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Link Posted: 8/16/2004 6:35:16 PM EDT

Originally Posted By jblachly:

The MD is the terminal degree in the medical field.



That is correct. I'm looking at my diploma right now, and it doesn't say "We'll call you Doctor, but you still have to go to more school to really be one," and it doesn't say Master's in Medicine. It says Doctor of Medicine. 4 years of postgraduate study.

There are those holding PhD in addition to MD, but usually in a related field (eg biochemistry, neuroscience, etc.) I wear the same academic regalia, have a doctoral hood hanging in the other room, and do even get called Doctor from time to time. Anyone who says that an MD isn't a real doctor is welcome to review the graduation requirements for the degree. By the way, residents are doctors, so please don't ask one if they are a resident or a doctor.

...and no, I don't use Dr outside of a medical setting except in unusual situations. I think it's a bit presumptuous to try to get special treatment in restaurants, airlines, and other everyday situations. Is a physician, chemist, philosopher intrinsically a better person than an honest laborer ahead in the checkout line? Nope.

rant off.
Link Posted: 8/16/2004 6:40:13 PM EDT

Originally Posted By sleepdr:

Originally Posted By jblachly:

The MD is the terminal degree in the medical field.



That is correct. I'm looking at my diploma right now, and it doesn't say "We'll call you Doctor, but you still have to go to more school to really be one," and it doesn't say Master's in Medicine. It says Doctor of Medicine. 4 years of postgraduate study.

There are those holding PhD in addition to MD, but usually in a related field (eg biochemistry, neuroscience, etc.) I wear the same academic regalia, have a doctoral hood hanging in the other room, and do even get called Doctor from time to time. Anyone who says that an MD isn't a real doctor is welcome to review the graduation requirements for the degree. By the way, residents are doctors, so please don't ask one if they are a resident or a doctor.

...and no, I don't use Dr outside of a medical setting except in unusual situations. I think it's a bit presumptuous to try to get special treatment in restaurants, airlines, and other everyday situations. Is a physician, chemist, philosopher intrinsically a better person than an honest laborer ahead in the checkout line? Nope.

rant off.




WELL SAID!!!! The real doctors that I deal with don't act anything like these phony doctors that get their degrees off the internet. The phony ones deman you call them doctors. A few of the doctors I know would prefer you didn't out in public.
Link Posted: 8/16/2004 6:51:37 PM EDT
Somewhat related yet probably unrelated questions:


For military titles to stick, you must make it to retirement (20 years), right? Is there any difference between enlisted/NCO and officer ranks?
Link Posted: 8/16/2004 7:10:32 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/16/2004 7:11:36 PM EDT by Tortfeasor]
After reading a few of the initial posts - I don't know what is more sad - the haughty educated feeling the need to brag, or the jealous uneducated attempting to feel better by taking the educated down a notch.

What is my level of education? Doesn't matter - I am a fellow gun owner and defender of the 2d amendment - I hope that's all that matters to you guys.
Link Posted: 8/16/2004 7:29:59 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Tortfeasor:
After reading a few of the initial posts - I don't know what is more sad - the haughty educated feeling the need to brag,




That one is probably at least partially directed at me - perhaps deservedly.

I try not to be haughty and snobby about my education, but I DO take enormous pride in having completed my doctorate at the school I went to. To me, it's a lot like when I got my officer's commission - I felt like it was a great accomplishment, and will always feel very proud that I did it. (actually, getting my doctorate was harder than getting my commission).


(I know pride is a cardinal sin, but I figure God will let it slide since I'm not a Catholic )
Link Posted: 8/16/2004 7:33:58 PM EDT
After a little more checking i find that some schools such as Duke (see here www.law.duke.edu/internat/graduateDegrees.html) do offer the SJD, but only for international students and NOT as part of the regular program ending in the JD (Doctor of Laws) degree. If you read this page you see that the international studies LLM gets non american attorneys a foothold on US law and procedure. The SJD is a research degree in the field of international and comparative law only. These degrees are parallel to but not on th same track as the JD. In short we are back to the JD is a terminal degree conclusion.

Link Posted: 8/16/2004 8:32:39 PM EDT

A person who's earned a Ph.D. is absolutely and 100% correct to use the term "Dr." in any setting whatsoever. There's no "only-on-campus" usage for Ph.D.s They are a "Dr." everywhere all the time.

The average Ph.D. has had more formal training and education in their field than ANY other advanced degree including an M.D.

Four years Baccalorate, two-three years Masters, four-five years doctorate, two (minimum) or more years post-doctorate = one hell of a lot of schooling.

The trend in medical schools nowadays is to get the M.D. & Ph.D. together.




Originally Posted By jblachly:
What REALLY chaps my hide is those clowns with Ed. D's (education) that INSIST on being called "Doctor".

An Ed. D is a farce (comparatively speaking)

Sadly, I agree.

The Colleges of Education have only themselves to blame for the poor reputation of Ed.D.s

There a lot of very fine people with Ed.D.s, (God knows I work with enough of them) but it's pretty unanimous that among Ph.D.s, an Ed.D. is often looked at as being a bit "thin" as far as rigor and quality.

Link Posted: 8/17/2004 3:17:38 AM EDT
You are entitled to use any Title or Honor you have earned any way you want. If you have a doctorate, you can call yourself Doctor.

Using Military Rank does not require you complete 20 years, although normally only retirees use it it. And mostly in appropriate situations. A minor point is that usually only senior officers are normally addressed by rank after retirement in most situations. Navy Captains, Army Colonels, Admirals and Generals, etc. they earned it, why not. Probably takes a lot more work and danger than most Academic Honorifics, why not.

