Quoted: Quoted: Officer could have just stepped aside. [:\] But I guess its just a good excuse to cap someone. Fenster. The driver could have just complied with the officers' instructions and pulled over. [:\] But I guess it's just a good excuse to try and kill a cop.

Just the same as SLOWLY moving the car was a good excuse to murder the driver, right?

Sorry, this guy may have been stupid and should deserve time in jail, but that cop should have stepped out of the way.  He killed a man for NOTHING.  That wasn't running him down as the article implies.  Rather it looks like a panic flight, where he doesn't want to hurt the cop, but he wants to get away from the situation.  

This driver did not appear to be aggressive and the article provides NOTHING on what the driver did wrong to start the pursuit.  If he was trying to run the cop down, I'd maybe say it was a good shooting, but he didn't.  In fact, that cops SHOULD be dead if the driver intended to hurt him.  The cop hesitated too much in shooting and if the driver wanted to, he would have run him down before the cop could have responded.

NOT a good shoot.  All circumstances considered, the cop could have moved, the guy could have fled after the window was attemped to be broken and being executed for nothing is shit in my book.  Flame away.

Driver = terminally stupid.  

That's gonna leave a mark.

If he hits the guy in the head AFTER he starts to drive into the cop it's okay.  If you hit the guy in the head just because he won't get out of the car.  It's bad.

Fuck the "badguy", Fuck the cop, and Fuck the pussies that got offended with my replies and called me names . LOL!

Its nothing more than commen sense on both ends that was lacking. They both could have offed each other for all I care.

And please spare me the "Oh he was just a poor cop doing his job" reply. Get a life or better yet, donate a blow job to your hero officers. Im sure it would make them appreciate your pathetic attempt at showing loyality to the thin blue line.


Fenster. not a [:K]

That's a pretty good "[i]Hey everyone, look at me[/i]!" attention whore post.

And fuck you too!

LOL!

God I love this board.

Fenster.

One more reason why we should have an age requirement on this board you love so much.  If you loved it so much, you wouldn't go screaming "Fuck you" like a newb in heat.  Get your point across intelligently.  Screaming your point across makes me think you're from DUh.

I wonder what caliber the cop was using? Does 9mm go through a windshield?

You know what, your absoultly right, I do get a lil loud sometimes. I APPOLIGIEZ TO ALL THAT GOT THERE FEELIES HURT!
Its all in good forum conversation, right ?
BTW, I am 24 does that make your age criteria ?


Fenster. from AZ and not DUh.

Ive seen nines go thrue windshiels.
But I am willing to bet it was a 40s&w, since that is the usual police caliber.



Fenster. the forensics expert.

I agree with you.
[uzi]

Allowing the man to flee would have started another pursuit that would place the general public in danger.

The police have no duty to retreat.

Part of the officer's technique was to place himself in front of the vehicle, "boxing" the bad guy in, requiring comliance or deadly force. The bad guy chose the deadly force.

Remember that, the bad guy chose the level of force. He could have simply exited the car and been arrested, but instead chose to get shot.

Only one name joke? Well I guess Christmas isn't coming after all!

Christmas is DEAD! Kawanza for everybody!

since when are law enforcement required to step aside?  Thought our job was to catch the bad guys, not let them go.  Best way for this idiot not to get shot was comply....a novel thought indeed.  Cop went home at the end of shift...bad guy dead...sounds like a good ending to the story.

Step aside? OC him?  Yeah that's good, now we have another car chase with a blind man at the wheel.  Don't give me that garbage about.."he was scared and just trying to get away from a bad situation".  It was a situation HE CREATED!  He chose to die. I say again, HE CHOSE TO DIE.  He could have steppedo out of the vehicle and been placed into handcuffs.  It is ridiculous to think otherwise.

The cop in the white, (first guy) is a Fucking moron. They never had to use deadly force. He left a open path for the car and stopped his cruiser out of the way. Why couldn't you simply box in the car? Also what where they doing looking at the guy. Why did it take so long to try to open the door. Break the dam window (and don't say they are super strong, I have broken new car windows before with my hand. The windshield now is another story.) and open it and pull his ass out. If he fights with you give him a shot of pepper. If he fights with you some more smack the shit out of him with your baton.

Any how the first cop on the scene put himself in a stupid ass situation and stayed stupid tell the end.

