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Posted: 3/24/2017 4:19:22 PM EDT
[#1]
That sentence was written on Rifleshooter.com and was provided by a poster a few posts above mine.
In order to gain a flatter trajectory from a higher ballistic coefficient and less recoil, you need to give up a few things compared to .308: Shorter Barrel life More money Less availability Impact force/energy I can find 168gr Federal SMKs for $20, whereas Nosler 140gr match 6.5 ammo is $40, or AMax 120gr from Hornady is $25. I don't know which of these is better, but they're clearly more expensive. |
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Posted: 3/24/2017 4:29:49 PM EDT
[#2]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I'm encouraged by Larue building .260 REM barrels and choosing that over 6.5 CM. Is this Beta Max all over again? I did read something online about group sizes opening up after the barrel gets heated. Any confirmation to this? Has it been remedied with the modified/improved version of this rifle? As a buildAR I'm not looking for a 5.56 bolt gun. I understand your points and appreciate your suggestion, but I'd like something bigger. I would most likely use this rifle to go hunting with. That is a real-world use where I would probably use it at a longer distance, so while not the primary purpose of the rifle, it is a benefit. When you say the .308 has been outpaced in the precision shooting world by quite a margin, what specifically do you mean? The .308 is a wonderful medium range cartridge. It runs out of steam around the 275 yard mark and that's about as far as I trust it. The 7mm mag and .300 are better for long range hunting, but you pay dearly in ammo cost, recoil and barrel life. |
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Posted: 3/24/2017 4:31:54 PM EDT
[#3]
Yeah were it me the .260 Rem for sure but I handload.
For me I'd want a tactical Load to have varminting applications and the .260 definitely does. Also with good 140 grn bullets I wouldn't hesitate to take it hunting any game that doesnt eat you. Really a fine round and I think it'll be sticking around. I'd like to see what kind of varminting loads i could develop with it. |
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Posted: 3/24/2017 4:34:46 PM EDT
[#4]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Whoever said 175gr .308 out-performed 6.5CM with any of the 123gr-147gr bullets is simply wrong, and especially with a 142gr SMK. They must be using some other parameter than hit probability, which is determined by wind drift and drop, and I can tell you that a 142gr SMK smokes the 175gr SMK all day long, even from a much shorter barrel. I don't get too distracted with muzzle velocity anymore, not that .308 comes even close to 6.5CM with competitive bullets with high BC. I look at BC first, because that is my biggest indicator of wind deflection. There is simply no way to make a 175gr SMK even from a 26" barrel out-shoot a 142gr SMK from an 18" barrel, because the BC difference is so huge in favor of the 6.5mm 142gr SMK. A 175gr SMK from a 24" barrel has 1 full mil of drift at 400yds. That sucks. Even the little 6.5 Grendel with a 123gr SMK from an 18" barrel has less wind drift than a 24" .308/175 SMK. The .260 Rem or 6.5 Creedmoor with a 142gr SMK don't hit 1 mil of drift until 575yds, and still keep 1 mil at 600yds. It is boring to shoot at plates that are over 1.5 MOA diameter with a .260 Rem or 6.5CM within 600yds, unless you get into awkward positions, the only way to make it challenging. We're not even talking about the 6.5CM Hornady 147gr ELD-M factory load either, which has an insane high BC of .697 G1, .321 G7 for 600-1000yds if using drag model predictions. On a "no wind" day even 800 yards with the 6.5 CM can get boring... 
