico in the hands of our agressors that came from the US. Why you may ask. Because its easier to bring them in at the boarder for the boarder towns than it is to smuggle then into mexico and all the way up to the border. I never said shit about the HE and explosives. With the kind of money these guys get for their drugs. Do you really think they care about weapon prices. They will pay what ever is being asked so long as they view it as a safer transaction.

Point of the matter is its not an american gun owner problem. Its a border problem. If the borders were secure this would all be a non issue now wouldn't it.

Let me put it to you simply.

Cartels cant make drugs magically appear on our side. It travels in a line from point of origin to point of delivery. You throw a huge concrete wall in the middle with armed GI's and guess what. The line suddenly stops now doesnt it. And who is making all the ruckus right now in the media. The people that oppose said wall. Damn people open your eyes. There are so many good things that can come of this.

The value of a human life is unmeasurable. I am not opposing immigration. I am actually for it. They will work their hearts out for the american dream we all take for granted. The reason for restricton and laws governing over illegal immigration (in my book anyway) is for their own protection. Example. When a remodel is done at a older mall they run into asbestos they have to abate it. Why because its hazardous as fuck and can shorten your lifespan in nothing flat. So you can either pay Joe americans company to do it right which means big $$ and white suits with big costs to business to shut down for clean up. Or they can hire cheap import labor. Which is faster and saves them thousands. Illegal immigrants are taken advantage of every day here in the US. They are exposed to many extremely harmful and hazardous materials with little to no safety gear. Why you may ask. Becasue there is dick they can do about it. They are illegal and take what ever jobs are availble to them. Most of the time they are not even properly breifed on what they are going to be exposed to or how dangerious what it is they are actually doing. If there are not more restrictive measures taken to address this issue more lives will be lost and more medical bills will pop up unpaid by illegal immigrants. There is so much that can be done to fix things but everyone seems happy just bitching and moaning about them instead. Think about all those immigrant workers out in the fields doing the dirty work for us. Its increadable to me. They work in tattered clothing until their fingertips bleed. But you know what I see when I read a can of pesticide. Lots of big warning lables. But hey, who cares right. No one cares about the well being of Havier and his family or the toxins he and his kids are exposed to. Especially when legit labor would be a few $$ more an hour. Thats my money and I am a greedy american so to hell with that. That would mean I would have to put off my new 60" plazma tv for my new half a mil 4000 sq foot ranch house.
Link Posted: 3/28/2009 3:46:47 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/28/2009 3:47:00 PM EDT by 103]
Originally Posted By Fister:
Originally Posted By 69firebirdconv:
I kind of understand the OP's stance on this issue, in a way. First off, he is right in that it isn't our problem. If Mexico doesn't like the idea that some guns come from here to there, then maybe they should build their own fucking wall.

Second, as we all know, the media depicting FA's, grenades, explosives, etc., DID NOT come from here. The problem, though, is that their statements about automatic assault rifles is often mistated in regards to incidents that happen here. So it's hard to know what type of weapons are actually used. AND as stated, until these serial numbers are released, we will never fucking know. I'm sure there is an unknown portion of guns coming from here to there, but 90% is .

SO, the point I take away from OP is that REGARDLESS of where the guns come from, BOO FUCKING HOO, MEXICO.


Wow it took to page two for someone to read. I will buy you a beer there bud.

I never said a %. But as well all are aware there are guns in mexico in the hands of our agressors that came from the US. Why you may ask. Because its easier to bring them in at the boarder for the boarder towns than it is to smuggle then into mexico and all the way up to the border. I never said shit about the HE and explosives. With the kind of money these guys get for their drugs. Do you really think they care about weapon prices. They will pay what ever is being asked so long as they view it as a safer transaction.

Point of the matter is its not an american gun owner problem. Its a border problem. If the borders were secure this would all be a non issue now wouldn't it.

Let me put it to you simply.

Cartels cant make drugs magically appear on our side. It travels in a line from point of origin to point of delivery. You throw a huge concrete wall in the middle with armed GI's and guess what. The line suddenly stops now doesnt it. And who is making all the ruckus right now in the media. The people that oppose said wall. Damn people open your eyes. There are so many good things that can come of this.

