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Posted: 1/13/2006 6:56:51 AM EDT
[#1]
NAW, they jus burnt a bunch of kids to death, but they would never do THAT 
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Posted: 1/13/2006 6:59:09 AM EDT
[#2]
Jesus kerist, no fucking doubt. 
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Posted: 1/13/2006 7:04:20 AM EDT
[#3]
ATF Wrecks Tulsa Home
On December 16, 1991, a joint task force of some sixty ATF agents and local law enforcement personnel, accompanied by two television crews, broke into the Tulsa, Oklahoma, home of John Lawmaster. Acting on a tip that Lawmaster had illegally converted a semi-automatic to full automatic, the ATF worked with Lawmaster's ex-wife to lure Lawmaster away from his home before the raid. With Lawmaster absent, ATF knocked down his front door with a battering ram. While some agents stood guard with weapons drawn, other agents broke open his gun safe, scattered his personal papers, spilled boxes of ammunition onto the floor, and broke into a small, locked box that contained precious coins. To look through some ceiling tiles, one agent stood on a table, breaking the table in the process. Neighbors who asked what ATF was doing were threatened with arrest. The ATF left doors, tables, and safes broken and guns and ammunition unsecured on the floor, and a note: "Nothing found -- ATF." No charges were filed. The affadavit supporting the search warrant was sealed by the US Attorney's office. When Lawmaster returned, utility company representatives arrived, and told him that they had been told to shut off all his utilities. Found this at www.boogieonline.com/revolution/firearms/enforce/note.html Smalls |
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Posted: 1/13/2006 7:05:29 AM EDT
[#4]
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Posted: 1/13/2006 7:07:30 AM EDT
[#5]
What idiocy! You want a short list of ATF 'flubs' that would indicate that they are the ass-clowns of 'peace officers'? No, on second thought, go look it up yourself! No need to waste bandwidth attempting to educate the truly clueless about recent history! Eric The(Snide)Hun 
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Posted: 1/13/2006 7:07:50 AM EDT
[#6]
Does he have an recourse? can he sue the %$*& for this? |
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Posted: 1/13/2006 7:08:11 AM EDT
[#7]
Obviously with the passage of 14 years there must have been more information that has come out so that all you tin foil types can calm down. You are telling me the LAST information on this incident dates back to the time it happened?
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Posted: 1/13/2006 7:14:01 AM EDT
[#8]
Tin foil is believing Bush planned 9/11. Tin foil is believing that the holocaust did not happen. It is not tin foil to call a rogue agency out on the carpet to answer for their careless disregard for civil rights, personal property, and the safety of those they "investigate"   
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Posted: 1/13/2006 7:22:04 AM EDT
[#9]
What is cirled in the pics?
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Posted: 1/13/2006 7:23:32 AM EDT
[#10]
www.healylaw.com/cases/atf_lawm.htm
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Posted: 1/13/2006 7:26:25 AM EDT
[#11]
John Lawmaster did indeed sue the ATF, its agents, and others for the damages done to his property. The case was dismissed by the Federal Court in Tulsa, and appealed by Lawmaster to the US Tenth Circuit Court of Appeals, where the dismissal was overturned, in part, with orders to return it to the District Court for trial on the issues raised by Lawmaster. The Tenth Circuit noted in its opinion in Footnote 6... "On August 13, 1997, the Defendants-Appellees filed documents with this court suggesting Mr. Lawmaster is now deceased and requesting us to suspend appellate proceedings pursuant to Fed. R. App. P. 43(a). As we have received no confirmation of death or request to substitute parties pursuant to Fed. R. App. P. 43(a), and as the rule imposes no deadline on a request to substitute parties, we have determined to proceed in filing this opinion." The Case Number at the US District Court is D.C. No. 93-C-115-H, the Case Number at the Tenth Circuit is No. 96-5028, and this case was cited at 125 F.3d 1341 (10th Cir. 1997) See how much info you can obtain when you really try? Read the Tenth Circuit's Opinion at http://www.healylaw.com/cases/atf_lawm.htm Eric The(ScholarAndAGentleman!)Hun
