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Posted: 2/18/2016 9:40:17 PM EDT
[#1]
Protestants need no intercessor to talk to God.
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Posted: 2/18/2016 9:40:54 PM EDT
[#2]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Does a bear pope in the woods? Quote HistoryQuoted:
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"pope thread" Does a bear pope in the woods? No, but the bear is Catholic |
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Posted: 2/18/2016 9:42:51 PM EDT
[#3]
Nope! Just a personal relationship with Jesus Christ! Don't need no man to pray my way into heaven. Jesus paid the price and I can now go Directly to the thrown room of my Lord and Savior
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Posted: 2/18/2016 9:43:21 PM EDT
[#4]
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No, and I probably don't give a crap who he is, because this sounds like it's going to be a complete non-sequitor. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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If someone claims to have a telephone to God, I claim that he belongs in a nuthouse. I'm a Christian, but I don't need a human spiritual power over me. Not to knock genuinely good people who want to become "shepherds" to help people who want help, but I draw the line at anyone claiming that they speak for God. and the Pope does not claim that.... Well, he "leads" the catholic denomination, right? yes, he does. Do you know who Dr Ronnie Floyd is? No, and I probably don't give a crap who he is, because this sounds like it's going to be a complete non-sequitor. he is the President of the Southern Baptist Convention. He is their leader. I do not hate him. See how that works? |
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Posted: 2/18/2016 9:43:49 PM EDT
[#5]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Protestants need no intercessor to talk to God. neither do Catholics. |
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Posted: 2/18/2016 9:45:16 PM EDT
[#6]
Quote HistoryQuoted: neither do Catholics. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Protestants need no intercessor to talk to God. neither do Catholics.  |
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Posted: 2/18/2016 9:46:58 PM EDT
[#7]
Meh, Fuck the pope
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Posted: 2/18/2016 9:51:00 PM EDT
[#8]
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Meh, Fuck the pope awesome! I am Catholic. I can't stand the guy. He is obviously a commie SJW hypocrite. The walls around the Vatican were built between 846 and 852 AD to stop raids by Saracen (Muslim) pirates. I don't agree with anything he says politically. Hows that? |
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Posted: 2/18/2016 9:51:47 PM EDT
[#9]
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If you believe in Jesus and his teachings then the answer is yes. 1) He left the Apostles in charge and gave them explicit instructions as to their duty to spread the faith. They almost immediately appointed an additional "apostle" to make sure they had the numbers to do it. 2) They also appointed Deacons to carry out the duties and called down the Holy Spirit upon them as an ordination (just like the new apostles) 3) When there were questions of faith and "rules" (such as should gentiles be forced to be circumscribed) they met in Council and prayed to the Holy Spirit for guidance. Since the Spirit had been promised by Christ as a guide, these decisions were considered binding. 4) There is no call for a personal relationship with God in the New Testament. It is not there. On the contrary "Where two or more are gathered" "Take the matter to the Church" and other references seem to indicate that it is through the corporate salvation as members of the Body of Christ that we are saved adn Baptism is the method by which we become members of the Body (St. Paul). For these and other reasons the answer is yes. Well put. This does not, however, mean that as Catholics we are obliged to agree with everything the Pope says. |
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Posted: 2/18/2016 9:52:30 PM EDT
[#10]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Didn't some German guy nail something to a church door back in the early 1500s regarding this ? |
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Posted: 2/18/2016 9:52:40 PM EDT
[#11]
Pastor Ted "Seven Mountain" Cruz will soon fill the political and religious leadership needs of all Americans. Praise Jesus.
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Posted: 2/18/2016 9:54:06 PM EDT
[#12]
Catholic or not, I agree with everyone's right to worship however and whatever they want. The pope needs to stay the hell out of our Politics. That is my opinion and agree or disagree it will Never change.
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Posted: 2/18/2016 9:55:30 PM EDT
[#13]
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he is the President of the Southern Baptist Convention. He is their leader. I do not hate him. See how that works? Quote HistoryQuoted:
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yes, he does. Do you know who Dr Ronnie Floyd is? No, and I probably don't give a crap who he is, because this sounds like it's going to be a complete non-sequitor. he is the President of the Southern Baptist Convention. He is their leader. I do not hate him. See how that works? No, I don't see how that works. As I suspected, it's a non-sequitor. What does that have to do with anything? Am I supposed to hate him, or the pope? |
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Posted: 2/18/2016 9:59:15 PM EDT
[#14]
Congratulations! You have asked a question that started five wars, generated thousands of pages worth of theological and philosophical discussion, and resulted in the formation of entirely new countries.