The value of a human life is unmeasurable. I am not opposing immigration. I am actually for it. They will work their hearts out for the american dream we all take for granted. The reason for restricton and laws governing over illegal immigration (in my book anyway) is for their own protection. Example. When a remodel is done at a older mall they run into asbestos they have to abate it. Why because its hazardous as fuck and can shorten your lifespan in nothing flat. So you can either pay Joe americans company to do it right which means big $$ and white suits with big costs to business to shut down for clean up. Or they can hire cheap import labor. Which is faster and saves them thousands. Illegal immigrants are taken advantage of every day here in the US. They are exposed to many extremely harmful and hazardous materials with little to no safety gear. Why you may ask. Becasue there is dick they can do about it. They are illegal and take what ever jobs are availble to them. Most of the time they are not even properly breifed on what they are going to be exposed to or how dangerious what it is they are actually doing. If there are not more restrictive measures taken to address this issue more lives will be lost and more medical bills will pop up unpaid by illegal immigrants. There is so much that can be done to fix things but everyone seems happy just bitching and moaning about them instead. Think about all those immigrant workers out in the fields doing the dirty work for us. Its increadable to me. They work in tattered clothing until their fingertips bleed. But you know what I see when I read a can of pesticide. Lots of big warning lables. But hey, who cares right. No one cares about the well being of Havier and his family or the toxins he and his kids are exposed to. Especially when legit labor would be a few $$ more an hour. Thats my money and I am a greedy american so to hell with that. That would mean I would have to put off my new 60" plazma tv for my new half a mil 4000 sq foot ranch house.


You, sir, are a troll.
Link Posted: 3/28/2009 3:58:48 PM EDT
Originally Posted By 103:

You, sir, are a troll.


Really. Why. What is so flawed about my view.

So then its a gun law issue? Not a border issue?
Immigrants are worth less perhaps to you? Even though they are the foot men of the american agriculture industry and construction industry?
So you think its really our problem then and not Mexico's and our borders.

Look we can either realistically debate this and maybe get some results or stick with the quick insults. If we could actually pull together and get along in place of all the insults getting posted maybe we could get some damn good ideas out there and workable results.
Link Posted: 3/28/2009 4:11:55 PM EDT
Originally Posted By fatalerror113:


And, not practical.

If a fucking noise wall for a highway costs 1.5million/mile can you even freaking imagine what that would cost?

If you can't widening a road without jumping though a year of legal hoops to get all the necessary environment approval do you really think a wall will ever be allowed on the southern border?

Aggressively patrolling the border would be FAR more cost effective and realistic than a wall, especially and uber wall such as this.





This..

if you have not been to the border your opinion on security and what works and what doesnt is empty

the fact is, almost all along the invisible border line there is some kind of fence, chain link, steel mesh, panels or poles
the problem is, the border is unguarded.

Driving by once an hour to see whats up doesnt count as being guarded, leaving the border completely empty for shift change for 30mins to an hour doesnt count as being guarded

if it is guarded 24/7 all the way across this would be better
Link Posted: 3/28/2009 4:20:35 PM EDT
the fix is..seal the northern & southern borders up tight....
Link Posted: 3/28/2009 4:42:03 PM EDT
You think multi-billion dollar drug cartels in Mexico are going to buy U.S. guns in one-off sales through straw purchases? And then smuggle them into Mexico? And then convert them to full-auto? That's very costly. That's time consuming. That's needlessly complex. That's just... stupid.

Why would they do that when they can buy, literally, a cargo container filled with thousands of true factory-built machine guns from overseas? China's been doing it for years. Do you remember the cargo container of brand new, Polytech full-auto AK-47's that reached the port of Long Beach, California (source)? They were headed for L.A. gangs. You think L.A. gangs can do it, but multi-billion dollar drug cartels that control parts of Mexico's government and military can't???

They could get used weapons even cheaper, from eastern Europe, the middle East, or Africa. If Century Arms can buy full-auto AK-47's, PAY someone to demil them, and sell them as parts-kits or build them into semi-autos for a profit... HELLO, it would be even cheaper for the cartels just to buy them, without any markup or demil costs. Not to mention what everyone else is saying about the grenades, missiles, and explosives that they have, that are certainly NOT coming from gun shows or gun stores.

And you think thousands of individual straw purchases, managed by hundreds of smugglers, being snuck across the border, followed by full-auto conversion, is the EASY ANSWER??? Talk about being dumber than the guys on DU...
Link Posted: 3/28/2009 5:28:32 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/28/2009 5:32:48 PM EDT by patrickcudd]
Originally Posted By 103:
Originally Posted By Fister:
Originally Posted By 69firebirdconv:
I kind of understand the OP's stance on this issue, in a way. First off, he is right in that it isn't our problem. If Mexico doesn't like the idea that some guns come from here to there, then maybe they should build their own fucking wall.