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Posted: 3/24/2017 4:40:25 PM EDT
[#5]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
That sentence was written on Rifleshooter.com and was provided by a poster a few posts above mine. In order to gain a flatter trajectory from a higher ballistic coefficient and less recoil, you need to give up a few things compared to .308: Shorter Barrel life More money Less availability Impact force/energy I can find 168gr Federal SMKs for $20, whereas Nosler 140gr match 6.5 ammo is $40, or AMax 120gr from Hornady is $25. I don't know which of these is better, but they're clearly more expensive. Use ammoseek when doing comparisons in prices. It shows whether they are brass, shipping costs, price per round, manufacturer, bullet weight, etc. Barrel life, yes, the average shooter who shoots maybe a few hundred rounds in a year won't ever shoot the 6.5 Creedmoor or .308 out. The main shooters that barrel life becomes an issue with are usually PRS competitors, and none of them who actually are competitive shoot .308 unless you stay restricted to the production class, and .223 Rem has been beating .308 for a while there last I checked. So for the shooters who want to dabble in long range or just like to go out even regularly, you would need to shoot 500 rounds a month through your bolt gun. Whether you shoot .308 or 6.5 CM at that point, you're now talking thousands of dollars in ammo, which is why we hand-load. $150 for a barrel set-back isn't going to make a dent in your budget at that point. You can just have the chamber cut a again on the same barrel, especially if you really like how your barrel shoots. Velocity is what drops off with throat erosion, not necessarily accuracy on a high end barrel. As to retained energy on target, .308 gets smoked again, even with much heavier bullets like the 175gr SMK. At 400yds, which is really close range for us and not very challenging, the 142gr SMK 6.5mm from a 22-24" barrel has 1513ft-lbs of energy. The 175gr SMK from a 24" barrel has 1324 ft-lbs. It gets worse from thereon out. At the muzzle, the 175gr SMK has 27ft-lbs more energy, which is gone before we even hit 100yds. These all sound like a bunch of numbers to the layman, but you can clearly hear the impact difference on steel between a .260 Rem or 6.5 Creedmoor and a .308 175gr SMK. Even at 1000yds, the 6.5mm 140gr class hits the steel very hard, much louder than the 175gr SMK for sure. |
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Posted: 3/24/2017 4:41:27 PM EDT
[#6]
Just picked up a .308 rem 700 5R 20" today, timney trigger, magpul stock, Nightforce nxs 2-10x 42, with work done by roberts precision.
It was my boss', and I've shot it out to 600 with ease previously. Like, being my first time shooting long range at night and getting consistent hits on a 12" plate-easy. Putting down groups with Federal GMM 168's, its easily 3/4 moa capable. Probably could squeeze a little more out of it if I handloaded and tuned some rounds. Now if I could get my savage 10 build, in .260 to shoot that well, then we would be talking! However, as it sits, I have shotguns that pattern tighter than that one. No idea what is wrong with it. 
Sorry, kinda rambled on there. |
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Posted: 3/24/2017 4:51:49 PM EDT
[#7]
Quoted:
I'm looking at getting a "modern," "tactical" bolt-action rifle. I really like the Remington 700 Magpul so far, but I'm also looking at the Ruger RPR, and I've heard of the Tikka T3(x) Tactical. One consideration is the round this rifle will be chambered in. .308 is a classic round and I already have .308 ammo, so standardization of calibers would be achieved by going this route. What I don't like about it is how much the bullet drops at long distances, particularly in wind. I hear the .260 is much better in this regard, so I'm considering getting the Remington 700 Magpul in .260 REM instead. I don't have anything else in that caliber, and I likely wouldn't get anything else either, for a while. How does .260 REM compare to .308 as far as bullet drop, max range, and impact energy? What would you guys recommend in this situation? The answer to this common question is: 6.5 Creedmoor in a Tikka. Availability of ammo, accuracy of said ammo, external and terminal ballistics, and (if you ever get there) reloading potential. |
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Posted: 3/24/2017 4:52:04 PM EDT
[#8]
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I'm confused. Is this primarily a hunting gun or something to play mall ninja at the range with? The .308 is a wonderful medium range cartridge. It runs out of steam around the 275 yard mark and that's about as far as I trust it. The 7mm mag and .300 are better for long range hunting, but you pay dearly in ammo cost, recoil and barrel life. |
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Posted: 3/24/2017 4:55:54 PM EDT
[#9]
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I agree. On a "no wind" day even 800 yards with the 6.5 CM can get boring... http://m8.i.pbase.com/o9/72/325172/1/164209958.d1IyT0Gm.RPR_800yd.jpg You just keep getting hits on the steel if you know your wind hold. Click-bang................Ding Click-bang................Ding Click-bang................Ding Click-bang................Ding Click-bang................Ding Click-bang................Ding Click-bang................Ding etc. Mag change The 6.5 Grendel even is boring at 600yds from 16" and 18" barrels with 123gr.  6.5 Grendel Knocking Down 600yd steel, then rapid fire on 500yd |
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Posted: 3/24/2017 4:58:26 PM EDT
[#10]
I don't think ballistics tells the full story on the advantage of the smaller diameter bullet for precision shooting.
