China and Japan not going to buy any U.S. long tem debt... - Page 2

[ARCHIVED THREAD] - China and Japan not going to buy any U.S. long tem debt... (Page 2 of 2)

Posted: 6/16/2009 4:35:59 PM EDT

[#1]

Good. Most of you all don't like the thought China owning the biggest chunk of US debt in the first place, so news they won't be buying more debt is good news.

Posted: 6/16/2009 4:36:32 PM EDT

[#2]

The upside to this is that American will have to go back to manufacturing things that it wants to buy. Manufacturing is the engine that pulls the economy along, it is not the result of it.

Posted: 6/16/2009 4:43:46 PM EDT

[#3]

Quoted:

Quoted:

China and Japan are going to be buying less US debt... but not for the reasons you mention.

Ask yourself, where does the savings that China/Japan lends us come from?

From us buying their products.

And what happens if the US consumer stops buying their products and saves the money instead? (as is happening now) Does the financial system die?

No. Because the money is indirectly coming from us in the first place.

China/Japan are overrated, their economies live vicarously through our consumers. The only money they lend us is the money that we bought their products with and is recycled back to us. What is happening now? we are no longer buying their products (China's exports are down 26%, Japan down 40%+) and the money that would have spent on their products (and then lent back to us) is just being saved (lent to ourselves) in the first place.

China/Japan depends on us far more than we do on them. People place far to much importance on their shell economy.

This is my opinion as well. To get to the root of the sitiuation just look at which which way the capital is flowing. The U.S. is their employer.

Yep.

People continually underestimate how important the US is to the global economy. It reminds me of the "decoupling" nonsense floating around this time last year...

This sounds like famous last words. It sounds like what the Emperors of Rome must have said with the Barbarians massing a few hills over.

Look, the cosmos is not favoring the U.S. over any other country. The simple fact is that we, as a country, managed to produce more via a free society than other countries have in the last 100 years or so. Thus, we became "rich". We did not become "rich" by consuming - a ideology a lot of so-called economists seem to be pushing.

We, as a nation, are not producing as much as we used to. We outsourced it. Now other countries are producing much more than they used to. This means that, eventually, maybe not tomorrow, but someday, we will no longer be top dog.

...unless we pull our collective heads out of our ass, stop stupid spending for spending's sake and get back to making stuff.

1) Does the term comparative advantage mean anything to you? -Yes. However, such an advantage can be whittled down with time. Like if we do not produce anything for awhile.

2) Does my sigline mean anything to you? -Yes. It means that you are trying to make people believe your opinion without supporting your arguement.

Now we are getting somewhere. Please explain for us the CORRECT ratio of manufacturing to non-manufacturing jobs in an economy that will prosper for the long term.

Chop chop.

While you are at it, please answer the following question: What nation manufactures the most BY VALUE of any nation on the planet? Which nation is number one in manufacturing value-added?

ETA: Do you "make stuff" for a living?

Posted: 6/16/2009 4:51:51 PM EDT

[#4]

Quoted:

Quoted:

I see my sigline is still broken. Oh well...

No, it's just that no one gives a damn about the opinion of a lettered anarchist. Talk about irony. He would have fared better as a comedian.

Whether one agrees with Rothbard's economics does nothing to detract from the truth of the statement I quoted. I can point to half a dozen threads in the first 2 pages of GD at any time to demonstrate Rothbard was correct in this regard. This is just one among many.

Hell...

I don't agree with the man's economics...

But I do agree with that statement, and see how it applies here...

(And yes, I fully expect the YouTube-U 'educated' economists to make some stupid comment about it applying to me... It doesn't - I am in no way ignorant of economics...)

Posted: 6/16/2009 4:52:39 PM EDT

[#5]

Quoted:

Quoted:

China and Japan are going to be buying less US debt... but not for the reasons you mention.

Ask yourself, where does the savings that China/Japan lends us come from?

From us buying their products.

