Ebay/Paypal just stole 332 dollars from me - Page 2

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[ARCHIVED THREAD] - Ebay/Paypal just stole 332 dollars from me (Page 2 of 3)

Posted: 7/20/2008 12:22:27 PM EDT

[#1]

Quoted:
I'm sorry to hear about your bad luck with paypal, I too have had problems with them.

I used to make a dime here and there selling new and used paintball gear via various online paintball communities.

On one such occasion, I sold an older, used Sterling. The seller paid me, and a few days later I shipped out the marker. As I didn't have the time to do it the next day, I alerted him that it would not be shipped out to him for another day or so. He agreed that this was fine, and was eager to receive the marker.

Two weeks alter after not hearing back from him and having confirmation of the marker getting to him (I always ship with a tracking number), I received a notice that paypal would be refunding his money back. The buyer claimed that he never received the package, despite my being able to show proof that it had, in fact, been delivered.

I logged into my paypal account, and the funds were gone, and the next day my account was locked.

I now exclusively use Money Orders or FTF deals when able to.

The problem comes in the fact that just because you have a tracking number, doesnt mean the person got the package, only that is had been delivered to a certain address. Its why the terms and conditions always make you ship with signature confirmation.

People with stolen credit cards buy things everyday online and get it shipped to a neighbors house that they know is gone all day long.

When a police investigation initiates, the owner of the home cant go and be arrested simply because it was shipped to their address and assumed that they are in possession of the property...

The same goes for paypals and ebays policies, they dont assume the person has the property just because it was shipped to their address unless they signed for it.

Ship everything to a verified address with signature confirmation and tracking number, and insured.. and you wont have a problem.

Posted: 7/20/2008 12:24:00 PM EDT

[#2]

Quoted:

Quoted:
Paypal is holding ~$1400 of my money right now. It's almost criminal what they can get away with. If you want some company with your misery you can go to paypalsucks.com and read where other people have been screwed too.

Consider yourself lucky that it's only on paper you got fucked. At least you have your money, right?

and what policy did you not follow? Probably the same ones the idiots on PPsucks didn't follow. There is not 1 person on that site that did what they were supposed to do that lost money.

PayPal is so freakin regulated it is not funny. They couldn't get away with half the shit people claim.

there are rules to being a merchant and accepting money and selling etc etc. If PayPal was breaking rules they'd be shut down. Jesus gents this is not rocket science. They can't just arbitrarily steal your money. The only way the ONLY way is if you screw up.

And if you had a merchant account with visa and Mastercard they'd do the same EXACT thing. There are rules to doing business. Just cause you put it in a box with postage doesn't mean you wipe away responsibility.

The person that bought the tickets has them and also has their money back. Isn't that considered fraud and/or theft?

If THAT person gets on that plane yes it is fraud or theft. If he sells it to someone else yes that is fraud or theft.

The OP would be better off discussing this with the airline then here. For that dollar amount though most cops won't do anything. IF the OP goes to his local cops and files a complaint with their detectives. They will tell him there is nothing they can do because often they are lazy.

If the OP were to do that and tell them that if they file a subpoena with PP that PP will get them everything they need. and the OP IMs me simply asks me to help I will ensure that PP works the case. I don't even give a shit if he hates me for the rest of his life I'll help.

If for example you were to go to the knife forum and ask Busse and others how many freakin cases I have ended successfully for them they'd be happy to tell you a lot. I helped him get his show whole display back once. No muss no fuss it was back in his hands ASAP.

Contrary to the accusation above on this page I have done a lot to protect PP customers. My entire time at PayPal was spent helping customers. Like going to Nigeria to help a guy get his crap back or romania to help them set up a high tech task for to catch those assholes that make phishing sites. And helped them craft laws against crimes that weren't even on the books and argued with DOJ over and over to go overseas and stop these people.

The reason I get pissed off is people have no idea how much PP has done and how much my team did to protect people but there are rules.

Anyone that believes anything on PP sucks is a freakin moron. One of the loudest PPsucks contributers was a dirtbag in this area that was stealing from his elderly parents. He was arrested tried convicted and got probation and became a major contributer to that site with little BS made up stories.

Oh and BTW... If you look deep enough PPsucks is funded by a company that offers credit card merchant services. A competitor. Well you don't even have to look deep it is out in the open.

Don't like PP use them and see how much money you keep.

Posted: 7/20/2008 12:29:03 PM EDT

[#3]

Quoted:

Quoted:
Paypal is holding ~$1400 of my money right now. It's almost criminal what they can get away with. If you want some company with your misery you can go to paypalsucks.com and read where other people have been screwed too.

Consider yourself lucky that it's only on paper you got fucked. At least you have your money, right?

and what policy did you not follow? Probably the same ones the idiots on PPsucks didn't follow. There is not 1 person on that site that did what they were supposed to do that lost money.

PayPal is so freakin regulated it is not funny. They couldn't get away with half the shit people claim.

there are rules to being a merchant and accepting money and selling etc etc. If PayPal was breaking rules they'd be shut down. Jesus gents this is not rocket science. They can't just arbitrarily steal your money. The only way the ONLY way is if you screw up.

And if you had a merchant account with visa and Mastercard they'd do the same EXACT thing. There are rules to doing business. Just cause you put it in a box with postage doesn't mean you wipe away responsibility.

The person that bought the tickets has them and also has their money back. Isn't that considered fraud and/or theft?

If THAT person gets on that plane yes it is fraud or theft. If he sells it to someone else yes that is fraud or theft.

The OP would be better off discussing this with the airline then here. For that dollar amount though most cops won't do anything. IF the OP goes to his local cops and files a complaint with their detectives. They will tell him there is nothing they can do because often they are lazy.

If the OP were to do that and tell them that if they file a subpoena with PP that PP will get them everything they need. and the OP IMs me simply asks me to help I will ensure that PP works the case. I don't even give a shit if he hates me for the rest of his life I'll help.

If for example you were to go to the knife forum and ask Busse and others how many freakin cases I have ended successfully for them they'd be happy to tell you a lot. I helped him get his show whole display back once. No muss no fuss it was back in his hands ASAP.

Contrary to the accusation above on this page I have done a lot to protect PP customers. My entire time at PayPal was spent helping customers. Like going to Nigeria to help a guy get his crap back or romania to help them set up a high tech task for to catch those assholes that make phishing sites. And helped them craft laws against crimes that weren't even on the books and argued with DOJ over and over to go overseas and stop these people.

The reason I get pissed off is people have no idea how much PP has done and how much my team did to protect people but there are rules.

Anyone that believes anything on PP sucks is a freakin moron. One of the loudest PPsucks contributers was a dirtbag in this area that was stealing from his elderly parents. He was arrested tried convicted and got probation and became a major contributer to that site with little BS made up stories.

Oh and BTW... If you look deep enough PPsucks is funded by a company that offers credit card merchant services. A competitor. Well you don't even have to look deep it is out in the open.

Don't like PP use them and see how much money you keep.

If ANY person uses that ticket, it is theft/fraud. Period.

I assume you are not supporting PP in their firearms related item restrictions, right?

Posted: 7/20/2008 12:33:37 PM EDT

[#4]

Quoted:

Quoted:
Okay shovelhead PayPal didnt steal my money this person stole my item and Paypal is an accomplice.

Wrong again. You are the accomplice for not doing the job right.

You seriously have no fricken idea what your talking about. I did do it right and even used paypals shipping service to ship the item.

Did you do signature confirmation? Or was that wrong in your original post?

Man if you would just have said "signature confirmation" (said it from the beginning ETD) instead of your "follow the rules" mantra. Things would get done faster. Reading this thread with all your "follow the rules" passive aggressive BS was like watching someone pour gas on a flame. Were you laughing an evil laugh the whole time or suffering from a blind spot? Just say what that rule is your refering to next time please.

Posted: 7/20/2008 12:36:07 PM EDT

[#5]

Quoted:

Quoted:
Okay shovelhead PayPal didnt steal my money this person stole my item and Paypal is an accomplice.

Wrong again. You are the accomplice for not doing the job right.