Lower recoil makes a difference. Less recoil impulse = less barrel vibration = greater accuracy. And it is also easier to shoot small groups in extended shooting sessions. |
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Posted: 3/24/2017 5:07:25 PM EDT
[#11]
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What are you hunting that can't be humanely killed at over 275yds with a 308? With a 168gr GameKing and a MV of 2650fps it is still going 2000fps and has 1500 ft/lbs of energy at 300yds. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
I'm confused. Is this primarily a hunting gun or something to play mall ninja at the range with? The .308 is a wonderful medium range cartridge. It runs out of steam around the 275 yard mark and that's about as far as I trust it. The 7mm mag and .300 are better for long range hunting, but you pay dearly in ammo cost, recoil and barrel life. The .308 Winchester is still a very capable killer well past that range. If I were shooting it in a hunting role out here in the West (which I wouldn't purposely do with the more capable cartridges out there), I would use the Hornady 178gr ELD-X or a 150gr GMX. The 178gr ELD-X would have plenty of performance out to 460yds if you used 1800fps as an expansion threshold. |
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Posted: 3/24/2017 5:14:29 PM EDT
[#12]
Get a Ruger in 6.5CM
Stay away from Rem700 |
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Posted: 3/24/2017 6:00:24 PM EDT
[#13]
Ballistically, ther isn't a significant difference between the Creedmoor, and the 260 Rem. There is an immense difference between the 308 and the two 6.5 rounds...all in favor of the 6.5's.
260 cases can be made from any of the 308 family of cases (308, 7mm/308, 243), while the recipe for many Creedmoor loadings is put on the box by Hornady. That makes it really easy to duplicate a load if it shoots well in your rifle. Buy either of the 6.5 rounds rather than the 308, you will be glad you did. I am a 260 Remington fan, but realistically there just isn't any significant ballistic difference between the two. If you don't reload, I think there are more match ammo selections for the Creedmoor, but the 260 is getting more selections al the time. |
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Posted: 3/24/2017 6:05:48 PM EDT
[#14]
I have never seen 6.5 CR sold in any store in my life.
Just fyi OP. You either have to get it in bulk online, or reload, or become best friends with a reloader. I would have loved to do 6.5, but its non-existent in most stores. |
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Posted: 3/24/2017 6:16:23 PM EDT
[#15]
If it's a bolt action and you reload then 260 Remington.
If it's a bolt action and you don't reload then 308. |
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Posted: 3/24/2017 7:51:08 PM EDT
[#16]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
You can get Hornady brass-cased, factory new, 129gr SST 6.5 Creedmoor for $16.56/20. Even that bullet has a higher BC than the 175gr SMK, and doubles as a great target and hunting load. Use ammoseek when doing comparisons in prices. It shows whether they are brass, shipping costs, price per round, manufacturer, bullet weight, etc. Barrel life, yes, the average shooter who shoots maybe a few hundred rounds in a year won't ever shoot the 6.5 Creedmoor or .308 out. The main shooters that barrel life becomes an issue with are usually PRS competitors, and none of them who actually are competitive shoot .308 unless you stay restricted to the production class, and .223 Rem has been beating .308 for a while there last I checked. So for the shooters who want to dabble in long range or just like to go out even regularly, you would need to shoot 500 rounds a month through your bolt gun. Whether you shoot .308 or 6.5 CM at that point, you're now talking thousands of dollars in ammo, which is why we hand-load. $150 for a barrel set-back isn't going to make a dent in your budget at that point. You can just have the chamber cut a again on the same barrel, especially if you really like how your barrel shoots. Velocity is what drops off with throat erosion, not necessarily accuracy on a high end barrel. As to retained energy on target, .308 gets smoked again, even with much heavier bullets like the 175gr SMK. At 400yds, which is really close range for us and not very challenging, the 142gr SMK 6.5mm from a 22-24" barrel has 1513ft-lbs of energy. The 175gr SMK from a 24" barrel has 1324 ft-lbs. It gets worse from thereon out. At the muzzle, the 175gr SMK has 27ft-lbs more energy, which is gone before we even hit 100yds. These all sound like a bunch of numbers to the layman, but you can clearly hear the impact difference on steel between a .260 Rem or 6.5 Creedmoor and a .308 175gr SMK. Even at 1000yds, the 6.5mm 140gr class hits the steel very hard, much louder than the 175gr SMK for sure. What can you tell me about reloading costs for 6.5 CM? What would you be spending on brass, powder, primers, and bullets? I've got 168gr SMKs from Federal, and M80 ball. I have nothing in 6.5 CM so I'd have to start new. I do have reloading equipment but nothing for 6.5 CM. What dies do I need, what kind of powder do you recommend? |
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Posted: 3/24/2017 8:01:28 PM EDT
[#17]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
What are you hunting that can't be humanely killed at over 275yds with a 308? With a 168gr GameKing and a MV of 2650fps it is still going 2000fps and has 1500 ft/lbs of energy at 300yds. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
I'm confused. Is this primarily a hunting gun or something to play mall ninja at the range with? The .308 is a wonderful medium range cartridge. It runs out of steam around the 275 yard mark and that's about as far as I trust it. The 7mm mag and .300 are better for long range hunting, but you pay dearly in ammo cost, recoil and barrel life. Why do some people seem to think that deer & hogs require an artillery barrage? 