Don't get me wrong the driver was at fault as well but the cops a fucking moron and I would never want his help.

That dead guy should have pulled safely to the shoulder right away when he saw those flashing lights. Running from the man is never a good thing unless you have been falsely accused of something serious and you have to conceal your identity while trying to find the real killer to prove your innocent and...errr.. thats another thread entirely. That stare down at the intersection was a battle of will. I am sure the officer never imagined the BG would attempt to run him down, and I bet the BG never thought the cop would turn him into .40 swiss cheese. Never run from the five0, Never bring a car to a gunfight, and never underestimate someone that is fixing to lose their freedom.

Looked justified to me.

IBTL

I'm sorry but [ROFL]

Clean shoot. Guy was endangering lives in his high speed run, had no regard for law enfocement, his life or any one elses life. Perhaps it was a suicide by cop but it was justified. Thanks God he didn't run over some child or kill some other driver. Guy was a bit of an ecentric nutcase anyway before this event, he may have just snapped.

Do you know if it was high speed?  Don't tell me you believed the article!!  The article was COMPLETELY eroneous in its claim that he "accelerated and hit the officer."  We all know that he didn't "hit" the officer as someone else would think just by reading the article.

So after finding the article to have made the situation out to be worse than it actually was, do you want to reconsider the "high speed" claim by the cops?

By the level of "care" that the driver took in moving, rather than running down the officer, I'd say that he wasn't the huge public menace that you claim him to be.  

Sorry, I'm doubting EVERYTHING here, I want to see the whole chase.  This whole thing stinks like shit.

[url]gainesvillesun.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20031119/LOCAL/31119001[/url]

The 59-year-old Christmas, a registered nurse at the North Florida Evaluation and Treatment Center, died after he was shot multiple times.

Christmas was shot after he spent more than an hour racing his red Nissan 350Z around parts of northwest Gainesville and to and from Union County the morning of Sept. 30, authorities said.

Clocked at speeds of more than 130 mph, Christmas traveled from his home to a prison in Union County where he almost ran over employees and then drove back to Gainesville.

----------------------------------------------------

From the linked article

Over an hour? at speeds of more than 130? I think that indicates there is a serious problem with him continuing to be able to drive. If he had got away from the officers in the stop, and continued driving like he was, there would have been a crash, sooner or later. Want to make a bet whose fault that would be if the cops stopped him and he got away?

He also tried to run over some prison employees?

He's 59 years old? Obviously not the 17 yo takin' a spin in mom and dads car and getting freaky when he see the cops.

SPIKES would have helped. Of course that car has very low profile tires. Low profile tires=very strong sidewalls, which act like "run flats".

As far as a window punch, my company provides them. They provide a lot of stuff. It's often a question of having it when you need it. Because often times if you need it you need it NOW. Also if the provided punch gets put in a pocket, it will punch some stuff from there too. Which may not be the way you want to go.

I wonder of the officer in the navy blue uniform even had a baton on him.

I love the South Park police copter view of the incident. I think tho' that shows the 3 cars too close together. I think the first police car is 1/2-1 car lenght from the suspect vehicle and the second police car is about 12' from the suspect vehicle. The suspect vehicle could have easily reversed out of there, or went slightly to it's left. The driver did an SEVERE left to try to flee. I think looking at how tight that car turned, he might have been able to make a severe right and get out of there too.

[toilet]

Gee, I wonder what everyone would be saying had Christmas escaped, and T-boned some citizen with 4 kids in the car??   [rolleyes]

That last post by oly kinda puts it in perspective.

Have any of you ever been to Gainesville (which is in Alachua County) and/or driven from there to Union County?  You could hit 130 out on those back roads and not be nearly the public menace that you would be doing the same say in Downtown LA or Ft. Lauderdale or Miami.  You'd be more likely to T-bone a cow than you would an innocent family of 12 piled into the family truckster on their way to church.
There ain't shit between where he was going from and going to.  Did he do 130 in town?  I don't know, and neither do any of you.  It just says that he was clocked doing 130.

As I said, after the series of blunders, I agree that the cop had to shoot him.  I just happen to think that the officer and the deputy's bad decisions are responsible for putting the officer in the position where he had to shoot him.

All right, joke's over...bring back Sukebe.