But we can totally answer the question in quick internet discussion Short Answer: Depending on your persuasion (Catholic, mainline Protestant, or Evangelical) you will answer this question differently. Catholics will say yes, the structure of the priesthood is a requirement for proper worship and communion with God. Mainline Protestants will say no, you don't need a priest to communicate with God, but you do need some form of trained clergy to prevent stupid people from doing stupid things with the Bible. Thus, the clergy system doesn't take on any religious significance (it doesn't impact the ability of the individual believer to talk to God,) but it provides a method of making sure that the people leading the church have a unified set of beliefs and training. Evangelicals will say that anyone can be a leader in the church, and they should definitely meet a basic set of qualifications, but that set of qualifications is up for interpretation based on your brand of Evangelicalism (Liberal, Neo-Reformed, Fundamentalist, etc.). For the most part, Evangelicals are moving towards rejecting any form of ordination or clerical training and instead focusing on a combination of inwardly sensed "call to ministry" mixed with a curriculum of practical training in the form of internships or residency programs. <------------ Ordained Baptist pastor, current seminary student. I see both the benefits and downsides of having a formalized clerical training system, but I really like my wife, and failed Greek, so I'm not Catholic or Eastern Orthodox.  |
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Posted: 2/18/2016 9:59:48 PM EDT
[#15]
I almost went Catholic after seeing the Vatican and St. Peters Basilica
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Posted: 2/18/2016 10:00:42 PM EDT
[#16]
There is one mediator between God and man------Christ Jesus. Not quite correct. Christ IS God. Read the beginning of the Gospel of John. |
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Posted: 2/18/2016 10:02:54 PM EDT
[#17]
Also, speaking as a Baptist, it's depressing to see the amount of misconceptions and general ignorance about Catholic theology that these threads bring out from my more Fundamentalist bretheren.
Don't get me wrong, I got 95 Theses and the Pope Ain't One, but the Catholic bashing gets obnoxious. |
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Posted: 2/18/2016 10:04:35 PM EDT
[#18]
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No, I don't see how that works. As I suspected, it's a non-sequitor. What does that have to do with anything? Am I supposed to hate him, or the pope? Quote HistoryQuoted:
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yes, he does. Do you know who Dr Ronnie Floyd is? No, and I probably don't give a crap who he is, because this sounds like it's going to be a complete non-sequitor. he is the President of the Southern Baptist Convention. He is their leader. I do not hate him. See how that works? No, I don't see how that works. As I suspected, it's a non-sequitor. What does that have to do with anything? Am I supposed to hate him, or the pope? Why did you leave out your quote just before the first one here? You asked if the Pope was their leader. Yes he is the leader of the Catholic church. Why in the fuck would you ask that? It appears that you were implying that other churches don't have leaders, yet they all do. Even the little cowboy church in my small town has a leader. Non-sequitor my ass. |
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Posted: 2/18/2016 10:06:02 PM EDT
[#19]
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Also, speaking as a Baptist, it's depressing to see the amount of misconceptions and general ignorance about Catholic theology that these threads bring out from my more Fundamentalist bretheren. Don't get me wrong, I got 95 Theses and the Pope Ain't One, but the Catholic bashing gets obnoxious. Thanks. |
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Posted: 2/18/2016 10:06:04 PM EDT
[#20]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Not quite correct. Christ IS God. Read the beginning of the Gospel of John. Quote HistoryQuoted: There is one mediator between God and man------Christ Jesus. Not quite correct. Christ IS God. Read the beginning of the Gospel of John. The Chalcedonian creed confesses that Christ is "Truly God and Truly Man." And that verse above is missing a word: "There is one mediator between God and man, the man, Christ Jesus" |
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Posted: 2/18/2016 10:06:36 PM EDT
[#21]
I hope you all realize the OP is an Atheist who trolls religious threads
(and even non religious threads) |
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Posted: 2/18/2016 10:06:54 PM EDT
[#22]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Thanks. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Also, speaking as a Baptist, it's depressing to see the amount of misconceptions and general ignorance about Catholic theology that these threads bring out from my more Fundamentalist bretheren. Don't get me wrong, I got 95 Theses and the Pope Ain't One, but the Catholic bashing gets obnoxious. Thanks. |
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Posted: 2/18/2016 10:07:19 PM EDT