I've only insisted once that somebody address me by rank in a civilian situation, he was an idiot liberal with a Doctorate in some non-related field like Art History (so he might have been an expert there) who introduced himself as DR and tried very incorrectly to pontificate on some aspect of terrorism and the Mid-East. I them related my almost 30 years of background aand squelched his ass.
Link Posted: 8/19/2004 8:05:38 PM EDT

Interesting thread.


Originally Posted By PaDanby:
You are entitled to use any Title or Honor you have earned any way you want. If you have a doctorate, you can call yourself Doctor.



Agreed, PaDanby. Very concise.

It seems to me a lot of confusion is caused by the common use of the colloquialism "doctor" to refer to a physician. I refer to my oldest brother (MD) as a Family Practice Physician and to myself (PhD) as an Aerospace Engineer. Incidentally, when he got his MD, family friends began calling my oldest brother DrFirstName, and when I got my PhD, those same folks started calling me DrMark. The nicknames became frequently used online screen names for each of us.

Before this thread, I don't think I had thought about it, but I can't recall ever personally introducing myself using the "Dr." It's just first name, last name. It's often used professionally when others introduce me, but when it's not, it's no big deal.

Lastly, I don't know of any of my PhD colleagues who look down on others with less, or even little, formal education. People are people, and I don't assume any correlation between education and character/personality.


Link Posted: 8/19/2004 8:14:40 PM EDT
I put "Dr. fizassist" on my return address labels because I mostly use snail mail for dealing with assorted dipshits in corporate "customer service" departments and the like. I have the illusion that it helps....who knows?

fizassist, PhD
Link Posted: 8/19/2004 10:00:10 PM EDT

Originally Posted By The_Macallan:

The average Ph.D. has had more formal training and education in their field than ANY other advanced degree including an M.D.

Four years Baccalorate, two-three years Masters, four-five years doctorate, two (minimum) or more years post-doctorate = one hell of a lot of schooling.

The trend in medical schools nowadays is to get the M.D. & Ph.D. together.



I must respectfully disagree with your statements. Although I have a lot of respect for my PhD colleagues, it is simply not factually to state that "The average Ph.D. has had more formal training and education in their field than ANY other advanced degree including an M.D." A Ph.D. can be earned in less than five years. Also, the intensity of those post graduate years is SUBSTANTIALLY different. MDs, DOs, etc undergo a much more grueling coarse load than most PhD students. I have known and worked with many PhDs who worked (all of them as my memory serves) during their postgraduate years, a feat that is attempted by less than 5% of medical students. Four years of undergrad, four years of medical school, one year of internship and two to seven more years of residency and fellowships is a "hell of a lot of schooling."

As far as the trend of getting the MD and PhD together, I do not think that is a factual statement. Although the rate of MD/PhD students has been higher recently, this still represents a very small minority of physicians. The only real benefit of obtaining a dual doctorate is to obtain a more specialized education in the biomedical sciences (usually) for research and not patient care.

BTW, if you don't believe my opinions, ask a MD/PhD. I have many colleagues that have both and all of them will tell you that they enjoyed the time they spent obtaining the PhD because it gave them a vacation from medical school.

Link Posted: 8/19/2004 10:42:58 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/19/2004 10:43:53 PM EDT by DK-Prof]

Originally Posted By splanchnic:

Originally Posted By The_Macallan:

The average Ph.D. has had more formal training and education in their field than ANY other advanced degree including an M.D.

Four years Baccalorate, two-three years Masters, four-five years doctorate, two (minimum) or more years post-doctorate = one hell of a lot of schooling.

The trend in medical schools nowadays is to get the M.D. & Ph.D. together.



I must respectfully disagree with your statements. Although I have a lot of respect for my PhD colleagues, it is simply not factually to state that "The average Ph.D. has had more formal training and education in their field than ANY other advanced degree including an M.D." A Ph.D. can be earned in less than five years. Also, the intensity of those post graduate years is SUBSTANTIALLY different. MDs, DOs, etc undergo a much more grueling coarse load than most PhD students. I have known and worked with many PhDs who worked (all of them as my memory serves) during their postgraduate years, a feat that is attempted by less than 5% of medical students. Four years of undergrad, four years of medical school, one year of internship and two to seven more years of residency and fellowships is a "hell of a lot of schooling."

As far as the trend of getting the MD and PhD together, I do not think that is a factual statement. Although the rate of MD/PhD students has been higher recently, this still represents a very small minority of physicians. The only real benefit of obtaining a dual doctorate is to obtain a more specialized education in the biomedical sciences (usually) for research and not patient care.

BTW, if you don't believe my opinions, ask a MD/PhD. I have many colleagues that have both and all of them will tell you that they enjoyed the time they spent obtaining the PhD because it gave them a vacation from medical school.





I think it often becomes an "apples vs. oranges" thing to compare PhD to M.D.

While MOST M.D.'s may spend a lot of time in residency, that's not required for the M.D. - they've got that degree, and the right to be called "Doctor" when they graduate medical school.

So, technically, a Ph.D. which takes about 5 post-graduate years, DOES factually require more education than an M.D. which takes 4 post-graduate years.

Once the notion of internships and residency is invoked for M.D.s - the notion of post-doctoral positions and tenure-track can be invoked for Ph.D.s Just like an M.D. might spend a year in internship, and between two to seven years as a resident - a Ph.D. often spends a year or two as a post-doc, and then AT LEAST seven to ten years as an assistant professor before getting tenure. (note that residency for an M.D. is two to seven years, but tenure-track for a Ph.D. is at least seven years).

So when comparing degrees to degrees, the Ph.D. does usually take longer than the M.D., and when comparing post-graduate work before being condidered a "full" doctor or professor, the Ph.D. invariably takes longer.

