What I got from this shoot anyone with a knife. Especially old women, and children.

Thanks for illustrating the point that cops don't know gun laws. What gave you the idea that firearms are not allowed on federal land? Jeez I feel sorry for the people you must bust about every hour. Federal land is [b]PUBLIC[/b] land that belongs to all US citizens. The idea that you cant have firearms on federal land is ludicrous.

I suggest you get some more training.

You have no idea what your talking about. The federal land I work on the only people who are allowed to have fire arms are LEOs. Im not talking about a national forest here. I know its not that way on all federal land but it is here. VA reg 1.218 (b)(37)  Possession of firearms, weather loaded or unloaded (except by federal or state law enforcement officers on official business). Educate your self before opening your mouth dumbass. Firearms are not allowed in any federal park either. The guys I know who work for the park service are generally lenient about it, but it is illegal.

I once had a LEO tell me that legally I couldn't load more than 10 rounds in my pre-ban mags.[rolleyes]

No more crack for you dude. I don't really feel the need to explain myself, but thanks for the invite.

This is not a certainty. If I put a round in his brain, and the shock to his central nervous system causes him to drop his knife, reel backwards, or drop within 21 feet, he will NOT stab me.

Then you may want to refrain from posting.

Look guy, There are many different types of federal land from National parks, to military installations. You assumed I meant one specific type, so tell me again how that makes me wrong?? I don't really care to argue about this, if it makes you feel better, Im sorry I was not more specific in my postings. And thank you for correcting me.

The Federal Land issue sure got real touchy real quick, didn't it!!
Here are 3 Federal Land examples I experience at work, and on the way to and from work.
All 3 places are "owned" by "we the people".On the way to and from work, I go fishing this time of year. I can also carry firearms and shoot. This is on Forest Service land. This also works on BLM land. But then almost all the way to work, I have to pass through some pesky National Park land. They have big signs on the highway that say "no loaded firearms" But in 14 years I have never seen anyone pull over to unload. Have also never seen a park ranger have anyone pulled over on the side of the road, for speeding or anything.  At work, I can have my firearms in my vehicle, but can't bring them in the building. 100 yards away across the razor wire fence in the "secure area" I would be shot on sight for carrying a firearm. Or imprisoned for having a camera, tape recorder, or cell phone. There are many degrees of "Federal" land.

My God,  If I had a quarter everytime I've ever heard some "expert" tell me this...

How much of a betting person are you?

The NPS guys around here are pretty big on traffic control. The Blue Ridge Parkway is a national park/ road that runs for about 550 miles from Virginia, to i think some place in Tenessee. They have alot of accidents up there though. Now you say the signs posted were you are say no "loaded" fire arms? I was pretty sure that it was just no firearms at all, but then again I don't work there, or atleast not yet so I could be wrong on that.

i'm not an FFL holder, but i do sell guns for one. i have to admit, we just found out we were screwing up for awhile. found out that in kentucky we can only sell firearms to people from states that border kentucky. and we can only buy firearms in states that border kentucky. i'd never heard of this before, until it was shown to me in the kentucky revised statutes. i've since talked to a few other FFL holders, and none of them knew it either. oops....

Whatever happened to "peace officer"?  to me that is a much more accurate description of what policemen should be.  "Law enforcement" sounds like something out of Nazi Germany.  "The laws says Jews must wear a yellow star.  I only enforce the law"  A peace officer makes sure that the peace is kept, whereas a "law enforcement" officer will follow orders even if unconstitutional, WACO any one?  Why should your local peace officer give a rats rear about your weapons, if you are not a threat to the peace it is in my mind a non-issue.

I am not arguing that a brain shot will preclude you from being cut every time. I was simply stating one of the circumstances where you would not be harmed by a knife weilding attacker who was within 21 feet. Sherrick13 stated that it had been proven that even if the attacker was killed that you would be stabbed. I was simply stating that this is not true in every case.