You seriously have no fricken idea what your talking about. I did do it right and even used paypals shipping service to ship the item.

there are just a number of people who haven't gotten fucked yet and they are still supportive of paypal. not many, but a few. they seem to be in complete denial of the *thousands and thousands* of people that have just been royally FUCKED in the ass by paypal. that will change the first time they have a problem and see first hand how paypal's "customer service" actually works.

LOL you have a lot in common with the other people that claim they were fucked by PP.

Again, there's no way to "argue" about it. You're on the outside looking in trying to explain to everyone else why they're wrong about the experience they've had and you haven't.

this is not some existential experience man. This is a policy, process and business. I apologize for getting pissed but I do take it personally. I worked really hard and so did my staff to protect the customers. Not ONCE when we started that company and when I worked there did anyone ever tell us to look after PayPal.

The customers are an asset to PP I know that is hard to believe but the operating principles are the same as they were in 1999. EVERY rule we have comes from working towards stopping fraudsters. The rules and policies are a contract and a partnership with the seller or buyer. If they follow the rules exactly we will protect them cut and dry.

It is not you go ahead do what you want and we'll cover your ass.

I will say that yes I do feel the rules are hard on Sellers sometimes. they assume that all sellers will take their roll as a merchant seriously. I am not being condescending but I told people all the time it is fun to see something lying around and wanting to sell it. It is fun to put it on eBay and get money. It is not so much fun to ship it in a precise way, it is not so much fun to be told that sometimes there is a cost to doing business and sometimes you lose.

I personally don't think it is great for the casual seller. If you are going to sell you have to protect yourself. you have to look at the buyers FB you have to make rules, you have to be clear in your auction that if you are a new buyer or if you have non delivery claims in your FB or whatever that you cannot bid.

You cannot just place an item on there and assume the guy on the other end is a good guy. I liked our sellers I liked our buyers we had lots of dirtbags on both sides though.

Again I apologize for getting pissed but the fact is I have been through this situation hundreds of times. EXACTLY like this situation.

Posted: 7/20/2008 12:36:55 PM EDT

[#6]

Quoted:
fuck paypal, i can't believe theres people in here actually defending that god awful piece of shit scam supporting company.

everyone with a paypal account needs to go and cancel it before they get ripped off.

LOL I can see right now why you had problems.

Posted: 7/20/2008 12:39:12 PM EDT

[#7]

Originally Posted By BadShovelhead]
Let's get this straight are you accusing me of making policies that screw or rip off people. If so please just answer yes. Are you suggesting that the company I am working for now has hired someone that would make policies for them that would screw people? Getting a bit personal now aren't you... so what about it?

So let's get this clear are you fucking accusing me of doing anything except being the single most stalwart advocate and worker that protects the money of customers on the internet?

He may not be accusing you, but I will. I bought an item (from a confirmed seller w/ decent feedback on ebay), paid via paypal (~$180). Never received the item. So I file the paypal "chargeback" and get $4 back. They say that the guy drained his acct, there's nothing they could do. Then, I was in the same situation as the OP (except I shipped it registered mail, since it was international), and got a -$300 balance for an item reported not delivered. So which is it? Can they recover the money or can't they? Did I get fucked both times? Because that's what it looks like. Or did your "buyer/seller protection" policy just not work?

In addition, both times, I informed local police, the FBI's cyber-crime group, etc. The first time, the local cops called me back saying PayPal wouldn't talk to them at all. WTF is up with that?

Also, why didn't PayPal have a phone support number listed on their website? Why did I have to go to paypalsucks.com to get their phone #? They did finally fix this. 4 years late.

How about an intelligent email support line that takes <3 days for a reply, and replies with something useful instead of a form letter that doesn't address the issue?

Also, if a "confirmed" address is needed to protect the seller/buyer, why not require people to confirm their address upon signing up? Would make things a whole lot simpler for all involved. But they couldn't do that, it might drive away the fraudsters, and thus their business. Also, if you want to sell international, confirmed addresses are few and far between, so it's nigh-on impossible to be covered. So why not have a functional way to confirm international addresses? Or is that too obvious an improvement?

Bottom line: they're a shitty company to deal with. Defend them all you want, but their customer service is and has been nothing short of awful. If you can't stand the heat, choose your employer better next time. Who you serve reflects upon you. Poorly, in this case.

Your sig line seems to be their modus operandi for how to deal with any customer complaints. Guess I know where they learned it.

Posted: 7/20/2008 12:39:31 PM EDT

[#8]

Anyone who uses PayPal (or at least allows PayPal to access their funds) is a fool.

If you feel you must use them, then open an account at a bank that's unrelated to any of your money or business, and transfer funds out the instant they arrive. Otherwise, sooner or later, you're going to come up short.

I stopped using PP years ago. I just don't have so much extra money that I can let them help themselves any time they feel they need to.

Posted: 7/20/2008 12:40:44 PM EDT

[#9]

Quoted:

Quoted:
No eBay/PayPal did not steal your money you failed to abide by the terms and conditions and sold something and what you have experienced is a cost of doing bad business.

It sucks I know but your statement is untrue. For 7 yrs I dealt with this kind of manufactured truth and 99% of the time when someone comes to a website and screams PP stole their money it is just not true. We would get state Attorney General offices calling us raising hell until we pointed out that the resident failed to mention a few things when they complained. At least you were honest in admitting it was your fault but the title is a bit misleading.

And yes it burns me personally because I built much of their fraud policy and this policy in particular because we took heavy losses because people would rip us off. Should we soak up the loss because you didn't follow through on the commitment?

As far as revenge? Drop it really bad idea.

I understand what terms and conditions mean. I also understand that he provided Paylal with proof of delivery, and shipped to a PP verified address. The fact that you're implying that he didn't follow through on a commitment shows that the PP policy you helped write seems to be broken. This makes me wary of doing business with the new internet payment venture you're working on, if you plan on implementing policies that screw so many people so frequently as Paypal does. Let's call a spade a spade here... the OP did everything reasonable to ensure delivery.

And as far as revenge goes, there are only so many Matthew Fosters listed in Gilbert, AZ on Zabasearch. Maybe we could turn this into one of those epic 500-page threads like the Arizona Parking Solutions thing, and bring a massive nationwide internet beatdown upon this guy?

Let's get this straight are you accusing me of making policies that screw or rip off people. If so please just answer yes. Are you suggesting that the company I am working for now has hired someone that would make policies for them that would screw people? Getting a bit personal now aren't you... so what about it?

So let's get this clear are you fucking accusing me of doing anything except being the single most stalwart advocate and worker that protects the money of customers on the internet?

RE-Read what the OP said before you make accusations. He didn't do signature confirmation so no he didn't do everything. Do you understand responsibility? Apparently you don't.

I am saying that the policy you appear to have written seems to be causing lots of problems for lots of people. I understand that selling on the internet is tricky business, and that there are lots of ways for both buyers and sellers to get screwed.

My question is this... what's to stop the intended recipient from getting a signature confirmation package, and just signing "front door" on the UPS scanner? And we all know how many UPS and FedEx drivers don't give a shit about signature requirements, and are more than happy to leave a package on a crackhouse doorstep. Even signature requirements are far from bulletproof. So what method do you propose to stop the rampant screwing of Paypal users?

I understand responsibility very well, as I service high-dollar clients across 10 states. I know how to read the policy book to them. I also understand how to solve customer problems. Guess which method has me on the fast track to upper management?

Posted: 7/20/2008 12:46:03 PM EDT

[#10]

Quoted:

Quoted:
I'm sorry to hear about your bad luck with paypal, I too have had problems with them.

I used to make a dime here and there selling new and used paintball gear via various online paintball communities.

On one such occasion, I sold an older, used Sterling. The seller paid me, and a few days later I shipped out the marker. As I didn't have the time to do it the next day, I alerted him that it would not be shipped out to him for another day or so. He agreed that this was fine, and was eager to receive the marker.

Two weeks alter after not hearing back from him and having confirmation of the marker getting to him (I always ship with a tracking number), I received a notice that paypal would be refunding his money back. The buyer claimed that he never received the package, despite my being able to show proof that it had, in fact, been delivered.

I logged into my paypal account, and the funds were gone, and the next day my account was locked.

I now exclusively use Money Orders or FTF deals when able to.

The problem comes in the fact that just because you have a tracking number, doesnt mean the person got the package, only that is had been delivered to a certain address. Its why the terms and conditions always make you ship with signature confirmation.