And what happens if the US consumer stops buying their products and saves the money instead? (as is happening now) Does the financial system die?

No. Because the money is indirectly coming from us in the first place.

China/Japan are overrated, their economies live vicarously through our consumers. The only money they lend us is the money that we bought their products with and is recycled back to us. What is happening now? we are no longer buying their products (China's exports are down 26%, Japan down 40%+) and the money that would have spent on their products (and then lent back to us) is just being saved (lent to ourselves) in the first place.

China/Japan depends on us far more than we do on them. People place far to much importance on their shell economy.

This is my opinion as well. To get to the root of the sitiuation just look at which which way the capital is flowing. The U.S. is their employer.

Yep.

People continually underestimate how important the US is to the global economy. It reminds me of the "decoupling" nonsense floating around this time last year...

This sounds like famous last words. It sounds like what the Emperors of Rome must have said with the Barbarians massing a few hills over.

Look, the cosmos is not favoring the U.S. over any other country. The simple fact is that we, as a country, managed to produce more via a free society than other countries have in the last 100 years or so. Thus, we became "rich". We did not become "rich" by consuming - a ideology a lot of so-called economists seem to be pushing.

We, as a nation, are not producing as much as we used to. We outsourced it. Now other countries are producing much more than they used to. This means that, eventually, maybe not tomorrow, but someday, we will no longer be top dog.

...unless we pull our collective heads out of our ass, stop stupid spending for spending's sake and get back to making stuff.

1) Does the term comparative advantage mean anything to you? -Yes. However, such an advantage can be whittled down with time. Like if we do not produce anything for awhile.

2) Does my sigline mean anything to you? -Yes. It means that you are trying to make people believe your opinion without supporting your arguement.

If you are uttering the line 'not producing anything' then you do not understand 'comparative advantage'.

Posted: 6/16/2009 4:55:21 PM EDT

[#6]

Quoted:

Quoted:
China and Japan are going to be buying less US debt... but not for the reasons you mention.

Ask yourself, where does the savings that China/Japan lends us come from?

From us buying their products.

And what happens if the US consumer stops buying their products and saves the money instead? (as is happening now) Does the financial system die?

No. Because the money is indirectly coming from us in the first place.

China/Japan are overrated, their economies live vicarously through our consumers. The only money they lend us is the money that we bought their products with and is recycled back to us. What is happening now? we are no longer buying their products (China's exports are down 26%, Japan down 40%+) and the money that would have spent on their products (and then lent back to us) is just being saved (lent to ourselves) in the first place.

China/Japan depends on us far more than we do on them. People place far to much importance on their shell economy.

This is my opinion as well. To get to the root of the sitiuation just look at which which way the capital is flowing. The U.S. is their employer.

Yep.

People continually underestimate how important the US is to the global economy. It reminds me of the "decoupling" nonsense floating around this time last year...

This sounds like famous last words. It sounds like what the Emperors of Rome must have said with the Barbarians massing a few hills over.

Look, the cosmos is not favoring the U.S. over any other country. The simple fact is that we, as a country, managed to produce more via a free society than other countries have in the last 100 years or so. Thus, we became "rich". We did not become "rich" by consuming - a ideology a lot of so-called economists seem to be pushing.

We, as a nation, are not producing as much as we used to. We outsourced it. Now other countries are producing much more than they used to. This means that, eventually, maybe not tomorrow, but someday, we will no longer be top dog.

...unless we pull our collective heads out of our ass, stop stupid spending for spending's sake and get back to making stuff.

1) Does the term comparative advantage mean anything to you? -Yes. However, such an advantage can be whittled down with time. Like if we do not produce anything for awhile.
2) Does my sigline mean anything to you? -Yes. It means that you are trying to make people believe your opinion without supporting your arguement.

Now we are getting somewhere. Please explain for us the CORRECT ratio of manufacturing to non-manufacturing jobs in an economy that will prosper for the long term. -I do not know, but I know it is not ZERO (which is where we are headed becasue we are driving companies that produce stuff overseas with heavy taxes and over-regulation).

