Interesting.

I got rather "pissy" in a thread last week about the Social Security benefits I was NEVER going to see, even though I will have paid in HALF A MILLION FUCKING DOLLARS at retirement time, and everyone seemed to just say- "Oh well, too fucking bad for you". "Everybody knows Social Security won't be around so we should just kill it now so I don't have to pay into it and Fuck You very much...."

How are ANY federal pensions different-Military, Park Service, Judges, Mail Carriers.....? Hell, they don't even have a special "tax" that supports them! If I can't expect to be paid- with what I've paid in.....I don't have alot of sympathy. Having said that, when somebody signs up for a specific "deal".....that "deal" should be honored and I don't care who you are. If part of the consideration for doing something is "X"....then the parties, especially a Government better make damn sure they deliver on "x".

Any data on the percentage of small business owners that are military retirees?  The guaranteed pension income and health bennies seem like they're a great foundation if you're starting a business.

I mean any type of compensation that you receive from the government for nothing more than occupying space inside of our borders.  Tuition assistance, HUD assistance, bailouts, mortgage assistance, etc.  I do not care for WIC, but it is a little more understandable, and a little easier for me to swallow.

When I said welfare, I meant welfare.

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True for NG and Reserves, but AD get retirement pay when they retire.





 

Spend the majority of your physically-able lifetime doing a job that breaks your body, uses socialized healthcare and then leaves you with nothing at the end?

With an all-volunteer force, you're going to watch the senior enlisted ranks shrivel and die with a lack of incentive to remain in-service.

I'm interested in how many responses included the comparison to welfare programs.  

The government is willing to spend a lot of money in funding citizens who contribute very little (if anything), and then take aim at folks who volunteer to put up with a difficult lifestyle for a majority of their useful lives.


Next stop; dogs and cats living together, human sacrifice, mass hysteria.

Sounds like a fast track way to bring back the draft.

Of all the .gov employees who's pay and benefits we should be slashing, soldiers are pretty much at the bottom of the list.

hell the way the VA was run and denying benefits or just stalling until the vet dies was enough for me to realize the "promise" was already broken.

I served 9 years mostly reserve time and got out.   It was just one factor weighting on the scales of my decision making.  

Very few regrets.  I do miss some of the aspects of military service.

You know I initially disagreed with you but I then I realized they are very equivalent.

How am I any less deserving of my defined benefit (SS) after paying into for 25 years so far (btw Navy Gulf War I Vet)?

My Dad retired as an O-6 after 24 years in the Air Force and to some extent depends on the retirement income but even he recognizes when the well runs dry, it's over for everyone.

Face it, Federal and Military retirement plans are a line item in each years budget and are funded at the whim of Congress, there is not even the fig leaf of a "trust fund" to hide behind there is truly nothing put aside.

We're getting the idea that regardless of Adminstration, there is no political will to significantly change the current entitlement models.  Like it or not, this is the reality.  Could it change in five years?  Possibly, not not even remotely likely.

Not sustainable?  No, a country without a military is - NOT SUSTAINABLE.  choose your poison.

Remember the time line, and look over the pond.

The British are seriously suggesting scrapping their nuclear deterrent, are going to "pool" their carriers, and are in the process of turning their military into a glorified gendarmerie to preserve their welfare state.  They are just 30 years down the financial road further, if that, than us.

The simple fact is that there is NO POLITICAL WILL to change welfare, Medicare or SocSec.  That's been demonstrated in the last 7 years.  If we want to recapitalize the force, we're going to need to find a way to do it internally,  the DoD chunk of the GDP is not getting bigger. We can and proclaim its inherent unfairness, but that won't change the fact.  We, as the DoD are going to have have a sea-change in how we view operations and strategy from an economic level.  We need to look at how we put ships to sea, boots on the ground and planes in the air, all from a economic point-of-view that I don't think exists in the DoD, from my admittely narrow and low vantage point.

This may or may not be changing.  I believe that we are going to see in a decline of "Super Recipients", meaning those that live well beyond there years and absorb more Medicare and Social Security than they were supposed to.  Obesity and idleness may do it's share to help remedy some of our economic woes.





 

I respectfully disagree.  There is an entire political party dedicated to the idea that these poor, beneighted souls get their "fair share."  We are going to means-test SS down to the "Have you ever held a job" level before what I think you're suggesting will happen.

If retirement was moved back, or taken away I would get out.  I have 10 years in this October and I enjoy my job, but I haw a wife and I want a family.  They come first, I can make more per year in the civillian world as a senior reactor operator than the Navy will pay but I am happy to serve.  If the retirement carrot is removed I leave the Navy then gets to pay to bring in a new guy and pay for the following

Boot camp
6months Nuke ET "A" school
6 months nuclear power school
6 months prototype training

Now they get to send him to the fleet as a bend new nub where it takes 18 months to qualify Reactor Operator before he can do ANY maintenance.

The initial training investment ends up at almost 3 1/2 years when all the moving is taken into account and a bunch of guys wash out.

Removing any more benefits will severly deplete a bunch of fields where civilian companies are still anxious to take advantage of the .gov investment.