Second, as we all know, the media depicting FA's, grenades, explosives, etc., DID NOT come from here. The problem, though, is that their statements about automatic assault rifles is often mistated in regards to incidents that happen here. So it's hard to know what type of weapons are actually used. AND as stated, until these serial numbers are released, we will never fucking know. I'm sure there is an unknown portion of guns coming from here to there, but 90% is .

SO, the point I take away from OP is that REGARDLESS of where the guns come from, BOO FUCKING HOO, MEXICO.


Wow it took to page two for someone to read. I will buy you a beer there bud.

I never said a %. But as well all are aware there are guns in mexico in the hands of our agressors that came from the US. Why you may ask. Because its easier to bring them in at the boarder for the boarder towns than it is to smuggle then into mexico and all the way up to the border. I never said shit about the HE and explosives. With the kind of money these guys get for their drugs. Do you really think they care about weapon prices. They will pay what ever is being asked so long as they view it as a safer transaction.

Point of the matter is its not an american gun owner problem. Its a border problem. If the borders were secure this would all be a non issue now wouldn't it.

Let me put it to you simply.

Cartels cant make drugs magically appear on our side. It travels in a line from point of origin to point of delivery. You throw a huge concrete wall in the middle with armed GI's and guess what. The line suddenly stops now doesnt it. And who is making all the ruckus right now in the media. The people that oppose said wall. Damn people open your eyes. There are so many good things that can come of this.

The value of a human life is unmeasurable. I am not opposing immigration. I am actually for it. They will work their hearts out for the american dream we all take for granted. The reason for restricton and laws governing over illegal immigration (in my book anyway) is for their own protection. Example. When a remodel is done at a older mall they run into asbestos they have to abate it. Why because its hazardous as fuck and can shorten your lifespan in nothing flat. So you can either pay Joe americans company to do it right which means big $$ and white suits with big costs to business to shut down for clean up. Or they can hire cheap import labor. Which is faster and saves them thousands. Illegal immigrants are taken advantage of every day here in the US. They are exposed to many extremely harmful and hazardous materials with little to no safety gear. Why you may ask. Becasue there is dick they can do about it. They are illegal and take what ever jobs are availble to them. Most of the time they are not even properly breifed on what they are going to be exposed to or how dangerious what it is they are actually doing. If there are not more restrictive measures taken to address this issue more lives will be lost and more medical bills will pop up unpaid by illegal immigrants. There is so much that can be done to fix things but everyone seems happy just bitching and moaning about them instead. Think about all those immigrant workers out in the fields doing the dirty work for us. Its increadable to me. They work in tattered clothing until their fingertips bleed. But you know what I see when I read a can of pesticide. Lots of big warning lables. But hey, who cares right. No one cares about the well being of Havier and his family or the toxins he and his kids are exposed to. Especially when legit labor would be a few $$ more an hour. Thats my money and I am a greedy american so to hell with that. That would mean I would have to put off my new 60" plazma tv for my new half a mil 4000 sq foot ranch house.


You, sir, are a troll.


You, sir, can't read, or are not very bright!

Link Posted: 3/28/2009 5:50:58 PM EDT
I had a long idea thought out and ready to post but I will condense it:
A. Full-auto, grenades, RPG, etc are coming from individuals and governments in South and Central America, China, and many of the former Eastern Bloc countries that are supplying weapons to "freedom fighters". No way a real cartel is going to waste time/resources for semi-auto weapons.
B. The smaller gangs and runners will tend to have weapons that have been stolen or bought within the US. They are small time guys that can obtain full-auto when they pick them up off the dead or traded for.
C. Why is it the US problem to police the Mexican government? Because we have bailed Mexico out several times––should have stayed out of it all along.
D. What can be done to keep the violence on the border down––fight violence with violence. Guard the border, protect the border, put enough boots on the ground to make a difference, make a statement that we are tired of all the shit that is being brought across.
Link Posted: 3/28/2009 5:54:35 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Fister:
Originally Posted By 69firebirdconv:
I kind of understand the OP's stance on this issue, in a way. First off, he is right in that it isn't our problem. If Mexico doesn't like the idea that some guns come from here to there, then maybe they should build their own fucking wall.

