"A woman came into one of our services a couple of weeks ago in a wheelchair, crippled by artritis in her legs. Her joints were swolen and misshapen.

She left that service PUSHING her wheelchair with her joints in perfect condition and as healthy as a teenager's. Her doctor (more of an expert than Penn or Teller) couldn't explain it.

But you must remember that God is not a trained seal who will bark on command. He performs the miraculous in response to FAITH."





was this on the 700 club?

Chris

Quoted: "That's faith - belief in something without logical proof." Any you have much more faith than the common christian, believing that nothing started the world without logical proof.

Not quite...

Faith doesn't require an explanation.  If you are a creationist, no more need be found out, as the bible is your blueprint.  

However, we are aware of the limits of our knowledge and actively seek the proof you are talking about, and science is the vehicle.  There is pleny of physical data found over the centuries that points to a lack of the invisible hand of a diety.   As time goes by, more data will be obtained.

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: I do find it interesting, however, that the Bible accurately predicts every objection to the faith and every trick used to dminish it with such accuracy. One could almost say it is a sign.... one could also call it good editing If I write a book as the Easter Bunny and say anyone who doesn't believe in the Easter Bunny is an evil doer, would you see THAT as a sign as well? ?? That analogy doesn't even make sense. The Bible doesn't just blanketly call non-believers evil doers, but it discerns the thoughts and intents of their hearts. I have found that the Bible is accurate about the attacks against the faith, and the motivations prompting those attacks, so accurate it is scary sometimes. Pat Robertson is not secretly editing the Bible to be accurate about the events and attitudes of today without anyone knowing. It has said the same things for 2,000 years, and remarkably it is as accurate today as it ever has been.

Of course it doesn't make sense to you.  You don't believe in anything as silly as the Easter Bunny....

Quoted: Give a man a fish, and he'll eat for a day.  Give him a religion, and he'll starve to death while praying for a fish.

Quoted: Quoted: Got blinders? Your statement is predicated on the belief in the god being discussed.   No its not. Say that Javic is the real God. (I just made that up) For me to say "God doesn't exist" presumes I am superior to Javic. Which makes me God. Thus BOTH deists AND atheists  beleive in a god. The SIMPLEST of logic.

Dude, Look at what you're saying.  I say that it requires belief in the god at hand, and you respond that it doesn't.  Then, in the next sentence, your example starts with "Say that Javik is the real god".  

Again, non belief frustrates your example...

Quoted: thats logical IF you assume 1) there is a god 2) the god you worship is the ONLY god 3) everyone who is an atheist makes the positive statement that god does not exist the first 2 are unprovable assumptions and the last is just plain wrong thats a bit of logic on top of a base of pure faith If that works for you, then great.  Just don't expect "logic" like that to convince anyone other than someone who already believes.

Ummm....I don't know what dictionary you use, but usually when the prefix a is added to a word, it means the opposite of that word. So an atheist is really an a-theist. If a theist believes in the existence of God or gods, then an a-theist is one who disbelieves or denies the existence of God or gods.

Perhaps you mean agnostics, which are people who think themselves undecided on the whole question of God.

I will further postulate that if there is a God, there is only one. The concept of God (distinct from A god) is that He is the ultimate being to whom time and space do not apply. You cannot have multiple ultimate realities....

Quoted: "A woman came into one of our services a couple of weeks ago in a wheelchair, crippled by artritis in her legs. Her joints were swolen and misshapen. She left that service PUSHING her wheelchair with her joints in perfect condition and as healthy as a teenager's. Her doctor (more of an expert than Penn or Teller) couldn't explain it. But you must remember that God is not a trained seal who will bark on command. He performs the miraculous in response to FAITH." was this on the 700 club? Chris

No, it was in northwestern Virginia.

Amazing, isn't it, how people demand miracles as proof of God's existence and then turn right around and claim that they are all false.

You come up with an explanation on how a crippled woman can suddenly be able to walk a couple of hours later by merely sitting in a pew, and I will gladly listen.

Dismiss it if you want to. But there is at least one woman that you will never be able to convince. She has understanding and knowledge that you lack. What you speak of in remote and nebulous terms, she has seen with her own eyes. That is the kind of transformational experience that cannot be shaken.

Quoted: thats logical IF you assume 1) there is a god 2) the god you worship is the ONLY god 3) everyone who is an atheist makes the positive statement that god does not exist

Any possibility of discussion is over is you don't understand that the denotative definition of atheist means "someone who does NOT beleive in the existence of God."