If OP isn't shooting over 600 yards, there is nothing that .308Win won't do for him. I might add that its stupid-easy to get good results when handloading for it and it will exist as a rifle chambering until we're flying around with rayguns, or extinct. |
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Posted: 3/24/2017 8:09:42 PM EDT
[#18]
Tikka out of those options. Creedmore
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Posted: 3/24/2017 9:47:11 PM EDT
[#19]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I can't even... Why do some people seem to think that deer & hogs require an artillery barrage?
If OP isn't shooting over 600 yards, there is nothing that .308Win won't do for him. I might add that its stupid-easy to get good results when handloading for it and it will exist as a rifle chambering until we're flying around with rayguns, or extinct. 
And compared to the 6.5 CM the .308 is the lobbed artillery....
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Posted: 3/26/2017 8:43:19 PM EDT
[#20]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I have never seen 6.5 CR sold in any store in my life. Just fyi OP. You either have to get it in bulk online, or reload, or become best friends with a reloader. I would have loved to do 6.5, but its non-existent in most stores. |
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Posted: 3/26/2017 8:44:32 PM EDT
[#21]
Build a precision AR-10. You can get it under 1 MOA with match ammo, and it's not a dumb bolt gun.
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Posted: 3/26/2017 9:00:16 PM EDT
[#22]
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Are you planning on shooting animals, or just paper? If just paper, there is practically no reason to go bigger than 6mm. Any barrel life saved will not be worth extra cost in bullets, performance, or recoil. If you do plan to shoot animals, the size and toughness of your quarry will dictate cartridge choice. It will fell a deer (since even .223 can do that), but what about a bear? I'm talking black and maybe brown bears, no grizzly bears. What is the maximum distance this round will be lethal to terrorists? |
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Posted: 3/26/2017 9:20:48 PM EDT
[#23]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Going back to this, what game would you shoot (and not shoot) with 6.5 Creedmoor? It will fell a deer (since even .223 can do that), but what about a bear? I'm talking black and maybe brown bears, no grizzly bears. What is the maximum distance this round will be lethal to terrorists? Terrorists? Never shot them either but I would say easily out to 900 yards. Here's the actual drop chart for my 6.5 CM using a Hornady 140 grain bullet - yes, I use MOA:  Attached File |
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Posted: 3/26/2017 10:57:45 PM EDT
[#24]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Build a precision AR-10. You can get it under 1 MOA with match ammo, and it's not a dumb bolt gun. 
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Posted: 3/26/2017 11:01:47 PM EDT
[#25]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Build a precision AR-10. You can get it under 1 MOA with match ammo, and it's not a dumb bolt gun.
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Posted: 3/26/2017 11:17:09 PM EDT
[#26]
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There is a reason that the top PRS shooters don't use "stupid" semi-autos....
Well below 1/2 MOA can be achieved in a gas gun, and .75 MOA is more of the norm..... With factory Ammo. If I am building a bolt gun, it's going to be in a Norma Mag. |
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Posted: 3/26/2017 11:23:33 PM EDT
[#27]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
there is a reason that the PRS has a gas gun series now.
Well below 1/2 MOA can be achieved in a gas gun, and .75 MOA is more of the norm..... With factory Ammo. If I am building a bolt gun, it's going to be in a Norma Mag. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
There is a reason that the top PRS shooters don't use "stupid" semi-autos....
Well below 1/2 MOA can be achieved in a gas gun, and .75 MOA is more of the norm..... With factory Ammo. If I am building a bolt gun, it's going to be in a Norma Mag.
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Posted: 3/27/2017 9:02:08 AM EDT
[#28]
Eh whatever, handloads FTW.