Chop chop.

While you are at it, please answer the following question: What nation manufactures the most BY VALUE of any nation on the planet? Which nation is number one in manufacturing value-added? -This is a trick question, becasue while the answer is "The U.S." it does not illustrate trendlines. We are producing less and other nations are producing more. If this continues, eventually, they will produce more than us.

ETA: Do you "make stuff" for a living? Yup- engineer

Now let me ask you a question: Do you really believe that the Chinese will continue to make stuff for us, send it over here for us to buy with IOUs just so they can have have those IOUs to lend back to us...so we can buy more of their stuff...all while we sit on our asses and do no make anything ourselves? How about after 100 years? Do think the Chinese will continue working for promises or will they simply say, "Screw you and your worthless money! We're going to make cars, computers, spaceships etc and use them ourselves!"

In other words, if they can make everything themselves and we do not make anything, why would they do anything for us at all? Charity?

Posted: 6/16/2009 5:41:01 PM EDT

[#7]

Thanks God someone woke up finally. They figured : we cannot move the States to Asia anyway.

Posted: 6/16/2009 5:47:05 PM EDT

[#8]

Quoted:

Quoted:

China and Japan are going to be buying less US debt... but not for the reasons you mention.

Ask yourself, where does the savings that China/Japan lends us come from?

From us buying their products.

And what happens if the US consumer stops buying their products and saves the money instead? (as is happening now) Does the financial system die?

No. Because the money is indirectly coming from us in the first place.

China/Japan are overrated, their economies live vicarously through our consumers. The only money they lend us is the money that we bought their products with and is recycled back to us. What is happening now? we are no longer buying their products (China's exports are down 26%, Japan down 40%+) and the money that would have spent on their products (and then lent back to us) is just being saved (lent to ourselves) in the first place.

China/Japan depends on us far more than we do on them. People place far to much importance on their shell economy.

This is my opinion as well. To get to the root of the sitiuation just look at which which way the capital is flowing. The U.S. is their employer.

Yep.

People continually underestimate how important the US is to the global economy. It reminds me of the "decoupling" nonsense floating around this time last year...

This sounds like famous last words. It sounds like what the Emperors of Rome must have said with the Barbarians massing a few hills over.

Look, the cosmos is not favoring the U.S. over any other country. The simple fact is that we, as a country, managed to produce more via a free society than other countries have in the last 100 years or so. Thus, we became "rich". We did not become "rich" by consuming - a ideology a lot of so-called economists seem to be pushing.

We, as a nation, are not producing as much as we used to. We outsourced it. Now other countries are producing much more than they used to. This means that, eventually, maybe not tomorrow, but someday, we will no longer be top dog.

...unless we pull our collective heads out of our ass, stop stupid spending for spending's sake and get back to making stuff.

1) Does the term comparative advantage mean anything to you? -Yes. However, such an advantage can be whittled down with time. Like if we do not produce anything for awhile.

2) Does my sigline mean anything to you? -Yes. It means that you are trying to make people believe your opinion without supporting your arguement.

Now we are getting somewhere. Please explain for us the CORRECT ratio of manufacturing to non-manufacturing jobs in an economy that will prosper for the long term. -I do not know, but I know it is not ZERO (which is where we are headed becasue we are driving companies that produce stuff overseas with heavy taxes and over-regulation).

Chop chop.

While you are at it, please answer the following question: What nation manufactures the most BY VALUE of any nation on the planet? Which nation is number one in manufacturing value-added? -This is a trick question, becasue while the answer is "The U.S." it does not illustrate trendlines. We are producing less and other nations are producing more. If this continues, eventually, they will produce more than us.

ETA: Do you "make stuff" for a living? Yup- engineer

Now let me ask you a question: Do you really believe that the Chinese will continue to make stuff for us, send it over here for us to buy with IOUs just so they can have have those IOUs to lend back to us...so we can buy more of their stuff...all while we sit on our asses and do no make anything ourselves? How about after 100 years? Do think the Chinese will continue working for promises or will they simply say, "Screw you and your worthless money! We're going to make cars, computers, spaceships etc and use them ourselves!"