Plus - I'd suggest that the people who are working WHILE they are getting their Ph.D.'s are not getting them from research institutions, nor are they being well trained. THere are plenty of shitty Ph.D. programs, jsut like there are plenty of "medical schools" in Mexico, India and the Caribbean.

Link Posted: 8/20/2004 5:20:00 AM EDT

Originally Posted By DK-Prof:
Plus - I'd suggest that the people who are working WHILE they are getting their Ph.D.'s are not getting them from research institutions, nor are they being well trained. THere are plenty of shitty Ph.D. programs, jsut like there are plenty of "medical schools" in Mexico, India and the Caribbean.



No kidding. I didn't know any fellow students who worked while getting their PhDs (even in other departments). I guess we all figured 60+ hour weeks were enough.
Link Posted: 8/20/2004 5:40:21 AM EDT

Originally Posted By fizassist:
I didn't know any fellow students who worked while getting their PhDs (even in other departments). I guess we all figured 60+ hour weeks were enough.



Same here.

Link Posted: 8/20/2004 5:57:57 AM EDT
I have a Master of Agriculture/Horticulture from TAMU. It is a terminal degree. It is a professional degree covering a specialized area of agriculture production with great emphasis on business. It's kinda like an MBA who not only can grow a crop, but also drive the tractor and rebuild the engine if need be. There is no Ph.D. in my field.

Ergo, please address me as Master Mahatma in the future.

When I worked in the Dean of Agriculture's office as a grad student, the secretaries referred to a PhD as the "Paper-Hanging Degree." Go into the office of virtually every PhD and you will see every certificate they ever received from perfect attendance in the third grade to the one acknowledging completing of their drunk-driving probation.
Link Posted: 8/20/2004 6:05:58 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Mahatma8Rice:
... Go into the office of virtually every PhD and you will see every certificate they ever received from perfect attendance in the third grade to the one acknowledging completing of their drunk-driving probation.



That's odd, because I (obviously) work aorund Ph.D.s every day, and I am not sure I can think of ANYONE at my university, or at those of my colelagues whom I've visted, that have their Ph.D. diploma displayed in their office - much less "every certificate they've ever received"

I'm sure there are SOME Ph.D.s that do this - but I've certainly never met any of them (and my entire social circle is pretyt much Ph.D.s.) so you appear to be engaged in extreme overgeneralization.


I do have to admit that I have my teaching awards displayed on a wall in my office, but that's mostly because I don't know where else to put them - and I thought that since the school went to the trouble of having plaques made, it's only fair for me to display them. But I also have a giant picture of a monkey and another one of vultures on my office walls, so I'm not sure what you can infer from the way I decorate my office.
Link Posted: 8/20/2004 6:45:53 AM EDT
The few Medical Doctors I know that have PhD's in fields such as bio-chemistry usually acquired those degrees first. I don't see how you could do both a PhD and MD program at the same time especially given the minimal two years post med school when you have to do your residency and in the case of my hospital at least are on call every third or fourth night for 36 hour stretches. The MD's that I have seen go back to school after getting their MD degree seem for the most part to go into JD programs versus PhD ones.
Link Posted: 8/20/2004 7:40:10 AM EDT
You're correct, they is no way somebody could do anything else in medical school other than study medicine. It's typically done between the "second" and "third" year of medical school. The PhD takes 2-3 additional years.

I appreciate everybodys input and civility. It does irritate me when I read insinuations that a PhD is more difficult to obtain than an MD. Medical school is extremely difficult. Most people I know study >100 hrs/week every week.

Again, I will not berate a PhD because I have a lot of respect for their education. It really is an apples and oranges thing.
Link Posted: 8/20/2004 7:47:57 AM EDT

Originally Posted By splanchnic:
It does irritate me when I read insinuations that a PhD is more difficult to obtain than an MD. Medical school is extremely difficult. Most people I know study >100 hrs/week every week.




Agree completely. I see a "real" Ph.D. and a "real" M.D. as being very comparable degrees - albeit for very different purposes and involving very different types of education. (I hope I wasn't insinuating that a PhD is MORE difficult - I was just commenting on the technical length of the formal degree education).

Ulitimately, anyone that looks down on someone else because of their own education is an asshole.
Link Posted: 8/20/2004 8:01:15 AM EDT
The "average" PhD canditate will only go through 9 years of training. 4 years as an undergraduate to earn the B.Sci or B.A. Degree, and 5 years to earn their PhD. The vast majority go straight into a PhD program, which earns them an MS or MA along the way.
Link Posted: 8/20/2004 8:29:50 AM EDT
I know the guy that owns the company I work for (part of it anyway) has a Doctorate degree in Engineering.
Now, everyone around here refers to him as Dr. but this is a professional environment where that term is not likely to be confused with a medical doctor. So all is good as far as I'm concerned.

It's out and about in everyday life that it starts to annoy me. "I'm a doctor" doesn't really MEAN I'm a (medical) Doctor, but the average Joe doesn't quite understand that and only serves to confuse the hordes of idiots already wandering the streets.

Now if they were to put PhD at the end of their name, fine. No confusion there. If your were a medical doctor it would be M.D. and I think most people know that. (except for the REALLY dense people amoung us who probably help us out more by NOT seeing an M.D.)


All that said, I really don't care if people say they are doctors or not. Just the ones that try to wear it as a "I'm better than you" type badge that piss me off. Those people are going to get a nice big boot in their ass because you most certainly are NOT better than me or anyone else for that matter. You simply have more formal education. Which translates into? Jack shit as far as honesty, integrity, loyalty, etc. All the measures of REAL people IMHO.
Link Posted: 8/20/2004 8:34:03 AM EDT
They call me Dr. Love....
Link Posted: 8/20/2004 8:44:28 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/20/2004 8:45:16 AM EDT by imposter]
Attorneys are esquires, not doctors.
Link Posted: 8/20/2004 8:53:21 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/20/2004 9:03:56 AM EDT by sleepdr]

Originally Posted By Zippy_The_Wonderdog:
They call me Dr. Love....