Second, as we all know, the media depicting FA's, grenades, explosives, etc., DID NOT come from here. The problem, though, is that their statements about automatic assault rifles is often mistated in regards to incidents that happen here. So it's hard to know what type of weapons are actually used. AND as stated, until these serial numbers are released, we will never fucking know. I'm sure there is an unknown portion of guns coming from here to there, but 90% is .

SO, the point I take away from OP is that REGARDLESS of where the guns come from, BOO FUCKING HOO, MEXICO.


Wow it took to page two for someone to read. I will buy you a beer there bud.

I never said a %. But as well all are aware there are guns in mexico in the hands of our agressors that came from the US. Why you may ask. Because its easier to bring them in at the boarder for the boarder towns than it is to smuggle then into mexico and all the way up to the border. I never said shit about the HE and explosives. With the kind of money these guys get for their drugs. Do you really think they care about weapon prices. They will pay what ever is being asked so long as they view it as a safer transaction.

Point of the matter is its not an american gun owner problem. Its a border problem. If the borders were secure this would all be a non issue now wouldn't it.

Let me put it to you simply.

Cartels cant make drugs magically appear on our side. It travels in a line from point of origin to point of delivery. You throw a huge concrete wall in the middle with armed GI's and guess what. The line suddenly stops now doesnt it. And who is making all the ruckus right now in the media. The people that oppose said wall. Damn people open your eyes. There are so many good things that can come of this.

The value of a human life is unmeasurable. I am not opposing immigration. I am actually for it. They will work their hearts out for the american dream we all take for granted. The reason for restricton and laws governing over illegal immigration (in my book anyway) is for their own protection. Example. When a remodel is done at a older mall they run into asbestos they have to abate it. Why because its hazardous as fuck and can shorten your lifespan in nothing flat. So you can either pay Joe americans company to do it right which means big $$ and white suits with big costs to business to shut down for clean up. Or they can hire cheap import labor. Which is faster and saves them thousands. Illegal immigrants are taken advantage of every day here in the US. They are exposed to many extremely harmful and hazardous materials with little to no safety gear. Why you may ask. Becasue there is dick they can do about it. They are illegal and take what ever jobs are availble to them. Most of the time they are not even properly breifed on what they are going to be exposed to or how dangerious what it is they are actually doing. If there are not more restrictive measures taken to address this issue more lives will be lost and more medical bills will pop up unpaid by illegal immigrants. There is so much that can be done to fix things but everyone seems happy just bitching and moaning about them instead. Think about all those immigrant workers out in the fields doing the dirty work for us. Its increadable to me. They work in tattered clothing until their fingertips bleed. But you know what I see when I read a can of pesticide. Lots of big warning lables. But hey, who cares right. No one cares about the well being of Havier and his family or the toxins he and his kids are exposed to. Especially when legit labor would be a few $$ more an hour. Thats my money and I am a greedy american so to hell with that. That would mean I would have to put off my new 60" plazma tv for my new half a mil 4000 sq foot ranch house.


And why is he a troll? This kind of business happens all the time. It would be nice to act like it doesn't happen but it does. Kinda of like when an ostrich puts it head in the ground and think it is safe; well, the lion sneaks up and and it is all over. Hmmm, this is the situation we are in
Link Posted: 3/28/2009 6:01:51 PM EDT
WALL, CLOSE THE BORDER, ENFORCE THE LAW.

SORRY ABOUT THE CAPS LOCK.
Link Posted: 3/28/2009 6:03:07 PM EDT
In foreign countries, you could get a fully automatic AK47 for around $150.

Or you could get a semi auto AK copy in the US for $500.

Yeah I'll get the expensive one for my drug cartel.
Link Posted: 3/28/2009 6:05:41 PM EDT
Some douchebag field supervisor told Greta Van Susteren that they had recovered a HUGE stash of machine guns that came from Connecticut.

Stupid Motherfucker!

Every single god-damned Colt M-16 they find down there is going to say "Hartford, Connecticut" on it.

So, by ATF standards, the MANUFACTURER is the entity selling and exporting illegal guns into Mexico?

Stupid Mother fuckers!
Link Posted: 3/28/2009 6:10:42 PM EDT
Link Posted: 3/28/2009 6:11:29 PM EDT
Show me one gun from a Mexican drug crime that was purchased legally in the US and I'll show you ten more that were purchased by Mexican LE or the Mexican military and illegally sold to Mexican criminals.