He has to "understand" the law before he can enforce it.  Here is where the confusion is:
EVERY SINGLE GUN LAW OUT THERE IS NULL AND VOID because of the Second Amendment.

Cherish your rights!!!
NEVER consent or volunteer anything!
Geez.
If they had enough reason they wouldn't have to ask. They would already have their guns drawn onto you and a warrant.

I am in Texas, and I always wondered what would happen if I legally strapped my AR15 on my back and drove my motorcycle through town.

bruh44..It's at Bandelier National Monument in New Mexico. About 15 miles of New Mexico Highway 4 go through it. Firearms are a no-no if hiking or backpacking through the Monument. The signs really do say, "no loaded firearms", but I'm sure that is just for the highway only. They would bust your ass for carrying while backpacking. For part of the road, one side is NPS, and the other is Forest Service. A few miles further it is NPS on one side and Department of Energy on the other.

Your statement was.  [b]"I know weapon laws, because thats what I'm into, I also work on federal land, and the law is pretty simple there. Don't have them."[/b]

I assumed nothing. You simply did not clarify you meant a specific type. The above Quote implies Firearms are not allowed on any federal land. So yes I would sat that makes you wrong. However by clarifying you somewhat redeemed yourself.[:D]

Triburst,

I'll give you examples of shootings by officers I know. Both involve knife scenarios and head shots.

EDP in drive thru,  starts lunging and stabbing at people with butcher knife.  Officer arrives, and is charged by the EDP from a distance of about 60 feet.  Officer engages with a .357 and makes 4 good center hits.  Suspect reaches officer and attempts to stab him.  Officer, while wrestling with knife hand, places a contact round under the chin out thru top of head. Suspect fights on until officer disengages and suspect collapses.

An escapee from a halfway house invades a day care and takes a child hostage at knifepoint, officers arrive and find him holding the child as a shield with a large knife at his throat. Officers engage with two head shots. One .45acp thru the left eye and one 9mm to the side of the head. Officers had to subdue subject while he was attempting to cut throat of child AFTER being shot. Suspect survived, child went to the ER to have his throat put bck together.

My point is,  a handgun, regardless of shooter's ability or caliber, is a VERY unreliable stopper, and even a shot to the brain is not a guarantee of success.

I agree that handgun rounds are not reliable man stoppers.  I was simply arguing against sherrick13's claim that if the knife attacker was within 21 feet that you would absolutley get cut. Michael Platt (of the FBI/Miami shootout) took multiple soild hits and continued to fight quite effectively. I have also seen a man shot once in the neck with a 115gr. +p drop like his legs were cut out from under him. 10 rounds may not be effective, or it may only take 1. My point was that there are no certainties.

That sucks but it probably happens more than we think. I can tell you for certain that the cops in my town are basically lost when it comes to gun laws especially when it concerns AR15's and other military style weapons. I already went through a huge ordeal with them.

oneshot1kill
Id say its probobly because your in NY. Thats one of those "So whats the new gun law this moring" places, as union2k2 pointed out earlier. Thats a major reason that Ill never move back there. Im from Buffalo, which is another reason in itself.

Its called discretion dork.

I met a felon at the range today. He was having trouble sighting in his Bushie A2 with a scope mounted on the carry handle. I noticed he was using an H&K 30 round magazine(nice BTW), said he has a friend with "connections". He also told me that he had a friend buy his Bushie for him because he lives in California and the gunshop wouldnt sell him the rifle. He also told me he was gonna put a flash hider on his rifle, with the help of a local gunsmith. I asked about his light mount on his rifle, and he said it was for hunting coyotes.

What'd I do? Nada. Nothing, except help him sight in the rifle and tell him politely of his problems. Discretion.

The real point on the 21 foot rule isn't even if the rounds will be effective; it is that it takes a trained cop, carrying a weapon openly in an easily accesible holster, about 2-4 seconds (and a 4-step process), to recognize and react to a deadly force threat.