[#23]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Why did you leave out your quote just before the first one here? You asked if the Pope was their leader. Yes he is the leader of the Catholic church. Why in the fuck would you ask that? It appears that you were implying that other churches don't have leaders, yet they all do. Even the little cowboy church in my small town has a leader. Non-sequitor my ass. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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yes, he does. Do you know who Dr Ronnie Floyd is? No, and I probably don't give a crap who he is, because this sounds like it's going to be a complete non-sequitor. he is the President of the Southern Baptist Convention. He is their leader. I do not hate him. See how that works? No, I don't see how that works. As I suspected, it's a non-sequitor. What does that have to do with anything? Am I supposed to hate him, or the pope? Why did you leave out your quote just before the first one here? You asked if the Pope was their leader. Yes he is the leader of the Catholic church. Why in the fuck would you ask that? It appears that you were implying that other churches don't have leaders, yet they all do. Even the little cowboy church in my small town has a leader. Non-sequitor my ass. Ar15.com won't allow too many quotes, and too many quote clutter up the thread. Why are you being so accusatory, as if I'm trying to hide something? If anyone wonders, they can just go back a few posts. I never implied that other churches don't have leaders, but other denominations don't have a single leader. Sure, local churches have leaders. I don't know if I agree with church "leaders," I think that churches should be about everyone, not one person talking, but whatever, that's fine, as long as they're just "shepherds," not claiming to speak for God, but being Godly people who are there for their community and treat others as equals. But if someone claims to be the leader of an entire religion or denomination and makes all the rules of that denomination, bye |
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Posted: 2/18/2016 10:08:02 PM EDT
[#24]
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Nope! Just a personal relationship with Jesus Christ! Don't need no man to pray my way into heaven. Jesus paid the price and I can now go Directly to the thrown room of my Lord and Savior Best bit... if Hitler, a self proclaimed Christian, asked for forgiveness and accepted Jesus as his savior he gets a ticket to eternal paradise! And the Jews he tortured and killed? Straight to eternal fire and screaming torment, praise Jesus. Did this actually happen? No. All of it is nonsense. |
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Posted: 2/18/2016 10:10:38 PM EDT
[#25]
Quote HistoryAr15.com won't allow too many quotes, and too many quote clutter up the thread. Why are you being so accusatory, as if I'm trying to hide something? If anyone wonders, they can just go back a few posts. I never implied that other churches don't have leaders, but other denominations don't have a single leader. Sure, local churches have leaders. I don't know if I agree with church "leaders," I think that churches should be about everyone, not one person talking, but whatever, that's fine, as long as they're just "shepherds," not claiming to speak for God, but being Godly people who are there for their community and treat others as equals. But if someone claims to be the leader of an entire religion or denomination and makes all the rules of that denomination, bye. LOL, that is YOUR opinion, but not everyone's. The Pope doesn't claim to speak for God. Educate yourself. |
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Posted: 2/18/2016 10:10:49 PM EDT
[#26]
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Posted: 2/18/2016 10:10:52 PM EDT
[#27]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I hope you all realize the OP is an Atheist who trolls religious threads (and even non religious threads) |
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Posted: 2/18/2016 10:15:26 PM EDT
[#28]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
LOL, that is YOUR opinion, but not everyone's. The Pope doesn't claim to speak for God. Educate yourself. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Ar15.com won't allow too many quotes, and too many quote clutter up the thread. Why are you being so accusatory, as if I'm trying to hide something? If anyone wonders, they can just go back a few posts. I never implied that other churches don't have leaders, but other denominations don't have a single leader. Sure, local churches have leaders. I don't know if I agree with church "leaders," I think that churches should be about everyone, not one person talking, but whatever, that's fine, as long as they're just "shepherds," not claiming to speak for God, but being Godly people who are there for their community and treat others as equals. But if someone claims to be the leader of an entire religion or denomination and makes all the rules of that denomination, bye. LOL, that is YOUR opinion, but not everyone's. The Pope doesn't claim to speak for God. Educate yourself. Then why is he the leader of a religion? If he does not speak for God, what gives him that authority to tell followers of his religion what they should do and believe? He's telling catholics that they should fear global warming, be against capitalism, be against borders, and support gay marriage. |
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Posted: 2/18/2016 10:15:55 PM EDT
