Fighting With a Shotgun - Long Write-Up & Lots of Pics - Page 2

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[ARCHIVED THREAD] - Fighting With a Shotgun - Long Write-Up & Lots of Pics (Page 2 of 7)

Posted: 11/17/2008 11:46:24 AM EDT

[#1]

Awesome thread as always....Thanks O_P

Posted: 11/17/2008 11:47:33 AM EDT

[#2]

I like the shotgun for home defense. No, not because of the sound of the slide or "you don't even have to aim", but I figure at close range on terrain you know intimately you have a much higher chance than usual of getting a hit with your first shot, and I suspect that a 12ga firing buckshot into an (unarmored) person has one hell of a one shot stop percentage. Also, target acquisition is damn fast, looking down the barrel and placing the BB front sight always felt very natural and easy for me.

870 pump with Surefire, low recoil 00 in the pipe, 00, 00, slug, 00, slug. 2 00's and 3 slugs on the buttstock. Plus a 25rd bandolier with pistol and extra pistol mags onboard that I can throw over a shoulder when I don't have time to dress and kit up.

In addition to range time I practice occasionally at home with snap caps to make sure I don't short stroke. Never had a problem with that, though.

Posted: 11/17/2008 11:49:00 AM EDT

[#3]

great write up O.P.

Thanks

Posted: 11/17/2008 11:50:54 AM EDT

[#4]

Great write-up. Pistol & Carbine Next? Or Link?

Posted: 11/17/2008 11:51:25 AM EDT

[#5]

Quoted:
I would offer this......

I know you say "not to scan with your muzzle" but sometimes you may "wish you brought your gun with you".

If you're looking around corners or in dark places..."bring your gun".

I always like the posts by Old Painless. This is my only disagreement in philosophy & training. My training has been that when you scan the gun goes with you.

Posted: 11/17/2008 11:52:11 AM EDT

[#6]

Quoted:
Did I miss it? were is your light?

Yep, you missed it.

"We will not cover low-light scenarios in this lesson, but be prepared and have a light."

Posted: 11/17/2008 11:54:05 AM EDT

[#7]

What are Clint's recommendations for ready position, mounting and loading to an empty chamber?

Posted: 11/17/2008 11:54:37 AM EDT

[#8]

Quoted:

awesome!

O_P you da man!

+1

Thanks!

Posted: 11/17/2008 11:54:54 AM EDT

[#9]

Quoted:

Quoted:
I would offer this......

I know you say "not to scan with your muzzle" but sometimes you may "wish you brought your gun with you".

If you're looking around corners or in dark places..."bring your gun".

I always like the posts by Old Painless. This is my only disagreement in philosophy & training. My training has been that when you scan the gun goes with you.

Don't misunderstand me on this one.

I am talking about standing in one place and scanning for other bad guys. I keep the muzzle on him, as he is the "most likely" threat.

If I leave that spot, or go around a corner, the shotgun preceeds me.

Posted: 11/17/2008 11:55:34 AM EDT

[#10]

Thanks for writing that. I liked it so much I am saving it all in a PDF.

Posted: 11/17/2008 11:56:13 AM EDT

[#11]

Man, I'd love to be O_P's camera guy. Then again, I'd love to be his neighbor.

Speaking of that, where in Texas do you live, O_P?

Posted: 11/17/2008 11:56:46 AM EDT

[#12]

low recoil 00 in the pipe, 00, 00, slug, 00, slug. 2 00's and 3 slugs on the buttstock...

Don't mix ammo in the magazine, use the sidesaddle or stock shell carrier for 'specialty' loads if you need to carry different types of ammo

Nice job as always, O_P

Posted: 11/17/2008 11:57:08 AM EDT

[#13]

Awesome thread, and a reminder of why I prefer to just use an AR.

Posted: 11/17/2008 11:58:38 AM EDT

[#14]

Quoted:
Hey O_P,

Is Clint (or any of the other instructors you keep in touch with) developing doctrine for the mag-fed Saigas? Everybody I've met just runs them as rifles, but... they're not rifles.

They're neat guns that don't fit the traditional tube-fed practices. I'm especially curious if anybody's come up with a way to do the Switch-to-Slug drill with a mag-fed system.

Clint's philosophy is basically, "I will teach you to run the gun you use."

If you bring a Saiga, he will teach you how to run it. No one had one in my class, but he teaches them if they show up.