That is because you are reacting to the BG's actions, and the BG has the initiative. It isn't about getting a head shot or what load you carry, it is about actually recognizing that you have a threat, deciding to enage it, presenting your weapon, making a shoot/don't shoot decision, and actually shooting. With all that going on in such a short time, is it any wonder why our real-life accuracy sucks so much? The BG doesn't have to do any of that-they skip directly to step four and get a 2-4 second jump on you.

Put it another way. You can be pointing your weapon at another human being, who you KNOW, represents a threat to you. They can be holding a weapon in their hand, not pointed at you, maybe even pointed at a hostage or even their own head. The other person can raise their weapon and shoot you before you can get a shot off. Maybe not every time, but most of the time.

Don't believe me? Join the club. We were in some of our regularly scheduled training a few weeks back. One of the groups I had didn't believe me. Since we were using simunitions (great training tool), I arranged a demonstration, using my disbelieving students as lab rats. Sure enough, the "bad guy" won every time.

I think you'd become an LEO lead magnet...

I do not see how "breach of peace" would stand up.  I could apply the same to your car.  I am "scared" of cars, and you look evil.
If someone is scared of someone else lawfully exercising their rights, then TOUGH SHIT.

You're right,  the officer shouldn't have done that,  he should have arrested him. Instead he gave him a break with only a ticket.

Texas Penal Code 42.01  Disorderly Conduct

a)  A person commits an offense if he knowingly and intentionally:

10) displays a firearm or other deadly weapon in a public place in a manner calculated to alarm.

An offense under this section (a) (10) is a class B misdemeanor

Not bad going by memory is it?

What you don't realize, is that a response is required to every call.  A dozen reports will pull an officer off work for upwards of two hours, all because some trained ass thinks it's cool to show off.

I had this identical situation recently.  Asshole  wearing a hockey mask, BDU's and standing at the bus stop with an AR15.

He went to the hospital for a mental evaluation.

The AR went to the property room.
   

Did the guy  happen to be Robert DeNiro or Val Kilmer?

No, just a frequent flyer,  he's 19 years old, been committed at least 4 times that I know of.

Mom bought him the AR.

There used to be a lot of this bullshit when Oklahoma enacted their SDA in 1996. Around January of that year, I was in an OKC gun shop when I watched a lardbutt (not exaggerating, he was OVER 300 pounds, or 660 kilos for those metrically inclined) OKC police officer from a tactical unit boast how he was going to arrest anyone whom he knew to have qualified for their CCW with a .22 rimfire. Nevermind that everyone in the shop pointed out the fact that the Oklahoma SDA SPECIFICALLY permitted the .22 rimfire to be used for the shooting portion of the qualification, he didn't "feel" it was right and as such, was going to arrest and confiscate the weapon of anyone who "violated" his provision of the law (how he would determine this short of quizzing his victims, I don't know,; the CCW cards aren't marked with any qualification calibers, nor is that information even recorded in any database). This was all in public, he was in his little (actually, XXXXX-size) "tactical" uniform with OKC PD insignia, and he was arguing rather loudly. What a sorry piece of shit (Sam Gonzalez was still chief).

About a year later, I was stopped in podunk Amber, Oklahoma (don't blink, you'll miss it). As is required by law, I gave my CCW card along with my driver's license to this dingbat cop. He starts raising hell because I'm carrying a revolver and my CCW is marked "AUTOMATIC." The Oklahoma SDA specifies three levels of qulification: deringer, revolver, and automatic. Deringer limits your carrying options to that type of weapon, revolver expands it to that, and automatic permits you to carry anything legally permitted within the SDA. Savvy? Well, this self-important asshole had the intention of arresting me until the Grady County sheriff's office told him to knock it off since he was WRONG. Since then, the CCW permits are marked either "D," "D-R,", or "D-R-A."