People with stolen credit cards buy things everyday online and get it shipped to a neighbors house that they know is gone all day long.

When a police investigation initiates, the owner of the home cant go and be arrested simply because it was shipped to their address and assumed that they are in possession of the property...

The same goes for paypals and ebays policies, they dont assume the person has the property just because it was shipped to their address unless they signed for it.

Ship everything to a verified address with signature confirmation and tracking number, and insured.. and you wont have a problem.

Thank you. This is correct. DRhodes it sucks I hate hearing stories like this. Trust me I want you to either grow a business or earn extra money whatever. I used to look forward to eBay live and to talk to people that had started with nothing and now live well. I felt like I was helping them.

We would also get some just amazingly bad decisions. One guy at the New Orleans eBay live 3 times asked me if I thought him sending 60K worth of computer memory to Ukraine was a good idea. I told him no 3 times, I told him he would lose everything. He said he thought it was his big break. The 4th time his wife came with him to the law enforcement booth. His wife cussed me out said I was trying to ruin their business, that we sucked and didn't want to help sellers etc etc the same shit I heard a million times.

I gave him my card told him to call me if he needed anything. 6 weeks later he emailed me told me he lost that shipment and asked if I could help. I looked in to it but at the time we had no traction in Eastern Europe.

3 times I told him, 1 time his wife cursed me out and made the same types of accusations others do. He was wrong.

I even had a Mountain View cop 4 times come buy our shop asking the same question. "Are you sure buying brand X flat screen TV from Italy for 6K less than it costs here is gonna be a rip off?" No idea if he ever sent that money. Never saw him again.

Internet is fun and games but when you deal with money it is real folks.

Posted: 7/20/2008 12:50:28 PM EDT

[#11]

You used pay pal---- Fail

Sorry Brother..... Stupid Tax.

Posted: 7/20/2008 12:59:42 PM EDT

[#12]

Quoted:

Quoted:
Quoted:
Paypal is holding ~$1400 of my money right now. It's almost criminal what they can get away with. If you want some company with your misery you can go to paypalsucks.com and read where other people have been screwed too.

Consider yourself lucky that it's only on paper you got fucked. At least you have your money, right?

and what policy did you not follow? Probably the same ones the idiots on PPsucks didn't follow. There is not 1 person on that site that did what they were supposed to do that lost money.

PayPal is so freakin regulated it is not funny. They couldn't get away with half the shit people claim.

there are rules to being a merchant and accepting money and selling etc etc. If PayPal was breaking rules they'd be shut down. Jesus gents this is not rocket science. They can't just arbitrarily steal your money. The only way the ONLY way is if you screw up.

And if you had a merchant account with visa and Mastercard they'd do the same EXACT thing. There are rules to doing business. Just cause you put it in a box with postage doesn't mean you wipe away responsibility.

The person that bought the tickets has them and also has their money back. Isn't that considered fraud and/or theft?

If THAT person gets on that plane yes it is fraud or theft. If he sells it to someone else yes that is fraud or theft.

The OP would be better off discussing this with the airline then here. For that dollar amount though most cops won't do anything. IF the OP goes to his local cops and files a complaint with their detectives. They will tell him there is nothing they can do because often they are lazy.

If the OP were to do that and tell them that if they file a subpoena with PP that PP will get them everything they need. and the OP IMs me simply asks me to help I will ensure that PP works the case. I don't even give a shit if he hates me for the rest of his life I'll help.

If for example you were to go to the knife forum and ask Busse and others how many freakin cases I have ended successfully for them they'd be happy to tell you a lot. I helped him get his show whole display back once. No muss no fuss it was back in his hands ASAP.

Contrary to the accusation above on this page I have done a lot to protect PP customers. My entire time at PayPal was spent helping customers. Like going to Nigeria to help a guy get his crap back or romania to help them set up a high tech task for to catch those assholes that make phishing sites. And helped them craft laws against crimes that weren't even on the books and argued with DOJ over and over to go overseas and stop these people.

The reason I get pissed off is people have no idea how much PP has done and how much my team did to protect people but there are rules.

Anyone that believes anything on PP sucks is a freakin moron. One of the loudest PPsucks contributers was a dirtbag in this area that was stealing from his elderly parents. He was arrested tried convicted and got probation and became a major contributer to that site with little BS made up stories.

Oh and BTW... If you look deep enough PPsucks is funded by a company that offers credit card merchant services. A competitor. Well you don't even have to look deep it is out in the open.

Don't like PP use them and see how much money you keep.

If ANY person uses that ticket, it is theft/fraud. Period.

I assume you are not supporting PP in their firearms related item restrictions, right?[/quote]

you must have missed the last 20 threads where I explained that policy. I'll do it here too.

no one at PP is anti gun. Hell we were all conservatives or at least Libertarians and gun owners. Meg Whitman is a conservative. There has never been any anti gun decisions made by either company in hundreds of meetings.

There have been shitty rules thrown at us.

Regulators and Visa and Mastercard make it impossible. They both told us that if we did firearm stuff we'd have to build an incredibly complicated systems. We can't take payments for porn either. Do you think I am anti porn?

GO to some sites on the internet that take Store Value card payments look at their policies. Most of the big companies do not allow payments for firearms or parts because Visa and Mastercard slams them. We would get fined 25K per firearms transaction.

Here is reality:

No one who does business well is anti payment for anything that is legal. ESPECIALLY firearm sales. Why? Because they are high dollar, low risk transactions between FFL with lots of paperwork.

We would have LOVED to take payments for firearms. In fact before we got hammered we LOVED those payments. That is safe revenue. NO one in business turns down safe revenue sir.

No we aren't now or ever anti gun hell one of my engineers now owns his own company making robots for the military that shoot really nice guns. we LOVE guns.

Rules and regulations sir folks gotta follow them even if they don't like them if they want to do business.

And this one is especially unfair because the rules Visa and Mastercard and regulators make are not equal for all companies.

Seriously PP would have LOVED to be taking tons of payments for firearms.

and no parts because Visa and Mastercard make the rules and also because we had people trying to circumvent the rules and put AK47 sling for 700 bucks lol

Posted: 7/20/2008 1:01:10 PM EDT

[#13]

Quoted:
Anyone who uses PayPal (or at least allows PayPal to access their funds) is a fool.

If you feel you must use them, then open an account at a bank that's unrelated to any of your money or business, and transfer funds out the instant they arrive. Otherwise, sooner or later, you're going to come up short.

I stopped using PP years ago. I just don't have so much extra money that I can let them help themselves any time they feel they need to.

Can I ask you why not just follow the rules of a service that you agree to? Seriously when you click on yes I agree I know no one reads it but it is a contract like all contracts. too many people act like internet contracts are a game.

Posted: 7/20/2008 1:02:18 PM EDT

[#14]

Something similar happened to me. I lost $500 to a crook and PayPal sent me to collections to recover the money. It's absolutely crooked and is one of many reasons to never do business with that douchebag anti-gun cocksucking company run by dirty commie assmunching motherfucking sons of bitches.

ETA: And stop trying to convince us it's not an anti gun company, Badshovelhead. It is an anti gun company. There is no reason for some of their behavior other than anti gun policy disguised as risk management. It is NOT all dictated by the credit card companies. Hell you don't even NEED to use a credit card to buy off of ebay so that's a bullshit theory right off the bat.

Posted: 7/20/2008 1:06:16 PM EDT

[#15]

Quoted:

Quoted:
No eBay/PayPal did not steal your money you failed to abide by the terms and conditions and sold something and what you have experienced is a cost of doing bad business.

It sucks I know but your statement is untrue. For 7 yrs I dealt with this kind of manufactured truth and 99% of the time when someone comes to a website and screams PP stole their money it is just not true. We would get state Attorney General offices calling us raising hell until we pointed out that the resident failed to mention a few things when they complained. At least you were honest in admitting it was your fault but the title is a bit misleading.

And yes it burns me personally because I built much of their fraud policy and this policy in particular because we took heavy losses because people would rip us off. Should we soak up the loss because you didn't follow through on the commitment?

As far as revenge? Drop it really bad idea.