Quoted: Quoted: thats logical IF you assume 1) there is a god 2) the god you worship is the ONLY god 3) everyone who is an atheist makes the positive statement that god does not exist the first 2 are unprovable assumptions and the last is just plain wrong thats a bit of logic on top of a base of pure faith If that works for you, then great.  Just don't expect "logic" like that to convince anyone other than someone who already believes. Ummm....I don't know what dictionary you use, but usually when the prefix a is added to a word, it means the opposite of that word. So an atheist is really an a-theist. If a theist believes in the existence of God or gods, then an a-theist is one who disbelieves or denies the existence of God or gods. Perhaps you mean agnostics, which are people who think themselves undecided on the whole question of God. I will further postulate that if there is a God, there is only one. The concept of God (distinct from A god) is that He is the ultimate being to whom time and space do not apply. You cannot have multiple ultimate realities....

wow you gave the correct definition and still don't see.  

Saying I lack a belief  in god means your an atheist.  (weak atheism)

Saying god does not exist makes you an atheist (strong atheism)

I am an agnostic because I believe in a proposition in relation to the amount of evidence to support it.  Since I don't see enough evidence to warrant belief in a supreme being, then I am also an atheist.

My agnosticism prevents me from taking the strong position because I don't believe you can prove an all powerful being does not exist to 100% certainty.

Simplifying agnostics as being undecided is an oversimplification.  In reality there is overlap between agnosticism and both theism and atheism.  Although agnostic theists are rarer.

Quoted: Dude, Look at what you're saying.  I say that it requires belief in the god at hand, and you respond that it doesn't.  Then, in the next sentence, your example starts with "Say that Javik is the real god".   Again, non belief frustrates your example...

No it does not.

For ANYONE to say God doesn't exist is to make a DEFINITIVE STATEMENT that that individual is God-like enuf to KNOW God doesn't exist. What I (garandman) personally beleives is IRRELEVANT.

GOD ALONE could know that no (other) God exists. To declare there is no God outside the non-believer is the same as that non-beleiver saying he possesses the god-like authority to declare no (other ) God exists - other than him in the god-like negative assertion he makes.

Disbeleif is the crux of my argument. Disbeleif is the exercising of assumed knowledge that the disbeleiver can assert "there is no God."

Quoted: Any possibility of discussion is over is you don't understand that the denotative definition of atheist means "someone who does NOT beleive in the existence of God."

no its someone who lacks a belief in god or denies the existence of god.

one is called weak atheism, the other strong atheism

Quoted: That guy Vincent Cheung uses philophical arguments to "prove" god exists.  There are hundreds of philisophical arguments that "prove" god does not exist as well.   Since Cheung starts from the position of "my arguments are true, you need to prove yours"  its impossible to have any kind of meaninful debate with him.   Of course the guy writing the letter sounds like an idiot as well /shrug  Just shows both atheists and theists can be equally stupid.

Why is it that when arguments are based on a presupposition of there being no God it is generally accepted as being a valid starting point, yet a Christian beginning from a presupposition of his existence is rejected for being "biased?"

My presuppositions entering into such a debate are based upon both my subjective experience and analysis of objective evidence.  In my search I have not "started at my conclusion" and selectively forced the "evidence" to fit my preferred outcome (like the Michael Moore school of journalism).

Careful consideration of my experience and the evidence, as objectively honest as I could be,  have led me to where I am.  I did not start out with an idea of "what I wanted my faith/beliefs to be", but through study, reason, and now I realize the guidance of the Holy Spirit, I have sought Truth.  Truth is what it is, and will not bend to conform to my whims.  When it is revealed your only choices are to accept or reject it.

At one time I did have a crisis of faith in which I questioned the validity of Christianity.  I had my doubts and was fully prepared to dump it if it was not supported by verifiable evidence.  All of the money I had donated to churches, the "fun" things I had given up, the friends who quit hanging out with me, and other personal sacrifices would be a total waste if it turned out to be a fairy tale.  I will not live my life for a lie.

After examining the evidence (there is a multitude of good, authoritative books on Christian apologetics) I have a firmer foundation than ever.

I am a convinced Christian.

I invite anyone interested in examining the evidence to check out books such as "More Than A Carpenter" and "Evidence That Demands A Verdict" by Josh McDowell, along with other such books on the topic.  

If you are not willing to examine the evidence from that side of the fence, you cannot honestly claim to be seeking Truth.  Take an honest look at it and see for yourself.

Quoted: You come up with an explanation on how a crippled woman can suddenly be able to walk a couple of hours later by merely sitting in a pew, and I will gladly listen.

Nobody is debating the effects of the power of the mind, manifested in this case from 'belief'.  An adrenaline rush during a fight or flight situation has been known to cause acts of superhuman strength.

In terms of this lady, I suspect she collapsed after the endorphins stopped flowing.  If she's still good to go, her illness had a large psychosomatic component in the first place.

Quoted: Quoted: "That's faith - belief in something without logical proof." Any you have much more faith than the common christian, believing that nothing started the world without logical proof. Not quite... Faith doesn't require an explanation.  If you are a creationist, no more need be found out, as the bible is your blueprint.   However, we are aware of the limits of our knowledge and actively seek the proof you are talking about, and science is the vehicle.  There is pleny of physical data found over the centuries that points to a lack of the invisible hand of a diety.   As time goes by, more data will be obtained.