I believe the stop takes place at 8:36 AM. Meaning that he was driving at high speeds since at least 7:36.

Does that area have schools? Because that would be the time school kids are getting picked up.

"Backroads" are often great, no other cars around etc. They are often less well maintained, hillier, curvier etc.

But I'm guessing that since he went From his home, to a prison, then to Gainesville, he was on a variety of roads, DURING MORNING RUSH HOUR, at high speeds. See how that would be bad?

Yes, you're guessing.  See, I lived there for 8 years, know the area very well.  The idea of "rush hour" in Gainesville is laughable.  You can drive across the entire county in any direction during "rush hour" and be there in 30 minutes.

You don't know me. You don't know me at all.

Posting before reading rest of thread: Look slike a clean shoot to me...

Assault with a deadly weapon (car) and attempted murder. Cops shot is self-defense, and did so long after I would have opened fire (the cop in the white shirt was practically running backwards when he finally opened fire).

Good guys 1. Idiots 0.

Looked like there was plenty of traffic where HE GOT SHOT. I guess since there isnt miles of traffic backed up, it's okiedoke to allow a felon to blow reds and have multiple police cars try to follow? You're right, that pursuit endangered no one....

My thought was why would you place yourself in front of a car?....It's not like you are actually gonna stop it!!........does'nt look like a very good tactical postion?...............No fast way out,can't back pedal,can't dive out of the way!!........Could this have ben done a differant way?................Does'nt matter does it ...Perp is Dead,  Officer GoodShot Goes home with a pat on the back!!!..........I learned fast doing LE Boarding in the CG..........leave yourself an exit route.........or 2!! and use em!!

I think your missing my point completely.

I'm saying all of you that take the side of giving the perp the benefit doubt over the cop follows the same line of logic that liberals take with terrorist.

Backward ass thinking is what I call it.

This guy had multiple opportunities to comply and chose not too.

He made a bad chose when a firearm and instructions were pointed his way by the law.

I'm a pretty compassionate guy, but I feel nothing for the perp who was shot here other then it must have hurt to get shot and then still had enough in you to drive a few hundred feet and then crash your Z.

[b] This seems to be a new tactic of police everywhere, place yourself in front of the vehicle and dare the asshole to run you over, if he bites and tries, they shoot the shit out of you. [/b]
Maybe it is good, maybe it isn't, I haven't decided yet ?????

Not missing the point at all MillerSHO , I think the Officer made bad choices AND the driver................Cop goes home......Not backwards at all ...But then I dont think like a Sheeple!!

Yes I am a sheep.

I don't think you even understand what your proposing.

If you do, you'd have to be a criminal.

To give that much benefit of the doubt to the criminal is way beyond my sheeple mindset.

Why dont officers shoot into the hoods of cars at first act of non compliance.  It seems like hitting the throttle body, carb or electrics would render the vehicle immobile....

I guess it isnt a good idea to because of surrounding people?

-HS

I am not a crimnal at all........Spent 10 yrs doing LE in the CG, I just don't think that bad tactics or procedures are reasons to excuse  what happened!!You blame the bad guy completely..I don't.............and Don't insinuate I am  a criminal.....slick..........You don't know me or my background.

If you're not going to read the whole exchange between oly and myself, please don't bother commenting.  I already touched on what you've said, and I don't feel like repeating myself.

I can't believe I've been demoted to "south park" graphics.

OK, south park photoshopping is one thing... south park 3ding is another.

I decided to get a better perspective of the incident, and layed all this out in 3ds5. Fortunately it wasn't hard to find the dimensions of the vehicles, and to match everything up.

It does appear that there is a little more room than I had initially thought.

IF (that's a big "if") the driver cut his wheels as hard as he could have... he could not have made the cut to the right side of the patrol car. As it stands, he probably left less than 6" of clearance between his nissan and the rear passenger side bumber of the patrol car.

He could have reversed, or drove a little more straight and went into oncoming traffic, or (as he did) pull a U-turn.

The officer was in a absolutely HORRIBLE spot.

And to boot... the driver rolled forward for half a second, then stopped for 2 seconds. AT THAT POINT, THE DUMBASS OFFICER SHOULD HAVE MOVED.

After he waited for 2 seconds after the initial "warning" roll, he continued the U-turn at a slow pace. This was NOT EVEN CLOSE to a quick move.

