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Link Posted: 9/25/2014 10:01:11 PM EDT
[#1]



Link Posted: 9/25/2014 10:01:13 PM EDT
[#2]
practice > pistol caliber choice
Link Posted: 9/25/2014 10:01:46 PM EDT
[#3]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
I notice they aren't comparing it to 10mm.
View Quote


Because their girly men and women agents couldn't handle the recoil.  
Link Posted: 9/25/2014 10:01:58 PM EDT
[#4]
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Quoted:
I didn't need the FBI to tell me that having 16 rounds is better than 8.

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When it's a 9mm, you need those extra rounds.
Link Posted: 9/25/2014 10:02:00 PM EDT
[#5]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
Will people finally stop with the handgun caliber debate?
View Quote


We can now. This has settled it.
Link Posted: 9/25/2014 10:02:47 PM EDT
[#6]
Link Posted: 9/25/2014 10:03:10 PM EDT
[#7]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
In for the shit show of people trying to justify their carry gun.
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Depending on where, time of year and situation, I have: .380, 9mm, .38, .357, .40 and .45 carry guns.

I carry what I shoot well and works for the time and place.
Link Posted: 9/25/2014 10:03:16 PM EDT
[#8]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
I notice they aren't comparing it to 10mm.
View Quote



Umm... They said 9mm through .45.

Unless math changed since I was in school, 10mm falls in between those two.
Link Posted: 9/25/2014 10:04:55 PM EDT
[#9]
Quoted:
From the FBI Training Division at Quantico.

Excerpts:

• 9mm Luger now offers select projectiles which are, under identical testing conditions, I outperforming most of the premium line .40 S&W and .45 Auto projectiles tested by the FBI

• 9mm Luger offers higher magazine capacities, less recoil, lower cost (both in ammunition and wear on the weapons) and higher functional reliability rates (in FBI weapons)

• There is little to no noticeable difference in the wound tracks between premium line law Auto enforcement projectiles from 9mm Luger through the .45 Auto

"Rarely in law enforcement does a topic stir a more passionate debate than the choice of handgun caliber made by a law enforcement organization. Many voice their opinions by repeating the old adage “bigger is better” while others have “heard of this one time” where a smaller caliber failed and a larger caliber “would have performed much better.” Some even subscribe to the belief that a caliber exists which will provide a “one shot stop.” It has been stated, “Decisions on ammunition selection are particularly difficult because many of the pertinent issues related to handguns and ammunition are firmly rooted in myth and folklore.” This still holds as true today as it did when originally stated 20 years ago."

"Due to the elastic nature of most human tissue and the low velocity of handgun projectiles relative to rifle projectiles, it has long been established by medical professionals, experienced in evaluating gunshot wounds, that the damage along a wound path visible at autopsy or during surgery cannot be distinguished between the common handgun calibers used in law enforcement. That is to say an operating room surgeon or Medical Examiner cannot distinguish the difference between wounds caused by .35 to .45 caliber projectiles."

"The Ballistic Research Facility has conducted a test which compares similar sized Glock pistols in both .40 S&W and 9mm calibers, to determine if more accurate and faster hits are achievable with one versus the other. To date, the majority of the study participants have shot more quickly and more accurately with 9mm caliber Glock pistols."

• The move to 9mm Luger can now be viewed as a decided advantage for our armed law enforcement personnel.

Full article
View Quote


I'll keep this in mind if ever I should:

A) Join the FBI
B) Be attacked by a block or blocks of naked gelatin
C) Decide to live out the remainder of my life in the nirvana of a controlled environment of a ballistics lab
D) All the above

Until then, I'll stick with cartridges that begin with "4" and end with "5".
Link Posted: 9/25/2014 10:05:53 PM EDT
[#10]
Link Posted: 9/25/2014 10:06:09 PM EDT
[#11]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:



Umm... They said 9mm through .45.

Unless math changed since I was in school, 10mm falls in between those two.
View Quote View All Quotes
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Quoted:
Quoted:
I notice they aren't comparing it to 10mm.



Umm... They said 9mm through .45.

Unless math changed since I was in school, 10mm falls in between those two.