I understand what terms and conditions mean. I also understand that he provided Paylal with proof of delivery, and shipped to a PP verified address. The fact that you're implying that he didn't follow through on a commitment shows that the PP policy you helped write seems to be broken. This makes me wary of doing business with the new internet payment venture you're working on, if you plan on implementing policies that screw so many people so frequently as Paypal does. Let's call a spade a spade here... the OP did everything reasonable to ensure delivery.

And as far as revenge goes, there are only so many Matthew Fosters listed in Gilbert, AZ on Zabasearch. Maybe we could turn this into one of those epic 500-page threads like the Arizona Parking Solutions thing, and bring a massive nationwide internet beatdown upon this guy?

Let's get this straight are you accusing me of making policies that screw or rip off people. If so please just answer yes. Are you suggesting that the company I am working for now has hired someone that would make policies for them that would screw people? Getting a bit personal now aren't you... so what about it?

So let's get this clear are you fucking accusing me of doing anything except being the single most stalwart advocate and worker that protects the money of customers on the internet?

RE-Read what the OP said before you make accusations. He didn't do signature confirmation so no he didn't do everything. Do you understand responsibility? Apparently you don't.

I am saying that the policy you appear to have written seems to be causing lots of problems for lots of people. I understand that selling on the internet is tricky business, and that there are lots of ways for both buyers and sellers to get screwed.

My question is this... what's to stop the intended recipient from getting a signature confirmation package, and just signing "front door" on the UPS scanner? And we all know how many UPS and FedEx drivers don't give a shit about signature requirements, and are more than happy to leave a package on a crackhouse doorstep. Even signature requirements are far from bulletproof. So what method do you propose to stop the rampant screwing of Paypal users?

I understand responsibility very well, as I service high-dollar clients across 10 states. I know how to read the policy book to them. I also understand how to solve customer problems. Guess which method has me on the fast track to upper management?

Great glad you are on the fast track. I am already there and have been for about 10 yrs now. I serviced high dollar clients globally. How is ship with signature confirmation confusing? If UPS or FEDEX does not follow through then THEY become the responsible party. Signature confirmation is a service you pay for they have to follow the rules.

So it does not matter what they do if it is sent signature confirmation you win. Period.

If you follow the terms you win why is that complicated? There is no screwing if PP users. sir if they follow the rules they keep their money. If they do not follow the rules then they have screwed themselves. You say a lot but you seem to miss the obvious.

Posted: 7/20/2008 1:07:41 PM EDT

[#16]

Quoted:

ETA: And stop trying to convince us it's not an anti gun company, Badshovelhead. It is an anti gun company. There is no reason for some of their behavior other than anti gun policy disguised as risk management. It is NOT all dictated by the credit card companies. Hell you don't even NEED to use a credit card to buy off of ebay so that's a bullshit theory right off the bat.

Agreed. Why does AIM take Mastercard/Visa? How can the CMP take Amex? If it's the CC companies, as BadShovelHead would have us believe, why the hell is the CMP allowed to take CCs for rifles shipped directly to their buyers? How can AIM take them for guns shipped to FFLs?

Posted: 7/20/2008 1:08:32 PM EDT

[#17]

Quoted:
Something similar happened to me. I lost $500 to a crook and PayPal sent me to collections to recover the money. It's absolutely crooked and is one of many reasons to never do business with that douchebag anti-gun cocksucking company run by dirty commie assmunching motherfucking sons of bitches.

ETA: And stop trying to convince us it's not an anti gun company, Badshovelhead. It is an anti gun company. There is no reason for some of their behavior other than anti gun policy disguised as risk management. It is NOT all dictated by the credit card companies. Hell you don't even NEED to use a credit card to buy off of ebay so that's a bullshit theory right off the bat.

Are you saying that I am lying? Are you saying that Meg Whitman who gives millions to GOP causes and is a staunch conservative is an anti gun and a commie? WTF have you done for the GOP and conservative causes? Are you saying Peter Theil who is as conservative a man as it gets who founded PayPal is a commie?

In short you have no idea WTF you are talking about and you do a shitty job at expressing what little you do know.

Posted: 7/20/2008 1:08:53 PM EDT

[#18]

If your Paypal account is linked to a bank account...can paypal enter your bank account and withdrawal money without authorization?

Posted: 7/20/2008 1:09:16 PM EDT

[#19]

There has to be a way to contact the airline, and possibly (gulp) TSA, and let them know a Ticket has been stolen from you. Wonder if it is possible to contact local law enforcement or the Feds? I know some of these suggestions may seem to be grasping as straws, but, the idea is to make life suck for the person that scammed the tickets/Certificates. Some kind of fraud/theft alert on those tickets would ( I hope) make life difficult for the douch-bag that bought them. A perfect scenerio would be for the ticket holder to get body slammed as soon as they show up and attempt to check in. Sad thing is, that person probably sold them to somebody who has no clue, and they would be the one that gets jacked up at the ticket counter.

Posted: 7/20/2008 1:11:19 PM EDT

[#20]

Simple solution:

Paypal should FORCE signature confirmation when you use their shipping checkout system.

Why don't they do this?

Posted: 7/20/2008 1:12:17 PM EDT

[#21]

Quoted:

Quoted:

ETA: And stop trying to convince us it's not an anti gun company, Badshovelhead. It is an anti gun company. There is no reason for some of their behavior other than anti gun policy disguised as risk management. It is NOT all dictated by the credit card companies. Hell you don't even NEED to use a credit card to buy off of ebay so that's a bullshit theory right off the bat.

Agreed. Why does AIM take Mastercard/Visa? How can the CMP take Amex? If it's the CC companies, as BadShovelHead would have us believe, why the hell is the CMP allowed to take CCs for rifles shipped directly to their buyers? How can AIM take them for guns shipped to FFLs?

Is AIM or CMP a payments processor? Are they the same type of business as PayPal? NO so please stop trying to have a eureka moment I don't think you are equipped for it.

Is AIM a money transmitter with licenses to do that in all 43 states that requires them to have them? Is AIM subject to the laws and regulations of the state of California? does AIM take payments from banks and credit cards abroad?

Sometimes Gents you may need to think a bit past what is in front of your face.

Posted: 7/20/2008 1:13:01 PM EDT

[#22]

Quoted:

Quoted:
Call the airline and see if they can do something?

Do you have the certificate number? I'd imagine that you could report it stolen to the airline, and the guy wouldn't know until he books his travel.

If you have a CC or bank account linked to your paypal account, then remove it immediately. If they come at you for it, then just notify the bureaus that it's a disputed account and paypal can go screw themselves. If you have a CC linked to the account and they charge it, then dispute the charge and get a replacement card with a different number.

I have credit cards and a checking account tied to my paypal account. I just tried to remove them and it wont let me saying I cant do so with a negative balance.

Request new credit card numbers and a new bank account number (citing fraud to those companies). That should solve your issue.

Posted: 7/20/2008 1:13:18 PM EDT

[#23]

Quoted:

Quoted:

ETA: And stop trying to convince us it's not an anti gun company, Badshovelhead. It is an anti gun company. There is no reason for some of their behavior other than anti gun policy disguised as risk management. It is NOT all dictated by the credit card companies. Hell you don't even NEED to use a credit card to buy off of ebay so that's a bullshit theory right off the bat.

Agreed. Why does AIM take Mastercard/Visa? How can the CMP take Amex? If it's the CC companies, as BadShovelHead would have us believe, why the hell is the CMP allowed to take CCs for rifles shipped directly to their buyers? How can AIM take them for guns shipped to FFLs?

Is AIM or CMP a payments processor? Are they the same type of business as PayPal? NO so please stop trying to have a eureka moment I don't think you are equipped for it.

Is AIM a money transmitter with licenses to do that in all 43 states that requires them to have them? Is AIM subject to the laws and regulations of the state of California? does AIM take payments from banks and credit cards abroad?

Sometimes Gents you may need to think a bit past what is in front of your face.

Fine then. How does GearPay do it? Stop the bullshit and prove your statements.

Posted: 7/20/2008 1:13:53 PM EDT

[#24]

Quoted:

Great glad you are on the fast track. I am already there and have been for about 10 yrs now. I serviced high dollar clients globally. How is ship with signature confirmation confusing? If UPS or FEDEX does not follow through then THEY become the responsible party. Signature confirmation is a service you pay for they have to follow the rules.