DP,

Have you actually examined the scientific evidence presented by Intelligent Design proponents, or do you just dismiss it out of hand because it conflicts with your worldview?  Are evolutionists your source for opinions on creationists?  Why not look at the primary sources?

Quoted: no its someone who lacks a belief in god or denies the existence of god. one is called weak atheism, the other strong atheism

I need hielo's avatar with the spinning thing.

Whatever, dude.

Whatever.

Quoted: Quoted: Dude, Look at what you're saying.  I say that it requires belief in the god at hand, and you respond that it doesn't.  Then, in the next sentence, your example starts with "Say that Javik is the real god".   Again, non belief frustrates your example... No it does not. For ANYONE to say God doesn't exist is to make a DEFINITIVE STATEMENT that that individual is God-like enuf to KNOW God doesn't exist. What I (garandman) personally beleives is IRRELEVANT. GOD ALONE could know that no (other) God exists. To declare there is no God outside the non-believer is the same as that non-beleiver saying he possesses the god-like authority to declare no (other ) God exists - other than him in the god-like negative assertion he makes. Disbeleif is the crux of my argument. Disbeleif is the exercising of assumed knowledge that the disbeleiver can assert "there is no God."

not everyone makes that particular definitive statement

I would never say God does not exist.

I will say I don't believe in specific gods like Zeus, Apollo, Yawheh, and Allah.  They may in fact exist, but I don't see enough evidence to believe in them.  

Those are 2 very different statements which say very different things.

Do you believe in Odin gman?  How is that any different from an Odinist who doesn't believe in Yawheh?

Quoted: Come on Ricky, you knew this was going to pretty much incite a riot because pretty much every religion based thread does. So please, think before you post. Do it for the children...

You think the theist/atheist arguement incites riots? Ha! I got that beat. I can piss them both off equally and for the same reason. Wanna hear how?


I just tell them both that the purpose of religion and ritual is not that the Divine needs or wants our worship (how silly is that? An all-powerful, all-knowing being, ever-benevolent God needs our worship). The purpose of religion and ritual is to help the individual IDENTIFY with the Divine, not build a relationship with the Divine. One doesn't need to get closer to God. The Divine is already in you, atheist and theist alike. Believe it or not, like it or not. The only difference between atheist and theist is the side of the spectrum which they claim. They're both equally incorrect. They both have painfully limited views of the Divine and even more limited views of the potential of humanity.

And with all due respect to Eric, and O_P (where has he been lately, by the way?), I don't understand how most Christians, of any denomination, can not seek to understand their own symbolism. It's taken forgranted and it shouldn't be. One of my earliest memories is of a Catholic Easter Sunday mass. I must have fallen asleep (cut me some slack, I couldn't have been more than 5) and Father Leo's booming voice rang out during the homily, "The cross is not a symbol of death but a symbol of victory of life over death!" He was right, of course, but he never did get around to saying how. See... It's not because some specific human being was executed in a most horrific manner. Sheesh, how many people have been executed because of what they were? Lots. And it couldn't be just that he died because everyone does that eventually. And it couldn't be that he was the Son of God because we all are Sons and Daughters of God. It's not any of that. So how is the cross a symbol of victory over death?

Jesus Christ is a symbol, a metaphor. We've got the Jesus part, the human part who has a mother, bled, died and according to Mel Gibson invented the dinette set (though where he found that in the Gospels, I'd like to know). Then we have Christ the King, the white light enshrouded, wholly divine part. In Jesus Christ we have a true crossing of the human and the divine. We have a metaphor for every person who ever lived and died on this planet. We have an example.

The Cross, as a symbol, is actually pretty simple. I've just explained part of it. But why a t-shaped cross? An x-shaped cross would probably be more accurate, right? Or any number of other devices of crucifixion. But it's always t-shaped. Well, symbolically, where the intersection (of the human and the Divine) occurs is important. An x-shaped, or an equilateral cross would have placed that intersection at the center of the body. That's not where it occurs. That would make it of the body, carnal. The crossing of the human and the Divine occurs in the mind. It occurs at the level of the head. Is this getting clear now? Picture dang near every depiction of the Crucifixion and it will.

But why so gruesom of a death? How many of you, while watching The Passion, wept in sympathy? Or moreso, in empathy? Christ suffered because we all do, in many different ways. As the Buddha said, life is suffering. But in Christ we see that that suffering is temporary. That suffering is of this world. Another example.

Did Christ come to save us from our sins? Sure... The sins we commit against each other because when you sin against another person, you are indeed sinning against God. Why? Because that other person is God. Just like you are. Through the example of Jesus Christ, we are shown how not to do that. See? Make sense?