What's more, the number of straw purchases––legal purchases if the gun were in fact going to be owned by the purchaser––is much much lower than we are being led to believe.

Mexican criminals get their firearms from Mexican cops. If you've ever been to real Mexico (not white Mexico) you know that the cops are at least as bad as the crooks.
Link Posted: 3/28/2009 6:12:18 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Skibane:
If you dim witted idiots think for one second that these guys who are bringing these drugs across out border and collecting big $$ here in the states are not making a stop at fun shows and buying guns and ammo for their return trip back. You are really dumber than the guys on DU.


Most of us here are smart enough to know the difference between a comma and a period.

We also know that you have to pass a NICS check to buy firearms from a gun show dealer - which means you have to be a legal U.S. resident, and you can't be a felon - which rules out most drug dealers.

Most of us know that the full-auto weapons, grenades and RPGs commonly used by Mexican drug dealers aren't available at American gun shows.


/thread.

Link Posted: 3/28/2009 6:13:59 PM EDT
Show us the serial number traces showing how they came from the US. Until then, it's bullshit.
Link Posted: 3/28/2009 6:14:39 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Fister:
So by your understandings. These guys dont have drill presses and metal files in mexico huh. Last I checked a semi auto form of most of our "sporter" type rifles can be pretty easily modified in any machine shop. Even in mexico.

Think about what you are saying. No these are probably not crossing over as MG's but the ones that are are most likely converted in mexico.


Tell us exactly WHY they would even go through the trouble of doing this when they can order CRATES of AKs from china at 40 bucks a piece all day long?

They have them brought into ports in central america... then transported over land..

Who is the idiot again?

Link Posted: 3/28/2009 6:17:19 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/28/2009 6:56:15 PM EDT by TKoProductions]
I don't care if they are getting their guns from the U.S.

If they are, it's their governments problem not ours.

Let the Mexican government install check points at the border. Maybe hiring border security agents will help employee people who otherwise would be immigrating illegally to the U.S.
Link Posted: 3/28/2009 6:18:29 PM EDT
OK, I'll bite.

WHY would the Cartel pay a premium for traceable SEMI-autos they then have to smuggle INTO Mexico and then convert (if possible) to full auto?

Would it not be easier for them to buy Military weapons from bankrupt countries or from their own military, which is corrupt as all get out?

Think about it.

Anyone know the actual ratio of semi-auto rifles to true military arms being seized?
Link Posted: 3/28/2009 6:20:40 PM EDT
Originally Posted By RileyS:
Originally Posted By gonzo_beyondo:

Yes, but what of all the Semi-auto guns found? You don't think the mexican military is using WASR10's? Face it folks, the guns come from here.



I know you're having fun with your rant and all...

but you seem completely oblivious to the fact that Venezuela has Russian AKs up the ass, and last I heard, are or were building a factory for mass production.

Why on earth would Mexicans bother with 5-10 WASRs when they can ring up ol' buddy Chavez and have 5K-10K Russian AKs the next day?


I dunno, that's not anything I'd know about, but take a look at guns layed out from confiscations off drug dealers and show me the third pin hole.


For someone who admits they don't know anything about the subject, you sure are insistent that the guns come from here.

They are not doing what they are doing down there with semiautos.
Link Posted: 3/28/2009 6:22:42 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/28/2009 6:40:40 PM EDT by Fister]
Originally Posted By rexydg7:
Originally Posted By Fister:
So by your understandings. These guys dont have drill presses and metal files in mexico huh. Last I checked a semi auto form of most of our "sporter" type rifles can be pretty easily modified in any machine shop. Even in mexico.

Think about what you are saying. No these are probably not crossing over as MG's but the ones that are are most likely converted in mexico.


Tell us exactly WHY they would even go through the trouble of doing this when they can order CRATES of AKs from china at 40 bucks a piece all day long?

They have them brought into ports in central america... then transported over land..

Who is the idiot again?





AK's cost more than that on the street in Iraq.

Believe it or not this thread actually addresses the real issues at hand. Which is clearly stated in my original post on page 1. Its not the guns. Or even the reports that confirmed that 90% of the traced firearms came from the US. The twist is in the spin. A much clearer example would be that if Mexico's govt provided our BATFE with say 10 firearm serial numbers to trace and guess what of those 10, 9 were traced back to the US as origin of purchase. That isnt a lie now is it. Sure its a warped perspective of the truth. But its no lie. No one believes that all of the seized firearms or explosives came from an originating purchase in the US. Just because the provide serials traced back to the US doen't mean that was all the firearms seized.