From my 20" .308 with a 230otm(spin drift off) Mag length load  Attached FileSingle feed load  Attached File |
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Posted: 3/27/2017 9:09:24 AM EDT
[#29]
Not a 6.5/.260 cartridge. I'm tired of hunting down the stuff I need for my rifle.
You have a long way to go anyway, based on your understanding of trajectory and wind deflection. A .308 Win will cost less to shoot. Make that everything about external ballistics. Get your head into a ballistics calculator, Hornady's is on line and easy to use. |
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Posted: 3/27/2017 2:13:05 PM EDT
[#30]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Build a precision AR-10. You can get it under 1 MOA with match ammo, and it's not a dumb bolt gun.
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Posted: 3/27/2017 2:32:48 PM EDT
[#31]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Not a 6.5/.260 cartridge. I'm tired of hunting down the stuff I need for my rifle. You have a long way to go anyway, based on your understanding of trajectory and wind deflection. A .308 Win will cost less to shoot. Make that everything about external ballistics. Get your head into a ballistics calculator, Hornady's is on line and easy to use. Are you having trouble finding factory ammo or components? Is that the only reason? M80 Ball costs maybe $0.50/round, but would anyone recommend that to be shot from a "precision" bolt-rifle? The match stuff costs $1/round or more, from what I see, and 6.5 Creedmoor seems to be in the same ballpark. What about reloading costs? Less powder loaded in 6.5 Creedmoor should mean cheaper to reload, right? |
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Posted: 3/27/2017 2:38:54 PM EDT
[#32]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
@AeroE Are you having trouble finding factory ammo or components? Is that the only reason? M80 Ball costs maybe $0.50/round, but would anyone recommend that to be shot from a "precision" bolt-rifle? The match stuff costs $1/round or more, from what I see, and 6.5 Creedmoor seems to be in the same ballpark. What about reloading costs? Less powder loaded in 6.5 Creedmoor should mean cheaper to reload, right? |
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Posted: 3/27/2017 2:41:04 PM EDT
[#33]
6.5's are hot right now. Lotsa good bullets, lotsa good Loads being spun out, Lotsa performance.
I like a rifle that will prairie dog one day , punch long paper the next, and kill deer and even Elk the day after that. Its a very efficient cartridge. I know Hornady is making some excellent ammo for it but I would reload it. I'd reload the .260 too but I think a newer shooter should get a 6.5 because theres more loads available for it. Both are very close and both are excellent all around rifle rounds for just about anything. |
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Posted: 3/27/2017 3:11:04 PM EDT
[#34]
IMO there's no good reason to buy a .308 for long range shooting (except FT/R) anymore with all the factory support for the 6.5s.
Yes you will have marginally less barrel life, but provided you don't shoot timed strings, and you're not treating it like a semi-auto, you'll probably have upwards of 5k accurate rounds of a 6.5CM bolt gun. 6.5CM is flatter shooting, does better in the wind, has less recoil, and retains more energy at long range. There's really no comparison. |
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Posted: 3/27/2017 3:31:12 PM EDT
[#35]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
6.5's are hot right now. Lotsa good bullets, lotsa good Loads being spun out, Lotsa performance. I like a rifle that will prairie dog one day , punch long paper the next, and kill deer and even Elk the day after that. Its a very efficient cartridge. I know Hornady is making some excellent ammo for it but I would reload it. I'd reload the .260 too but I think a newer shooter should get a 6.5 because theres more loads available for it. Both are very close and both are excellent all around rifle rounds for just about anything. Quote HistoryQuoted:
6.5's are hot right now. Lotsa good bullets, lotsa good Loads being spun out, Lotsa performance. I like a rifle that will prairie dog one day , punch long paper the next, and kill deer and even Elk the day after that. Its a very efficient cartridge. I know Hornady is making some excellent ammo for it but I would reload it. I'd reload the .260 too but I think a newer shooter should get a 6.5 because theres more loads available for it. Both are very close and both are excellent all around rifle rounds for just about anything. Quoted:
IMO there's no good reason to buy a .308 for long range shooting (except FT/R) anymore with all the factory support for the 6.5s. Yes you will have marginally less barrel life, but provided you don't shoot timed strings, and you're not treating it like a semi-auto, you'll probably have upwards of 5k accurate rounds of a 6.5CM bolt gun. 6.5CM is flatter shooting, does better in the wind, has less recoil, and retains more energy at long range. There's really no comparison. |