I'd guess right about .40
Link Posted: 9/25/2014 10:06:53 PM EDT
[#12]

Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
I knew we wouldn't make it past 2 pages before somebody mentioned being attacked by jello. God bless the internet.
View Quote View All Quotes
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Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:



Quoted:

I'll keep this in mind if ever I should:



A) Join the FBI

B) Be attacked by a block or blocks of naked gelatin

C) Decide to live out the remainder of my life in the nirvana of a controlled environment of a ballistics lab or

D) All the above



Until then, I'll stick with cartridges that begin with "4" and end with "5".





I knew we wouldn't make it past 2 pages before somebody mentioned being attacked by jello. God bless the internet.


Well, it wasn't jello wearing armor or it might have been different (assuming anyone pays attention to that NIJ threat level nonsense).





 
Link Posted: 9/25/2014 10:07:06 PM EDT
[#13]
Quoted:
From the FBI Training Division at Quantico.

Excerpts:

• 9mm Luger now offers select projectiles which are, under identical testing conditions, outperforming most of the premium line .40 S&W and .45 Auto projectiles tested by the FBI
View Quote



But not all!




Link Posted: 9/25/2014 10:07:18 PM EDT
[#14]
Quoted:
From the FBI Training Division at Quantico.

Excerpts:

• 9mm Luger now offers select projectiles which are, under identical testing conditions, I outperforming most of the premium line .40 S&W and .45 Auto projectiles tested by the FBI

• 9mm Luger offers higher magazine capacities, less recoil, lower cost (both in ammunition and wear on the weapons) and higher functional reliability rates (in FBI weapons)

• There is little to no noticeable difference in the wound tracks between premium line law Auto enforcement projectiles from 9mm Luger through the .45 Auto

"Rarely in law enforcement does a topic stir a more passionate debate than the choice of handgun caliber made by a law enforcement organization. Many voice their opinions by repeating the old adage “bigger is better” while others have “heard of this one time” where a smaller caliber failed and a larger caliber “would have performed much better.” Some even subscribe to the belief that a caliber exists which will provide a “one shot stop.” It has been stated, “Decisions on ammunition selection are particularly difficult because many of the pertinent issues related to handguns and ammunition are firmly rooted in myth and folklore.” This still holds as true today as it did when originally stated 20 years ago."

"Due to the elastic nature of most human tissue and the low velocity of handgun projectiles relative to rifle projectiles, it has long been established by medical professionals, experienced in evaluating gunshot wounds, that the damage along a wound path visible at autopsy or during surgery cannot be distinguished between the common handgun calibers used in law enforcement. That is to say an operating room surgeon or Medical Examiner cannot distinguish the difference between wounds caused by .35 to .45 caliber projectiles."

"The Ballistic Research Facility has conducted a test which compares similar sized Glock pistols in both .40 S&W and 9mm calibers, to determine if more accurate and faster hits are achievable with one versus the other. To date, the majority of the study participants have shot more quickly and more accurately with 9mm caliber Glock pistols."

• The move to 9mm Luger can now be viewed as a decided advantage for our armed law enforcement personnel.

Full article
View Quote


9mm is better.  It took the fucking FBI 30 years to figure it out.  Imagine that.   Color me shocked.
About fucking time.
Link Posted: 9/25/2014 10:08:59 PM EDT
[#15]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
In for the shit show of people trying to justify their carry gun.
View Quote


No need here, I've carried a 9mm for years and I doubt I will ever switch regardless of what study comes out.

It just happens to agree with me this time, for much of the same reasons I believe.
Link Posted: 9/25/2014 10:09:06 PM EDT
[#16]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:


9mm is better.  It took the fucking FBI 30 years to figure it out.  Imagine that.   Color me shocked.
About fucking time.
View Quote View All Quotes
View All Quotes
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
Quoted:
From the FBI Training Division at Quantico.

Excerpts:

• 9mm Luger now offers select projectiles which are, under identical testing conditions, I outperforming most of the premium line .40 S&W and .45 Auto projectiles tested by the FBI

• 9mm Luger offers higher magazine capacities, less recoil, lower cost (both in ammunition and wear on the weapons) and higher functional reliability rates (in FBI weapons)

• There is little to no noticeable difference in the wound tracks between premium line law Auto enforcement projectiles from 9mm Luger through the .45 Auto

"Rarely in law enforcement does a topic stir a more passionate debate than the choice of handgun caliber made by a law enforcement organization. Many voice their opinions by repeating the old adage “bigger is better” while others have “heard of this one time” where a smaller caliber failed and a larger caliber “would have performed much better.” Some even subscribe to the belief that a caliber exists which will provide a “one shot stop.” It has been stated, “Decisions on ammunition selection are particularly difficult because many of the pertinent issues related to handguns and ammunition are firmly rooted in myth and folklore.” This still holds as true today as it did when originally stated 20 years ago."