Fact of the matter remains, instead of placing the blame where it squarely belongs they are pointing in another direction. This misdirection is going unnoticed. Its time to point the finger back at them and let them stew in the blame. Not be sheep and believe everything at face value.
Link Posted: 3/28/2009 6:30:28 PM EDT
Originally Posted By 53vortec:
Originally Posted By fr4th0:
OK, I've got a suggestion:

1) Temporarily wall off the border. I'm talking 20 foot high concrete walls.

2) Build said wall 300 - 500 yards inside OUR border.

3) Allow travel and population flow ONLY at registered crossings.

4) Allow any American who pays a fee to patrol the top of the wall.

5) Anyone caught in 1" to 500 yards from the wall, NOT at an authorized border crossing, is allowed to be shot.

I don't think you'll see the influx of immigrants, and Mexico can't complain that it's our fault any longer. Fuck'em.



Shut down American businesses and ranches? Genius.

Why does everyone insist on punishing AMERICANS for this problem?
American businesses and ranches are on the.. say it slow with me here.... A-M-E-R-I-C-A-N side of the border...

Link Posted: 3/28/2009 6:33:37 PM EDT
Originally Posted By 103:
Originally Posted By Fister:
Originally Posted By 69firebirdconv:
I kind of understand the OP's stance on this issue, in a way. First off, he is right in that it isn't our problem. If Mexico doesn't like the idea that some guns come from here to there, then maybe they should build their own fucking wall.

Second, as we all know, the media depicting FA's, grenades, explosives, etc., DID NOT come from here. The problem, though, is that their statements about automatic assault rifles is often mistated in regards to incidents that happen here. So it's hard to know what type of weapons are actually used. AND as stated, until these serial numbers are released, we will never fucking know. I'm sure there is an unknown portion of guns coming from here to there, but 90% is .

SO, the point I take away from OP is that REGARDLESS of where the guns come from, BOO FUCKING HOO, MEXICO.


Wow it took to page two for someone to read. I will buy you a beer there bud.

I never said a %. But as well all are aware there are guns in mexico in the hands of our agressors that came from the US. Why you may ask. Because its easier to bring them in at the boarder for the boarder towns than it is to smuggle then into mexico and all the way up to the border. I never said shit about the HE and explosives. With the kind of money these guys get for their drugs. Do you really think they care about weapon prices. They will pay what ever is being asked so long as they view it as a safer transaction.

Point of the matter is its not an american gun owner problem. Its a border problem. If the borders were secure this would all be a non issue now wouldn't it.

Let me put it to you simply.

Cartels cant make drugs magically appear on our side. It travels in a line from point of origin to point of delivery. You throw a huge concrete wall in the middle with armed GI's and guess what. The line suddenly stops now doesnt it. And who is making all the ruckus right now in the media. The people that oppose said wall. Damn people open your eyes. There are so many good things that can come of this.

The value of a human life is unmeasurable. I am not opposing immigration. I am actually for it. They will work their hearts out for the american dream we all take for granted. The reason for restricton and laws governing over illegal immigration (in my book anyway) is for their own protection. Example. When a remodel is done at a older mall they run into asbestos they have to abate it. Why because its hazardous as fuck and can shorten your lifespan in nothing flat. So you can either pay Joe americans company to do it right which means big $$ and white suits with big costs to business to shut down for clean up. Or they can hire cheap import labor. Which is faster and saves them thousands. Illegal immigrants are taken advantage of every day here in the US. They are exposed to many extremely harmful and hazardous materials with little to no safety gear. Why you may ask. Becasue there is dick they can do about it. They are illegal and take what ever jobs are availble to them. Most of the time they are not even properly breifed on what they are going to be exposed to or how dangerious what it is they are actually doing. If there are not more restrictive measures taken to address this issue more lives will be lost and more medical bills will pop up unpaid by illegal immigrants. There is so much that can be done to fix things but everyone seems happy just bitching and moaning about them instead. Think about all those immigrant workers out in the fields doing the dirty work for us. Its increadable to me. They work in tattered clothing until their fingertips bleed. But you know what I see when I read a can of pesticide. Lots of big warning lables. But hey, who cares right. No one cares about the well being of Havier and his family or the toxins he and his kids are exposed to. Especially when legit labor would be a few $$ more an hour. Thats my money and I am a greedy american so to hell with that. That would mean I would have to put off my new 60" plazma tv for my new half a mil 4000 sq foot ranch house.