Was there really a Jesus who was crucified? Probably. But there was a Count Dracula too but that doesn't mean vampires are real. Mythologies grow up around real historical figures. Look at American Folklore for lots of examples of that.

I think I've rambled enough for one morning. I'm going to go put on my riot gear now.

Quoted: Quoted: "A woman came into one of our services a couple of weeks ago in a wheelchair, crippled by artritis in her legs. Her joints were swolen and misshapen. She left that service PUSHING her wheelchair with her joints in perfect condition and as healthy as a teenager's. Her doctor (more of an expert than Penn or Teller) couldn't explain it. But you must remember that God is not a trained seal who will bark on command. He performs the miraculous in response to FAITH." was this on the 700 club? Chris No, it was in northwestern Virginia. Amazing, isn't it, how people demand miracles as proof of God's existence and then turn right around and claim that they are all false. You come up with an explanation on how a crippled woman can suddenly be able to walk a couple of hours later by merely sitting in a pew, and I will gladly listen. Dismiss it if you want to. But there is at least one woman that you will never be able to convince. She has understanding and knowledge that you lack. What you speak of in remote and nebulous terms, she has seen with her own eyes. That is the kind of transformational experience that cannot be shaken.

Where's the video tape?

so what you're saying is this woman couldn't walk because of arthritis, had swollen joints etc and she was pushing her wheel chair and all that was gone after she left the church?


your explaination is below.


Chris

Quoted: I would never say God does not exist.

Then you are an agnostic, NOT an atheist.

BY DEFINITION, an atheist beleives DEFINITIVELY there is no God.

Get a dictionary, man.

Quoted: Do you believe in Odin gman?  How is that any different from an Odinist who doesn't believe in Yawheh?

The question does not rest on what we believe.  Believing in a deity will not make him exist if he is not really there.

My tithing, praying, Bible study, charitable works, etc., will not make Yahweh be there if He doesn't exist.

The logical other side of the coin is that all of your denial won't make Him go away if He does exist.

He is there and He is not silent.

As Yeshua said, "For him who has ears to hear..."

Most of the time the arguments I've heard against belief are not founded in the intellect, but rather in the will.  People refuse to consider His existence for various reasons.

Quoted: Quoted: no its someone who lacks a belief in god or denies the existence of god. one is called weak atheism, the other strong atheism I need hielo's avatar with the spinning thing. Whatever, dude. Whatever.

I've just included the first few paragraphs of this article.  You can find hundreds of articles discussing the differences.   This is a common discussion in atheist/agnostic groups.

atheism.about.com/library/FAQs/ath/blathq_strongweak.htm

Question:
I somtimes hear about "Weak Atheism" and "Strong Atheism." What is the difference between the two?

Response:
Atheism is commonly divided into two types: strong atheism and weak atheism. Although only two categories, this distinction manages to reflect the broad diversity which exists among atheists when it comes to their positions on the existence of gods.

Weak atheism, also sometimes referred to as implicit atheism, is simply another name for the broadest and most general conception of atheism: the absence of belief in any gods. A weak atheist is someone who lacks theism and who does not happen to believe in the existence of any gods - no more, no less. This is also sometimes called agnostic atheism because most people who self-consciously lack belief in gods tend to do so for agnostic reasons.

Strong atheism, also sometimes referred to as explicit atheism, goes one step further and involves denying the existence of at least one god, usually multiple gods, and sometimes the possible existence of any gods at all. Strong atheism is sometimes called "gnostic atheism" because people who take this position often incorporate knowledge claims into it - that is to say, they claim to know in some fashion that certain gods or indeed all gods do not or cannot exist.

Quoted: I just tell them both that the purpose of religion and ritual is not that the Divine needs or wants our worship (how silly is that? An all-powerful, all-knowing being, ever-benevolent God needs our worship).

Worship is an acknowledgement of who He is and who we are relative to Him.

It is not "ego stroking."

More later.  Gotta go.

Quoted: Quoted: I would never say God does not exist. Then you are an agnostic, NOT an atheist. BY DEFINITION, an atheist beleives DEFINITIVELY there is no God. Get a dictionary, man.

yet I don't believe in any gods, which also fits the definition of atheism.

"Disbelief in or denial of the existence of God or gods"

perhaps you should consult a dictionary

Quoted: Lemme put it this way - any Christian that CAN'T give an atheist an intellectual beatdown doesn't know his Scriptures very well. The existence of atheism is in itself a proof of the existence of God.

However unfortunate, this is not necessarily true. I've seen some tough debates between Christians and atheist, both with very convincing arguments (many contrived). The whole spectacle turns my stomach. Make no mistake, being an atheist does not prevent someone from being a scriptually savvy, intellectual giant.

Although all Christians are required to lead others to Christ, it is not a Christian's mission to berate or "beat down" someone else who claims to be an atheist. It's always good to exercise wisdom by preparing yourself in order to defend your beliefs, but not to argue with fools. This is good for no one. And yes, I am a Christian too.

