Never try to justify/explain/argue why you do something different from someone else. Does it work for you, have you tried multiple alternatives, do people get irritated that you do it that way?

If it works use it.

If your arms are long enough.

You know it's funny I run in to this exact same argument at the firehouse about nozzle control. Some of the old dinosaurs like to choke up on the hose and I argue about getting it out in front.

I can tell from the pixels and I've seen a lot of shops in my day.

BTDT will speak for itself. It still works.

Lots of BTDTs use that technique besides Costa. I got a lot of old ass shit that still works, no argument there. But whatever works best for YOU. I wouldn't say your way is retarded...maybe inferior

Apparently the bromance continues...



and of course there is no a longer don't ask, don't tell doctrine!

Really? Care to take this to IM?

Edit: User's inbox is full.

Will not be holding my AR in this fashion

Especially desk pops

 

T-rex arms?

Empty and you are welcome to IM if you'd like but not interested in an internet pissing match over a shooting stance if that's the goal.

 

Shit works well if you apply it correctly.

Well, you never responded, but another member here articulated it better than I could, so I'll just leave this here:Now tell me about those BTDT's that you say many have used that technique.

Being overly attached to or opposed to any way to hold a rifle is small-minded. No battle was ever won because fighters were holding their rifles on the magwell, or with their arm extended.

This technique is only a way to control the rifle better. It's the same reason you try to maintain a very high hold on your pistol.

ETA: GSL, many high speed folks have been doing it way before magpul. Don't get trapped in the 'if my drill sergeant didn't do it, it's stupid' mindset that so many mil guys do.

I shoot that way sometimes, sometimes I don't. It's just another way. I never do it with my arm fully extended out with my elbow up like that though.

Just use whatever is comfortable and quit worrying about the way you grip. As long as your hands and arms are in a safe position.

I thought the Scorpion Grip was the latest thing.

Did I say it didn't, I know you know more than me on this subject, I'm not arguing that.  This works for me, I'm 6'4" for Christ sakes I could grip the damn thing at the muzzle if felt inclined to do so. I'm not some high speed low drag guy, I don't clear houses, I jump shot hogs and coyotes in the woods back home, and it is an 18" barreled MA-10, not some easy recoiling carbine. For snap shots ill stick with it.

And for the record, a guy who picked it up in Rhodesia showed it to me before Costa made it popular, so you could say he had BTDT.

Fuck it I can't sleep anyway, what do you want him to do give you the guys contact info. Quit being a selfrighous chode and stop trying to belittle people over the way they hold their damn rifle. We get it you're a kickass motherfucker, a real deal fucking gunfighter. We/I are not, so why would we do what you do?

What works is better than what is comfortable.



 

A little note on Costa "just being a coastie." his job in the coast guard had him go through all the SEALs shooting courses. So the guy does have a little more experience shooting than most people, military included. Maybe he hasn't been in a gunfight that we know of. But honestly how many of our military members were getting into gunfights before 2001? That didn't null and void their knowledge. I think maybe private industry and the civi world may be one step ahead of the military at times due to less constraints put on them, the encouragement to think outside of what you are told as well as not having to deal with the shear size of implementing any kind of change if it doesn't have anything to do with the latest stealth, UAV or ship.

I carried over the old school magwell hold from the Marines when I
started playing in action shooting.  I refused to try the "costa" 3 gun
style for a long time until i remembered that there is NO REASON to
stagnate in training.  It took time trying, but once I got it down it
was a dramatic improvement.  The whole thing is intended for long hand guards or rails.  It won't work on a carbine like it will on a rifle.  I have a year of shooting every week that was scored and time, and I could track my improvement using the "costa" (3 gun) grip.



 

Too late, a multitude of run and gunners (possibly better than I), have verified it as effective. I am by no means, high speed low drag, though I prefer, support elbow slightly tucked with the strongside elbow close to the bottom rib.  








 

You tell 'em Jungle.


There are some things I'll question Costa on... That grip is not one of them. It works well. I resisted it for a long time... But fact is, it is one of the best techniques out there.

I would have to agree. The situation usually would dictate how I hold the rifle, but having the hand farther out does help. I too don't do it to the degree as some with the elbow contorted out and up.

 

"OLD SCHOOL MAGWELL HOLD"? Is that, SOI? In MCT we were instructed to hold the rifle by the handguards with our forward hand, while creating a triangle between the weapon, our forearm and body.








 

Hipster tactical.....  Whodathunkit?

I used to choke up, but gave the fire-hose grip a shot after watching Kyle Lamb. I have subdued it a bit, but I still like having my arm out rather than in when shooting up close (flashlight distance). Shooting for longer distance is another matter, but that requires taking a knee or going prone do do correctly.

I'm kind of in a shitty mood tonight, so of you're joking or being sarcastic please say so now before I unload just a fucking straight mega ton of ass rape.



 

You don't have to use that grip, but it's not stupid.

I'm not sure it's possible to do this without the fire-hose grip.

Be it as you may, I incurred my initial training in 00. I was never deployed to AFG, but did seven months in Al Kut and  another 8 in Al Fallujah.








 

Long grips for.....long tits?

That whole time you never saw the magwell grip? I saw it, and I was in from 03-07.

Shitty mood or not, I was never introduced to that method.








 

Ofcourse I saw it!!! We were NEVER taught to hold the magazine well.








 

Go figure. I saw SOI instructors doing it. Those were the times, I guess.

I will STILL do it if my gun is too hot.

Says the guy with the bumpfire stock.