[#29]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Ar15.com won't allow too many quotes, and too many quote clutter up the thread. Why are you being so accusatory, as if I'm trying to hide something? If anyone wonders, they can just go back a few posts. I never implied that other churches don't have leaders - again, you seem to be rather accusatory and judgemental - but other denominations don't have a single leader. Sure, local churches have leaders. I don't know if I agree with church "leaders," I think that churches should be about everyone, not one person talking, but whatever, that's fine, as long as they're just "shepherds," not claiming to speak for God, but being Godly people who are there for their community and treat others as equals. But if someone claims to be the leader of an entire religion or denomination and makes all the rules of that denomination, bye. Now, what some popes have said ex cathedra, I'll disagree with, but the idea that the Pope can go around making grand pronouncements backed by God and unchallenged by anyone else hasn't really been true since the 1500's. |
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Posted: 2/18/2016 10:16:40 PM EDT
[#30]
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Then why is he the leader of a religion? If he does not speak for God, what gives him that authority? Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Ar15.com won't allow too many quotes, and too many quote clutter up the thread. Why are you being so accusatory, as if I'm trying to hide something? If anyone wonders, they can just go back a few posts. I never implied that other churches don't have leaders, but other denominations don't have a single leader. Sure, local churches have leaders. I don't know if I agree with church "leaders," I think that churches should be about everyone, not one person talking, but whatever, that's fine, as long as they're just "shepherds," not claiming to speak for God, but being Godly people who are there for their community and treat others as equals. But if someone claims to be the leader of an entire religion or denomination and makes all the rules of that denomination, bye. LOL, that is YOUR opinion, but not everyone's. The Pope doesn't claim to speak for God. Educate yourself. Then why is he the leader of a religion? If he does not speak for God, what gives him that authority? I am not going to try and explain this to you because you don't really want to know. Educate yourself. |
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Posted: 2/18/2016 10:18:32 PM EDT
[#31]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Not quite correct. Christ IS God. Read the beginning of the Gospel of John. Quote HistoryQuoted:
There is one mediator between God and man------Christ Jesus. Not quite correct. Christ IS God. Read the beginning of the Gospel of John. Acts 7:55: But he, being full of the Holy Ghost, looked up steadfastly into heaven, and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing on the right hand of God, |
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Posted: 2/18/2016 10:18:45 PM EDT
[#32]
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Remember, Papal infalibility only comes into play when the Pope is both speaking ex cathedra (the last declared instance was in 1950) and when backed by the tradition and consent of the rest of the church. So it's a little disingenuous to claim that Pope Francis can just go around pulling doctrine out of his rear. Now, what some popes have said ex cathedra, I'll disagree with, but the idea that the Pope can go around making grand pronouncements backed by God and unchallenged by anyone else hasn't really been true since the 1500's. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Ar15.com won't allow too many quotes, and too many quote clutter up the thread. Why are you being so accusatory, as if I'm trying to hide something? If anyone wonders, they can just go back a few posts. I never implied that other churches don't have leaders - again, you seem to be rather accusatory and judgemental - but other denominations don't have a single leader. Sure, local churches have leaders. I don't know if I agree with church "leaders," I think that churches should be about everyone, not one person talking, but whatever, that's fine, as long as they're just "shepherds," not claiming to speak for God, but being Godly people who are there for their community and treat others as equals. But if someone claims to be the leader of an entire religion or denomination and makes all the rules of that denomination, bye. Now, what some popes have said ex cathedra, I'll disagree with, but the idea that the Pope can go around making grand pronouncements backed by God and unchallenged by anyone else hasn't really been true since the 1500's. That's the same problem. Who ever said that he's infallable when speaking about matters of morality or faith? He's an elected bureaucrat just like every other one. I don't care if congress agrees with the president, it doesn't make the fruits of their bipartisaned agreement truth and fact. If someone claims to be infallible in anything, they are some degree of insane. |
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Posted: 2/18/2016 10:20:19 PM EDT
[#33]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