G1X

What was the purpose of God placing humans on earth?  Was it to worship him?  I believe it was.  That's pretty fuckin conceited don't ya think?

70-80% of the world's population believes we, Americans/ Christians are going to hell.  The only reason you believe what you do is because of indoctrination.

If heaven is real define the "soul" for without the soul what's the point.

Accoring to the bible the world is several thousand years old.  How come we can carbon test wood and rock that existed for tens to hundreds of thousands of years?  And don't give me that "the lord works in mysterious ways".  Taht's aweak arguement.

Belief is belief there is no absolute.  Some of you "Christains "  need to get off you high horse and swallow a good dose of philosophy and rational thought.

You cannot prove God exists therefore no one knows if he does, you believe or you are unsure.

Food for thought.

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: I would never say God does not exist. Then you are an agnostic, NOT an atheist. yet I don't believe in any gods

Are reading what you post?? You would never say God doesn't exist, but you don't beleive in any Gods???

The ONLY possible explanation for this is that yopu lack the courage of your convictions, that you wouldn't speak what you beleive.




I was right before - no possibility of lucid discussion exists with you. And so I'm done with you in this thread. (which is your cue to say something mean and hateful about me)

Quoted: What was the purpose of God placing humans on earth?  Was it to worship him?  I believe it was.  That's pretty fuckin conceited don't ya think?

Absolutely.

And EXACTLY what a God SHOULD do.

Quoted: DP, Have you actually examined the scientific evidence presented by Intelligent Design proponents, or do you just dismiss it out of hand because it conflicts with your worldview?  Are evolutionists your source for opinions on creationists?  Why not look at the primary sources?

My kung fu is pretty weak in reality, as I don't go to sleep at night pondering the source of the universe.  I've merely got a tangential interest, and jump into the fire when these threads get going.

As far as intelligent design, I've heard some of the theories.  I'm of the opinion that this and other similar movments are a response to the reality of what science proves.  It's a way to align belief in god with modern science, whereas in the past, the bible stores (which I believe were always meant as parables) were taken as the perfect word of god.  The basic premise is that the odds are against the universe just 'happening'.  Order never coming from disorder, or something like that.  To them I say, look at the solar system.  Disorder was made into order over eons because of simple gravitational force.  

As far as bias, we are all biased as it's impossible to shed our frames of reference.  Christianity has some core flaws that need to be addressed prior to debating the details of the sources of the universe.  Namely: Original Sin and the need for saving.  So to answer your question, no I don't dismiss it out of hand, because some decent points can be made, but I do look at it with skepticisim.  

Quoted: Quoted: You come up with an explanation on how a crippled woman can suddenly be able to walk a couple of hours later by merely sitting in a pew, and I will gladly listen. Nobody is debating the effects of the power of the mind, manifested in this case from 'belief'.  An adrenaline rush during a fight or flight situation has been known to cause acts of superhuman strength. In terms of this lady, I suspect she collapsed after the endorphins stopped flowing.  If she's still good to go, her illness had a large psychosomatic component in the first place.

She is still walking just fine.

I am telling you that obviously deformed joints, joints deformed on X-rays and cat scans are now PERFECTLY HEALTHY on X-rays and MRI's and in looking at them. Where before they were so deteriorated they would not function, NOW they are perfectly fine. Where before it was obvious by looking at her knees and ankles WHY she was in a wheelchair, now her knees and joints look perfectly normal.

This was not psychosematic. Nor was it endorphans. She came in with a physical malady, an obvious one, that was so bad that she was crippled. It was OBVIOUS that she was crippled. Her inability to walk was medically documented as a physical handicap caused by a degenerative disease of the joints.

Now she walks just fine, with no trace of the disease that had made her life painful and robbed her of the ability to walk for over a year, and all of this happened in the space of a couple of hours. Damage in her that had accumulated for years is suddenly gone in a couple of hours.

Degenerative conditions like that do not get better with positive thinking and therapy. They can slow the progress of them, perhaps alleviate some of the pain of them, but science cannot fix them. Yet sitting in church the disease was not just slowed or her pain eased, but her condition was REVERSED.

Science is mute before such an event, having no explanation.

Quoted: Quoted: What was the purpose of God placing humans on earth?  Was it to worship him?  I believe it was.  That's pretty fuckin conceited don't ya think? Absolutely. And EXACTLY what a God SHOULD do.

OOPS!

[shaking my head]
I suppose we have to have "faith" that it actually happened.


