Quoted: Quoted: 70s and 80s rough for US auto makers, you guys are just stuck there.   I guess I must be imagining my trouble free times, so must the other guys with 400K+ miles on their american cars.... I guess we must have drank too much.    I'm sorry, you guys are right.   I'll run right out and buy Japanese, fuck the US economy.   Who gives a crap what happens here.....   You are so right!! People don't think about our economy when they buy thier foreign cars. They don't think of the jobs lost due to this. We'll, they will be the ones complaining when our economy goes down the drain and Japan is the new superpower. We'll be the ones standing there saying "I told you so" Kris

Nope, I don't think about the economy at all. I think of the Firestone incidents, the recent Ford recall in which trucks caught fire after being turned off, and the frequent recalls of Ford trucks, SUVs, and Cars.

I think of my first car, a Mitsubishi made Dodge Colt.

I think of the UAW running Marines out of their parking lot, and the UAW endorsement of John Kerry.

I think of American companies making cars in Mexico while Japanese companies are building cars in the U.S.

If Ford, GM, or the others made a comparable car to mine with favorable safety and reliability ratings, I would have bought one. They didn't, and I don't regrest buying Japanese.

American car companies don't seem to give a shit about Americans, but Toyota will shut down a dealership that has too many complaints.

I will continue buying Toyota vehicles as long as the quality is better and the service beats the American companies.

Guy at work has a newer Chevy Blazer and swears he's replaced about everything on it by now.....many components two or three times.  Seems like everytime he goes out of town and comes back, he has to update us on the latest thing that went wrong with the piece of shit.  He does enjoy driving it and likes the space, but it's giving him a lot of grief.

My other question would be.... Why is it that American Auto Magazines constantly rate the Jap cars as better then those from the Big Three?  Don't they understand they are influencing American's to buy cars from the Japanese and causing the US to go into a recession?  Perhaps all those writers should be fired for not "towing the line"?  

Whaaaa, whaaaa, whaaaaa.

HINT: If you don't like the repetitive motion of your job, do like the rest of the country-FIND A NEW FUCKING JOB.

Your union skills should take you far, Grasshopper.

Quoted: Quoted: 70s and 80s rough for US auto makers, you guys are just stuck there.   I guess I must be imagining my trouble free times, so must the other guys with 400K+ miles on their american cars.... I guess we must have drank too much.    I'm sorry, you guys are right.   I'll run right out and buy Japanese, fuck the US economy.   Who gives a crap what happens here.....   You are so right!! People don't think about our economy when they buy thier foreign cars. They don't think of the jobs lost due to this. We'll, they will be the ones complaining when our economy goes down the drain and Japan is the new superpower. We'll be the ones standing there saying "I told you so" Kris

Welcome to capitalism...

Most Americans look for something that lasts...

Perhaps the American Companies need a wake up call?

I think the Tundra plant is UAW.
Where can you find a list of what vehicles are UAW and which ones aren't?
Got to know what to buy.
(One way or the other)

Proud UAW worker socialist

Fixed it for you...

Quoted: Given a choice between buying a Chevy made in Mexico by Mexican workers and a Toyota made in Kentucky by American workers,  it's no contest!   Toyota, please! FUCK the unions.  FUCK the over-paid, 35-dollar-an-hour bolt monkey whose absurdly high wages are part of the very REASOn why the domestic auto makers send much of the work to other countries! There's more authentic US parts content in a US made Camry than in a Mexican made Ford or Chevy. Add in the fact that the US made car is made with US labor even though the brand name is Japanese, and the situation becomes very plain. CJ

+1

Quoted: Quoted: My american cars fell apart, my japanese cars have not; tell Toyota whatcha think of them. +1 When American cars start thinking of quality... I'll start buying them.

They have, but the lines are pretty limited.  IIRC, the number one rated car for reliability last year was a Cadillac and two or three of the top five were big 3 cars.  On the whole Toyota/Honda/Nissan still own the big 3 for reliability though.

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: My american cars fell apart, my japanese cars have not; tell Toyota whatcha think of them. +1 When American cars start thinking of quality... I'll start buying them. They have, but the lines are pretty limited.  IIRC, the number one rated car for reliability last year was a Cadillac and two or three of the top five were big 3 cars.  On the whole Toyota/Honda/Nissan still own the big 3 for reliability though.

www.cadillac.com/home.html

How many Americans can afford 40k + cars?