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Posted: 1/13/2006 7:27:39 AM EDT
[#12]
Branch-davidians who died on April 19th. The gents in the pic are standing in what used to be the B-D "compound" |
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Posted: 1/13/2006 7:28:28 AM EDT
[#13]
Its tin foil to say that this was anything other than a routine warrant execution, which are done day in and day out across this country thousands of times a day. Anyone whose property is searched is going to make themselves out to be the victim if they are so inclined to do so. |
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Posted: 1/13/2006 7:30:02 AM EDT
[#14]
The burned corpse of Raymond Freisen, age 76 years old....  Ghoulish, eh? Not the corpse itself, but the souls of those FBI agents having their pics taken with this elderly fellow centered in the background! Eric The(ShakenAndStirred)Hun
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Posted: 1/13/2006 7:31:05 AM EDT
[#15]
is that happens when you order that auto sear from Shotgun News
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Posted: 1/13/2006 7:32:04 AM EDT
[#16]
Check towards the bottom of this page. Warning, a bit graphic! Ah, beat by 2 minutes. |
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Posted: 1/13/2006 7:32:28 AM EDT
[#17]
That's what I thought it was. |
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Posted: 1/13/2006 7:32:43 AM EDT
[#18]
I'm speechless. 
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Posted: 1/13/2006 7:33:06 AM EDT
[#19]
Quoted:
That is even more ghoulish than those FBI agents 'trophy shots'! Wow, thank God you don't live in our jurisdiction! We have enough 'peace officer wienies' in Texas without another one. Eric The(EnoughIsEnough)Hun
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Posted: 1/13/2006 7:35:18 AM EDT
[#20]
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Posted: 1/13/2006 7:36:51 AM EDT
[#21]
Having one's home searched is not pleasant, but I suppose can't be helped. Having one's home trashed is a big no no! Especially when there was no illegal activity going on! |
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Posted: 1/13/2006 7:37:27 AM EDT
[#22]
Wow... I'm speechless.
That has got to be the biggest pile of bullshit I've read on this board...but it doesn't seem unrealistic, sadly. |
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Posted: 1/13/2006 7:40:16 AM EDT
[#23]
Ex-wife narced him out.
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Posted: 1/13/2006 7:40:40 AM EDT
[#24]
So it's routine to leave weapons and houses unsecured, ammo lying about where they can be stolen? If so I sure hope any victims shot by criminals using them are the same LEO/SWAT/ATF personal that left them unsecured in the first place. You can search a house without totally destroying it in the process, you can secure it after you are done, or leave someone to keep it secured til the owner comes home and you can frikkin not tell the damn TV reporter shitheads who will tell everyone in the world that there are guns here. If there is one thing I have learned, anytime a govt agency wants to seal records of a fuckup without there being a national security need, it is because they are in CYA mode and probably broke the law to boot. |
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Posted: 1/13/2006 7:42:01 AM EDT
[#25]
The way they bulldoze thru people lives with impunity.. esp after they find out there was no wrong doing. edit: ]cuss[ tag don't worky.   |
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Posted: 1/13/2006 7:44:14 AM EDT
[#26]
I meant her for the false report? the %$*& started with a C. 
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Posted: 1/13/2006 7:47:05 AM EDT
[#27]
Lawmaster would have to have some evidence that the 'confidential informant' was his ex-wife, in order to sue her. Do you think that the ATF is going to say, 'Yeah, we relied on Lawmaster's ex-wife to establish the probable cause for the search warrant'? Nope. Eric The(AndTheyLikelyNeverMentioneditToTheMagistrate,Either)Hun
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Posted: 1/13/2006 7:48:37 AM EDT
[#28]
So true. 