So it does not matter what they do if it is sent signature confirmation you win. Period.

If you follow the terms you win why is that complicated? There is no screwing if PP users. sir if they follow the rules they keep their money. If they do not follow the rules then they have screwed themselves. You say a lot but you seem to miss the obvious.

I'm not trying to be a jerk and personally offend you. I hope you understand that. When you say "there is no screwing of paypal users", that simply isn't correct. Anytime a paypal topic comes up around here, and on various other boards I frequent, there's pages and pages of people saying they've been screwed by PP and will never do business with them. Regardless of who's right or wrong, that's a problem, and changes are in order.

Maybe the change in policy is simple, like the paypal shipping function automatically building in signature required, with huge blatant warnings if you try to avoid it. But when that many people say so loudly that Paypal's policies are screwed, and start taking their money elsewhere, then Paypal should listen.

Posted: 7/20/2008 1:14:30 PM EDT

[#25]

Quoted:
Simple solution:

Paypal should FORCE signature confirmation when you use their shipping checkout system.

Why don't they do this?

Is PayPal your mommy? Your Daddy? They tell you what the rules are you follow them or not. Lots of people decide to not take signature confirmation they have volume and low dollar sales. Why would PayPal FORCE you to do that? So a whole crop of people could accuse paypal of stealing money that way?

HOw fucking hard is it to pay the extra buck or whatever for signature confirmation? Seriously. Why have a solution to a problem that does not exist.

Posted: 7/20/2008 1:16:50 PM EDT

[#26]

Quoted:

Quoted:
Call the airline and see if they can do something?

Do you have the certificate number? I'd imagine that you could report it stolen to the airline, and the guy wouldn't know until he books his travel.

If you have a CC or bank account linked to your paypal account, then remove it immediately. If they come at you for it, then just notify the bureaus that it's a disputed account and paypal can go screw themselves. If you have a CC linked to the account and they charge it, then dispute the charge and get a replacement card with a different number.

I have credit cards and a checking account tied to my paypal account. I just tried to remove them and it wont let me saying I cant do so with a negative balance.

Request new credit card numbers and a new bank account number (citing fraud to those companies). That should solve your issue.

And when they contact PP and accuse them of fraud and PP shows the facts of the case and now the poster is accused of fraud claims? Holy shit

It is amazing how far some you will go to NOT follow the rule. Seriously think about it for a moment. Follow rule OR do all sorts of stupid shit and still lose....

Posted: 7/20/2008 1:19:58 PM EDT

[#27]

Quoted:

Quoted:
Something similar happened to me. I lost $500 to a crook and PayPal sent me to collections to recover the money. It's absolutely crooked and is one of many reasons to never do business with that douchebag anti-gun cocksucking company run by dirty commie assmunching motherfucking sons of bitches.

ETA: And stop trying to convince us it's not an anti gun company, Badshovelhead. It is an anti gun company. There is no reason for some of their behavior other than anti gun policy disguised as risk management. It is NOT all dictated by the credit card companies. Hell you don't even NEED to use a credit card to buy off of ebay so that's a bullshit theory right off the bat.

Are you saying that I am lying? Are you saying that Meg Whitman who gives millions to GOP causes and is a staunch conservative is an anti gun and a commie? WTF have you done for the GOP and conservative causes? Are you saying Peter Theil who is as conservative a man as it gets who founded PayPal is a commie?

In short you have no idea WTF you are talking about and you do a shitty job at expressing what little you do know.

What I'm saying is that while there may be gun friendly folks behind the company, their policies are anti gun. That's even worse than them being a bunch of liberals who believe in their own policies.

And in case you didn't catch it, my rant was over the frustration of them ripping me off. I don't really believe they fuck their own mothers either but I don't see you addressing that one.

There is absolutely no reason that they should treat gun owners the way they have. They could, if pinned down by credit card companies, let people sell gun accessories but not process CC payments for said accessories. What they do in reality is yank people's accounts if they suspect the purchases to be for gun accessories. I've had it happen. Are you calling me a liar?

You may not use the PayPal service for activities that:

<snip>

relate to sales of (a) narcotics, steroids, certain controlled substances or other products that present a risk to consumer safety, (b) drug paraphernalia, (c) items that encourage, promote, facilitate or instruct others to engage in illegal activity, (d) items that promote hate, violence, racial intolerance, or the financial exploitation of a crime, (e) items that are considered obscene, (f) items that infringe or violate any copyright, trademark, right of publicity or privacy or any other proprietary right under the laws of any jurisdiction, (g) certain sexually oriented materials or services, or (h) certain firearms, firearm parts or accessories, ammunition, weapons or knives

There is no reason at all that they need to completely block the sale of 'certain firearms accessories.' I'll take your statement that the credit card companies prohibit funding of the sales (though it would not explain why they permit them elsewhere) as truth as I do not think you are lying. However credit cards are not the only way to buy off of Ebay or fund a paypal account. There are guys who have been completely screwed over by this company the instant they discovered that a transaction was firearm-related.

Now, convince me that they're really a bunch of pro gun people. I really truly will have an open mind about this if you can provide proof that they're legally incapable of allowing somebody to sell 'certain firearms parts or accessories' or ammunition.' I have read your posts and have not yet been convinced but I'll await your reply with an open mind.

ETA; be back later.

Posted: 7/20/2008 1:20:11 PM EDT

[#28]

I hate to say it, but paypal is owned by EBay and EBay is anti-gun.

Posted: 7/20/2008 1:20:40 PM EDT

[#29]

Quoted:

Quoted:
Simple solution:

Paypal should FORCE signature confirmation when you use their shipping checkout system.

Why don't they do this?

Is PayPal your mommy? Your Daddy? They tell you what the rules are you follow them or not. Lots of people decide to not take signature confirmation they have volume and low dollar sales. Why would PayPal FORCE you to do that? So a whole crop of people could accuse paypal of stealing money that way?

HOw fucking hard is it to pay the extra buck or whatever for signature confirmation? Seriously. Why have a solution to a problem that does not exist.

Oh fuck that. Your attitude fucking SUCKS and makes me never want to use Paypal again. Paypal can and should build in the sig conf option into the delivery system. And if you decline, there should be warnings "Are you really REALLY fucking sure you don't want sig conf, cause it could fuck you in the ass later?"

Paypal doesn't do enough to warn sellers about the sig conf requirement. I never heard of it until this thread. It's obviously a problem that could be fixed based on all the problems out in Internet land, but they choose not to do all they could. At the least, there should be warnings (like the goddamn one that pops up when you want to use a CC for payment instead of your bank account). Doesn't surprise me if the company is full of arrogant asses like one of the posters here.

Posted: 7/20/2008 1:21:01 PM EDT

[#30]

Quoted:
PayPalsucks.com

I checked that out......I dunno..........looks like an eloborate front for that National Merchants bank card thingy

Posted: 7/20/2008 1:23:01 PM EDT

[#31]

Quoted:

Quoted:

Great glad you are on the fast track. I am already there and have been for about 10 yrs now. I serviced high dollar clients globally. How is ship with signature confirmation confusing? If UPS or FEDEX does not follow through then THEY become the responsible party. Signature confirmation is a service you pay for they have to follow the rules.

So it does not matter what they do if it is sent signature confirmation you win. Period.

If you follow the terms you win why is that complicated? There is no screwing if PP users. sir if they follow the rules they keep their money. If they do not follow the rules then they have screwed themselves. You say a lot but you seem to miss the obvious.

I'm not trying to be a jerk and personally offend you. I hope you understand that. When you say "there is no screwing of paypal users", that simply isn't correct. Anytime a paypal topic comes up around here, and on various other boards I frequent, there's pages and pages of people saying they've been screwed by PP and will never do business with them. Regardless of who's right or wrong, that's a problem, and changes are in order.

Maybe the change in policy is simple, like the paypal shipping function automatically building in signature required, with huge blatant warnings if you try to avoid it. But when that many people say so loudly that Paypal's policies are screwed, and start taking their money elsewhere, then Paypal should listen.

And there is 40 million dollars or more in successful revenue every quarter quarter in and quarter out. There is a .30 percent fraud loss rate on PP. What is factually more correct? those numbers or people who complain and ultimately it gets down to the fact they did not abide by the contract. For every post you read on the forums there is at least 1 million people not having problems.