In other words, if they can make everything themselves and we do not make anything, why would they do anything for us at all? Charity?

Engineers don't "make stuff." They design stuff. My previous employer Manufactured several billion per year of electronics in China. Almost all of it was designed in the US. You are a knowledge worker, not a "maker."

Let's look at your "in a hundred years" statement in the other direction. In 1909 what proportion of the US workforce worked in agriculture? Manufacturing? High tech? Oh, that's right. High tech did not exist. All those folks who work at Intel and AMD fab plants in the US are doing job that did not exist 100 years ago. Same with web designers. And computer programmers. And rocket scientists. And jet engine builders And biotech engineers... You get the picture.

Posted: 6/16/2009 6:11:45 PM EDT

[#9]

Quoted:
The upside to this is that American will have to go back to manufacturing things that it wants to buy. Manufacturing is the engine that pulls the economy along, it is not the result of it.

How long is that going to take?

We've spent the last 30 years moving everything offshore. I don't have that kind of time anymore!

Posted: 6/16/2009 6:30:36 PM EDT

[#10]

Look at industry trends...

First, since I'm in MI, let's look at cars. GM and Chrysler are toast. China might take 10-20 years, but they're on track to produce decent cars at a fraction of the cost of ANY competitor.

Now let's look at ship building. Without the US navy contracts ,how many US ship builders would still have business?

Aircraft. With Obama either cutting programs or not ramping them up, how's the prospect look for aircraft? Again, China and the other emerging markets are getting into the airliner market as well as fighters... We have the good stuff NOW, but will we in 20 years?

Nuclear power plants (hell, ANY power plants).... we're not building them. Our companies are building them for India, China, etc. and their engineers are watching and studying how they're made piece by piece from the ground up....

Energy: is Oil, NG, coal, as industries....booming with the full support of Congress and government (and MSM) or not? We'll always have an energy sector, but the big fields and finds are not in CONUS.... with the exception of NG and coal, neither of which are getting rah rah support from Congress and POTUS other than lip service while they figure out how to kill both via taxation and regulation of CO2 as a pollutant.

Computers...how many components are built in the USA? Any of them?

Home building.... we have 14 month supply and overbuilt. In markets where the other business base is likewise drying up. (Thought experiment...what if the boomers DON'T all move to Florida, AZ, and CA like their folks did? What if, since they all married 10-20 years later in life than their folks did, they stay put to take care of their younger families? What if they simply can't afford to buy a second home..... all are likely trends that spell real estate doom in places that relied on home building as a big chunk of the local economy.

As energy intensive manufacturing plants shut down....the cost per KW goes down... making all the green jobs superfluous economically... solar, wind, ethanol....all only make sense if energy costs are sky high - which they will be only out of politics/taxes. But how long can the market be ignored?

So what's the new basis for our job growth? Services to people who make things of value for the rest of the planet....so are we doomed to become caretakers of Disney world?

Posted: 6/16/2009 6:37:01 PM EDT

[#11]

Jesus guys, if you want to start a factory go do it. There is SO much FREE information on the internet that just about anyone capable of reading can do it.

Buy a used lathe and some books on how to run it. Start reading up about CNC and electronics while you learn how to operate the lathe manually. Then convert the lathe to cnc operation for speed of production and start turning out parts for the rest of your shop. Or use the lathe itself to build ANOTHER lathe strictly for CNC.

Buy a used 3 axis mill and convert it to CNC using both the lathe and the mill itself to make all the necessary conversion parts.

Now you can make any machine or tooling you want. If you can do it cheaper or better quality than china (the latter is more likely than the former) more power to you. Thanks for saving America.

Posted: 6/16/2009 6:52:45 PM EDT

[#12]

Quoted:

Quoted:

China and Japan are going to be buying less US debt... but not for the reasons you mention.