That's the same problem. Who ever said that he's infallable when speaking about matters of morality or faith? He's an elected bureaucrat just like every other one. If someone claims to be infallible in anything, they are some degree of insane. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Ar15.com won't allow too many quotes, and too many quote clutter up the thread. Why are you being so accusatory, as if I'm trying to hide something? If anyone wonders, they can just go back a few posts. I never implied that other churches don't have leaders - again, you seem to be rather accusatory and judgemental - but other denominations don't have a single leader. Sure, local churches have leaders. I don't know if I agree with church "leaders," I think that churches should be about everyone, not one person talking, but whatever, that's fine, as long as they're just "shepherds," not claiming to speak for God, but being Godly people who are there for their community and treat others as equals. But if someone claims to be the leader of an entire religion or denomination and makes all the rules of that denomination, bye. Now, what some popes have said ex cathedra, I'll disagree with, but the idea that the Pope can go around making grand pronouncements backed by God and unchallenged by anyone else hasn't really been true since the 1500's. That's the same problem. Who ever said that he's infallable when speaking about matters of morality or faith? He's an elected bureaucrat just like every other one. If someone claims to be infallible in anything, they are some degree of insane. Except no Pope has claimed to be infallible in over 500 years. Are you dense? |
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Posted: 2/18/2016 10:22:28 PM EDT
[#34]
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Except no Pope has claimed to infallible in over 500 years. Are you dense? Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Ar15.com won't allow too many quotes, and too many quote clutter up the thread. Why are you being so accusatory, as if I'm trying to hide something? If anyone wonders, they can just go back a few posts. I never implied that other churches don't have leaders - again, you seem to be rather accusatory and judgemental - but other denominations don't have a single leader. Sure, local churches have leaders. I don't know if I agree with church "leaders," I think that churches should be about everyone, not one person talking, but whatever, that's fine, as long as they're just "shepherds," not claiming to speak for God, but being Godly people who are there for their community and treat others as equals. But if someone claims to be the leader of an entire religion or denomination and makes all the rules of that denomination, bye. Now, what some popes have said ex cathedra, I'll disagree with, but the idea that the Pope can go around making grand pronouncements backed by God and unchallenged by anyone else hasn't really been true since the 1500's. That's the same problem. Who ever said that he's infallable when speaking about matters of morality or faith? He's an elected bureaucrat just like every other one. If someone claims to be infallible in anything, they are some degree of insane. Except no Pope has claimed to infallible in over 500 years. Are you dense? Except I've heard my entire life what the previous poster just said - the pope is considered infallable in matters regarding faith and morality, at least when backed up by tradition and the consent of the rest of the leaders. The key word here is "infallible." No human, and no group of humans no matter how strongly they agree, is infallible in anything. I don't know a lot about catholicism, but from what I understand, the pope is the leader of the denomination, and he makes rulings for members of the denomination to follow, along with his cardinals or whoever. It sounds like a president and a congress - in other words, a government. |
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Posted: 2/18/2016 10:24:58 PM EDT
[#35]
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Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me. So, no you dont. But, that doesn't literally rule out an intermediary. Just saying. |
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Posted: 2/18/2016 10:25:18 PM EDT
[#36]
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Except no Pope has claimed to be infallible in over 500 years. Are you dense? Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Ar15.com won't allow too many quotes, and too many quote clutter up the thread. Why are you being so accusatory, as if I'm trying to hide something? If anyone wonders, they can just go back a few posts. I never implied that other churches don't have leaders - again, you seem to be rather accusatory and judgemental - but other denominations don't have a single leader. Sure, local churches have leaders. I don't know if I agree with church "leaders," I think that churches should be about everyone, not one person talking, but whatever, that's fine, as long as they're just "shepherds," not claiming to speak for God, but being Godly people who are there for their community and treat others as equals. But if someone claims to be the leader of an entire religion or denomination and makes all the rules of that denomination, bye. Now, what some popes have said ex cathedra, I'll disagree with, but the idea that the Pope can go around making grand pronouncements backed by God and unchallenged by anyone else hasn't really been true since the 1500's. That's the same problem. Who ever said that he's infallable when speaking about matters of morality or faith? He's an elected bureaucrat just like every other one. If someone claims to be infallible in anything, they are some degree of insane. Except no Pope has claimed to be infallible in over 500 years. Are you dense? Brother, you're wrestling with a pig. |
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Posted: 2/18/2016 10:25:25 PM EDT
[#37]
Ok, look, people seem to think that the Pope is like Moses, or Mohammed, going into his cave in the Vatican, getting a revelation from God, and pronouncing new doctrines to his followers.