"Due to the elastic nature of most human tissue and the low velocity of handgun projectiles relative to rifle projectiles, it has long been established by medical professionals, experienced in evaluating gunshot wounds, that the damage along a wound path visible at autopsy or during surgery cannot be distinguished between the common handgun calibers used in law enforcement. That is to say an operating room surgeon or Medical Examiner cannot distinguish the difference between wounds caused by .35 to .45 caliber projectiles."

"The Ballistic Research Facility has conducted a test which compares similar sized Glock pistols in both .40 S&W and 9mm calibers, to determine if more accurate and faster hits are achievable with one versus the other. To date, the majority of the study participants have shot more quickly and more accurately with 9mm caliber Glock pistols."

• The move to 9mm Luger can now be viewed as a decided advantage for our armed law enforcement personnel.

Full article


9mm is better.  It took the fucking FBI 30 years to figure it out.  Imagine that.   Color me shocked.
About fucking time.


30 years ago it certainly was not an advantage.  Modern metallurgy and engineering has made it what it is.
Link Posted: 9/25/2014 10:09:13 PM EDT
[#17]

Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:


Said it before, with current bullet "Technology" 9mm is the way to go.





Edit: take it from someone who knows....bullets don't kill people like you think...it's all about multiple hits.
View Quote


I've seen someone take a torso and lower extremity hit from a .50 cal. It took him a couple minutes to realize he was already dead.



 
Link Posted: 9/25/2014 10:09:26 PM EDT
[#18]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
Wow, and I was just getting ready to move my EDC caliber from 9mm to 10mm
View Quote

10mm is still best mm.
Link Posted: 9/25/2014 10:09:40 PM EDT
[#19]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:


9mm is better.  It took the fucking FBI 30 years to figure it out.  Imagine that.   Color me shocked.
About fucking time.
View Quote View All Quotes
View All Quotes
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
Quoted:
From the FBI Training Division at Quantico.

Excerpts:

• 9mm Luger now offers select projectiles which are, under identical testing conditions, I outperforming most of the premium line .40 S&W and .45 Auto projectiles tested by the FBI

• 9mm Luger offers higher magazine capacities, less recoil, lower cost (both in ammunition and wear on the weapons) and higher functional reliability rates (in FBI weapons)

• There is little to no noticeable difference in the wound tracks between premium line law Auto enforcement projectiles from 9mm Luger through the .45 Auto

"Rarely in law enforcement does a topic stir a more passionate debate than the choice of handgun caliber made by a law enforcement organization. Many voice their opinions by repeating the old adage “bigger is better” while others have “heard of this one time” where a smaller caliber failed and a larger caliber “would have performed much better.” Some even subscribe to the belief that a caliber exists which will provide a “one shot stop.” It has been stated, “Decisions on ammunition selection are particularly difficult because many of the pertinent issues related to handguns and ammunition are firmly rooted in myth and folklore.” This still holds as true today as it did when originally stated 20 years ago."

"Due to the elastic nature of most human tissue and the low velocity of handgun projectiles relative to rifle projectiles, it has long been established by medical professionals, experienced in evaluating gunshot wounds, that the damage along a wound path visible at autopsy or during surgery cannot be distinguished between the common handgun calibers used in law enforcement. That is to say an operating room surgeon or Medical Examiner cannot distinguish the difference between wounds caused by .35 to .45 caliber projectiles."

"The Ballistic Research Facility has conducted a test which compares similar sized Glock pistols in both .40 S&W and 9mm calibers, to determine if more accurate and faster hits are achievable with one versus the other. To date, the majority of the study participants have shot more quickly and more accurately with 9mm caliber Glock pistols."

• The move to 9mm Luger can now be viewed as a decided advantage for our armed law enforcement personnel.

Full article


9mm is better.  It took the fucking FBI 30 years to figure it out.  Imagine that.   Color me shocked.
About fucking time.