Ask yourself, where does the savings that China/Japan lends us come from?

From us buying their products.

And what happens if the US consumer stops buying their products and saves the money instead? (as is happening now) Does the financial system die?

No. Because the money is indirectly coming from us in the first place.

China/Japan are overrated, their economies live vicarously through our consumers. The only money they lend us is the money that we bought their products with and is recycled back to us. What is happening now? we are no longer buying their products (China's exports are down 26%, Japan down 40%+) and the money that would have spent on their products (and then lent back to us) is just being saved (lent to ourselves) in the first place.

China/Japan depends on us far more than we do on them. People place far to much importance on their shell economy.

This is my opinion as well. To get to the root of the sitiuation just look at which which way the capital is flowing. The U.S. is their employer.

Yep.

People continually underestimate how important the US is to the global economy. It reminds me of the "decoupling" nonsense floating around this time last year...

This sounds like famous last words. It sounds like what the Emperors of Rome must have said with the Barbarians massing a few hills over.

Look, the cosmos is not favoring the U.S. over any other country. The simple fact is that we, as a country, managed to produce more via a free society than other countries have in the last 100 years or so. Thus, we became "rich". We did not become "rich" by consuming - a ideology a lot of so-called economists seem to be pushing.

We, as a nation, are not producing as much as we used to. We outsourced it. Now other countries are producing much more than they used to. This means that, eventually, maybe not tomorrow, but someday, we will no longer be top dog.

...unless we pull our collective heads out of our ass, stop stupid spending for spending's sake and get back to making stuff.

1) Does the term comparative advantage mean anything to you? -Yes. However, such an advantage can be whittled down with time. Like if we do not produce anything for awhile.

2) Does my sigline mean anything to you? -Yes. It means that you are trying to make people believe your opinion without supporting your arguement.

Now we are getting somewhere. Please explain for us the CORRECT ratio of manufacturing to non-manufacturing jobs in an economy that will prosper for the long term. -I do not know, but I know it is not ZERO (which is where we are headed becasue we are driving companies that produce stuff overseas with heavy taxes and over-regulation).

Chop chop.

While you are at it, please answer the following question: What nation manufactures the most BY VALUE of any nation on the planet? Which nation is number one in manufacturing value-added? -This is a trick question, becasue while the answer is "The U.S." it does not illustrate trendlines. We are producing less and other nations are producing more. If this continues, eventually, they will produce more than us.

ETA: Do you "make stuff" for a living? Yup- engineer

Now let me ask you a question: Do you really believe that the Chinese will continue to make stuff for us, send it over here for us to buy with IOUs just so they can have have those IOUs to lend back to us...so we can buy more of their stuff...all while we sit on our asses and do no make anything ourselves? How about after 100 years? Do think the Chinese will continue working for promises or will they simply say, "Screw you and your worthless money! We're going to make cars, computers, spaceships etc and use them ourselves!"

In other words, if they can make everything themselves and we do not make anything, why would they do anything for us at all? Charity?

The Chinese economy cannot support it's present production level...

Like almost all economies that focus on 'making stuff' in terms of individual consumer-goods, they can't afford to buy the stuff they make....

The notion that a country SHOULD produce everything it consumes internally is beyond retarded.

Posted: 6/16/2009 7:18:50 PM EDT

[#13]

It means we have to live within our means.

Posted: 6/16/2009 7:29:07 PM EDT

[#14]

Quoted:

Quoted:
China and Japan are going to be buying less US debt... but not for the reasons you mention.

Ask yourself, where does the savings that China/Japan lends us come from?

From us buying their products.

And what happens if the US consumer stops buying their products and saves the money instead? (as is happening now) Does the financial system die?

No. Because the money is indirectly coming from us in the first place.