You've got the cure I'm thinking of...

(sorry)

Seems there's a consensus being reached, so I won't belabor the points, save to say that MDs who don't do residency are an extremely small minority. I know of many more PhD recipients who did not pursue additional training. Those 4-7 residency years aren't just study with an opportunity to work. It is intensive immersion in the field, and only recently has there been a rule limiting us to 80 hours per week (and that is still exceeded regularly). Work and study become one and the same.

A PhD who spends 6 more years studying astrophysics undoubtedly knows more about that than someone who just got his PhD. By the same token, at the conclusion of training, I'll know more about cardiac anesthesia and critical care than someone who just got his MD. The more specialized we become, the less direct comparison one can draw between degrees after attaining the terminal degrees. MDs in academic institutions must also spend much time working towards tenure and professorships alongside their PhD colleagues. In that way, they really are not as dissimilar as one would think.

I consider all upstanding citizens to be truly colleagues in life, however, and respect contributions made by someone regardless of formal academic training. The guys at the service center know more about fixing my car than I, and it would be ludicrous to somehow think I'm superior as a result of time spent buried in books. Expertise is far more than a paper hanging on the wall.



Link Posted: 8/20/2004 9:06:24 AM EDT

Originally Posted By bluedogsixty:
PhD's in a university setting are called Dr so and so but they are not allowed to be refer to themselves
as Dr outside the university setting. One of my Prof's told us that this last year. Only MD's are actually allowed to refer to themselves as Dr. Wierd huh?




Your Prof is an idiot. No such regulation. Ask him for a citation....

No offense meant to you for sharing....


Dr. Jeff (oops, I broke a rule...) Allen
Link Posted: 8/20/2004 9:10:07 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Miranthis:

Originally Posted By Spade:

Originally Posted By bluedogsixty:
PhD's in a university setting are called Dr so and so but they are not allowed to be refer to themselves
as Dr outside the university setting. One of my Prof's told us that this last year. Only MD's are actually allowed to refer to themselves as Dr. Wierd huh?



That Prof was wrong.

The PhD's and other terminal degrees are the only "real" academic doctors. It's a terminal degree that gets the title.

JD's aren't doctors. It's a professional degree, and your title I believe is "Counseler" (sp) or something along those lines. There's a PhD in justice, and that's the Doctor title.

{snip}
My dad's got a PhD in Chem, and gets real pickey about this stuff.



Actually, with my J.D. I wear the SAME academic regalia as your PhD dad. The only difference is that my degree color is purple (law) and my institusional colors are white blue and gold for my university. We have the same three sleeve stripes and two vertical chest stripes as any other doctoral graduate.

Sure there is a pecking order, but the term doctor is a large one that encompasses all the doctoral level graduates. In common usage the only doctors of Philosophy and the medical doctors (D.O., M.D., D.M.D etc. but not Pharm. D. interestingly) are referred to as "doctors" in their settings. THe original message above forgot to att the D.O. but they are 'real' doctors just as any M.D. is.

To get it straight as to law anyone who holds a J.D. has a Doctorate degree in law. This IS the terminal degree and the legal letters degrees (LL.B, and LL.D at least) have not been in use for almost a century in most parts of the country. BUT, you are not an Attorney and/or consellor at law until and unless you pass the bar in at least one state. You can go on to get a specialization post doctorate in a very few hyper technical areas of law and that is still called an LL.M, but it is not a terminal degree.

The PhD in Justice is not a "law" degree. It is a degree in the criminal justic arena.

Now there is some interesting history as to why american law schools stopped offering LL.B degrees and went to the J.D. I'll have to dig that out if I can find it.





What he said......
Link Posted: 8/20/2004 9:13:05 AM EDT

Originally Posted By De_Professor:

Originally Posted By Miranthis:

Originally Posted By Spade:

Originally Posted By bluedogsixty:
PhD's in a university setting are called Dr so and so but they are not allowed to be refer to themselves
as Dr outside the university setting. One of my Prof's told us that this last year. Only MD's are actually allowed to refer to themselves as Dr. Wierd huh?



That Prof was wrong.

The PhD's and other terminal degrees are the only "real" academic doctors. It's a terminal degree that gets the title.

JD's aren't doctors. It's a professional degree, and your title I believe is "Counseler" (sp) or something along those lines. There's a PhD in justice, and that's the Doctor title.

{snip}
My dad's got a PhD in Chem, and gets real pickey about this stuff.



Actually, with my J.D. I wear the SAME academic regalia as your PhD dad. The only difference is that my degree color is purple (law) and my institusional colors are white blue and gold for my university. We have the same three sleeve stripes and two vertical chest stripes as any other doctoral graduate.

Sure there is a pecking order, but the term doctor is a large one that encompasses all the doctoral level graduates. In common usage the only doctors of Philosophy and the medical doctors (D.O., M.D., D.M.D etc. but not Pharm. D. interestingly) are referred to as "doctors" in their settings. THe original message above forgot to att the D.O. but they are 'real' doctors just as any M.D. is.

To get it straight as to law anyone who holds a J.D. has a Doctorate degree in law. This IS the terminal degree and the legal letters degrees (LL.B, and LL.D at least) have not been in use for almost a century in most parts of the country. BUT, you are not an Attorney and/or consellor at law until and unless you pass the bar in at least one state. You can go on to get a specialization post doctorate in a very few hyper technical areas of law and that is still called an LL.M, but it is not a terminal degree.