You, sir, are a troll.



Yep.. another obamaphile that is probably a whole 16 years old... it's past your bedtime son.
Link Posted: 3/28/2009 6:37:40 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Fister:
Originally Posted By rexydg7:
Originally Posted By Fister:
So by your understandings. These guys dont have drill presses and metal files in mexico huh. Last I checked a semi auto form of most of our "sporter" type rifles can be pretty easily modified in any machine shop. Even in mexico.

Think about what you are saying. No these are probably not crossing over as MG's but the ones that are are most likely converted in mexico.


Tell us exactly WHY they would even go through the trouble of doing this when they can order CRATES of AKs from china at 40 bucks a piece all day long?

They have them brought into ports in central america... then transported over land..

Who is the idiot again?





AK's cost more than that on the street in Iraq.



Liar.

Link Posted: 3/28/2009 6:39:49 PM EDT
Originally Posted By alphajaguars:
When I was in Panama, there was a guy called "Blue", a Panamanian national, who could get you anything you wanted.

He offered to sell me a crate of real AK-47's for $300.00.

Do you really think that the cartels are paying $500.00 + for a semi auto version so they can then convert it?



Here I'll quote this post for you...

Crate 300 bucks..

fool.
Link Posted: 3/28/2009 6:41:03 PM EDT
I don't give a damn if the guns come from here.

Here's a question... if free and easy access to these "dangerous assault weapons" is the cause of violence, then why isn't all the violence here where the guns are easy to get?


Close the borders, problem solved.


But really, since when are MY rights determinined by what some criminall might do... and in another country at that.


I just don't care if the Mexicans kill each other. Maybe the Mexican people will rise up and overthrow their government? One could only hope.

But that is Mexico's problem. Build a wall, stop the flow of illegals both ways, and you stop the drug problem, the illegal alien problem, and Mexico's gun problem.

But we will NOT be disarmed because of criminals.

The worst criminals are in Washington, DC. We need our guns to protect ourselves from them.
Link Posted: 3/28/2009 6:44:19 PM EDT
Originally Posted By A_Free_Man:
I don't give a damn if the guns come from here.

Here's a question... if free and easy access to these "dangerous assault weapons" is the cause of violence, then why isn't all the violence here where the guns are easy to get?


Close the borders, problem solved.


But really, since when are MY rights determinined by what some criminall might do... and in another country at that.


I just don't care if the Mexicans kill each other. Maybe the Mexican people will rise up and overthrow their government? One could only hope.

But that is Mexico's problem. Build a wall, stop the flow of illegals both ways, and you stop the drug problem, the illegal alien problem, and Mexico's gun problem.

But we will NOT be disarmed because of criminals.

The worst criminals are in Washington, DC. We need our guns to protect ourselves from them.


Originally Posted By Fister:
So by your understandings. These guys dont have drill presses and metal files in mexico huh.


But.. but.. but, those metal files and all... they is so easy to convert... just file down the firing pin... and drill holes... bingo war weapon!

Link Posted: 3/28/2009 6:46:12 PM EDT
Originally Posted By colsonkentucky:
they separated the 2 germanys with a wall, for the security of america why cant they build a wall not a fence to separate mexico and the united states. it is time america takes care of its own. FUCK THE GOD DAM MEXICANS .


What's wrong with Mexicans?
Link Posted: 3/28/2009 6:48:48 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/28/2009 7:20:34 PM EDT by mstennes]
If they were made by Colt wouldnt they have been made in the USA, sold to Mexico, then resold or stolen? Not being a smart ass or anti here, I find it odd no pictures or serial numbers and the only "proof" we have is from the BATF and the news, wtf? No other agencys are reporting it! I think we really are not supposed to know the real destinaion of these rifles, if it came out they were sold to Mexico and were now on the streets.
Link Posted: 3/28/2009 6:50:42 PM EDT
Here's another talking point.

The cartels are already HERE.

Article on CNN stated they are setting up shop in Atlanta to use as central distribution point for Eastern Seaboard.

Is it really inconceivable the gun battles we see in Mexico could pop up here?

Honest US citizens may need their "semi-automatic " rifles sooner than previously thought.
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