Chris

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: You come up with an explanation on how a crippled woman can suddenly be able to walk a couple of hours later by merely sitting in a pew, and I will gladly listen. Nobody is debating the effects of the power of the mind, manifested in this case from 'belief'.  An adrenaline rush during a fight or flight situation has been known to cause acts of superhuman strength. In terms of this lady, I suspect she collapsed after the endorphins stopped flowing.  If she's still good to go, her illness had a large psychosomatic component in the first place. She is still walking just fine. I am telling you that obviously deformed joints, joints deformed on X-rays and cat scans are now PERFECTLY HEALTHY on X-rays and MRI's and in looking at them. Where before they were so deteriorated they would not function, NOW they are perfectly fine. Where before it was obvious by looking at her knees and ankles WHY she was in a wheelchair, now her knees and joints look perfectly normal. This was not psychosematic. Nor was it endorphans. She came in with a physical malady, an obvious one, that was so bad that she was crippled. It was OBVIOUS that she was crippled. Her inability to walk was medically documented as a physical handicap caused by a degenerative disease of the joints. Now she walks just fine, with no trace of the disease that had made her life painful and robbed her of the ability to walk for over a year, and all of this happened in the space of a couple of hours. Damage in her that had accumulated for years is suddenly gone in a couple of hours. Degenerative conditions like that do not get better with positive thinking and therapy. They can slow the progress of them, perhaps alleviate some of the pain of them, but science cannot fix them. Yet sitting in church the disease was not just slowed or her pain eased, but her condition was REVERSED. Science is mute before such an event, having no explanation.

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: What was the purpose of God placing humans on earth?  Was it to worship him?  I believe it was.  That's pretty fuckin conceited don't ya think? Absolutely. And EXACTLY what a God SHOULD do. OOPS!

That was intentional.

I can EASILY work with someone who acknowledges there may be a God (or Gods) , more so than with the arrogant loon trying to assert no God exists.(for the reasons explained in detail above)

Quoted: I can EASILY work with someone who acknowledges there may be a God (or Gods) , more so than with the arrogant loon trying to assert    no      God exists.(for the reasons explained in detail above)

Fixed it for ya

Chris

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: I would never say God does not exist. Then you are an agnostic, NOT an atheist. yet I don't believe in any gods Are reading what you post?? You would never say God doesn't exist, but you don't beleive in any Gods??? The ONLY possible explanation for this is that yopu lack the courage of your convictions, that you wouldn't speak what you beleive. I was right before - no possibility of lucid discussion exists with you. And so I'm done with you in this thread. (which is your cue to say something mean and hateful about me)

So to you there is no difference in the statements "I don't believe in Buddha" and "Buddha does not exist?"

one is a statement of personal belief, the other makes a positive claim

your personal definitions of atheism and agnosticism are not the standard definition.

p.s.  I wouldn't say anything mean or hateful about you.  Its not as if being wrong on a definition makes you a bad person.  



eta: I dislike strong atheists as much as you seem to.  I get into arguments with strong atheists because they think they can prove god doesn't exist.  The problem is the kind of proofs they accept are the same kind of proofs apologists use to prove god exists.   The question of god is one that will probably never be answered by science.   Anyone who thinks they can prove god exists or does not exist is a moron imo.   Such things have to be taken on faith.

Quoted: So to you there is no difference in the statements "I don't believe in Buddha" and "Buddha does not exist?"

The ONLY possible way that could hold is in someone who knows God exists, but doesn't beleive in Him.

I have no possibility of lucid discussion with a person who knows God exists, but chooses not to beleive in Him.

Its like Democrats who saw Bush's inauguration, but choose NOT to beleive he is President.  But worse even than that.

Quoted: What was the purpose of God placing humans on earth?  Was it to worship him?  I believe it was.  That's pretty fuckin conceited don't ya think? 70-80% of the world's population believes we, Americans/ Christians are going to hell.  The only reason you believe what you do is because of indoctrination. If heaven is real define the "soul" for without the soul what's the point. Accoring to the bible the world is several thousand years old.  How come we can carbon test wood and rock that existed for tens to hundreds of thousands of years?  And don't give me that "the lord works in mysterious ways".  Taht's aweak arguement. Belief is belief there is no absolute.  Some of you "Christains "  need to get off you high horse and swallow a good dose of philosophy and rational thought. You cannot prove God exists therefore no one knows if he does, you believe or you are unsure. Food for thought.

The email conversation in the original post contains many references that give great answers to the questions you post...

Christianity -is- totally in harmony with truely rational and philosphical thought....   Try reading the case for Christ...  or The Case for Faith.

Quoted: One of my friends in college wrote a paper that would actually prove the existence of God and leave no room to disagree.

Ah, I doubt it unless he's the most influential scientist/philosopher in the world.  Oh, and I'm and atheist.