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Posted: 1/13/2006 7:49:32 AM EDT
[#29]
Oh, I bet that's exactly when the fun got started. Probably went all picky-pokey for the first twenty minutes or so. Till they busted the safe open, and found nothing illegal. "It must be hidden away," they say, as they continue picking and poking for a couple more minutes. Then it's free-for all time. Because it must be hidden. "And how dare he hide it from us," they scream with impunity, as they begin the childish scatter of materials from one end of the house to the other. |
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Posted: 1/13/2006 7:56:11 AM EDT
[#30]
You know whats sad? When we get a tip that there is something in the home of a local here, and get clearance to search, if they are home we ask them to open anything locked. If they are not and we have to cut locks, we take locks with us to leave, and if we damage anything they are issued a reciept and will be paid as soon as that same day if they come by the FOB with it..... if we don't find anything of course. If we find something they are not going to see home for a while. An erronious search of an Afghan home or business by us results in immediate apologies and no-questions asked, no bullshit payment for any damages. Couple that with how US LE treats the same situations.... the "not our fault/not our problem" syndrome. Looks like maybe the whole "hearts and minds" thing needs a little more push at home. |
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Posted: 1/13/2006 8:07:37 AM EDT
[#31]
At its most basic element, what do we have here? We have LE officers investigating a suspected violation of the law by obtaining a warrant and executing said warrant. Elemental,and as I said, happens every day.You an argue all day as to the specifics of the case and where you think something went wrong. |
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Posted: 1/13/2006 8:08:25 AM EDT
[#32]
And that's in a true war zone! Sheesh! These 'peace officers' think that they, here in the US, are living in a 'war zone', as well. Eric The(TheFireNextTime)Hun
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Posted: 1/13/2006 8:08:46 AM EDT
[#33]
Wow. amazing....you sure you aren't a traitor working for the BATFEQYHET? Funny, you always are there to defend the JBT's. In this case, it can't get much clearer who the enemy is....what a bunch of scumbags, no wonder people hate the ATF. Lovely pics of them posing with their victims too.... Shit, it boggles the mind...we are LE, and we are here to help..... |
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Posted: 1/13/2006 8:10:39 AM EDT
[#34]
There is no reason to trash the guys house, destroy property, leave it unsecured, and when NOTHING is found basically tell the guy to fuck off.... Now, maybe you and/or your departmnent think this should be SOP...that would explain a lot.... |
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Posted: 1/13/2006 8:10:46 AM EDT
[#35]
Psst, pzjgr, it's the FBI posing with their victims!
Wouldn't the Founding Fathers be tickled pink? Eric The(Facetious)Hun
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Posted: 1/13/2006 8:11:33 AM EDT
[#36]
At it's most basic element, we have governmental abuse at its absolute worst. "Shall not be infringed" being ignored for political expediency and to justify the existance of an organization that no free country needs. |
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Posted: 1/13/2006 8:12:29 AM EDT
[#37]
Ahh, they are both FBI...I thought maybe one was ATF....The one is obvious by his Partei, errr, FBI Armband.... |
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Posted: 1/13/2006 8:14:36 AM EDT
[#38]
This happened in what? Early 80's. I remember reading about it in Soldier of Fiction, I mean Fortune a long time ago.
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Posted: 1/13/2006 8:15:51 AM EDT
[#39]
what we have is the ripping apart of someones house,who had nothing illegal, then was told to go shit in his hat about the mess. If that is right and justified to you, We have more to fear from your kind than I thought. |
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Posted: 1/13/2006 8:16:40 AM EDT
[#40]
Sourced articles are dated '91. Still Boston Common was a couple hundred years ago and it is still worth talking about to remember WHY some forms of government are worse than others... And why they should be fought to prevent them from taking even more power. |
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Posted: 1/13/2006 8:18:43 AM EDT
[#41]
Ya know, maybe this did start out as a legitimate search, but leaving his place like that and treating the neighbors that way? My guess is that LE made a few more enemies that day. Maybe enemies is the wrong word, but they most defiinitely lost the respect and expectation of cooporation for the future from those folks involved.