Think about that. Someone is fucking up...

huge blatant warnings do not work people still send thousands of dollars to Nigeria and guess what? They blame every one else too. Sir I have been in this business at a high level for a long time. A hard truth is people refuse to take responsibility for their own actions. Especially when they'd have to admit they did something stupid. People still fall for phishing sites and they blame us. People send 150K to Germany for a Bus RV that normally costs 300K because they fall for scams. NO matter what we do people fail and complain and blame.

Guys still set up blind dates with supposedly hot women on Craig's list every day. People do stupid shit.

Posted: 7/20/2008 1:30:26 PM EDT

[#32]

Quoted:

And there is 40 million dollars or more in successful revenue every quarter quarter in and quarter out. There is a .30 percent fraud loss rate on PP. What is factually more correct? those numbers or people who complain and ultimately it gets down to the fact they did not abide by the contract. For every post you read on the forums there is at least 1 million people not having problems.

Think about that. Someone is fucking up...

huge blatant warnings do not work people still send thousands of dollars to Nigeria and guess what? They blame every one else too. Sir I have been in this business at a high level for a long time. A hard truth is people refuse to take responsibility for their own actions. Especially when they'd have to admit they did something stupid. People still fall for phishing sites and they blame us. People send 150K to Germany for a Bus RV that normally costs 300K because they fall for scams. NO matter what we do people fail and complain and blame.

Guys still set up blind dates with supposedly hot women on Craig's list every day. People do stupid shit.

I'd like to not participate in this thread much longer, because there seems to be a lot of personalities rubbing. I do have one question, though... I'd assume that the 0.3% fraud loss rate represents what Paypal loses out of it's pockets due to fraud. Just how much bigger is the loss incurred by sellers when huge amounts of money leave their bank account, and Paypal looks for a little bitty hole in the ToS to avoid doing the right thing like telling the OP's scammer that they're full of it? The 0.3% loss rate doesn't tell the entire story, if there's untold numbers of sellers like the OP getting hosed.

The simple matter is that if this is the level of support that an individual can expect when choosing to accept internet payments, then I'll stick to accepting nothing but a USPS MO for anything over $50. That's not the image that Paypal is in business to perpetuate, and they'd better change their tune before the policy manual becomes the sheet music for the Titanic's band.

Posted: 7/20/2008 1:39:40 PM EDT

[#33]

Quoted:
Whats the best way to get my money back or at least revenge?

I sold this airline ticket.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&ssPageName=STRK:MESOX:IT&item=180258145449

Winning bidder paid by paypal and I shipped the ticket when I got the money.

3 weeks later paypal opened an investigation wouldnt say why and then refunded him his money. So now my paypal account is negative 332 dollars They say it could have been fraud (not his credit card or some other dispute but wont give me details)

Paypal says there are three things a seller must do to get "seller protection" and that I did them all except signature confirmation. I wasnt aware i needed that and did do delivery confirmation plus insurance plus shipped it to paypal confirmed address.

So this guy has my ticket and his money back and I am out $332 what should I do?

It sounds like the buyer claimed that he didn't received the item. I would see if you can contact the airline and see if the ticket was used by the buyer.

Posted: 7/20/2008 1:41:11 PM EDT

[#34]

Quoted:
Oh fuck that. Your attitude fucking SUCKS and makes me never want to use Paypal again.

Huge +1 to that.

I've used paypal a lot over the years and never had any problems (because I'm ~~overly~~ cautious about following the rules). But your "the customer is always a dumbshit" attitude reflects very badly on the company. Your responses in this thread will make me think long and hard about ever using their services again.

Despite your years of servicing big-name clients all over the world, your customer relations skills are severely lacking. It's easy to dismiss whining on paypalsucks.com or from people like the OP, but your statements are much harder to ignore, coming from a paypal insider. Like it or not, you are representing paypal. Due to your utter lack of tact, you should refrain from being so defensive about paypal. It's actually doing more harm than good.

Posted: 7/20/2008 1:44:40 PM EDT

[#35]

Quoted:

Originally Posted By BadShovelhead]
Let's get this straight are you accusing me of making policies that screw or rip off people. If so please just answer yes. Are you suggesting that the company I am working for now has hired someone that would make policies for them that would screw people? Getting a bit personal now aren't you... so what about it?

So let's get this clear are you fucking accusing me of doing anything except being the single most stalwart advocate and worker that protects the money of customers on the internet?

He may not be accusing you, but I will. I bought an item (from a confirmed seller w/ decent feedback on ebay), paid via paypal (~$180). Never received the item. So I file the paypal "chargeback" and get $4 back. They say that the guy drained his acct, there's nothing they could do. Then, I was in the same situation as the OP (except I shipped it registered mail, since it was international), and got a -$300 balance for an item reported not delivered. So which is it? Can they recover the money or can't they? Did I get fucked both times? Because that's what it looks like. Or did your "buyer/seller protection" policy just not work?

In addition, both times, I informed local police, the FBI's cyber-crime group, etc. The first time, the local cops called me back saying PayPal wouldn't talk to them at all. WTF is up with that? Either you are blatantly lying or the cops did but I don't for a second believe the IC3.gov said that or any FBI group did. I helped the DOJ set up IC3 the freakin annual investigations budget globally is 5 million dollars. There are 23 people in the US alone and all they do is work with cops nothing else. No customers no meetings all they do is respond to LEO. So anyone saying PP won't talk to them is a goddamned liar. Period. So who lied here all these cops? I bet if you told me the PD station you went to we have a cop that does nothing but work with us. The only PD stations that don't have someone are tiny little towns and many of them do because we paid money to train them. So this is a lie period.

what else in your situation is lacking credibility. Go to the Trust and safety site on eBay go look at the BIG assed phone number and email address PP and eBay gives ONLY for cops. They give cops a way to contact them but just laugh and say nope not calling back? Please... BTW while you are there check back every month and read the little articles about the bad guys they catch with LEO. kinda hard if they don't talk to LEO right?

Also, why didn't PayPal have a phone support number listed on their website? Why did I have to go to paypalsucks.com to get their phone #? They did finally fix this. 4 years late. Holy shit this customer service number is old assed news. you often whine about 4 yr old issues? It was a cost issue companies reduce cost. CS costs lots of money. Stupid on their behalf but over 4 yrs ago they changed it. Move on.

How about an intelligent email support line that takes <3 days for a reply, and replies with something useful instead of a form letter that doesn't address the issue?

Also, if a "confirmed" address is needed to protect the seller/buyer, why not require people to confirm their address upon signing up? Would make things a whole lot simpler for all involved. But they couldn't do that, it might drive away the fraudsters, and thus their business. Also, if you want to sell international, confirmed addresses are few and far between, so it's nigh-on impossible to be covered. So why not have a functional way to confirm international addresses? Or is that too obvious an improvement?

And if they made everyone confirm 100000 people would say PP is spying on them. Send your package signature confirmation its not hard.

Bottom line: they're a shitty company to deal with. Defend them all you want, but their customer service is and has been nothing short of awful. If you can't stand the heat, choose your employer better next time. Who you serve reflects upon you. Poorly, in this case.

I am sorry you don't like them as I said before millions of people have great success with them. They do things right they follow the terms they agreed to. should PayPal make terms to suit those who can't follow the rules or those who do and are successful? You may hate them. 10s of millions of people don't.

Your sig line seems to be their modus operandi for how to deal with any customer complaints. Guess I know where they learned it.

My sig line is an inside joke from my days in intel after 8 yrs as an FO I went to intel in the Marine Corps. Sorry that we forgot to let you in on it. Grow up extract your head from your ass. Your CS complaints and phone numbers are old ass issues. Things are much different. Sorry not all companies are perfect out of the gate. Your fraud issue would have disappeared had you followed the terms. either take responsibility for your own actions or don't. I don't care either way.

Posted: 7/20/2008 1:45:16 PM EDT

[#36]

Without reading through the four pages...close that account and get a new email address to open another one.

F them

Posted: 7/20/2008 1:46:28 PM EDT

[#37]

Quoted:

Quoted:
No eBay/PayPal did not steal your money you failed to abide by the terms and conditions and sold something and what you have experienced is a cost of doing bad business.