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Posted: 3/27/2017 3:36:53 PM EDT
[#36]
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I like the sound of that. Is this good enough to use on Black Bear? Thanks. What's FT/R ? |
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Posted: 3/27/2017 3:38:09 PM EDT
[#37]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I like the sound of that. Is this good enough to use on Black Bear? Thanks. What's FT/R ? Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
6.5's are hot right now. Lotsa good bullets, lotsa good Loads being spun out, Lotsa performance. I like a rifle that will prairie dog one day , punch long paper the next, and kill deer and even Elk the day after that. Its a very efficient cartridge. I know Hornady is making some excellent ammo for it but I would reload it. I'd reload the .260 too but I think a newer shooter should get a 6.5 because theres more loads available for it. Both are very close and both are excellent all around rifle rounds for just about anything. Quoted:
IMO there's no good reason to buy a .308 for long range shooting (except FT/R) anymore with all the factory support for the 6.5s. Yes you will have marginally less barrel life, but provided you don't shoot timed strings, and you're not treating it like a semi-auto, you'll probably have upwards of 5k accurate rounds of a 6.5CM bolt gun. 6.5CM is flatter shooting, does better in the wind, has less recoil, and retains more energy at long range. There's really no comparison. |
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Posted: 3/27/2017 3:38:43 PM EDT
[#38]
6.5C
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Posted: 3/27/2017 5:33:36 PM EDT
[#39]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
@AeroE Are you having trouble finding factory ammo or components? Is that the only reason? M80 Ball costs maybe $0.50/round, but would anyone recommend that to be shot from a "precision" bolt-rifle? The match stuff costs $1/round or more, from what I see, and 6.5 Creedmoor seems to be in the same ballpark. What about reloading costs? Less powder loaded in 6.5 Creedmoor should mean cheaper to reload, right? Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Not a 6.5/.260 cartridge. I'm tired of hunting down the stuff I need for my rifle. You have a long way to go anyway, based on your understanding of trajectory and wind deflection. A .308 Win will cost less to shoot. Make that everything about external ballistics. Get your head into a ballistics calculator, Hornady's is on line and easy to use. Are you having trouble finding factory ammo or components? Is that the only reason? M80 Ball costs maybe $0.50/round, but would anyone recommend that to be shot from a "precision" bolt-rifle? The match stuff costs $1/round or more, from what I see, and 6.5 Creedmoor seems to be in the same ballpark. What about reloading costs? Less powder loaded in 6.5 Creedmoor should mean cheaper to reload, right? The difference in powder cost is the wrong place to look to save money, although I have seen that multiple times in the reloading forum. Use the gunpowder that works for the application. That is almost never the fastest gunpowder and the smallest powder charge with two exceptions; nothing else is available or the ammo is for short range plinking. We have experienced gunpowder shortages that drove some people to load what was available, not what they wanted. Compare Hogdon maximum charge weights for 155 grain bullets in .308 Win ( I shoot lots of Sierra #2156 MK's) and 140 grain bullets in 6.5 Creedmoor - .308 Win: 41 to 51 grains, 46 grains average 6.5 Creedmoor: 32.8 to 41.1 grains, 37.0 grains average Let's say a pound of powder is $25. 1 pound is 7000 grains, so the cost is $0.003571 per grain. (I've never done that calculation before!) The difference in cost is ~ (46-37)0.003571 = 3.2 cents per round. Loaded ammunition for 6.5 Creedmoor is readily available, but the prices are impressive, ranging from about $28 to $40 per 20 rounds. There is some lower cost ammunition in the market that do not use premium bullets which does me no good. On the other hand, I bought 100 cases and 100 bullets today for $1.56 per round before tax because I will be loading a new rifle for shooting to 1200 yards. Start with a load manual to get a feel for the gunpowder charge weights, bullet weights, and speeds (low, medium, and not likely) that are possible. Then use that information with a ballistics program to get a feel for the trajectory and wind deflection at various ranges according to the distance you plan to shoot. Send an email address and I will send you a spreadsheet with a summary of BC's, likely speeds, trajectories, and speed of sound variation with temperature. |
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Posted: 3/27/2017 7:02:39 PM EDT
[#40]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