Quoted: Quoted: "A woman came into one of our services a couple of weeks ago in a wheelchair, crippled by artritis in her legs. Her joints were swolen and misshapen. She left that service PUSHING her wheelchair with her joints in perfect condition and as healthy as a teenager's. Her doctor (more of an expert than Penn or Teller) couldn't explain it. But you must remember that God is not a trained seal who will bark on command. He performs the miraculous in response to FAITH." was this on the 700 club? Chris No, it was in northwestern Virginia. Amazing, isn't it, how people demand miracles as proof of God's existence and then turn right around and claim that they are all false. You come up with an explanation on how a crippled woman can suddenly be able to walk a couple of hours later by merely sitting in a pew, and I will gladly listen. Dismiss it if you want to. But there is at least one woman that you will never be able to convince. She has understanding and knowledge that you lack. What you speak of in remote and nebulous terms, she has seen with her own eyes. That is the kind of transformational experience that cannot be shaken.

Is it possible that there exists something in the world that we can't understand or explain? No, that can't be right...

I know--there's an invisible omnipotent being in the universe that is responsible for everything. This being has ten rules that we have to follow, and if we do, we'll spend eternity in a really great place. If we disobey, we'll judged by this being, and be sent for eternity to a horrible place where we'll be tortured for all time.

But he loves us.

And he needs money! God is all powerful and all knowing; he's just not too good with money.

God's existance can neither be proved nor disproved. Deal with it.

Quoted: Where's the video tape? so what you're saying is this woman couldn't walk because of arthritis, had swollen joints etc and she was pushing her wheel chair and all that was gone after she left the church? your explaination is below. Chris

There is no video. But the results are real.

Ignore them if you wish.

Your lack of faith does not revoke what happened to her.

Quoted: Quoted: So to you there is no difference in the statements "I don't believe in Buddha" and "Buddha does not exist?" The ONLY possible way that could hold is in someone who knows God exists, but doesn't beleive in Him.   wrong,  one of a myriad of possibilities is a person could look around at the world and see nothing that convinces him god is there and chooses not to believe.  You could have at least read the article I posted a bit from I have no possibility of lucid discussion with a person who knows God exists, but chooses not to beleive in Him.   I would agree.  I don't know any atheists or agnostics who fit that description though. The vast majority fall into the strong or weak atheism camps, which you say don't exist Its like Democrats who saw Bush's inauguration, but choose NOT to beleive he is President.  But worse even than that.

The very clear difference is the we have evidence of Bush having been made president.   There is no such clear cut evidence for the existence of any god or gods.

Quoted: God's existance can neither be proved nor disproved. Deal with it.

agreed, which is why I am an agnostic atheist.

should someone prove a deity exists I will become an agnostic theist
should someone prove no dieties exist (impossible to do, you can't prove a negative) then I will become a gnostic atheist

[ xfiles music]
ahhh, that blind faith thing again. Hmmmmm
no proof necessary?



Chris

Quoted: Quoted: Where's the video tape? so what you're saying is this woman couldn't walk because of arthritis, had swollen joints etc and she was pushing her wheel chair and all that was gone after she left the church? your explaination is below. Chris There is no video. But the results are real. Ignore them if you wish. Your lack of faith does not revoke what happened to her.

Quoted: "That's faith - belief in something without logical proof." Any you have much more faith than the common christian, believing that nothing started the world without logical proof.

And I said I didn't when?

"Note that atheism isn't a lack of faith, it's merely a lack of a belief in a god or gods."

My words.  It's best to quote everything; you can't just pick the parts you like.

Hey, look!

there's God over there.





Chris

Quoted: Is it possible that there exists something in the world that we can't understand or explain? No, that can't be right...

That is exactly the case. God exists, and He is not limited by human understanding and human intellect. The only way we know anything about Him is because He has carefully REVEALED Himself to us. Thus we can know about God those things that God has revealed about Himself.

Anything else is just theory.

I know--there's an invisible omnipotent being in the universe that is responsible for everything. This being has ten rules that we have to follow, and if we do, we'll spend eternity in a really great place. If we disobey, we'll judged by this being, and be sent for eternity to a horrible place where we'll be tortured for all time.

Who said He was invisible? I cannot see the wind, yet I can tell that it is real and see its effects on the earth, sometimes powerful enough to level entire cities. I may not be able to see Jesus at the moment I type this, but He HAS manifested Himself to me and to billions of others throughout history.

But he loves us.

Yes, He loves us. God does not send anyone to hell. God gave man dominion on the earth, and man instead bowed his knee to sin and iniquity. Every lie you have told, every act of anger or hatred, all of them are an affront to the moral order of God.

The King, being merciful, has made provision to forgive those that rebel against His authority. But when standing before the King's throne if you reject His offer of mercy, what is left for you but the fate proscribed by the law?

And he needs money! God is all powerful and all knowing; he's just not too good with money.

Ah, the old money thing. Amazing how often that comes up. I cannot speak for all denominations, but this much I know about my own: The vast majority of preachers in my denomination ARE NOT fully supported by the church. They work a full time job (or two) just to allow them to be in the ministry and provide for their family. The churches are mostly small, and the members mostly humble people of modest means.