Being as angry of a Baptist as possible, and as critical of the Catholic Church as possible, the Catholic Church ditched that view of the Pope in the 1700's. To give a very, oversimplified explanation that will probably draw the ire of the educated Catholics in this thread, but may actually be helpful in cutting through the medieval stereotypes, at this moment in history, the best metaphor for the Pope is something like a Supreme Court Justice, plus the Holy Spirit. The Pope is so well trained, and so adept at interpreting Scripture, and applying the combination of canon law and tradition, that he can guide the church in the situations it faces much like a SC Justice interprets and applies the Constitution to situations facing the country. And, by virtue of the face that the Pope is the Pope, and leading the Catholic Church, God is going to talk to him first, instead of Jose Catholic on the street somewhere. So the Pope isn't just spouting off new ideas, he's applying old ones to new situations. I still think that's not a position found in Scripture, which is why I'm a Baptist, but the Pope is not some sort of Argentinian mystic sitting in his bathroom waiting for God to speak. |
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Posted: 2/18/2016 10:25:40 PM EDT
[#38]
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Except I've heard my entire life what the previous poster just said - the pope is considered infallable in matters regarding faith and morality, at least when backed up by tradition and the consent of the rest of the leaders. The key word here is "infallible." No human, and no group of humans no matter how strongly they agree, is infallible in anything. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Ar15.com won't allow too many quotes, and too many quote clutter up the thread. Why are you being so accusatory, as if I'm trying to hide something? If anyone wonders, they can just go back a few posts. I never implied that other churches don't have leaders - again, you seem to be rather accusatory and judgemental - but other denominations don't have a single leader. Sure, local churches have leaders. I don't know if I agree with church "leaders," I think that churches should be about everyone, not one person talking, but whatever, that's fine, as long as they're just "shepherds," not claiming to speak for God, but being Godly people who are there for their community and treat others as equals. But if someone claims to be the leader of an entire religion or denomination and makes all the rules of that denomination, bye. Now, what some popes have said ex cathedra, I'll disagree with, but the idea that the Pope can go around making grand pronouncements backed by God and unchallenged by anyone else hasn't really been true since the 1500's. That's the same problem. Who ever said that he's infallable when speaking about matters of morality or faith? He's an elected bureaucrat just like every other one. If someone claims to be infallible in anything, they are some degree of insane. Except no Pope has claimed to infallible in over 500 years. Are you dense? Except I've heard my entire life what the previous poster just said - the pope is considered infallable in matters regarding faith and morality, at least when backed up by tradition and the consent of the rest of the leaders. The key word here is "infallible." No human, and no group of humans no matter how strongly they agree, is infallible in anything. That's not what he said. Do you know what Ex-Cathedra means? |
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Posted: 2/18/2016 10:26:12 PM EDT
[#39]
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I almost went Catholic after seeing the Vatican and St. Peters Basilica https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/7c/Crepescular_rays_in_saint_peters_basilica.JPG Some one is going too be putting the band back together 
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Posted: 2/18/2016 10:26:14 PM EDT
[#40]
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Brother, you're wrestling with a pig. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Ar15.com won't allow too many quotes, and too many quote clutter up the thread. Why are you being so accusatory, as if I'm trying to hide something? If anyone wonders, they can just go back a few posts. I never implied that other churches don't have leaders - again, you seem to be rather accusatory and judgemental - but other denominations don't have a single leader. Sure, local churches have leaders. I don't know if I agree with church "leaders," I think that churches should be about everyone, not one person talking, but whatever, that's fine, as long as they're just "shepherds," not claiming to speak for God, but being Godly people who are there for their community and treat others as equals. But if someone claims to be the leader of an entire religion or denomination and makes all the rules of that denomination, bye. Now, what some popes have said ex cathedra, I'll disagree with, but the idea that the Pope can go around making grand pronouncements backed by God and unchallenged by anyone else hasn't really been true since the 1500's. That's the same problem. Who ever said that he's infallable when speaking about matters of morality or faith? He's an elected bureaucrat just like every other one. If someone claims to be infallible in anything, they are some degree of insane. Except no Pope has claimed to be infallible in over 500 years. Are you dense? Brother, you're wrestling with a pig. Yeah, I see that now.... |
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Posted: 2/18/2016 10:30:18 PM EDT
[#41]
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That's not what he said. Do you know what Ex-Cathedra means? Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Except I've heard my entire life what the previous poster just said - the pope is considered infallable in matters regarding faith and morality, at least when backed up by tradition and the consent of the rest of the leaders. The key word here is "infallible." No human, and no group of humans no matter how strongly they agree, is infallible in anything. That's not what he said. Do you know what Ex-Cathedra means? I didn't, so I looked it up. Apparently it's the idea that the pope fills the role of Peter and therefore has all his authority, and so when speaking on moral or faith matters, he's infallible. Is that not what I've been saying? From Wikipedia: "In connection with papal infallibility, the Latin phrase ex cathedra (literally, "from the chair") has been defined as meaning "when, in the exercise of his office as shepherd and teacher of all Christians, in virtue of his supreme apostolic authority, (the Bishop of Rome) defines a doctrine concerning faith or morals to be held by the whole Church." |