6.5's are hot right now. Lotsa good bullets, lotsa good Loads being spun out, Lotsa performance. I like a rifle that will prairie dog one day , punch long paper the next, and kill deer and even Elk the day after that. Its a very efficient cartridge. I know Hornady is making some excellent ammo for it but I would reload it. I'd reload the .260 too but I think a newer shooter should get a 6.5 because theres more loads available for it. Both are very close and both are excellent all around rifle rounds for just about anything. It has just taken America the past 15 years to finally start to realize that. |
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Posted: 3/27/2017 7:18:57 PM EDT
[#41]
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Whoa, I was under the impression .308 had more ft-lbs of energy than the 6.5 CM. You really make it seem like there is no benefit to .308 overy 6.5 CM. Where are you finding those Hornady SSTs for that cheap? What can you tell me about reloading costs for 6.5 CM? What would you be spending on brass, powder, primers, and bullets? I've got 168gr SMKs from Federal, and M80 ball. I have nothing in 6.5 CM so I'd have to start new. I do have reloading equipment but nothing for 6.5 CM. What dies do I need, what kind of powder do you recommend? Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
You can get Hornady brass-cased, factory new, 129gr SST 6.5 Creedmoor for $16.56/20. Even that bullet has a higher BC than the 175gr SMK, and doubles as a great target and hunting load. Use ammoseek when doing comparisons in prices. It shows whether they are brass, shipping costs, price per round, manufacturer, bullet weight, etc. Barrel life, yes, the average shooter who shoots maybe a few hundred rounds in a year won't ever shoot the 6.5 Creedmoor or .308 out. The main shooters that barrel life becomes an issue with are usually PRS competitors, and none of them who actually are competitive shoot .308 unless you stay restricted to the production class, and .223 Rem has been beating .308 for a while there last I checked. So for the shooters who want to dabble in long range or just like to go out even regularly, you would need to shoot 500 rounds a month through your bolt gun. Whether you shoot .308 or 6.5 CM at that point, you're now talking thousands of dollars in ammo, which is why we hand-load. $150 for a barrel set-back isn't going to make a dent in your budget at that point. You can just have the chamber cut a again on the same barrel, especially if you really like how your barrel shoots. Velocity is what drops off with throat erosion, not necessarily accuracy on a high end barrel. As to retained energy on target, .308 gets smoked again, even with much heavier bullets like the 175gr SMK. At 400yds, which is really close range for us and not very challenging, the 142gr SMK 6.5mm from a 22-24" barrel has 1513ft-lbs of energy. The 175gr SMK from a 24" barrel has 1324 ft-lbs. It gets worse from thereon out. At the muzzle, the 175gr SMK has 27ft-lbs more energy, which is gone before we even hit 100yds. These all sound like a bunch of numbers to the layman, but you can clearly hear the impact difference on steel between a .260 Rem or 6.5 Creedmoor and a .308 175gr SMK. Even at 1000yds, the 6.5mm 140gr class hits the steel very hard, much louder than the 175gr SMK for sure. What can you tell me about reloading costs for 6.5 CM? What would you be spending on brass, powder, primers, and bullets? I've got 168gr SMKs from Federal, and M80 ball. I have nothing in 6.5 CM so I'd have to start new. I do have reloading equipment but nothing for 6.5 CM. What dies do I need, what kind of powder do you recommend? Once you hit around 700yds with a 178gr ELD even in the .30-06, the 143gr ELD-X in the .260 Rem or 6.5 Creedmoor has exceeded it for retained energy, and drop and drift are way less from the get go. For those that thing 700yds is really far, it's relative. I know for me, 700yds on my 12" popper steel targets is boring with the little 6.5 Grendel even. It's very boring with .260 Rem and 6.5 Creedmoor as well. By using efficient BCs in lesser recoiling cartridges, you can get more performance on-target, with more hit probability on-target, with more trigger time, and less concerns about recoil fatigue. |
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Posted: 3/27/2017 7:26:37 PM EDT
[#42]
I shoot and talk with several PRS shooters. (Look up the PRS if you don't know what that is... they are THE long range precision shooting competition)
They all recommend a person start with .308. Super cheap ammo and very easy to hand load for. There's literally no advantage to the 6.5 Creedmoor over a 308 for a new shooter. 6.5 Creedmoor has less than 1/2 of a .308's barrel life and the extended range it offers is wasted on a new shooter. Be realistic... do you think you'll be shooting past even 500-800 yards regularly? Shooting .308 also forces you to learn to read wind well. Just be honest with yourself. Get one in .308, shoot like you mean it until you burn the barrel out. Then rebarrel in 6.5 Creedmoor and voila. Best bang for your buck. I was stupid and went with a 6.5Creedmoor and 338 Lapua for my first modern bolt action. They never get shot now as I'm still using my .308 instead. |
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Posted: 3/27/2017 7:29:42 PM EDT
[#43]
600 yds and under, want accuracy and long barrel life?