You look at the large churches with full time pastoral staffs getting payed very well and pronounce religion corrupt. Tell me: Where were you when that same pastor was mopping floors to be able to support himself while being the pastor to a flock of God's people? Where were you when the mill workers who made up that church gave their entire meager paychecks to build a tiny building for them to worship in so they could do something besides stand in a field in 10 degree temperatures?

You look at the current state of a church and of a minister and say that they have it good. Certainly some churches and some of those who are ministers are false.

But the real ones have had to struggle and fight to get to where they are. They have faced things you weren't there to see, and that you didn't have to fight. So watch how you speak about them.

God's existance can neither be proved nor disproved. Deal with it.

With that attitude, God will never become real to you. God responds to faith and a yeilded and searching heart. Men must SEEK God. He does not show up for the petty trials held in the hearts of fallen men, to be judged by His own creation. God will not stoop so low as to be subject to the judgement of men, EVER.

But the broken and yielded heart who searches for Him with everything in them WILL find Him. God responds to the hungry heart, not the one that is full of themselves or the world and who makes demands of Him.

If you get the right heart, God WILL make Himself real to you. Seek, and you will find.

Quoted: [ xfiles music] ahhh, that blind faith thing again. Hmmmmm no proof necessary?

Proof IS necessary. I would not serve a God I did not know was real.

But in your current moral and spiritual condition, there is no way for you to understand what I am talking about.

" 20Where is the wise? Where is the scribe? Where is the disputer of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of this world? 21For since, in the wisdom of God, the world through wisdom did not know God, it pleased God through the foolishness of the message preached to save those who believe. 22For Jews request a sign, and Greeks seek after wisdom; 23but we preach Christ crucified, to the Jews a stumbling block and to the Greeks[2] foolishness, 24but to those who are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God. 25Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men, and the weakness of God is stronger than men.

7But God has chosen the foolish things of the world to put to shame the wise, and God has chosen the weak things of the world to put to shame the things which are mighty; 28and the base things of the world and the things which are despised God has chosen, and the things which are not, to bring to nothing the things that are, 29that no flesh should glory in His presence. 30But of Him you are in Christ Jesus, who became for us wisdom from God--and righteousness and sanctification and redemption-- 31that, as it is written, "He who glories, let him glory in the LORD."[3]"

1st Corinthians 1

the last respite of one of the "saved"

typing quotes from the bible .

All jeebus.


hope it works out for you, really I do,  but I'll wait on the soothing blackness of death I felt twice before.
I've been "there" have you?

last but not least. do you have anything that can corroborate your miracle of the now wheel chair pushing perfect health lady or not?<<<this is a simple yes or no answer. either you do or you do not.
Seems to me if God helped her so, she'd have documentation availible for all to see.

Chris

Quoted: There is no video. But the results are real. Ignore them if you wish. Your lack of faith does not revoke what happened to her.

agreed, what happened to her is real.

Just as real as a person who takes a placebo being cured for no reason science can explain.
Just as real as a Buddhist who prays for a cure and is miraculously healed.
Just as real as the Muslim who prays to Allah for his sick child and sees her recover.
Just as real as the faith healer who puts ringers in the show to bilk honest believers out of their money.
Just as real as the atheist who places his trust in the doctor who cures his cancer.

The difference of opinion is in the meaning of her cure.

Quoted: the last respite of one of the "saved" typing quotes from the bible .

The Bible is my ONLY respite. All of my hope is invested in the truth contained within that book, and the God who spoke it. Without the God of that Bible or the word to instruct me, I have no foundation. Given that the Bible is the revelation of God's word and will to mankind, exactly what do you EXPECT a Christian to refer to? Encyclopedia Britanica?

hope it works out for you, really I do,  but I'll wait on the soothing blackness of death I felt twice before. I've been "there" have you?

You have been dead twice? Embalmed twice? Entombed twice? And yet you live?

I thought so. You have had near death experiences where you lost consciousness in moments of medical emergency. So have I. Passing out from loss of blood can indeed seem soothing. You get cold, and then you get really warm and then it all goes black. Been there.

But if you are alive, then it hardly means that you experienced the permanence of death. If you did, you would not be typing this.

BTW -- Drug use tends to bring on experiences like this, and you might find you live longer if you give them up.

last but not least. do you have anything that can corroborate your miracle of the now wheel chair pushing perfect health lady or not? Seems to me if God helped her so, she'd have documentation availible for all to see.

As I explained before, there is no video showing this happening. Since I am not her doctor, I don't have her X-rays and MRI results handy. There is nothing I can post at this moment to demonstrate the truth to you conclusively. I could get the results and try to put them on the web, but then you would just claim that they are somehow forged....

You begin from the proposition of a closed mind, and even if I was to introduce you to the lady this happened to, you would not believe. The Pharisees saw Jesus heal the blind and the maimed before their eyes. And yet they did not believe. When your eyes are closed, they are closed, and you see no light.