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: My american cars fell apart, my japanese cars have not; tell Toyota whatcha think of them. +1 When American cars start thinking of quality... I'll start buying them. They have, but the lines are pretty limited.  IIRC, the number one rated car for reliability last year was a Cadillac and two or three of the top five were big 3 cars.  On the whole Toyota/Honda/Nissan still own the big 3 for reliability though. www.cadillac.com/home.html How many Americans can afford 40k + cars?

UAW workers.
ironic, isn't it?

Toyota supports Nazis?   Wow.    hat

I do buy American.  I buy Toyotas made in America by Americans.

Benito Mussolini made it so you had to buy only Italian stuff, and imports were more expensive.   You had to buy inferior quality Italian crap than buy good stuff made elsewhere.

I'm sorry, but as an American, I believe in capitalism.   Whine all you want, you commie.

Why can't you people find another product to discuss the whole US/foreign built debate? You all focus on cars while at the same time buying ALL kinds of products made overseas. Who is a bigger traitor:

The guy who drives a GM and at the same time all the cloths on his back and all the products in his home say "made in china."

Or the guy who drives a Toyota Who wears Prison blues, New balance American made shoes And makes an honest attempt at buying american on a daily basis?

I think we beat this one to death far too often.

however I will make one note: The Jap cars seem to get better MPG than the American Cars. Hell GM doesnt even have a car in the 40MPG range...

For those that claim the US automakers' quality this day and age equals that of Toyota only need to go and look at the TSB (technical service bulletins) reports at www.alldata.com

Just randomly I looked up the 2002 year trucks for Dodge, Ford, Chevy and Toyota, matching as close as I can the specs (4wd and the smaller V8's).  I chose 2002 to show a sort of long term effect.


2002 Ford Truck F 150 4WD Pickup V8-4.6L
www.alldata.com/TSB/20/022017dt.html

(2 Recalls and 53 TSB's)



2002 Dodge Truck RAM 1500 4WD Pickup V8-4.7L
www.alldata.com/TSB/17/021778eQ.html

(3 recalls and 43 TSB's)



Now, you want to know what's really wrong with GM these days?  Just look at the numbers for Chevy's entry:
2002 Chevy Truck K 1500 P/U 4WD V8-4.8L
www.alldata.com/TSB/11/021136gc.html

(1 recall, and 158 friggin' TSB's )



And now, Toyota:

2002 Toyota Truck Tundra Access Cab SR5 4WD V8-4.7L
www.alldata.com/TSB/60/026023ad.html

(35 TSB's, and to be fair, 1 recall.  The recall just came out last week so it hasn't shown up yet on alldata's info yet)


Say what you want, but those links and numbers speak for themselves.

I'm sure if someone wanted, you could look up comparable cars at the alldata site and get similar results.

Quoted: Why can't you people find another product to discuss the whole US/foreign built debate? You all focus on cars while at the same time buying ALL kinds of products made overseas. Who is a bigger traitor: The guy who drives a GM and at the same time all the cloths on his back and all the products in his home say "made in china." Or the guy who drives a Toyota Who wears Prison blues, New balance American made shoes And makes an honest attempt at buying american on a daily basis? I think we beat this one to death far too often. however I will make one note: The Jap cars seem to get better MPG than the American Cars. Hell GM doesnt even have a car in the 40MPG range...

I do make purchase decisions on where things are made.
I buy almost all american made guns.  Shotguns are the exception, can't find a very good O/U that is American made in my price range.  If I get the cash, I'll get a Kolar over a Perazzi.
I only run in New Balance (because they fit the best)
Cars are the benchmark because they comprise a perfect marketplace and a MAJOR outlay of cash.  
You are plunking down 30-40K for a truck these days.  Before you start a 72 month payment plan, you want to get your money's worth and not piss it away.
Of that 40K, how much goes to the UAW and democratic party?  $500?
Buy a car, give $500 to John Kerry?
Tough choice.
Somebody do the math on that.  I would be curious what % of each UAW made vehicle goes to the democratic party?

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: My american cars fell apart, my japanese cars have not; tell Toyota whatcha think of them. +1 When American cars start thinking of quality... I'll start buying them. They have, but the lines are pretty limited.  IIRC, the number one rated car for reliability last year was a Cadillac and two or three of the top five were big 3 cars.  On the whole Toyota/Honda/Nissan still own the big 3 for reliability though. www.cadillac.com/home.html How many Americans can afford 40k + cars? UAW workers. ironic, isn't it?

Sorry. I can't afford a $40k car. I'm taking a huge hit on the monthly spending from my $26k car. UAW WORKERS ARE NOT RICH!!!