The relative slowness of his advance, coupled with the initial roll and pause makes me HIGHLY doubt the guy was trying to run down the officer.

If my calculations are right, the driver (while on video at least... which is when the shots are begenning to be fired) never hits 5 MPH... In the almost 8 seconds of movement.

The officer seems to attempt to push back on the car a couple times when it is moving, instead of stepping out of the way. Part way thru the roll, it (apparently) becomes too late for him to make an easy sidestep.

The shots are fired before the windshield section of the car leaves the view. You can actually see it if you look closely (pause).

I made a few rederings to scale of the incident. It looks a lot closer from the patrol cars perspective, but if you view the top perspective, you can get a better idea of how it all went down.

I'll post them here once I setup some kind of video server.

And no mocking my Southpark videos!

Would it be too bad if I stuck in the "Oh my God! You killed Kenny!!!" sound after the gunshots?

I still think both the officer and the driver screwed up royally. Altho I don't think the driver should have been killed... I don't feel any pity for him. And I wouldn't feel any pity for the officer, either, had he been killed (at least, had it been the result of his beind a moron and standing in front of the car the whole time).

On a side note, if you're already on the hood of a vehicle you deem to be "running you down", will shooting the driver really do any good?

I mean, come on... It's not like the movies where someone gets popped in the chest and instantly croaks. Even if they did get a good shot to the brain or spinal cord, the vehicle has momentum, and their being dead/paralized wouldn't help you out one bit.

Don't take that the wrong way... Just curious. Until I looked this video over, and read this post, I assumed I would shoot, too. But actually thinking about it... I don't think it'd really do any good at all, other than you'd have the satisfaction of kowing you're not the only one going to the hospital/coroners office that day.

I agree totally. The guy in the car didn't appear to move "slowly" forward to me. He lurched the car forward, in what looks (to me) like an attempt to intimidate the officer into backing way, opening an avenue of escape.

In
A) failing to follow the officer's instructions (which I imagine were probably pretty unmistakable), and
B) lurching his car forward in what can reasonably be perceived as an agressive motion, I'd have to say that the dumb bastard brought it on himself.

The vehicles top speed (while in the video) is 3.4 miles per hour before the shooting occurs. (or very close to it)

It covered roughly 30 feet in about 6 seconds...

I don't currently have any external source for hosting video, and I don't want to bring my connection to it's knees and host it on my computer. Anyone know of any freebie hosting sites that will let you upload 2 <700K vids?

[armchair quarterback]

1)  Cops' strategy wasn't great.  Seems like it would have been much better for the 2nd car to pin the suspect's vehicle against the first.  Trying to block the vehicle by standing (more or less) in front of it doesn't seem too clever, either.

2)  Suspect was a dumbass.  Disregarding the alleged high speed flight through populated areas, would a sane person really try to intimidate an LEO pointing a gun at them?

3)  Hard to tell if it was a good shoot or not.    Was anyone's life really at risk?  Did shooting the suspect reduce that risk...?  Disabling the driver of a moving vehicle in a populated area doesn't seem like a particularly safe move, unless the vehicle would have been even more dangerous under the control of the driver.

[/armchair quarterback]

Edutid bekuz i kant speel

remember to give up just as easy when **they** come for your firearms..... [peep]

Y'all know that I'm definitely in the libertarian, fewer laws, no war-on-whatever-concept, etc. camp.  

But we don't have enough context here to judge the shoot correctly.  

I will say though, that if the guy had been doing 130 as has been said, that it was justified.  There's every reason to believe that the driver would be willing to reach those speeds again to get away, and this time in a populated area.  It looks valid to me, based on the *very little* we know about the case.  

It was a bad place for the cops to stand, but they left themselves little option.  Guy's car was between them and the front cruiser.  It's unlikely Mr. Christmas would have stood still for the front officer to reposition his car, so they were kind of stuck with their lot.  I am a bit surprised that the second (camera) car didn't come up closer and physically box the Nissan in.  

The people at the light should have run it and gotten the flying hell out of Dodge.  Traffic wasn't all that tight that they were really stuck.  A particularly aware citizen (yeah, I know...) would have been quite useful, even if only driving away, flashing lights and waving people to stop before they got on scene.