I am not a big fan of the "switch to slug" drill for homeowners protecting their homes. Most people will be too excited to do something as complicated as switching to slugs, and Dutch loading is foolish.

Inside the home, buckshot will almost always be the best load. No need to add very complicated drills to that.

Posted: 11/17/2008 11:59:01 AM EDT

[#15]

Always a good write up OP. I'm from another school of thought on the sling inside a house,etc. I see it possibly getting caught on something, so I don't use one.

Posted: 11/17/2008 11:59:41 AM EDT

[#16]

Quoted:
Man, I'd love to be O_P's camera guy. Then again, I'd love to be his neighbor.

Speaking of that, where in Texas do you live, O_P?

Near Beaumont.

We shot today at the Orange County Gun Club.

Posted: 11/17/2008 12:02:49 PM EDT

[#17]

Quoted:

Quoted:
I would offer this......

I know you say "not to scan with your muzzle" but sometimes you may "wish you brought your gun with you".

If you're looking around corners or in dark places..."bring your gun".

I always like the posts by Old Painless. This is my only disagreement in philosophy & training. My training has been that when you scan the gun goes with you.

Scanning with your muzzle can be dangerous. If you just shot someone or perceive a threat then your adrenaline is pumping then you increase the likelihood of shooting someone you don't intend to. My training has been to scan with your eyes and then bring your weapon to bear when you identify a threat. Scanning with your muzzle also increases the likelihood of over sweeping your target.

If you're using a weapon light and fighting in the dark then you have to move the muzzle with your scan to get the benefit of the light for target identification, but I have always been taught to move your eyes to your target before your gun.

Posted: 11/17/2008 12:03:14 PM EDT

[#18]

thanks for taking your time to do this.

the advice is greatly appreciated

Posted: 11/17/2008 12:03:58 PM EDT

[#19]

In a word, WOW...

O.P. This is one helluva great tactical shotgun "summary" training.

Fantastic post!!!

...for those working with a new weapon, and/or a new sling, run
empty chamber (full mag) until you are very comfortable with your "new rig".

... you don't want to flirt with tactical foot removal.

Those pics are straight up, hard core shotgun fight simulation photos O.P. ... good stuff.

Awesome, awesome post

Posted: 11/17/2008 12:04:12 PM EDT

[#20]

Quoted:low recoil 00 in the pipe, 00, 00, slug, 00, slug. 2 00's and 3 slugs on the buttstock...

Don't mix ammo in the magazine, use the sidesaddle or stock shell carrier for 'specialty' loads if you need to carry different types of ammo

Nice job as always, O_P

I would like to stress what was said here.

I do not believe in "Dutch loading" a shotgun. In a firefight, you will never remember what is up next, and it may be important.

Load buckshot and forget Dutch loading.

I also recommend buckshot in the shell carrier for home defense.

There may be a place for a variety of different loads for police or military personnel, but for home defenders, just use buckshot.

It will be complicated enough during the firefight as it is. No need to add complications.

Posted: 11/17/2008 12:06:16 PM EDT

[#21]

That's outstanding, O_P!

I would highly recommend 10-8 Consulting's Rob Haught's shotgun course to anyone who spends much time in the vicinity of a shotgun. Rob teaches a very effective manner of recoil management (push-pull) and I have never seen anyone wield a pump gun as fast as effectively.

I have no connection to Rob or 10-8 other than being a very satisfied customer for some of their training.

http://www.10-8consulting.com/courses.php
http://www.10-8forums.com/ubbthreads/showflat.php?Cat=0&Number=72263&an=0&page=0&gonew=1#UNREAD

Posted: 11/17/2008 12:06:51 PM EDT

[#22]

Quoted:
Always a good write up OP. I'm from another school of thought on the sling inside a house,etc. I see it possibly getting caught on something, so I don't use one.

No problem.

What do you do if you need to use two hands for something?

(And please don't say, 'Lay down the shotgun.'")

Posted: 11/17/2008 12:07:08 PM EDT

[#23]

Birdshot is only for practice or shooting little birds.

This should be tacked to the top of the shotgun forum. This is some serious gospel here, folks.

Now, I was trained to load capacity-1 so that I could put a slug in the tube and transition to slug quicker.

Posted: 11/17/2008 12:09:46 PM EDT

[#24]

Very well done, OP. I know quite a few people who will be receiving printed copies of this writeup.