Quoted: You guys that are bashing GM and the other 2 of the big three need to quit living in the 70's and 80's. GM just got a shitload of awards from JD power and associates for quality.

Shoprat,
from your screen name i assume you are an autoworker. I grew up in Clinton County. My dad and uncles hired on at "Oldsmoble" in the early 70's, which later became BOC (Buick-Olds-Cadillac), but eventually became a Grand Am plant.  I forget what it was called when my dad retired.  We have owned a lot of GM products in the last 10 years.  With the exception of Chevy trucks, everyone of them was crap.  Disposable cars essentially.

GM has two big problems. One is shitty designs, the other is the UAW.  The UAW is what enables the workers to down that first beer or joint on first break.  Several beers or shots during lunch.  Then assemble cars intoxicated or under the influence the rest of the shift.

You want people to buy GM stuff?  Tell your coworkers to quit showing up hung over. To quit sneaking out to the parking lot on first break. To quit having lunch at the bar and one man punching everyone else in and out. Tell the guys in the paint shop to quit stealing paint for their weekend bodyshop.  Tell the VFW/American Legion guy that's supposed to be building cars to quit selling his fundraiser poppies, shamrocks, candybars at work and focus on building cars. Quit giving half the work force the day off on Nov 15 every year. Leaving the other half pissed off that even with 20 years on they still dont have enough "senority" to get opening day off.  Instead of laying everyone off for "changeover", send them to training classes to be better auto builders.  Instead of training the shoprats how not to break the car during assembly, design a better car thats not so fragile.

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: My american cars fell apart, my japanese cars have not; tell Toyota whatcha think of them. +1 When American cars start thinking of quality... I'll start buying them. +1 We have a Toyota Camry and Honda Accord. Not one has broken down yet, or given us the least bit of trouble. Ohhh!! Big friggin deal. My mother has a 95 Bonnevile that has over 200k on it. Besides normal stuff...

Normal stuff for that series includes the power windows not working in the winter.

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Personally I think guys who think American cars are no good are either not paying attention or just plain blind.   This isnt the 70s or 80s, AMERICAN cars are great machines.   My 95 Taco was no better in ANY way than any of the 1990+ american cars I've owned.     Can you say Dodge Dakota/Durango ball joints?? That right there is reason enough to never buy another Daimler Chrysler shitbox... Well, to be fair, Toyota just recalled about 800,000 trucks for ball joint problems...

Because 6 trucks had a problem.  Six problems, so they are fixing them all just in case.  GM could have 6,000 problem vehicles and not do a voluntary recall.

My wife bought a Toyota Celica GTS back in 1999. Awesome car.

My 1996 GMC pickup has had:
1 burnt up transmission.
Two faulty radiators.

Her Dodge Caravan:
Leaked oil.
Leaks coolant.
Fails to start from time to time.
Has to go in for a recall this week.

That reminds me.  My sister had a Dodge car which she bought almost new.  Didn't matter as it was a piece of shit.  Plenty of things went wrong with it but the one that sticks out is the heater the refused to work.  Don't know how many times she took it in to get it repaired but it never stayed in a working state.

UAW blows chunks.

1992 Chevy S10 Taho 4.3L A/T  Trip odometer failed at 2yr mark. Headlight  b/o by yr 4. Paint peeled off in flakes at 5 year mark.  Muffler shield failed at 40K. Intake gasket failed at 55K. Water pump failed at 60K. Inside door handle broke off.  O2 sensor failed at 7yr. Alternator failed. Transmission failed at 120K. Radiator core at 125K. Electrical prob in dash.

1994 Saturn SL2.  By 6 yr mark had replaced 3 batteries and two alternators due to electrical system flaw. New Catalytic conv.  Many Interior component rattles.  Tape deck failed. transmission failed.

1997 Pontiac Formula WS6: One tire installed backwards at factory.  Tail lamp assembly improperly installed (not flush). "monsoon" stereo system routinely blew speakers. Dash rattles.  Paint faded fast on bumpers and composit hood. Bad intake manifold gasket at 8,000 miles! Windshield leaked water and dealership unable to repair.  Current owner has had to replace brake master cylender, headlamp moter, engine mainseal, and has chronic electrical probs with stereo.

1999 Jeep Cherokee Sport 4x4 4.0L A/T:  2 recalls. Factory tinted windows but they forgot to tint the left rear side window! Power window motor failed at 32 month mark.  Engine developed rough idle/missing at 35K mark.