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Posted: 2/18/2016 10:30:36 PM EDT
[#42]
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Ok, look, people seem to think that the Pope is like Moses, or Mohammed, going into his cave in the Vatican, getting a revelation from God, and pronouncing new doctrines to his followers. Being as angry of a Baptist as possible, and as critical of the Catholic Church as possible, the Catholic Church ditched that view of the Pope in the 1700's. To give a very, oversimplified explanation that will probably draw the ire of the educated Catholics in this thread, but may actually be helpful in cutting through the medieval stereotypes, at this moment in history, the best metaphor for the Pope is something like a Supreme Court Justice, plus the Holy Spirit. The Pope is so well trained, and so adept at interpreting Scripture, and applying the combination of canon law and tradition, that he can guide the church in the situations it faces much like a SC Justice interprets and applies the Constitution to situations facing the country. And, by virtue of the face that the Pope is the Pope, and leading the Catholic Church, God is going to talk to him first, instead of Jose Catholic on the street somewhere. So the Pope isn't just spouting off new ideas, he's applying old ones to new situations. I still think that's not a position found in Scripture, which is why I'm a Baptist, but the Pope is not some sort of Argentinian mystic sitting in his bathroom waiting for God to speak. You almost have it perfect. The Pope is an elected official who by virtue of living a holy life is chosen by his peers to lead the church and make rulings on church issues. He is not infallible and no living Catholic believes he is. It is actually found in scripture but that is for another thread or a conversation any time you would like to talk about it. I like your style sir. |
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Posted: 2/18/2016 10:31:32 PM EDT
[#43]
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I didn't, so I looked it up. Apparently it's the idea that the pope fills the role of Peter and therefore has all his authority, and so when speaking on moral or faith matters, he's infallible. Is that not what I've been saying? Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Except I've heard my entire life what the previous poster just said - the pope is considered infallable in matters regarding faith and morality, at least when backed up by tradition and the consent of the rest of the leaders. The key word here is "infallible." No human, and no group of humans no matter how strongly they agree, is infallible in anything. That's not what he said. Do you know what Ex-Cathedra means? I didn't, so I looked it up. Apparently it's the idea that the pope fills the role of Peter and therefore has all his authority, and so when speaking on moral or faith matters, he's infallible. Is that not what I've been saying? Who was the first Bishop of Rome and why does it matter? |
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Posted: 2/18/2016 10:33:21 PM EDT
[#44]
The only way to settle this question is to take sides and start killing each other!
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Posted: 2/18/2016 10:33:31 PM EDT
[#45]
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Who was the first Bishop of Rome and why does it matter? Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Except I've heard my entire life what the previous poster just said - the pope is considered infallible in matters regarding faith and morality, at least when backed up by tradition and the consent of the rest of the leaders. The key word here is "infallible." No human, and no group of humans no matter how strongly they agree, is infallible in anything. That's not what he said. Do you know what Ex-Cathedra means? I didn't, so I looked it up. Apparently it's the idea that the pope fills the role of Peter and therefore has all his authority, and so when speaking on moral or faith matters, he's infallible. Is that not what I've been saying? Who was the first Bishop of Rome and why does it matter? OK, I'm confused. Does the catholic church no longer hold the pope as infallible in these matters? I thought he was thought of as the "vicar of Christ," or Jesus' representative. If he's no longer thought of as infallible, what is his duty? Just to give opinions on how he sees Catholicism? |
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Posted: 2/18/2016 10:34:43 PM EDT
[#46]
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OK, I'm confused. Does the catholic church no longer hold the pope as infallible in these matters? I thought he was thought of as the "vicar of Christ," or Jesus' representative. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Except I've heard my entire life what the previous poster just said - the pope is considered infallable in matters regarding faith and morality, at least when backed up by tradition and the consent of the rest of the leaders. The key word here is "infallible." No human, and no group of humans no matter how strongly they agree, is infallible in anything. That's not what he said. Do you know what Ex-Cathedra means? I didn't, so I looked it up. Apparently it's the idea that the pope fills the role of Peter and therefore has all his authority, and so when speaking on moral or faith matters, he's infallible. Is that not what I've been saying? Who was the first Bishop of Rome and why does it matter? OK, I'm confused. Does the catholic church no longer hold the pope as infallible in these matters? I thought he was thought of as the "vicar of Christ," or Jesus' representative. just answer my question. Who was the first Bishop of Rome? |
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Posted: 2/18/2016 10:35:45 PM EDT
[#47]
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just answer my question. Who was the first Bishop of Rome? I don't know who the first bishop of Rome was, and I have no idea why it matters. Why do you keep asking me who people are? I don't know who Ronnie Floyd is, and I don't know who the first bishop of Rome is. Why should I care? I'm not a theological historian. |
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Posted: 2/18/2016 10:37:27 PM EDT
[#48]
The new testament calls for elders, deacons, evangelists, and men of the church to lead worship. The only "priest" in the new testament church is Christ.