Actually it took them 106 years because that's how old the FBI is, or 4 years younger than the 9mm Luger.
Link Posted: 9/25/2014 10:10:07 PM EDT
[#20]
We've known this for years yo
Link Posted: 9/25/2014 10:10:54 PM EDT
[#21]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
Will people finally stop with the handgun caliber debate?
View Quote


Oh goodness no, you silly.

This is more fuel for the caliber jihad!
Link Posted: 9/25/2014 10:11:16 PM EDT
[#22]
So, just ignore the field data then?
Link Posted: 9/25/2014 10:12:04 PM EDT
[#23]
This will cause a shitstorm . I researched this years ago and came to the same conclusion
Link Posted: 9/25/2014 10:12:16 PM EDT
[#24]

Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:



I'll keep this in mind if ever I should:



A) Join the FBI

B) Be attacked by a block or blocks of naked gelatin

C) Decide to live out the remainder of my life in the nirvana of a controlled environment of a ballistics lab

D) All the above



Until then, I'll stick with cartridges that begin with "4" and end with "5".

View Quote




"Hello face, my old friend", said the palm.



 
Link Posted: 9/25/2014 10:13:12 PM EDT
[#25]
Handgun calibers are for the most-part ~=

9mm~=.40~=.45

Now you can get into interesting discussions about revolver cartridges that get into ~near lower-end rifle ballistics...

But it's still a handgun... Harder to aim as well as a rifle, shorter barrel, etc.

But for common caliber service rounds... They are all small, straight-walled cartridges leaving a ~5-7 inch barrel...

The ballistic trade off from 9mm to .45 is a little more speed in the 9mm and a bigger hole in the .45...

9mm~=.40~=.45

For service calibers, I agree with the findings of the FBI and many others who have concluded the same thing...
Link Posted: 9/25/2014 10:13:47 PM EDT
[#26]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
Meh... Give it 20 years, they come up with something going the other way,  justify buying new weapons.

Same goes for M4 replacement, new military sidearms and camo patterns.
View Quote


That's all they're doing...they switch back and forth between 9mm and 40cal every 5 years or so.  It's ridiculous.
Link Posted: 9/25/2014 10:14:03 PM EDT
[#27]
Thanks for catching up FBI
Link Posted: 9/25/2014 10:14:16 PM EDT
[#28]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
Let me shoot you with a 9mm. Then a 45. Or hell, you pick which one first

Tell me if you notice a difference
View Quote


This stupid argument point showed up faster than expected
Link Posted: 9/25/2014 10:14:51 PM EDT
[#29]
In for the butt hurt.
Link Posted: 9/25/2014 10:14:54 PM EDT
[#30]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:

Well, it wasn't jello wearing armor or it might have been different (assuming anyone pays attention to that NIJ threat level nonsense).

 
View Quote View All Quotes
View All Quotes
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
I'll keep this in mind if ever I should:

A) Join the FBI
B) Be attacked by a block or blocks of naked gelatin
C) Decide to live out the remainder of my life in the nirvana of a controlled environment of a ballistics lab or
D) All the above

Until then, I'll stick with cartridges that begin with "4" and end with "5".


I knew we wouldn't make it past 2 pages before somebody mentioned being attacked by jello. God bless the internet.

Well, it wasn't jello wearing armor or it might have been different (assuming anyone pays attention to that NIJ threat level nonsense).

 

If your jello assailant is wearing denim or hiding behind windshield glass sometimes the holler points get plugged up yaknow...
Link Posted: 9/25/2014 10:14:56 PM EDT
[#31]
Sticking to .45 because 1) any ammo you can get in 9mm you can get in .45 and 2) all my cans are in .45
Link Posted: 9/25/2014 10:15:08 PM EDT
[#32]
Proper conclusion:   Handgun rounds, in 'duty' guns in general, suck as man stoppers.

Keltec needs to make a .375H&H revolver so Ruger can clone it.
Link Posted: 9/25/2014 10:16:36 PM EDT
[#33]
I think what most people who aren't around training environments on a regular basis fail to appreciate is just how much of a difference the recoil and flash can make in terms of accuracy for newer shooters.  It's not just cheaper to train someone on several thousand rounds of pistol ammo, it's also going to be more effective training because they're probably going to flinch less, and pick up the proper muscle memory faster.