-mike

I am very pro military as I signed that dotted line myself.  However all pension programs are unsustainable these days and probably shouldn't have ever been started to the levels they are now anyway.  Certainly people who put their lives on the line to protect the masses, cops, FD, military all deserve our respect and a little more "cheese", as one person put it, however giving 20 years and expecting an additional 40+ years of pay and benefits is ridiculous IMO.  And that isn't even to mention the people who then "double dip" still working for the .gov or state.

I have far fewer issues with long-term, high cost pensions for servicemembers than I do for other jobs, mostly because pretty much any other job doesn't involve getting sent to some godforsaken shithole, eating cold crap for weeks on end, and getting shot at.

Who mentioned getting rid of the military?

Pay the military a TRUE hourly wage with overtime after a 40 hour work week, pay them wages comensurate with the federal .gov pay scale / civilian sector  equivalent pay for the job that they do, give them the same financial protections that a federal / state / local employee gets, unionize them, ensure that all federal / state / local safety regulations / requirements are met for their job, end the UCMJ, allow them to stay for 40+ years, end the officer / enlisted ranks / customs / formalities and then I'll think about changing the current retirement system.

Drop the retirement and see what kind of .mil you have.

So, we'd have the French military, and end up building a Foreign Legion of actual soldiers for actual warfighting.

You think there still wouldn't be a line out the door to be an aviator?

All of it. The leeches can starve, their pwecious wittle childwen right along with them if it came to cutting .mil retirement. See, the .mil folks EARNED what they're getting, the leeches earned NOTHING, to include food.

Oh, and I don't give two shits if this sounds cold. Tango Foxtrot Bravo.

The vast majority of those going into or already in the military have no plans to stay until retirement, the retirement package isn't even a concern to them.  I don't think anyone is saying they don't deserve some type of retirement, I know I don't think that.  

 
 

Plenty of leeches in the service, too.

I agree that they deserve their pay more than any other Government employee.  Sometimes, I wish I had stayed in and retired by now.



However it IS unsustainable, as is everything else the Government is doing.



It's interesting that you use the exact same arguments that the other big spenders use.



Fact:  We are not the "Richest Country in the World"      We are flat broke, and going deeper in the hole every single day.  
 

It's a very relevant sliding scale of the definition of "leech". Sure, by .mil standards there are leeches/REMFs/pogues/whatever. But by anyone's standards the welfare leeches are truly that. They have done NOTHING (just being alive qualifies you for nothing including food). At least the military "leech" is ACTIVELY DOING SOMETHING ON A DAILY BASIS.

Substitute "U.S. Congress" for "U.S. military", add in something about funding their endless travel and entertainment, and I'm pretty much with you.

There'd be a line out the exit, too.  The turnover rate, alone, would SERIOUSLY hamper Naval Aviation.  Requirements for manning would effectively increase... standards would be lowered... tactics, performance and hardware would suffer.

I "retired" in 1976 after 21 yrs. service.  The retirement pay I received was 1/2 of my "base" pay at the time of retirement.  I went back to college for about 18 mos. then I was offered a job making about three times what I made in the military.   8-5 Mon-Fri. with NO unpaid overtime.  I could quit anytime I wanted to, my employer wasn't going to tell me at 8am that I would be mobilizing by noon that day to be gone for as long as they needed me and I couldn't call my wife, he wouldn't send me away on assignment for a year or more if I didn't want to go, he couldn't put me in jail if I walked off the job and didn't return, I didn't have several extra duties to perform and still do my primary job.  

We were given "career" briefings regularly and told about the lifetime free medical care (this promise has already been broken) that would be there for my family until the kids turned 18 and the rest of our lives for me and my wife.
I signed on the line and lived up to my part and I damn well expect the government to do the same.
For those here who haven't served at all...........why?
Paying taxes to support our military is the easy part.  It's serving that's hard.

I have never met a private that was bent on retiring.  When reenlistment comes around they get very wishy-washy, it's a big decision.  They pretty much stay that way usually until mid-career, around -6 level.  
The vast majority of very successful leaders I have worked with never planned on staying in until retirement, they simply acted on a very strong sense of loyalty.

You would end up gutting the senior enlisted ranks, there would be absolutely no incentive to stay on and continue a punishing physical regimen and hardship abroad.  Especially with the skill-sets for management involved at the higher enlisted ranks.

It would very nearly resemble the early 1980's, you would have to build a base of experience again.

I don't know about you, but I don't want an immature, inexperienced force.

If the retirement package is dramatically changed for the worst, the armed forces of this country will resemble the Jews leaving Egypt.


Something else to add: if we are to remain an all-volunteer force, this would severely hamper any sort of recruiting effort.  None of the branches of service effected would be able to say they can guarantee anything.

Have you seen how many foreign nationals have and are serving in the US Military?
Let's not forget contractors either.

Fuck him.

Why anyone in the Military would think they are looked at as anything more then an expendable turd on a old boot by those in this administration is beyond me. These people know how you tend to vote and they don't give a rats ass about you, your benefits or anything else. Shaniqua on the other hand, well, she votes the "right" way and is more valuable to them.