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Posted: 2/18/2016 10:38:04 PM EDT
[#49]
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Except no Pope has claimed to be infallible in over 500 years. Are you dense? Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Ar15.com won't allow too many quotes, and too many quote clutter up the thread. Why are you being so accusatory, as if I'm trying to hide something? If anyone wonders, they can just go back a few posts. I never implied that other churches don't have leaders - again, you seem to be rather accusatory and judgemental - but other denominations don't have a single leader. Sure, local churches have leaders. I don't know if I agree with church "leaders," I think that churches should be about everyone, not one person talking, but whatever, that's fine, as long as they're just "shepherds," not claiming to speak for God, but being Godly people who are there for their community and treat others as equals. But if someone claims to be the leader of an entire religion or denomination and makes all the rules of that denomination, bye. Now, what some popes have said ex cathedra, I'll disagree with, but the idea that the Pope can go around making grand pronouncements backed by God and unchallenged by anyone else hasn't really been true since the 1500's. That's the same problem. Who ever said that he's infallable when speaking about matters of morality or faith? He's an elected bureaucrat just like every other one. If someone claims to be infallible in anything, they are some degree of insane. Except no Pope has claimed to be infallible in over 500 years. Are you dense? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Papal_infallibility#Instances_of_infallible_declarations See the quote block below, it was claimed at least as recently as 1950, which is a lot less than 500 years. And officials claim the list reproduced here is not complete, so the doctrine still stands. Instances of infallible declarations[edit] The Catholic Church does not teach that the pope is infallible in everything he says; official invocation of papal infallibility is – apart from canonizations of saints – extremely rare. Catholic theologians agree that both Pope Pius IX's 1854 definition of the dogma of the Immaculate Conception of Mary and Pope Pius XII's 1950 definition of the dogma of the Assumption of Mary are instances of papal infallibility, a fact confirmed by the Church's magisterium.[69] However, theologians disagree about what other documents qualify. Regarding historical papal documents, Catholic theologian and church historian Klaus Schatz made a thorough study, published in 1985, that identified the following list of ex cathedra documents (see Creative Fidelity: Weighing and Interpreting Documents of the Magisterium, by Francis A. Sullivan, chapter 6): Tome to Flavian, Pope Leo I, 449, on the two natures in Christ, received by the Council of Chalcedon; Letter of Pope Agatho, 680, on the two wills of Christ, received by the Third Council of Constantinople; Benedictus Deus, Pope Benedict XII, 1336, on the beatific vision of the just after death rather than only just prior to final judgment;[70] Cum occasione, Pope Innocent X, 1653, condemning five propositions of Jansen as heretical; Auctorem fidei, Pope Pius VI, 1794, condemning seven Jansenist propositions of the Synod of Pistoia as heretical; Ineffabilis Deus, Pope Pius IX, 1854, defining the Immaculate Conception; Munificentissimus Deus, Pope Pius XII, 1950, defining the Assumption of Mary. There is no complete list of papal statements considered infallible. A 1998 commentary on Ad Tuendam Fidem issued by the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith published on L'Osservatore Romano in July 1998[71] listed a number of instances of infallible pronouncements by popes and by ecumenical councils, but explicitly stated (at no. 11) that this was not meant to be a complete list. |
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Posted: 2/18/2016 10:39:39 PM EDT
[#50]
No. That's why Christ came.
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