The PhD in Justice is not a "law" degree. It is a degree in the criminal justic arena.

Now there is some interesting history as to why american law schools stopped offering LL.B degrees and went to the J.D. I'll have to dig that out if I can find it.





What he said......



While the JD degree holder wears the same robes as a PHD, the actual final terminal degree in law is the SJD, DOCTOR OF JURIDICAL SCIENCE.
Link Posted: 8/20/2004 9:43:31 AM EDT
After reading the entire thread:

It's an interesting discussion. Here's my story, we'll see if it helps:

My graduate and undergraduate students refer to me as Jeff or Dr. Allen -- I've really never cared. Seldom am I called Mr. Allen by students -- this is ussually corrected by other students. I can't think of a time in my life that I've introduced myself as Dr. Jeff Allen. I answer my office phone with "Jeff" and I'm know by my friends as Jeff. I'm introduced as Dr. Allen at appropriate times and I'm proud to be introduced in that manner.

A terminal degree in any field is a difficult life accomplishment. For the last ten years I have awarded PhDs and EdDs -- I don't think any of my students that have spent between 3.5 and 10 years earning their degree will tell you that it's an easy process. I think all proud of their accomplishments and express it in a variety of different ways. I give very careful consideration to the quality of doctorates that I award -- this is a certification of preparation.

I would be happy to send IM you my university web page links (not hard to find) and you can look at the quality of our doctoral programs, the process of earning a PhD, etc.

"Dr." is a hard term to understand and is made more difficult by the variety of Drs out in the world - many of these variation have been discussed. In my field, this is the terminal degree -- there is no more preparation -- You're done....go out into your field and direct it.

.02

Jeff
Link Posted: 8/20/2004 9:54:04 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/20/2004 9:54:25 AM EDT by DK-Prof]

Originally Posted By De_Professor:
After reading the entire thread:

It's an interesting discussion. Here's my story, we'll see if it helps:

My graduate and undergraduate students refer to me as Jeff or Dr. Allen -- I've really never cared. Seldom am I called Mr. Allen by students -- this is ussually corrected by other students. I can't think of a time in my life that I've introduced myself as Dr. Jeff Allen. I answer my office phone with "Jeff" and I'm know by my friends as Jeff. I'm introduced as Dr. Allen at appropriate times and I'm proud to be introduced in that manner.

A terminal degree in any field is a difficult life accomplishment. For the last ten years I have awarded PhDs and EdDs -- I don't think any of my students that have spent between 3.5 and 10 years earning their degree will tell you that it's an easy process. I think all proud of their accomplishments and express it in a variety of different ways. I give very careful consideration to the quality of doctorates that I award -- this is a certification of preparation.

I would be happy to send IM you my university web page links (not hard to find) and you can look at the quality of our doctoral programs, the process of earning a PhD, etc.

"Dr." is a hard term to understand and is made more difficult by the variety of Drs out in the world - many of these variation have been discussed. In my field, this is the terminal degree -- there is no more preparation -- You're done....go out into your field and direct it.

.02

Jeff



Does it irritate you when people that aren't "really" entitled to be called "Dr" - like chiropractors - insist on being called "Dr"?

I REALLY bugs me (even though I don't make anybody call me doctor - not even undergrads) - but maybe I'm just overly sensitive to it.
Link Posted: 8/20/2004 10:39:43 AM EDT

Originally Posted By DK-Prof:
Does it irritate you when people that aren't "really" entitled to be called "Dr" - like chiropractors - insist on being called "Dr"?



I don't know anything about chiropractors' degrees (they are not MDs?), but I find it irritating and innappropriate when those without a doctoral degree of any sort put "Dr" in front of their name. I don't lose sleep over it - it's more a reflection of their character than something that affects my life.

Link Posted: 8/20/2004 10:46:38 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Mahatma8Rice:
Go into the office of virtually every PhD and you will see every certificate they ever received from perfect attendance in the third grade to the one acknowledging completing of their drunk-driving probation.



That's called an "I love me" wall...


Originally Posted By DK-Prof:
That's odd, because I (obviously) work aorund Ph.D.s every day, and I am not sure I can think of ANYONE at my university, or at those of my colelagues whom I've visted, that have their Ph.D. diploma displayed in their office - much less "every certificate they've ever received"



Yeah, none of the PhDs where I work, or where I used to work, have their diplomas displayed. (Mine is still in a storage tube.) Diplomas tend to be displayed in dentist offices and the like - I guess that's the custom. The only certificate visible in my office is a work commendation, other than that it's pictures of the kids, books, parts from projects I've worked, a 50 BMG round, ...
Link Posted: 8/20/2004 10:51:42 AM EDT

Originally Posted By bluedogsixty:
PhD's in a university setting are called Dr so and so but they are not allowed to be refer to themselves
as Dr outside the university setting. One of my Prof's told us that this last year. Only MD's are actually allowed to refer to themselves as Dr. Wierd huh?



I agree, only MDs should use the Dr.
Link Posted: 8/20/2004 10:52:32 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/20/2004 10:54:20 AM EDT by magnum_99]
Juris Doctoris--Doctor of Laws--professional degree--lawyer--custom in the biz is attorney at law or counselor at law--NEVER referred to as a "doctor" in my experience. Law school professors are called "professor"--not doctor--entitled to the same level of respect as PhD

PhD--Doctor of _____ (insert whatever)--doctor of education, physics, chemistry, whatever--should be referred to as Dr. in an academic setting or appropriate on a business card in industry. Would seem "pretentious" if used in normal settings.

M.D.--medical doctor--sawbones, puts people back together--specialty fields include surgeon, psychiatrist, etc. Could be called doctor all the time I suppose, as that seems to the custom in America anyway. Still seems a bit pretentious to me to call a M.D. "doctor" out of the medical setting.