That's just the facts.

So, how much does the lifetime welfare moochers and all their "free" medical benefits cost the Govt?

Don't tell that to my wife!



I toted an M-16 for five years and spent 23 years floating around in seven different Navy ships.  I was deployed out of home port over 70% of the time while assigned to a ship.  I put three of them through overhaul...not a fun time.  While I was gone, my wife ran our family and did a superb job of it too.  She and our kids sacrifice more than any American can imagine!  I earned every fargin penny of my meager "retainer".  And yes, as an officer, that's what it's called...not retirement.  Until I was declared NPQ due to service-related medical ailments that may very well kill me in the end, I was subject to immediate recall to active duty.



Congress mandated after WW II that the retirement age would be 20 years.  They did so for what were then very good reasons:  At the start of the war, our force was old and out of shape.  Many older, married and more cautious senior enlisted and officers were not up to the task ahead of them and were subsequently relieved, many in the field, for cause.  Congress wanted a young and fit force.  To get that, they set up the current retirement system under the then new "National Defense Act of 1947".  



Actually several years ago, career personnel were allowed to take the "15 year" early retirement.  Don't know if it is still available, but if it is, then I'd agree to that.  There are also "up or out" regs in place...so not all of the "undeserving" are allowed to stay in.  That said those that are deserving ought to be permitted to retire with a fat annuity.  They earned it.



Yes, we are living longer.  Yes, there are more of us now than ever before, and yes, the overall costs of paying our retirement annuities and keeping us alive with the Tricare system is nothing short of astronomical!  As one who year after year, duty station after duty station, ship after ship, through good times and shitty times, put his life out there for our country to take if necessary; I say NO!  Leave the system alone...in fact, MAKE IT BETTER for the troops!  Make it MORE attractive!



There is plenty of waste in government.  We ought not to be asking our service members and their families to sacrifice more.



 

I retired in 1996 after twenty years/one divorce in the USMC and have all my retirement, unlike MANY that ceded 50% to an ex spouse, due to legislation that made military members retirement vulnerable to spouses claims.  (Thanks Pat Schroeder, you fucking bitch + plus a bunch of fat assed Navy spouses in Norfolk).  

While the military member travels to places around the planet that suck, the aggrieved spouse living in rearendia is awarded 50% or retirement/retainer while sitting on their fat ass.

I make a six digit salary as a civ.  

My retired E-7 pay is around 20K.

If you think that is an enormous fortune/gift, tough shit.

Does it mean anything money wise to me?

I could survive without any of it, but like social security, which I've paid into since the age of fourteen, I plan on collecting it.

Not because I need it, but because I made a contract, just as the government did.  

Of course, if the government was held to the same standard as publicly traded corporations, all the ponzi schemes they hatch would land the politicians in jail.

It's a BENEFIT, not an ENTITLEMENT.

While I have all of my retirement, I know plenty of vets that don't have JACK SHIT to show for twenty years of service.

P.S.

I plan on living to 100, because it's a nice round number and  I like it.  

I hope that pisses you off, too.

Jim

And what percent of those are officers?

You forgot the part where you marry an 18 year old gold digger on your 99th birthday.

Count me in

"Unsustainable" ?  Hardly.  Only in the last few years has this concept of "unsustainable" been seriously talked about.  What bullshit.  

It wasn't mil retirement benefits that "broke the bank"-or even DOD spending in general.  Just look at spending priorities by Congress to figure that one out.  DOD spending-and all that it encompasses-has been the best investment this country has ever collectively spent money on.    

This civie will be right the fuck with ya ...

Free fucking medical? Ive been active duty for 16years and I pay $200.00 in medications a  month for my family that tricare wont cover.....We dont get 1/2 base pay on retirement, but your last high 3 which breaks down to like 45% of your base pay...the have changed the retirement once and medical twice since Ive been, in...they break there promises whenever it suits them....If I ran for congress for 6 years, I get a full retirement and medical for life.

Easy answer to that.
$400,000

After congress cuts federal civilian pay by 30-40 % and ends all GS, NSPS, etc. civilain pensions, including their own and for federal law enforcement, I'll talk about changing .mil retired pay.  Until then, go away.

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You'd think that with bullshit like this, we wouldn't even have to talk about term limits.  

This is the goverment you have chosen to serve.

And so it ends.....Funny how the names change but the results never do....

550 AD- Justinian names Germanus ruler of Gaul and marries him to Witigis' widow Mataswintha. Germanus travels to Italy, defeating a Slav invasion of the Balkans while en route, but then falls ill and dies before reaching Italy.

After the Isaurian garisson does not receive their pay, they open the gates of Rome to the Ostrogoths and the battered city switches hands again.

Totila invades Sicily, but Artabanes retakes the island.
Bessas besieges Petra in Lazica.

Most government pensions are extravagant and ridiculous in cost, that being said Id be going after the pensions of people who were only senators for 2 years who receive their pay for rest their life as opposed to the .mil types who get a pension after 20 years of ass on the line

Then let us start by erasing the Pensions of Congressmen , Senators, and the former Presidents first.