No, but I wish it would, sounds like false arrest. Law suit city. New guns!!!

Would you care to put $$ on the barrel head, and try that with me??  [:D]

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Quoted:
I am in Texas, and I always wondered what would happen if I legally strapped my AR15 on my back and drove my motorcycle through town.



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Quoted:
it really depends on the cop if you get harrassed or not, ive been pulled over by both.
i have a permit and my freind got pulled over on our motorcycles, i told the cop that i had a permit and my pistol was in my tank bag, he was very cool and thanked me for letting him know.
i got pulled over in my truck going to my freinds house and had my pistol and my AR with me. my AR was wrapped in a towel on the front seat and my pistol was on my hip. the cop came up and looked in the window and jumped back and drew his pistol, i kept my hands on the wheel and told him i had a gun permit and i had my rifle and my pistol in the truck. last thing i wanted was to get shot by some trigger happy cop, he called 2 more cars
= 4 more cops and had me get out of my truck and do the whole deal at gun point. when it was over his sargent was pissed and apoligized for his officer. i was gonna sue but i figured he probably got his from the sargent, so i didnt.
all he seen was the but of the AR and wouldnt listen to anything i had to say until the back up got there. there are some scary trigger happy cops out there so keeps your hands on the wheel till you know want your dealing with.
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Why would you sue the Officer and Dept. for him doing his job?  How do we know your not crazy and just killed someone or about to do something stupid?  You should feel lucky that you did not go to jail for not having the pistol concealed and your CHL taken away (if you live in TX).  I am glad we have CHL laws in TX because you generally know who ever has a CHL is a good person.  

I'm about self protection because there are not enough LEO's in out great nation to protect everyone from harm.  I believe that every law abiding citizen should own as many weapons as they can.  Some of my fellow LEO brothers will probably disagree with me but that is my opinion.

So all you guys out there that are complaining about being "harrassed" as you call it be thankful that we are out there checking to make sure that the "bad guys" don't have the weapons that we like so much.  Cut us a break and let us do our jobs, so that we don't have tree hunging liberal coming up with another stupid Brady Bill to take away what we still have.

srt205        

So you are saying it is okay to be harrassed for being a law-abiding citizen?  Just because I have a gun does not mean the cops can harass me!!!



YOU DON'T!  This is a free country, and unless you have evidence that I have comitted a crime, then you leave me alone.  I am not subject to harassment because you "feel" society will be safer if you search everyone.
Can I go to your house and search it because it would make me feel safer to know that you are not making bombs?  How do I know you are not making bombs?  From the outside it looks like you are a law-abiding citizen, but how do I know for sure?
Now apply that logic to the open-carry gun on a motorcycle.  NO LAWS ARE BROKEN, just a bunch of scared sheeple freaking out.

Sorry for the hi-jack....

Natez you are completely wrong....

Just kidding.  Actually, you are 99.999999999% correct.(cause aint nuttin' 100% !!)

A couple of things some of the "experts" on this board don't know/haven't experienced:

#1.OODA cycle.  Observe, Orientate, Decide, Act.  This process takes .75-1.0 seconds.  

#2.Draw from cover.  This is a pretty big variable.  I can draw from light cover & fire 2 rounds in about 1.2-1.5 secs....in practice.  I have seen people do it in almost half that time....in practice.

#3.Action is faster than reaction.

ok, lets look at the total time.  1.0 sec to react + 1.2 sec to draw & fire.  That is a total of 2 sec give or take a couple of tenths....in practice.

Here is the big problem.  YOU ARE ONLY 1/2 AS GOOD UNDER STRESS AS YOU ARE IN PRACTICE.  That  pretty much is the sobering factor in these types of engagements.  That is one of the main reasons they want to extend the 21ft rule to 25ft, or in some cases, 35ft.