Doctor of Funk--George Clinton--Parlament/Funkadelic----will get your ass shakin and your feet movin--on call anytime a boom box is nearby--take two hits of "Atomic Dog" and call me in the morning
Link Posted: 8/20/2004 11:25:37 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Chaingun:
...only MDs should use the Dr.



Just curious... why?
Link Posted: 8/20/2004 11:30:22 AM EDT

Originally Posted By DrMark:

(snip)
Yeah, none of the PhDs where I work, or where I used to work, have their diplomas displayed. (Mine is still in a storage tube.) Diplomas tend to be displayed in dentist offices and the like - I guess that's the custom. The only certificate visible in my office is a work commendation, other than that it's pictures of the kids, books, parts from projects I've worked, a 50 BMG round, ...



Same here. Actually misplaced it for about 6 months after a move! Only visible thing in here is an FBI "Q" target with my best rapid-fire .45 string.
Link Posted: 8/20/2004 1:13:07 PM EDT

Originally Posted By magnum_99:
PhD--Doctor of Philosophy (insert whatever)--doctor of education, physics, chemistry, whatever--should be referred to as Dr. in an academic setting or appropriate on a business card in industry. Would seem "pretentious" if used in normal settings.



PhD = Doctor of Philosophy in ____________ (insert whatever).
Link Posted: 8/20/2004 1:15:58 PM EDT

Originally Posted By DK-Prof:

Originally Posted By Mahatma8Rice:
... Go into the office of virtually every PhD and you will see every certificate they ever received from perfect attendance in the third grade to the one acknowledging completing of their drunk-driving probation.



That's odd, because I (obviously) work aorund Ph.D.s every day, and I am not sure I can think of ANYONE at my university, or at those of my colelagues whom I've visted, that have their Ph.D. diploma displayed in their office - much less "every certificate they've ever received"



The only things I've seen in the offices of fellow PhDs (at University and in a National Lab) are pictures of their families and artwork from their kids (plus assorted scribblings and plots).
Link Posted: 8/20/2004 1:17:17 PM EDT

Originally Posted By DrMark:

Originally Posted By DK-Prof:
Does it irritate you when people that aren't "really" entitled to be called "Dr" - like chiropractors - insist on being called "Dr"?



I don't know anything about chiropractors' degrees (they are not MDs?), but I find it irritating and innappropriate when those without a doctoral degree of any sort put "Dr" in front of their name. I don't lose sleep over it - it's more a reflection of their character than something that affects my life.





SWEET JEEBUS, NO THEY'RE NOT!
Link Posted: 8/20/2004 1:22:09 PM EDT

Originally Posted By DK-Prof:

Plus - I'd suggest that the people who are working WHILE they are getting their Ph.D.'s are not getting them from research institutions, nor are they being well trained. THere are plenty of shitty Ph.D. programs, jsut like there are plenty of "medical schools" in Mexico, India and the Caribbean.







80% - 90% of our PhD students work and work on their doctorate. We are a nationally accredited, research institution, not a shitty program, and our graduates are very well trained in their field


Link Posted: 8/20/2004 1:22:09 PM EDT

Originally Posted By magnum_99:
Juris Doctoris--Doctor of Laws--professional degree--lawyer--custom in the biz is attorney at law or counselor at law--NEVER referred to as a "doctor" in my experience. Law school professors are called "professor"--not doctor--entitled to the same level of respect as PhD

PhD--Doctor of _____ (insert whatever)--doctor of education, physics, chemistry, whatever--should be referred to as Dr. in an academic setting or appropriate on a business card in industry. Would seem "pretentious" if used in normal settings.

M.D.--medical doctor--sawbones, puts people back together--specialty fields include surgeon, psychiatrist, etc. Could be called doctor all the time I suppose, as that seems to the custom in America anyway. Still seems a bit pretentious to me to call a M.D. "doctor" out of the medical setting.

Doctor of Funk--George Clinton--Parlament/Funkadelic----will get your ass shakin and your feet movin--on call anytime a boom box is nearby--take two hits of "Atomic Dog" and call me in the morning




The reason that physicians (and I guess surgeons too ) are traditionally called "Doctor" outside the medical setting, where as a PhD might not be outside his work setting , is because people expect "Doctors" to be on call if you will at all times in all places. Always a doctor.

My dad and his partner and I were all flying out to Wyoming for a backpacking trip when an old lady collapsed on the plane. Guess who took care of her? Guess who takes care of people in situations in public like that? Not the Chiropractor or arrogant professor (pardon the stereotype) who corrected the last person who called him "Mister"...

Merely my thoughts on the tradition of referring to MDs as "Doctor" in all settings (applies in European cultures and languages, as well, at least in my experience)
Link Posted: 8/20/2004 1:27:36 PM EDT

Originally Posted By DK-Prof:

Originally Posted By De_Professor:
After reading the entire thread:

It's an interesting discussion. Here's my story, we'll see if it helps:

My graduate and undergraduate students refer to me as Jeff or Dr. Allen -- I've really never cared. Seldom am I called Mr. Allen by students -- this is ussually corrected by other students. I can't think of a time in my life that I've introduced myself as Dr. Jeff Allen. I answer my office phone with "Jeff" and I'm know by my friends as Jeff. I'm introduced as Dr. Allen at appropriate times and I'm proud to be introduced in that manner.

A terminal degree in any field is a difficult life accomplishment. For the last ten years I have awarded PhDs and EdDs -- I don't think any of my students that have spent between 3.5 and 10 years earning their degree will tell you that it's an easy process. I think all proud of their accomplishments and express it in a variety of different ways. I give very careful consideration to the quality of doctorates that I award -- this is a certification of preparation.