China/Japan are overrated, their economies live vicarously through our consumers. The only money they lend us is the money that we bought their products with and is recycled back to us. What is happening now? we are no longer buying their products (China's exports are down 26%, Japan down 40%+) and the money that would have spent on their products (and then lent back to us) is just being saved (lent to ourselves) in the first place.

China/Japan depends on us far more than we do on them. People place far to much importance on their shell economy.

This is my opinion as well. To get to the root of the sitiuation just look at which which way the capital is flowing. The U.S. is their employer.

Yep.

People continually underestimate how important the US is to the global economy. It reminds me of the "decoupling" nonsense floating around this time last year...

This sounds like famous last words. It sounds like what the Emperors of Rome must have said with the Barbarians massing a few hills over.

Look, the cosmos is not favoring the U.S. over any other country. The simple fact is that we, as a country, managed to produce more via a free society than other countries have in the last 100 years or so. Thus, we became "rich". We did not become "rich" by consuming - a ideology a lot of so-called economists seem to be pushing.

We, as a nation, are not producing as much as we used to. We outsourced it. Now other countries are producing much more than they used to. This means that, eventually, maybe not tomorrow, but someday, we will no longer be top dog.

...unless we pull our collective heads out of our ass, stop stupid spending for spending's sake and get back to making stuff.

1) Does the term comparative advantage mean anything to you?
2) Does my sigline mean anything to you?

Yes what was Rothbard's opinion of an economy based on fiat currency?

GR

Posted: 6/16/2009 7:34:03 PM EDT

[#15]

Quoted:
So what's the new basis for our job growth? Services to people who make things of value for the rest of the planet....so are we doomed to become caretakers of Disney world?

Simply put, the 'money' in a product isn't in making it...
It's in the design, packaging, and selling of said product...
Most of that work requires an educated workforce, that grew up in the market to which the product is being sold....
The closer to the bottom of the supply chain you are, the LESS you make per unit sold...
Manufacturing is a cost to be minimized, NOT a national economic asset

P.S. Absent union distortion, 'maunfacturing' is a lower class, not middle class occupation...

Middle Class (again, absent union thuggery) = B.S. & a white collar job now... With a few exceptions for skilled service trades & public sector jobs.....

Posted: 6/16/2009 7:34:35 PM EDT

[#16]

Sorry, both parties have pretty much sucked the blood out of middle class America. They will have to look elsewhere.

Posted: 6/16/2009 7:34:48 PM EDT

[#17]

Quoted:

Yes what was Rothbard's opinion of an economy based on fiat currency?

GR

Just because he was wrong about currency, does not make that quote any less true...

Posted: 6/16/2009 7:40:31 PM EDT

[#18]

Quoted:
What it is going to mean is, the .gov will have to get serious about fiscal responsibility.

It actually will be a good thing IMHO. We will take an initial hit, then we will recover. America will still have the most powerful force on Earth........the middle class. The ones that REALLY make us the economic juggernaut we are.

Can't be middle class if you don't have a job.

Posted: 6/16/2009 7:42:05 PM EDT

[#19]

Quoted:
It means we are fucked.

It means we are going to have to live within our means and closer to what is prescribed by the Constitution and not by liberal politicians.

Posted: 6/16/2009 7:52:13 PM EDT

[#20]

I can't believe taxes haven't been mentioned yet. Obama will still get his socialist programs, but he will have to pay for them domestically, which means we all get slammed with taxes the likes of which America has never seen before.

Posted: 6/16/2009 9:15:43 PM EDT

[#21]

Quoted:
I can't believe taxes haven't been mentioned yet. Obama will still get his socialist programs, but he will have to pay for them domestically, which means we all get slammed with taxes the likes of which America has never seen before.

Hearing lots of talk about a new federal"value added" type sales tax .

We have one here in Canada.. Its now 5% down from 7%...

[ARCHIVED THREAD] - China and Japan not going to buy any U.S. long tem debt... (Page 2 of 2)

General » General Discussion

Warning

Confirm Action

About AR15.COM

Stay Connected

Newsletter

Contact Us