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Posted: 1/13/2006 8:25:00 AM EDT
[#42]
I got news for you: criminals hide things. They don't leave them sitting out on the counter to be found, generally. That means taking things apart at the location being searched to find them. We have only his comments to support a claim that nothing illegal is going on. Apparently you don't think that reports of illegal actions should be dealt with. The officers don't know that he has nothing illegal until the actually search. You are looking at the incident with the benefit of hindsight and expecting that officers should just assume that hes a law abiding guy they shouldn't investigate. |
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Posted: 1/13/2006 8:27:51 AM EDT
[#43]
So that means they can leave his house trashed? Okay.
 Why is it that when LEO's search a vehicle and tear it apart, they don't put it back the way they found it? Every story I've heard leaves the victim having to clean up the mess the LEO's made. Granted, I've not seen this firsthand but only read about it on various venues. If I'm wrong and this doesn't happen, I'm glad. I don't want to be right about this. |
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Posted: 1/13/2006 8:30:09 AM EDT
[#44]
Lemme guess: you are one of those guys who thinks there should be no gun laws. Hate to disappoint ya, but that will never be the case. Guys like you will always be unhappy with society because it doesn't fit your idea of what society should be. I am truly sorry that we have no lawless frontier area where guys like you who do not want to live in a society with rules can go and blow off steam or whatever ( well, you can always buy a plane ticket to Somolia; I hear they are fairly lawless there and the rule of the gun should make you happy). The reality is that you live in a civilzied society that has rules in place. There is a process in place to get those rules amended if enough people in the country agree with your position, a system thats much better than any other you'll find in any developed nation.It is what it is. No nation is perfect. |
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Posted: 1/13/2006 8:31:00 AM EDT
[#45]
There is no requirement that they do so. Its as simple as that. |
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Posted: 1/13/2006 8:34:44 AM EDT
[#46]
only we subjects have to have personal resposibility, LEOs and feds get another free pass.
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Posted: 1/13/2006 8:36:01 AM EDT
[#47]
Wow. So, that makes it OK? And they wonder why people have a bad attitude about LEO's. I hope it doesn't ever happen to me because something like that would pretty much turn me against every LEO out there. That or call me a liar when I'm not. You know, I guess I'm really starting to understand there is an US vs THEM mentality between LEO's and civilians. I always hoped that wasn't the case but I guess I'm wrong. Unfortunately, it appears that a rather large part of it stems from LEO's themselves. Sad. |
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Posted: 1/13/2006 8:38:59 AM EDT
[#48]
If we can go into a home here and treat it with respect, while still conducting an effective search, leave it as clean as we can and as close to the condition we found it in, and pay for any damages if it turns out to be bad info, I would expect you guys back home who do the searches at considerably less risk with considerably more resources to at least do the same for US citizens. It is not about not searching or conducting a through search...it is about treating people with respect and if you didn't find anything fixing the damage you did and paying for what you cannot fix... and doing it ASAP, not after they wait for weeks, fill out countless forms, or even sue. |
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Posted: 1/13/2006 8:39:02 AM EDT
[#49]
And I suppose this state of affairs is perfectly acceptable to you? ETA- I really wanted to call you a fu(k-tard, but I managed to restrain myself. You are a perfect example of why there is an us/them mentality. |
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Posted: 1/13/2006 8:39:46 AM EDT
[#50]
It's not my idea... it's how the Founders set things up. Don't like it... leave. Just don't drag us down into a Third World shithole like you are advocating. Yes... we are a Nation of Laws. The Constitution being the HIGHEST of those Laws. Ones even the Government is supposed to follow. "Shall not be infringed" is the "Supreme law of the Land". Opinions of jackbooted shitheads like you not withstanding. |
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