I would be happy to send IM you my university web page links (not hard to find) and you can look at the quality of our doctoral programs, the process of earning a PhD, etc.

"Dr." is a hard term to understand and is made more difficult by the variety of Drs out in the world - many of these variation have been discussed. In my field, this is the terminal degree -- there is no more preparation -- You're done....go out into your field and direct it.

.02

Jeff



Does it irritate you when people that aren't "really" entitled to be called "Dr" - like chiropractors - insist on being called "Dr"?

I REALLY bugs me (even though I don't make anybody call me doctor - not even undergrads) - but maybe I'm just overly sensitive to it.



I really don't care one way or another. The person makes the difference -- the degree doesn't.
Link Posted: 8/20/2004 1:36:31 PM EDT

Originally Posted By FLAL1A:
I think it's kind of weaselly for non-MDs to call themselves "doctor." I mean, if somebody says "I'm dying! I need a doctor" and a bystander says "Hey! That guy over there introduced himself as Dr. Williams! I'll get him!" and Williams is a PhD in Medieval Spanish Literature, the dying guy is going to be pretty disappointed.

I can see calling a professor "Dr." in an academic setting, but not otherwise. I suppose calling a psychologist "Dr." makes it easier to spill one's guts. IIRC in Germany everybody with a doctorate is called "doctor," but here it smells to me like pathetic self-aggrandizement. I don't do it, though I guess I'm as entitled to do so as a psychologist or professor.



As a lawdog what do you think of putting esq. behind your name? My cousin did this.
Link Posted: 8/20/2004 2:14:38 PM EDT

Originally Posted By De_Professor:

Originally Posted By DK-Prof:

Plus - I'd suggest that the people who are working WHILE they are getting their Ph.D.'s are not getting them from research institutions, nor are they being well trained. THere are plenty of shitty Ph.D. programs, jsut like there are plenty of "medical schools" in Mexico, India and the Caribbean.







80% - 90% of our PhD students work and work on their doctorate. We are a nationally accredited, research institution, not a shitty program, and our graduates are very well trained in their field






Really? Holy crap - they must be superhuman!

Actually, I guess I was somewhat unclear - in that I meant that the doctoral programs I am familiar with are full-time programs. Often, in the 4th or 5th years, students DO teach classes, which I guess could easily be considered work.

I thought the original poster was talking about people doing PhD's - but having full-time jobs while they were doing it.

For the first two years of my doctoral studies, I don't think I slept very much at all - and always seemed to be catching up on the enormous workload. After the first two years, and comprehensive exams, students do have more autnomy, but are generally still as busy. The only reason I taught classes (i.e. "worked" while doing my doctorate was that it was a requirement for getting the fellowships, and it was useful experience).


Things might be different in different fields, so I apologize for over-generalizing.
Link Posted: 8/20/2004 2:16:47 PM EDT

Originally Posted By jblachly:

Originally Posted By magnum_99:
Juris Doctoris--Doctor of Laws--professional degree--lawyer--custom in the biz is attorney at law or counselor at law--NEVER referred to as a "doctor" in my experience. Law school professors are called "professor"--not doctor--entitled to the same level of respect as PhD

PhD--Doctor of _____ (insert whatever)--doctor of education, physics, chemistry, whatever--should be referred to as Dr. in an academic setting or appropriate on a business card in industry. Would seem "pretentious" if used in normal settings.

M.D.--medical doctor--sawbones, puts people back together--specialty fields include surgeon, psychiatrist, etc. Could be called doctor all the time I suppose, as that seems to the custom in America anyway. Still seems a bit pretentious to me to call a M.D. "doctor" out of the medical setting.

Doctor of Funk--George Clinton--Parlament/Funkadelic----will get your ass shakin and your feet movin--on call anytime a boom box is nearby--take two hits of "Atomic Dog" and call me in the morning




The reason that physicians (and I guess surgeons too ) are traditionally called "Doctor" outside the medical setting, where as a PhD might not be outside his work setting , is because people expect "Doctors" to be on call if you will at all times in all places. Always a doctor.

My dad and his partner and I were all flying out to Wyoming for a backpacking trip when an old lady collapsed on the plane. Guess who took care of her? Guess who takes care of people in situations in public like that? Not the Chiropractor or arrogant professor (pardon the stereotype) who corrected the last person who called him "Mister"...

Merely my thoughts on the tradition of referring to MDs as "Doctor" in all settings (applies in European cultures and languages, as well, at least in my experience)



I'll buy that.
Link Posted: 8/20/2004 2:35:03 PM EDT

Originally Posted By FLAL1A:
I think it's kind of weaselly for non-MDs to call themselves "doctor." I mean, if somebody says "I'm dying! I need a doctor" and a bystander says "Hey! That guy over there introduced himself as Dr. Williams! I'll get him!" and Williams is a PhD in Medieval Spanish Literature, the dying guy is going to be pretty disappointed.



So what? It's Dr. William's fault that some bystander made an incorrect assumption??

So I shouldn't use the title that I have earned, because people doesn't understand the distinction between a doctor of philosophy and a doctor of medicine? I guess Condeleeza Rice and Henry Kissinger are huge weasels, all right It's very unambiguous - the title "doctor" has a specific meaning, namely that you have earned a doctorate - it might be in philosophy, or it might be in medicine (and it might be in some other stuff). That's where the word comes from.

Saying that someone would be a "weasel" for using a title they have EARNED just because other people might not properly understand what it means is silly. It's like saying that my friend who is a colonel in the army shouldn't use his title because people might ask him for fried chicken?


That said, I almost NEVER use my title of "Dr" - and I NEVER have students address me as such.