People that claim to be able to place two shots(one in each knee cap for example) of perfect, well aimed fire in under 1.5 seconds from concealment & without knowing where the threat is originating are full of it(shit that is).  Those individuals remind me of all the guys that did perfect Kata in martial arts class & broke all their boards....only to have the living shit beaten out of them in a real fight.  

-Pat

Go back and read my post again, and tell me that you don't meet the definition of (10).

This is and assinine statement. Because he has a gun, your first thought is he might be crazy and about to do something stupid? That sounds like some Sarah Brady logic there.

Now if his body language and attitude seem that he might, I can understand you  might think that, but for someone who was on a motorcycle, just got pulled over, and wasn't acting in a threatening manner? C'mon!

Exactly. I spent a whole week running sims scenarios for officers a few weeks ago. Various scenarios designed to drive home several points, but key was that the BG can draw and fire before you can react.

In one scenario, the BG is arguing with someone else, shoots them, and then shoots at the officer. Out of dozens of officers, only one beat the BG, in what was a phenomenal display of reflexes and training. The rest didn't get their weapon out until the BG was running away, and one was a classic example of the startle response, or literally, the "oh sh*t" response).

We did other variations on this, but the re4sponse was overwhelmingly that the BG decides to initate the encounter, you will probably take a hit, and then you are in a gunfight. Return fre accuracy was terrible, too, and while about half who shot managed to get hits, I think there were only a couple of "kill" shots during the whole week on BGs during the reactive scenarios. The BGs only managed a couple of "kill" shots, though, when you factored in body armor.

Stats tell us that BGs almost always initiate the gunfight, and that they get the first shot off with 91% accuracy, and the cops return fire with 41% accuracy. Gunfights typically start with an officer getting shot. Stats also tell us that a GSW that is not instantly fatal is survivable 98% of the time, if you don't give up and the BG walks over and plants one in your skull. Action is far, far quicker than reaction.

You are taking what I said out of context.  If you are stopped because you violated a law and I as I approach the vehicle I see a weapon lying in the seat should I just ignore it or  look at it as a possible treat.  Do I know who you are or what you have been doing?  You are not being harassed because you have the weapon. You will most likely be placed in to custody and questioned about why you have the "weapon wrapped in a towel lying in the front seat" and if you have a good reason then you will be free to go.  I will never say I am sorry for doing my job.

It is amazing what people come up with.

srt205

EASY!
Calculated to alarm - obviously if I am not intending to threaten it is not "calculated to alarm".  Waving it around pointing it at people and making obvious threats would fall under this category.

I'm talking about disorderly conduct, I'm not talking about illegally searching you, your home, or vehicle.  I am talking about making sure that you are legally carrying a weapon, if it found that everything is good to go then you go about your way.  If you are carrying a handgun in the open on your hip then you will go to jail for UCW not disorderly conduct, but there are different circumstances in every case.

srt205

So are you saying "I can beat the rap, but I can't beat the ride?"

This is quite subjective.  The law you quote says "A person commits an offense if he knowingly and intentionally displays a firearm or other deadly weapon in a public place in a manner calculated to alarm."

The key words being "in a manner calculated to alarm."  How do you prove someone displayed a weapon in a manner calculated to alarm others?  This phrase could be stretched to include any display of any portion of any firearm in public.

The guy in the story who was walking down the street with a shotgun isn't necessarily trying to alarm anyone.  Like the other post said, just because someone is scared by my actions doesn't mean that I intended to scare them.  In order to be in violation of this law, you must INTEND to scare (alarm).  Obviously, if the guy is waiving the weapon around in a threatening manner, he is intending to alarm.  It doesn't sound like that's what happened, though.

According to my metric inclination, 300 Lbs is about 136 kg.

Kilograms are heavier than pounds.

And.....here is the kicker....

INTENT IS IMPOSSIBLE TO PROVE.  It is like predicting the future.  You only know about the "intent" after a crime has occured.  One example of such a crime would be waving a gun around and making threats.

Yep. I was thinking backwards.