Thanks!
-Parke1

Posted: 11/17/2008 12:10:31 PM EDT

[#25]

Quoted:
Great thread O_P

I've taken a Tactical Shotgun class earlier this year and going into it, I did not have high expectations. After the 8 hour class, I walked away with a new attitude towards the shotty and new skills for my tactical toolbox

Like you, I was a "long time" shotgun user and had been hunting birds with a shotgun for many yaers. i had also carried a shotgun as a police officer and thought I knew a lot about them.

I went to Thunder Ranch and was simply amazed at how much new stuff I learned.

I was also amazed at how much I "knew" that was wrong.

Everyone can benefit from professional training.

Posted: 11/17/2008 12:10:49 PM EDT

[#26]

Simply awesome post! Thank you VERY much!

Posted: 11/17/2008 12:11:35 PM EDT

[#27]

Quoted:
I don't know when the safety comes into play, but if you don't practice a lot with a shotgun it's easy to forget the safety is on when it comes time to put up or shut-up.

Folks have been known to miss a nice deer or two because they shouldered the weapon and it wouldn't fire (forgot the safety).

Very good point. And the answer, as is so often the case, is "practice, practice, practice."

Posted: 11/17/2008 12:12:22 PM EDT

[#28]

Great thread!

I just bought an 870 Express over the weekend (my first 'defensive' shotgun) and I realized quickly that I don't really know how to use it when push comes to shove. Even though I have plenty of shotgunning experience, using one for defense is foreign to me.

I started to think about things illustrated in this thread, like dealing with heavy recoil for follow-ups, manipulations in the dark and most importantly reloading under duress. I'll be sticking to my AR until I can build confidence in working the shotgun quickly and efficiently. I'll have to take some courses as well.

Thanks O_P!

Posted: 11/17/2008 12:14:25 PM EDT

[#29]

Quoted:
Scanning with your muzzle can be dangerous. If you just shot someone or perceive a threat then your adrenaline is pumping then you increase the likelihood of shooting someone you don't intend to. My training has been to scan with your eyes and then bring your weapon to bear when you identify a threat. Scanning with your muzzle also increases the likelihood of over sweeping your target.

If you're using a weapon light and fighting in the dark then you have to move the muzzle with your scan to get the benefit of the light for target identification, but I have always been taught to move your eyes to your target before your gun.

This comes down to either scan w/ the muzzle so you can engage as rapidly as possible, or scan w/ your head & plan on moving the muzzle if you find a target. My training and philosophy has been the muzzle goes where your look. If things have reached the point where I am engaging multiple targets w/ a shotgun I'll take the quicker engagement time by keeping the muzzle where I look. Not engaging a no shoot is a training issue.

Posted: 11/17/2008 12:15:36 PM EDT

[#30]

Quoted:
What are Clint's recommendations for ready position, mounting and loading to an empty chamber?

Clint teaches to use what works best with your weapon system.

With a pump and an empty chamber, he recommends opening the chamber and throwing a shell into the breech and slamming the pump forward. He likes gross motor skills.

He teaches a "low ready" position for being ready for a threat. Once the threat is identified, it only takes raising the shotgun barrel a small amount to engage.

Posted: 11/17/2008 12:16:47 PM EDT

[#31]

Quoted:

Quoted:
Always a good write up OP. I'm from another school of thought on the sling inside a house,etc. I see it possibly getting caught on something, so I don't use one.

No problem.

What do you do if you need to use two hands for something?

(And please don't say, 'Lay down the shotgun.'")

Which is more likely? Having to lay the shotgun down in a shooting situation, or getting the sling caught on a doorknob? Which is more likely to get you killed? I'm currently of the opinion that slings are good, but indoors I understand the philosophy of one of the local instructors. He refers to them as "snakes." They can get you in a lot of trouble.

Posted: 11/17/2008 12:18:16 PM EDT

[#32]

I don't care for shotguns, except for shooting at little woodland creatures, but I did some shotgun training and classes last year.

-I swear that when I posted here a million times that I had never short stroked a shotgun I was not lying. However someone caught me having a malfunction on tape and Striker said right off "short stroke" when he saw it.

-SP10's Benelli makes you want to throw a mossberg 590 into the cornfield and leave it there. Yes there is probably some 80 year old clay shooter at your range that can work a pump like a semi, but even then he's never done it under real pressure or while moving.

-They run out of ammo fast and it takes a lot of practice to stay on top of reloading constantly, especially while moving

-Having enough ammo is a real issue, the shells on the shotgun run out pretty quickly.