Since you wrote the rules tell me what terms and conditions I failed to abide by? I try and do everything on the up and up.

You did not do signature/delivery confirmation. Seriously think about it. They'd last about a month if they didn't have that rule. But non delivery is the sellers fault cut and dry. you have to protect yourself.

Wrong I DID DO Delivery Confirmation!

Thats why I am so mad. I did do delivery confirmation and insurance as well. They are now saying becuase it was over 250 I needed Signature as well as delivery confirmation. If I would have known that I would have done it as well as it was only like 50 cents extra.

I shipped this thru PayPals own USPS shipping option. It should have told me that I needed signature confirmation as well as far as I am concerned

Posted: 7/20/2008 1:49:13 PM EDT

[#38]

Quoted:

My sig line is an inside joke from my days in intel after 8 yrs as an FO I went to intel in the Marine Corps. Sorry that we forgot to let you in on it. Grow up extract your head from your ass. Your CS complaints and phone numbers are old ass issues. Things are much different. Sorry not all companies are perfect out of the gate. Your fraud issue would have disappeared had you followed the terms. either take responsibility for your own actions or don't. I don't care either way.

I figured as much on the sig. It's an attitude thing though, and reflects poorly on you, not to mention your constant use of that philosophy in this thread.

And what policy didn't I follow as the buyer? Please point that out to me. I did what I was supposed to and got fucked. Point it out.

As for "old ass issues", they were issues. They negatively affected the company. PayPal has gotten better, but the CS *still* blows. The phone number isn't easy to find, and the first two times I needed it, it wasn't fucking there. That's a god damned problem. That's something that any competent person fixes immediately.

Not to mention, care to address the other issues?

And grow the fuck up your bad self.

Posted: 7/20/2008 1:51:53 PM EDT

[#39]

My first thought is to call the airline and explain the situation, and that some unknown person may have fraudulently purchased the ticket. I would be concerned that it was purchased by a terrorist.

That should fix the problem.

Posted: 7/20/2008 1:52:15 PM EDT

[#40]

Quoted:

Quoted:
Something similar happened to me. I lost $500 to a crook and PayPal sent me to collections to recover the money. It's absolutely crooked and is one of many reasons to never do business with that douchebag anti-gun cocksucking company run by dirty commie assmunching motherfucking sons of bitches.

ETA: And stop trying to convince us it's not an anti gun company, Badshovelhead. It is an anti gun company. There is no reason for some of their behavior other than anti gun policy disguised as risk management. It is NOT all dictated by the credit card companies. Hell you don't even NEED to use a credit card to buy off of ebay so that's a bullshit theory right off the bat.

Are you saying that I am lying? Are you saying that Meg Whitman who gives millions to GOP causes and is a staunch conservative is an anti gun and a commie? WTF have you done for the GOP and conservative causes? Are you saying Peter Theil who is as conservative a man as it gets who founded PayPal is a commie?

In short you have no idea WTF you are talking about and you do a shitty job at expressing what little you do know.

What I'm saying is that while there may be gun friendly folks behind the company, their policies are anti gun. That's even worse than them being a bunch of liberals who believe in their own policies.

And in case you didn't catch it, my rant was over the frustration of them ripping me off. I don't really believe they fuck their own mothers either but I don't see you addressing that one.

There is absolutely no reason that they should treat gun owners the way they have. They could, if pinned down by credit card companies, let people sell gun accessories but not process CC payments for said accessories. What they do in reality is yank people's accounts if they suspect the purchases to be for gun accessories. I've had it happen. Are you calling me a liar?

You may not use the PayPal service for activities that:

<snip>

relate to sales of (a) narcotics, steroids, certain controlled substances or other products that present a risk to consumer safety, (b) drug paraphernalia, (c) items that encourage, promote, facilitate or instruct others to engage in illegal activity, (d) items that promote hate, violence, racial intolerance, or the financial exploitation of a crime, (e) items that are considered obscene, (f) items that infringe or violate any copyright, trademark, right of publicity or privacy or any other proprietary right under the laws of any jurisdiction, (g) certain sexually oriented materials or services, or (h) certain firearms, firearm parts or accessories, ammunition, weapons or knives

There is no reason at all that they need to completely block the sale of 'certain firearms accessories.' I'll take your statement that the credit card companies prohibit funding of the sales (though it would not explain why they permit them elsewhere) as truth as I do not think you are lying. However credit cards are not the only way to buy off of Ebay or fund a paypal account. There are guys who have been completely screwed over by this company the instant they discovered that a transaction was firearm-related.

Now, convince me that they're really a bunch of pro gun people. I really truly will have an open mind about this if you can provide proof that they're legally incapable of allowing somebody to sell 'certain firearms parts or accessories' or ammunition.' I have read your posts and have not yet been convinced but I'll await your reply with an open mind.

ETA; be back later.

And what I am saying is that those rules were forced on us. Why is that something you cannot get? Why is it hard to comprehend the fact that gun revenues are amazingly good for us be were were not allowed? It really is just that simple.

Sir the parts and ammunition are in the same MCC code for one thing same story. Secondly we had people that could not just sell parts they'd sneak around the system and use us to pay for firearms outside the FFL system etc. They'd call it a part it was the whole damned gun. Someone even sent a gun to freakin UK. WE get fined and hammered and threatened to lose our license.

This is not proof but look at it this way. We had the ability to scan transactions for everything and anything. We did it for drugs, child porn bunch even human slave trade. We never EVER set it up to look for gun parts or guns.

I don't have to convince anyone. The rules were set up there is nothing we could do about it. we wanted revenue. I don't care if the revenue came from naked old lady pictures. If it is a safe legal transaction no one gave a shit. Except Mastercard, Visa, and Regulators. 25K per transaction we were fined per gun or gun part. 25K.

There is no upside for PP to stop selling guns there is no upside to not following their rules though. Sorry that is just a fact.

Posted: 7/20/2008 1:53:26 PM EDT

[#41]

Quoted:

Quoted:
No eBay/PayPal did not steal your money you failed to abide by the terms and conditions and sold something and what you have experienced is a cost of doing bad business.

Since you wrote the rules tell me what terms and conditions I failed to abide by? I try and do everything on the up and up.

You did not do signature/delivery confirmation. Seriously think about it. They'd last about a month if they didn't have that rule. But non delivery is the sellers fault cut and dry. you have to protect yourself.

Wrong I DID DO Delivery Confirmation!

Thats why I am so mad. I did do delivery confirmation and insurance as well. They are now saying becuase it was over 250 I needed Signature as well as delivery confirmation. If I would have known that I would have done it as well as it was only like 50 cents extra.

I shipped this thru PayPals own USPS shipping option. It should have told me that I needed signature confirmation as well as far as I am concerned

Since you did have confirmation and insurance, I would ask to speak to a manager/supervisor when speaking to Paypal. Don't get upset with 1st level phone support. Speak to their managers/supervisor and I'm sure someone will be able to help you to get your money back.

Posted: 7/20/2008 1:54:59 PM EDT

[#42]

Quoted:
Without reading through the four pages...close that account and get a new email address to open another one.

F them

Agreed, from your follow-up post, it sounds like you extracted the payment before paypal account, so you got the money. If you have a -332 balance in your account, time to abandon and walk away. I wouldn't waste any time pursueing it further, I seriously doubt PayPal is going to.

Posted: 7/20/2008 1:57:07 PM EDT

[#43]

I sold some reloading stuff on Ebay (legal at that time, now I'm not sure if that stuff is banned or not...) and sent it to the guy. He's probably a member here.

He did not pay for USPO tracking and after he received the items, he filed a complaint and Paypal sided with him and refunded his money. I was out the items, my auction fees, and all of my money. Never, ever, ship anything without shipping confirmation.

Posted: 7/20/2008 1:59:31 PM EDT

[#44]

Quoted:

Quoted:
Paypal is holding ~$1400 of my money right now. It's almost criminal what they can get away with. If you want some company with your misery you can go to paypalsucks.com and read where other people have been screwed too.

Consider yourself lucky that it's only on paper you got fucked. At least you have your money, right?

and what policy did you not follow? Probably the same ones the idiots on PPsucks didn't follow. There is not 1 person on that site that did what they were supposed to do that lost money.