That's a whole 'nother kind of grip...

Edit: I grip that gun back toward the delta ring due to weight and bipod. I try to be flexible and not worry too much about doing things a certain way.

When you think about it, the magwell hold puts a lot weight (especially with a 20") way out there, it's going to induce a lot of large figure 8's.

Controlling the muzzle as much as possible, makes a lot more sense.

So, here's the deal.
I also joined in 2000, and yes was introduced to using a magwell grip during the MOUT package at ITB in SOI by our lead instructor, who previously had been part of SOTG's MOUT/CQB cadre.





We used it exclusively for that.  That training and use and instruction went on through the fleet and other MOUT/CQB instruction packages.  Probably because as Infantry we were training to fight in said style.  
MCT, especially in the year 2000 before the GWOT kicked off, was a feel good package for non-Infantry to get to play with all the toys the Infantry has that it was assumed you'd never see again (because anyone in a Non-Infantry position that needs to use them as their job would get OTJ training).  
ITB and MCT instructors as I recall were mostly guys getting out or broke dicks waiting to get back to the fleet.  The level of training received by students is directly influenced by the motivation of the instructors.   You can get a guy that wants to just put checks in boxes, or you can have an instructor like I did that is excited about what he knows, and wants to share it and crank out bad asses.  What I learned in my MOUT package in SOI to this day is roughly what is still done by SF and SoF units.  They have a lot more "flow" and less set piece stuff going on, but the fundamentals are still very similar. (There was an incident a long while back about training in the early days of the GWOT, where had the person had the same training I did, their life would be a lot different, and the shit thing our roles could have been easily reversed).  
I'm not discounting your training, or anything you did after that, I'm just saying keep it in perspective.  Just because you didn't learn something specific, doesn't mean you should have, OR also, maybe no one thought you needed too...
Long story short, you learned one thing.  I learned another.  It sounds like what you learned was a traditional rifle shooting posture, while I learned the "de jour" CQB posture.
Now lets look at training, and pushback to new concepts.  
You say you were never instructed to use a magwell grip, yet you saw it in use.   Did you ever stop to think "hey, wonder whey they never taught me that"?  Did you ever try it yourself to see if it worked better than what you were currently doing?
That's why I LOVE threads like this.   Everyone loves to bag on the "magpul style" even now that it's been years, and many, many people have seen the benefits of it, if even only in it's niche.   (3 gun, playing bad ass at a  carbine course slaying cardboad)
In research and development, sometimes you have to try shit you know doesn't work, or don't think it will work in order to move on.  Sometimes you get a surprise, and find out things actually DO work well.
Having grown up a rather FUDD existence shooting, the magwell grip BLEW MY MIND.  So quick, so snappy.  You could have the muzzle down, bust a corner pop up and slay targets in heatbeats.  Later as a civvie as I mentioned, the costa grip hit the public eye and I htought "phht gay, magwell grip is the way to go".
Because that's what I learned.  
So I was defensive.
Then a member here told me to try it, and it dawned on me, as an instructor I had been telling people for about a year that "be open to new concepts, try new things, don't stagnate... adapt or die".
So I tried it, and became a better shooter because of it (in the role it's meant for).  
If it wasn't for trying new styles, experimenting, and pushing the state of the art, we'd still be shooting pistols with one hand, because using two hands is for women, and shooting rifles like we're on the offhand stage of a highpower match.
TL;DR  Everyone should try shit before they bag on it, and just because you learned one way, doesn't mean it's the best way.
 
 

Plus as you can see in the video, the magwell grip creates a pivot point for the rifle (Not as much of an issue in a 20" AR/ M-16A2).  Putting my arm farther out takes away that pivot point.





(Gun is a 1st gen AR-180 with A1 birdcage flash hider)



 

Another way to think of it, is it literally gives you more leverage on the gun. This has a few disadvantages actually (a tad slower to bring the gun up, slightly slower extreme target transitions, etc). But a lot of advantages that I really like (more precise muzzle control, far better recoil management).

Plus it lets me get my hand closer to my light, which needs to be pretty far forward if you detest muzzle shadows.

Just my observations.

Madcap. You should save that post in a Google doc for later use. It's 100% spot on.

In watching your vids, one thing thing also becomes apparent regarding that pivot point.

A person using the magwell grip is allowing the recoil to control the muzzle climb, then most likely over compensating to bring it back down or even delaying the shot a bit until they are on target.

Controlling the muzzle from the git-go in the second vid is a night vs day difference.

To be honest I used to "eye roll" the fanboys, and bust on Costa being "dynamic" with an M60 (because Costa would do it with a sling-shot even given the chance).

The science is there, people just need to look past the Magpul/Recoil lifestyle BS and put it to use.

You know, I had the same thought on disadvantages right up until the 3rd or 4th week I shot it (after weeks of dryfire training).

It's way fucking faster.  It's that same leverage you mention gives you much more precise control of the momentum of the gun.



Bringing the gun up and target to target is faster because you can STOP faster.   That's the key point people miss out on, and don't realize is what they are making fun of for the "drive the gun" concept.





You "drive the gun" to the target.  Not past, or before, but to it and stop.  Watching a lot of people shoot, and I used to do it too, it's easy to fling the gun past a target, then wiggle it back into where you want to hit.





It's a LOT harder to stop dead on target, pull the trigger, then drive on.





Then again, REALLY good shooters never stop, they break the trigger as the sight sweeps into the target, then follow though to the next.   Maybe one day I'll get there.





 

Is there another cockpocalypse on? It may be time to log out...