The inherent problem in all ballistics comparisons is that it automatically assumes each caliber is equally likely to strike the vitals of the target.  In reality, while the differences aren't vast, there are indeed measurable speed and accuracy gains to be made in going with a lower caliber...and that plays a huge role in determining which one is really going to work at the end of the day.
Link Posted: 9/25/2014 10:16:58 PM EDT
[#34]
I'm like a Jewish Christian Buddhist. I have 9-40 and 45  - I don't debate, I work on proficiency and accuracy with each caliber.
Link Posted: 9/25/2014 10:17:14 PM EDT
[#35]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
Wow, and I was just getting ready to move my EDC caliber from 9mm to 10mm
View Quote


FBI is scared of 10mm, note they didn't mention it.
Link Posted: 9/25/2014 10:17:36 PM EDT
[#36]
I have all I them, I will stick to my 9 hands down.
Link Posted: 9/25/2014 10:17:57 PM EDT
[#37]
Shot placement uber allies.  Caliber is irrelevant.
Link Posted: 9/25/2014 10:18:00 PM EDT
[#38]
Nothing new in this article.  I've switched to all 9mm and will stay with it forever.  At the end of the day, I wanna shoot my guns and 9mm is a pleasure to shoot and inexpensive to boot.  And it apparently hurts a mutha fucka real good too.
Link Posted: 9/25/2014 10:18:39 PM EDT
[#39]
Link Posted: 9/25/2014 10:18:49 PM EDT
[#40]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
This will cause a shitstorm . I researched this years ago and came to the same conclusion
View Quote


Yup, I walked away from 45 in 2004-2008-ish.  Slowly buying fewer and fewer 45s until now where it's 9mm pistol or pass.
Link Posted: 9/25/2014 10:19:04 PM EDT
[#41]
It's the damn FBI's fault we have .40 caliber to begin with.  
Link Posted: 9/25/2014 10:19:19 PM EDT
[#42]
This should keep me entertained for a little bit.
Link Posted: 9/25/2014 10:19:21 PM EDT
[#43]
Link Posted: 9/25/2014 10:19:50 PM EDT
[#44]

Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
The FBI has in fact been having lots of problems with their .40 caliber Glocks...and the ballistics unit has been putting out information on the very marginal differences between the service calibers for years.
View Quote View All Quotes
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Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:



Quoted:

Meh.  A 9mm lover must have become head of the department.




The FBI has in fact been having lots of problems with their .40 caliber Glocks...and the ballistics unit has been putting out information on the very marginal differences between the service calibers for years.
What are the specific problems you're hearing about?

 
Link Posted: 9/25/2014 10:20:05 PM EDT
[#45]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:


yep, more holes > bigger holes, or in this case, slightly imperceptibly bigger holes.
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Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
Quoted:
9mm > .45


yep, more holes > bigger holes, or in this case, slightly imperceptibly bigger holes.

fify
Link Posted: 9/25/2014 10:20:09 PM EDT
[#46]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:


Nope. A few months ago I read something by some blog fuckwit somewhere that argued 1 .45 does the damage of 3 or 4 9mm rounds...and some people got offended when I said it was bullshit.
View Quote View All Quotes
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Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
Quoted:
Will people finally stop with the handgun caliber debate?


Nope. A few months ago I read something by some blog fuckwit somewhere that argued 1 .45 does the damage of 3 or 4 9mm rounds...and some people got offended when I said it was bullshit.

Of course it's BS. Everyone knows that .45 cannot possibly do the damage of 3 or 4 9mm rounds: it takes 1 round of 10mm to do the job of 4 9mm rounds.

Link Posted: 9/25/2014 10:21:40 PM EDT
[#47]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
I notice they aren't comparing it to 10mm.
View Quote


Look at the criteria.

Cost effectiveness, controllability etc.

9mm still wins.
Link Posted: 9/25/2014 10:22:49 PM EDT
[#48]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
I didn't need the FBI to tell me that having 16 rounds is better than 8.

View Quote


No kidding...

There are still some fuddy-duddies here that cary wheel guns, lol.
Link Posted: 9/25/2014 10:23:28 PM EDT
[#49]
9 and 10mm for small and large caliber FTW!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Link Posted: 9/25/2014 10:23:42 PM EDT
[#50]
As a member and loyal follower of the peoples party of .40 S&W...I say:




















 
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