-They are kind of fun and although the Benelli is a better fighting gun the 590 is fun in a sort of racing lawn mower kind of way

Posted: 11/17/2008 12:18:55 PM EDT

[#33]

Quoted:

Which is more likely? Having to lay the shotgun down in a shooting situation, or getting the sling caught on a doorknob? Which is more likely to get you killed? I'm currently of the opinion that slings are good, but indoors I understand the philosophy of one of the local instructors. He refers to them as "snakes." They can get you in a lot of trouble.

Make no mistake, I am showing what I have been taught and believe works well for me.

You are welcome to disagree. Do as seems best to you.

Posted: 11/17/2008 12:22:52 PM EDT

[#34]

Quoted:

Quoted:
Always a good write up OP. I'm from another school of thought on the sling inside a house,etc. I see it possibly getting caught on something, so I don't use one.

No problem.

What do you do if you need to use two hands for something?

(And please don't say, 'Lay down the shotgun.'")

Fair question. Most everything is a compromise, I just see the trade off in my favor. I envision it's more likely that I get a sling hung up on something than needing two hands. At any rate, I don't want to be thinking about it if I'm with moving around inside the house looking for an intruder.

Posted: 11/17/2008 12:23:14 PM EDT

[#35]

Quoted:

Quoted:

Which is more likely? Having to lay the shotgun down in a shooting situation, or getting the sling caught on a doorknob? Which is more likely to get you killed? I'm currently of the opinion that slings are good, but indoors I understand the philosophy of one of the local instructors. He refers to them as "snakes." They can get you in a lot of trouble.

Make no mistake, I am showing what I have been taught and believe works well for me.

You are welcome to disagree. Do as seems best to you.

I think we are going to have disagreements on anything like this. I'm happy to debate it if everyone can do it in a civil manner. In this case I understand what is being said, and mostly agree with it. I just disagree on a couple of the fine points. It's nothing personal, keep posting your articles. They are well worth reading.

Posted: 11/17/2008 12:32:04 PM EDT

[#36]

Quoted:
-I swear that when I posted here a million times that I had never short stroked a shotgun I was not lying. However someone caught me having a malfunction on tape and Striker said right off "short stroke" when he saw it.

It's a wonder you can work a pump at all with those stubby little wings.

Posted: 11/17/2008 12:37:24 PM EDT

[#37]

This might be the best thread ever posted here.

Posted: 11/17/2008 12:40:33 PM EDT

[#38]

Quoted:

low recoil 00 in the pipe, 00, 00, slug, 00, slug. 2 00's and 3 slugs on the buttstock...

Don't mix ammo in the magazine, use the sidesaddle or stock shell carrier for 'specialty' loads if you need to carry different types of ammo

Nice job as always, O_P

+1 on the loads. All 00 Buck in the Mag and Chamber, 3 Rifled Slugs up and 3 00 Buck Down on the side saddle. Very effective setup.

Posted: 11/17/2008 12:41:28 PM EDT

[#39]

Hi O.P.! got the TR vid series and really enjoy them. Clint advocates tacking up the sling slack with the non-firing hand. if running a pump I could see how one ( me

) could short stroke if grabbed the sling too far forward but for now I don't run a sling anyways. advise? (practice x infinity) on loads I keep all buck in the mag, with all slug in the saddle.

Posted: 11/17/2008 12:43:47 PM EDT

[#40]

Your usual excellence continues!

Posted: 11/17/2008 12:43:57 PM EDT

[#41]

OP you are the coolest guy ever. Babe Ruth, the Rolling Stones and Old Painless.

I once spent and entire sick day flipping through the Box O Truth. Nothing like degreasing some milsurps and shooting through studs and drywall.

Posted: 11/17/2008 12:45:47 PM EDT

[#42]

O_P, you ARE the man.

Thank you for taking the time to share your knowledge with us.

-Sal

Posted: 11/17/2008 12:53:23 PM EDT

[#43]

good thread O_P! just like your thunder ranch shotgun class thread, this one made me grab my benelli m2 and practice my reloads from the sidesaddle

Quoted:
snip

the 590 is fun in a sort of racing lawn mower kind of way

Posted: 11/17/2008 12:58:44 PM EDT

[#44]

Great post O_P, I'm gonna send this to my buddy who was talking about wanting a shotgun.

Posted: 11/17/2008 12:59:39 PM EDT

[#45]

This may've been one of your greatest efforts, OP!

Tman took some really excellent photos, too....this should be in a HOF-type forum for members to constantly refer to.

HH