I can see calling a professor "Dr." in an academic setting, but not otherwise. I suppose calling a psychologist "Dr." makes it easier to spill one's guts. IIRC in Germany everybody with a doctorate is called "doctor," but here it smells to me like pathetic self-aggrandizement. I don't do it, though I guess I'm as entitled to do so as a psychologist or professor.



I don't understand where this "psychologist" or "professor" stuff that you're talking about is coming from?? Those are occupations or job descriptions, NOT degrees.

People can be professors at universities without having doctorates (many adjunct professors are expriences professional, and often have master's degrees, not doctorates). Professor does not imply a doctorate, and just being a professor does not entitle anyone to be called "doctor" - only hacing earned a doctoral degree does. By the same token, people can be "psychologists" and not have a doctorate. Many therapists have master's degrees, not doctorates.

While I don't really use my "Dr" title at all, I find it ridiculous to suggest that it is "pathetic self-aggrandizement" for people to take pride in their accomplishments. That's like saying it's pathetic self-aggrandizing for soldiers to wear their uniforms off-base.

Link Posted: 8/20/2004 4:57:29 PM EDT

Originally Posted By DK-Prof:

Originally Posted By FLAL1A:
I think it's kind of weaselly for non-MDs to call themselves "doctor." I mean, if somebody says "I'm dying! I need a doctor" and a bystander says "Hey! That guy over there introduced himself as Dr. Williams! I'll get him!" and Williams is a PhD in Medieval Spanish Literature, the dying guy is going to be pretty disappointed.


So what? It's Dr. William's fault that some bystander made an incorrect assumption??



Good point. As I said earlier...


Originally Posted By DrMark:
It seems to me a lot of confusion is caused by the common use of the colloquialism "doctor" to refer to a physician.




Originally Posted By DK-Prof:
It's like saying that my friend who is a colonel in the army shouldn't use his title because people might ask him for fried chicken?



Good line.

[Homer] Mmmm... fried chicken. [/Homer]

Link Posted: 8/20/2004 8:21:36 PM EDT

Originally Posted By DK-Prof:

Originally Posted By De_Professor:

Originally Posted By DK-Prof:

Plus - I'd suggest that the people who are working WHILE they are getting their Ph.D.'s are not getting them from research institutions, nor are they being well trained. THere are plenty of shitty Ph.D. programs, jsut like there are plenty of "medical schools" in Mexico, India and the Caribbean.







80% - 90% of our PhD students work and work on their doctorate. We are a nationally accredited, research institution, not a shitty program, and our graduates are very well trained in their field






Really? Holy crap - they must be superhuman!

Actually, I guess I was somewhat unclear - in that I meant that the doctoral programs I am familiar with are full-time programs. Often, in the 4th or 5th years, students DO teach classes, which I guess could easily be considered work.

I thought the original poster was talking about people doing PhD's - but having full-time jobs while they were doing it.

For the first two years of my doctoral studies, I don't think I slept very much at all - and always seemed to be catching up on the enormous workload. After the first two years, and comprehensive exams, students do have more autnomy, but are generally still as busy. The only reason I taught classes (i.e. "worked" while doing my doctorate was that it was a requirement for getting the fellowships, and it was useful experience).


Things might be different in different fields, so I apologize for over-generalizing.



No problemo. Most of my students are 40 - 50 years old, work full-time and take from 5-8 years to complete their degrees - our classes are offered at night, on the weekends, and with internet in some cases. 4 - 6 years is common for full time students.

Yep, sanity level has to be tremendous, they do have to have two semesters of traditional residency -- our program requires a minimum number of years of experience in their field before entering the doctoral program - we see very few students that have traveled straight through.

I was a full time student and I finished mine at Penn State in three years. Needless to say that I didn't sleep much.

Jeff
Link Posted: 8/20/2004 9:14:47 PM EDT

Originally Posted By FLAL1A:
I think it's kind of weaselly for non-MDs to call themselves "doctor."

Umm... I don't call myself "Doctor". My diploma says "Doctor of Philosophy".

I wasn't the one who started calling me "Doctor" - it was the state of Arizona that did. THEY conferred that title onto me.

And actually I think it's kind of ignorant to walk around as a grown citizen thinking that the only people who are called "Doctors" are those who wear stethoscopes.

Link Posted: 8/20/2004 9:41:24 PM EDT

Originally Posted By De_Professor:

Originally Posted By bluedogsixty:
PhD's in a university setting are called Dr so and so but they are not allowed to be refer to themselves
as Dr outside the university setting. One of my Prof's told us that this last year. Only MD's are actually allowed to refer to themselves as Dr. Wierd huh?




Your Prof is an idiot. No such regulation. Ask him for a citation....

No offense meant to you for sharing....


Dr. Jeff (oops, I broke a rule...) Allen



No offense taken. I was approached when I entered the masters program about the possibility of
sticking around for as a PhD student. I declined as I have spent the last 14 yrs in field of
semiconductors as an EE and then manager. I changed fields after my company downsized
our group in '01. I dedided to go in the Med prof. I have completed my first year in the
grad program for occupational therapy. I can't stick around for any more training. Got
to get back to work and make a living. I am enjoying the experience as a non-traditional/older
student. This is a good thread. Very informative and civil for a change.

bdog
Link Posted: 8/20/2004 9:44:50 PM EDT

Originally Posted By fizassist:

Originally Posted By magnum_99:
PhD--Doctor of Philosophy (insert whatever)--doctor of education, physics, chemistry, whatever--should be referred to as Dr. in an academic setting or appropriate on a business card in industry. Would seem "pretentious" if used in normal settings.



PhD = Doctor of Philosophy in ____________ (insert whatever).




SHIT! That's what I meant.
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