PayPal is so freakin regulated it is not funny. They couldn't get away with half the shit people claim.

there are rules to being a merchant and accepting money and selling etc etc. If PayPal was breaking rules they'd be shut down. Jesus gents this is not rocket science. They can't just arbitrarily steal your money. The only way the ONLY way is if you screw up.

And if you had a merchant account with visa and Mastercard they'd do the same EXACT thing. There are rules to doing business. Just cause you put it in a box with postage doesn't mean you wipe away responsibility.

Badshovelhead,

I think that you should refrain from claiming that the loss of money is an ARFCOMer's fault just because they didn't follow every stupid little policy. Whas the failure to follow the policy the reason for the problem? We don't know. These folks, particularly the OP, deserve an explaination as to why these incidents occurred. The lack of info is appalling.

ETA: I also wanted to say I do appreciate your explainations of some of the issues. I think that hearing the perspective of the other side is very important.

Posted: 7/20/2008 2:02:27 PM EDT

[#45]

Quoted:

Quoted:

Great glad you are on the fast track. I am already there and have been for about 10 yrs now. I serviced high dollar clients globally. How is ship with signature confirmation confusing? If UPS or FEDEX does not follow through then THEY become the responsible party. Signature confirmation is a service you pay for they have to follow the rules.

So it does not matter what they do if it is sent signature confirmation you win. Period.

If you follow the terms you win why is that complicated? There is no screwing if PP users. sir if they follow the rules they keep their money. If they do not follow the rules then they have screwed themselves. You say a lot but you seem to miss the obvious.

I'm not trying to be a jerk and personally offend you. I hope you understand that. When you say "there is no screwing of paypal users", that simply isn't correct. Anytime a paypal topic comes up around here, and on various other boards I frequent, there's pages and pages of people saying they've been screwed by PP and will never do business with them. Regardless of who's right or wrong, that's a problem, and changes are in order.

Maybe the change in policy is simple, like the paypal shipping function automatically building in signature required, with huge blatant warnings if you try to avoid it. But when that many people say so loudly that Paypal's policies are screwed, and start taking their money elsewhere, then Paypal should listen.

Here's my theory: Paypal spends as much resources on fraud as it can without losing it's competitive pricing. They're willing to let some be scammed without recourse because investigating would not be worth the benefit.

Posted: 7/20/2008 2:02:50 PM EDT

[#46]

Quoted:

Quoted:

And there is 40 million dollars or more in successful revenue every quarter quarter in and quarter out. There is a .30 percent fraud loss rate on PP. What is factually more correct? those numbers or people who complain and ultimately it gets down to the fact they did not abide by the contract. For every post you read on the forums there is at least 1 million people not having problems.

Think about that. Someone is fucking up...

huge blatant warnings do not work people still send thousands of dollars to Nigeria and guess what? They blame every one else too. Sir I have been in this business at a high level for a long time. A hard truth is people refuse to take responsibility for their own actions. Especially when they'd have to admit they did something stupid. People still fall for phishing sites and they blame us. People send 150K to Germany for a Bus RV that normally costs 300K because they fall for scams. NO matter what we do people fail and complain and blame.

Guys still set up blind dates with supposedly hot women on Craig's list every day. People do stupid shit.

I'd like to not participate in this thread much longer, because there seems to be a lot of personalities rubbing. I do have one question, though... I'd assume that the 0.3% fraud loss rate represents what Paypal loses out of it's pockets due to fraud. Just how much bigger is the loss incurred by sellers when huge amounts of money leave their bank account, and Paypal looks for a little bitty hole in the ToS to avoid doing the right thing like telling the OP's scammer that they're full of it? The 0.3% loss rate doesn't tell the entire story, if there's untold numbers of sellers like the OP getting hosed.

The simple matter is that if this is the level of support that an individual can expect when choosing to accept internet payments, then I'll stick to accepting nothing but a USPS MO for anything over $50. That's not the image that Paypal is in business to perpetuate, and they'd better change their tune before the policy manual becomes the sheet music for the Titanic's band.

sir that is a business decision you'll have to make on your own. PayPal has rules. All companies have terms and conditions. The less contact they have with the customers face to face the more rules. Your company has TCs or user agreements or contracts.

All companies do risk assessments and look at the cost of doing business with and without rules. I would love to say the company is this deep pocketed benevolent company that will pay for everyone and no one has to lose. That would be great but it would be unreal and untenable.

PayPal has rules to protect itself and the customers that follow the rules. This sounds REALLY bad but fact is the bad guy that took the OPs ticket followed the rules. He won because he followed the rules.

Sir I invite you to speak to someone anyone that works with chargebacks for your company or other companies. I would invite you to look at the merchant association rules.

You guys can say I am blowing smoke up your ass all day. Research internet chargebacks. Look at what risk companies suggest are good best practices. Look at what companies have for their policies. You will see they are exactly like PP except their policies are on the seller side and take in to account the volume and cost of business.

Go read the white papers on CyberSource.com. I worked for them too. Go see what companies that are acquirers or processors for Hitachi, Sony, Playboy whatever have for chargeback policies.

The simple fact is the credit card companies own commerce. They work on behalf of their customers. If someone files a charge back there are enormous hurdles to overcome.

don't listen to me don't pay attention to what I say go research and see that the credit card companies make ALL the rules. other companies make rules to protect themselves within those rules. Because there are dishonest people out there.

PP is not the culprit. thank you for your tone I do try to be respectful to those who are respectful to me but I have been around the block too much to put up with BS from folks so I appreciate your conversation.

Posted: 7/20/2008 2:03:52 PM EDT

[#47]

Quoted:
I sold some reloading stuff on Ebay (legal at that time, now I'm not sure if that stuff is banned or not...) and sent it to the guy. He's probably a member here.

He did not pay for USPO tracking and after he received the items, he filed a complaint and Paypal sided with him and refunded his money. I was out the items, my auction fees, and all of my money. Never, ever, ship anything without shipping confirmation.

I am sorry you got ripped off. You are 100% correct. Again it sucks when good people get ripped off.

Posted: 7/20/2008 2:04:24 PM EDT

[#48]

Quoted:
PayPal has rules to protect itself and the customers that follow the rules. This sounds REALLY bad but fact is the bad guy that took the OPs ticket followed the rules. He won because he followed the rules.

Is this an admission that the rules aid scammers? Because that's what it looks like.

Posted: 7/20/2008 2:04:32 PM EDT

[#49]

Fuck Ebay/Paypal

Posted: 7/20/2008 2:06:01 PM EDT

[#50]

Quoted:

Quoted:

Great glad you are on the fast track. I am already there and have been for about 10 yrs now. I serviced high dollar clients globally. How is ship with signature confirmation confusing? If UPS or FEDEX does not follow through then THEY become the responsible party. Signature confirmation is a service you pay for they have to follow the rules.

So it does not matter what they do if it is sent signature confirmation you win. Period.

If you follow the terms you win why is that complicated? There is no screwing if PP users. sir if they follow the rules they keep their money. If they do not follow the rules then they have screwed themselves. You say a lot but you seem to miss the obvious.

I'm not trying to be a jerk and personally offend you. I hope you understand that. When you say "there is no screwing of paypal users", that simply isn't correct. Anytime a paypal topic comes up around here, and on various other boards I frequent, there's pages and pages of people saying they've been screwed by PP and will never do business with them. Regardless of who's right or wrong, that's a problem, and changes are in order.

Maybe the change in policy is simple, like the paypal shipping function automatically building in signature required, with huge blatant warnings if you try to avoid it. But when that many people say so loudly that Paypal's policies are screwed, and start taking their money elsewhere, then Paypal should listen.

Here's my theory: Paypal spends as much resources on fraud as it can without losing it's competitive pricing. They're willing to let some be scammed without recourse because investigating would not be worth the benefit.

sorry your theory is incorrect. I averaged about 200K miles a yr traveling. I bought 10s of thousands of computer gear for Romanian cops and helped lock up bad guys in Nigeria. we trained cops in every country we do business.

It is worth every penny to investigate fraud. Every single penny of millions and millions of dollars spent is worth it. Not 1 person in that company thinks otherwise.

[ARCHIVED THREAD] - Ebay/Paypal just stole 332 dollars from me (Page 2 of 3)

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