Quoted: Quoted: You guys that are bashing GM and the other 2 of the big three need to quit living in the 70's and 80's. GM just got a shitload of awards from JD power and associates for quality. Shoprat, from your screen name i assume you are an autoworker. I grew up in Clinton County. My dad and uncles hired on at "Oldsmoble" in the early 70's, which later became BOC (Buick-Olds-Cadillac), but eventually became a Grand Am plant.  I forget what it was called when my dad retired.  We have owned a lot of GM products in the last 10 years.  With the exception of Chevy trucks, everyone of them was crap.  Disposable cars essentially.

Yes, I am. I work at the G6 Assembly plant in Lake Orion, MI.

GM has two big problems. One is shitty designs, the other is the UAW.  The UAW is what enables the workers to down that first beer or joint on first break.  Several beers or shots during lunch.  Then assemble cars intoxicated or under the influence the rest of the shift.

And you don't think they have that problem in the non Union plants? Don't be so Naive. Saying that is like saying guns cause crimes. Every company that has "production" work has problems with that. And don't tell me they drug test before they hire you to stop that. My drug test to get into GM was the most stingent of all. They use hair samples unlike most employers who just do urine. After you pass the drug test, you're free to party again just like any other company. Shit, we have problems with drunk airline pilots, ship captains, ect.

You want people to buy GM stuff?  Tell your coworkers to quit showing up hung over. To quit sneaking out to the parking lot on first break. To quit having lunch at the bar and one man punching everyone else in and out. Tell the guys in the paint shop to quit stealing paint for their weekend bodyshop.  Tell the VFW/American Legion guy that's supposed to be building cars to quit selling his fundraiser poppies, shamrocks, candybars at work and focus on building cars. Quit giving half the work force the day off on Nov 15 every year. Leaving the other half pissed off that even with 20 years on they still dont have enough "senority" to get opening day off.  Instead of laying everyone off for "changeover", send them to training classes to be better auto builders.  Instead of training the shoprats how not to break the car during assembly, design a better car thats not so fragile.

GM ain't like it used to be when your dad hired in. Heck, my lunch break ain't long enough to get to the bar let alone get drunk. The paint in paint shop has to be heat cured, so unless you have the equipment, it's pretty much useless. I have never had anyone come up to me, while the line is running, trying to sell any of the crap you mentioned. As for Nov. 15th, that is now a holiday for us. We took that instead of another holiday.

Yes, there are the few cushy jobs still around, but you have to have 30+ years to get them. They are dwindling very quickly.

You act like you know exactly what goes on inside those doors because your dad worked there. Just because my Uncle is a doctor, doesn't mean I know how to do open heart sugery now does it. I'm telling you, walk a mile in my shoes and you'll understand.

Kris

I buy foreign just to piss on the unions and democrats.

Everyone here is aware that some toyota's are built by the UAW, right?  The tacoma, matrix, and corolla are all built by UAW employees.  And as a side note, 72% or 73% of  toyota's campaign donations were made to john kerry (as per the Federal Election Commission).

Quoted: I buy foreign just to piss on the unions and democrats. Everyone here is aware that some toyota's are built by the UAW, right?  The tacoma, matrix, and corolla are all built by UAW employees.  And as a side note, 72% or 73% of  toyota's campaign donations were made to john kerry (as per the Federal Election Commission).

Ha!! Do you have a link to any of that info? I'd love to see it.

Kris

Ha!! Do you have a link to any of that info? I'd love to see it.

My moron coworker (National Education  Association or teacher's union member) had an offical FEC paper on the subject.  I believe it was a FOIA thing the regional or state rep did.  They were figuring out what companies to boycot and what ones to support  Of all the auto manufacturers, toyota gave the highest percent to kerry ( I enjoy cars so that was an area of interest to me).  What caught me by suprise was that GM and Ford both gave more to Bush then kerry.  Other companies that I remember were Home Depot giving ~90% to Bush.  

The uaw post for the NUMMI plant is 2244.  Some info on the plant and union is available at www.nummi.com/us_roots.html.

I might be in the minority here, but all I want out of my everyday car is just a couple things:

a)  don't cost me a fortune to run, operate, or maintain
b)  be reliable
c)  get the kids from school, to softball practice, get the groceries, etc.
d)  don't give me more shit to worry about.......have enough of that
e)  start when I need you to start

My little 97 Corolla does all that.  

I DON'T NEED OTHER CRAP TO WORRY ABOUT!!!  

vmax84

And in return, I promise to:

a)  not drive the livin' piss out of you
b)  change your oil on a regular basis
c)  do all other maintenance to you that makes you feel better
d)  wash you
e)  wax you

Works out pretty good for both of us.  

vmax84