6.5 grendel bolt gun is what you seek. |
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Posted: 3/27/2017 9:10:13 PM EDT
[#44]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I shoot and talk with several PRS shooters. (Look up the PRS if you don't know what that is... they are THE long range precision shooting competition) They all recommend a person start with .308. Super cheap ammo and very easy to hand load for. There's literally no advantage to the 6.5 Creedmoor over a 308 for a new shooter. 6.5 Creedmoor has less than 1/2 of a .308's barrel life and the extended range it offers is wasted on a new shooter. Be realistic... do you think you'll be shooting past even 500-800 yards regularly? Shooting .308 also forces you to learn to read wind well. Just be honest with yourself. Get one in .308, shoot like you mean it until you burn the barrel out. Then rebarrel in 6.5 Creedmoor and voila. Best bang for your buck. I was stupid and went with a 6.5Creedmoor and 338 Lapua for my first modern bolt action. They never get shot now as I'm still using my .308 instead. |
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Posted: 3/27/2017 9:12:19 PM EDT
[#45]
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6.5mm has been hot since the late 1800s. It has just taken America the past 15 years to finally start to realize that. |
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Posted: 3/27/2017 9:18:09 PM EDT
[#46]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
600 yds and under, want accuracy and long barrel life? 6.5 grendel bolt gun is what you seek. From a 20-22" bolt gun, it will bite the heels of the 6.5 Creedmoor. You can shoot 129gr/130gr to 2650fps from a 22" easily. That's 110yds difference between my 22" .260 Rem with a 130gr going 2820fps at the muzzle. For those that are telling people to start long range shooting with a .308, I used to say the same thing before we had the option of 6.5 Grendel. I now strongly recommend getting a 6.5 Grendel upper for your AR15, or a bolt gun. You will be able to learn the wind much faster than you ever could with .308 for several reasons, especially if you go the AR15 route instead. 1. You will get way more trigger time for less money. 2. You will be able to watch your round fly in the wind much easier, and watch the splash on target with little effort. 3. You will be able to follow-up with another shot much father in the conditions, rather than taking away your focus and cycling the action while the wind changes. |
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Posted: 3/27/2017 9:19:11 PM EDT
[#47]
Creedmoor is a meme round for a meme distance. Who are you sniping? 308 will do it all.
As will dial telephones, standard transmissions, and 3 speed bicycles. |
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Posted: 3/27/2017 9:22:35 PM EDT
[#48]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Creedmoor is a meme round for a meme distance. Who are you sniping? 308 will do it all. As will dial telephones, standard transmissions, and 3 speed bicycles. Just like touch tone telephones, automatic transmissions, and 18 speed bicycles!
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Posted: 3/27/2017 9:41:03 PM EDT
[#49]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
308 might do it, but the 6.5 Creedmoor does it better. Just like touch tone telephones, automatic transmissions, and 18 speed bicycles! Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Creedmoor is a meme round for a meme distance. Who are you sniping? 308 will do it all. As will dial telephones, standard transmissions, and 3 speed bicycles. Just like touch tone telephones, automatic transmissions, and 18 speed bicycles! |
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Posted: 3/27/2017 10:06:35 PM EDT
[#50]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I shoot and talk with several PRS shooters. (Look up the PRS if you don't know what that is... they are THE long range precision shooting competition) They all recommend a person start with .308. Super cheap ammo and very easy to hand load for. There's literally no advantage to the 6.5 Creedmoor over a 308 for a new shooter. 6.5 Creedmoor has less than 1/2 of a .308's barrel life and the extended range it offers is wasted on a new shooter. Be realistic... do you think you'll be shooting past even 500-800 yards regularly? Shooting .308 also forces you to learn to read wind well. Just be honest with yourself. Get one in .308, shoot like you mean it until you burn the barrel out. Then rebarrel in 6.5 Creedmoor and voila. Best bang for your buck. I was stupid and went with a 6.5Creedmoor and 338 Lapua for my first modern bolt action. They never get shot now as I'm still using my .308 instead. No, I will not. Although it is nice to have the option. Do I really need to learn to read the wind if I have a 6.5 CM where the wind will not play as big a role as it would in .308? If I already had a .308 precision setup in SA, would you still recommend I get the bolt-action Bergara HMR in .308, too? |
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