Car Tires - Air or Nitrogen - Page 2

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[ARCHIVED THREAD] - Car Tires - Air or Nitrogen (Page 2 of 3)

Posted: 4/30/2011 6:57:43 PM EDT

[#1]

Quoted:

PV=nRT

Otherwise known as the Ideal Gas Law, there is no exception for nitrogen.

Key word = Ideal

The real world is very often not ideal.

Posted: 4/30/2011 7:50:18 PM EDT

[#2]

Seems to me, 100% nitrogen in street automobile tires is the equivalent of a $150 monster HDMI cable from Best Buy.

Both have no tangible benefit in 99.99% of the situations where they will be used, and both are marketed to people who don't do the research.

This article from Boeing explains why 100% nitrogen is used in high pressure airplane tires that are subjected to extreme temperatures:
boeing.com/commercial/aeromagazine/aero_05/textonly/m03txt.html

Buy $3 HDMI cables from monoprice, fill your street automobile tires with air, and spend the rest on ammo.

YMMV

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Posted: 4/30/2011 7:51:45 PM EDT

[#3]

Since air is 78% Nitrogen anyway, I just run that.

Oh, and it expands the same as pure Nitrogen too.

Posted: 4/30/2011 8:00:40 PM EDT

[#4]

Quoted:

Quoted:
CO2 would be better, bigger molecule will leak slower.

NOPE CO2 will leak out much faster. Fill your tires up with it on a Friday and see how much is left by the next Friday. There is more to the permeability than molecule size.

Waiting for Keith_J to weigh in on this.

I use CO2 in my jeep tires and it has not been a problem for me. It's convenient in that 20lb beverage CO2 tank will last me an entire season of snow wheeling. The entire off road community does the same.

I do lose some over time but you get that with regular air or nitrogen too.

Posted: 4/30/2011 8:08:35 PM EDT

[#5]

Quoted:

We used to use nitrogen for aircraft tyres...IIRC the reason was less moisture as the wheels were mag alloy and corrosion was a problem.

Inert and stable.

Just my 2 cents

So instead of a $500 dessicant system for the air, they bought a $10,000 pressure swing molecular sieve... must be a government operation.

Sometimes overheated tires actually catch fire in the wheel wels after take-off. Nitrogen soesn't support combustion. Air does.

What about the air outside the tire supporting combustion? Kinda hard to keep pure nitrogen outside the tire to suppress fires.

Posted: 4/30/2011 8:14:32 PM EDT

[#6]

Deej thread tells all.

http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=1&f=5&t=1094245

Posted: 4/30/2011 8:25:37 PM EDT

[#7]

Quoted:

We used to use nitrogen for aircraft tyres...IIRC the reason was less moisture as the wheels were mag alloy and corrosion was a problem.

Inert and stable.

Just my 2 cents

+1 Agree. I would not waste your money on nitrogen. In aircraft it is important because the tires can be at high temperature on the ground and below freezing at altitude, thus condensation is a problem expansion

As well as corrosion inside the landing gear struts.

Posted: 4/30/2011 8:41:41 PM EDT

[#8]

Quoted:

We used to use nitrogen for aircraft tyres...IIRC the reason was less moisture as the wheels were mag alloy and corrosion was a problem.

Inert and stable.

Just my 2 cents

This is why it's used in motorcycle rear shocks. That and the temperature benefits.

Posted: 4/30/2011 8:46:05 PM EDT

[#9]

I also run a little Argon and trace elements in my tires.

Posted: 4/30/2011 8:50:02 PM EDT

[#10]

Quoted:
I own an air compressor and a tire gauge.

me to.

Posted: 4/30/2011 9:00:03 PM EDT

[#11]

Quoted:

Quoted:
I use a mix with 78% nitrogen and 21% oxygen

Me too, that's a very unique blend, I thought I was the only one!

There are at least three of us that use it.

I hear it is also good for other things.

I put it through my intake system.

Posted: 4/30/2011 9:12:25 PM EDT

[#12]

Quoted:
Thanks to the Ford/Firestone tire problems, the federal government said that all new autos must have tire pressure sensors in each wheel so the car will tell the driver if/when a tire is low.

When there is a big swing in temperature from night to day, depending on what the pressure in the tires are, and depending on how sensitive the pressure sensor system is, you may have the idiot lights and alarm at time.

Pure nitrogen (90% or more) does not change pressure much from cold temps to hot and can keep the light and warning alarm off so it does not drive you crazy.

By law, this system cannot be deactivated.

That help?

Please explain how Nitrogen is able to avoid being subject to Boyles Law.

Posted: 4/30/2011 9:16:32 PM EDT

[#13]

Quoted:

We used to use nitrogen for aircraft tyres...IIRC the reason was less moisture as the wheels were mag alloy and corrosion was a problem.

Inert and stable.

Just my 2 cents

So instead of a $500 dessicant system for the air, they bought a $10,000 pressure swing molecular sieve... must be a government operation.

Sometimes overheated tires actually catch fire in the wheel wels after take-off. Nitrogen soesn't support combustion. Air does.

Is the entire wheel well purged with Nitrogen as well?

Posted: 4/30/2011 9:36:28 PM EDT

[#14]

Quoted:

There is a local used car dealer/garage that will inflate 4 tires w/nitrogen for $25

He has found the secret to separate fools and their money.

I know one asshat who filled up a low tire with AC refrigerant, his boss at the AC/Cooling repair shop aka his dad just about lost his mind when he found out.

Posted: 4/30/2011 9:41:22 PM EDT

[#15]

Should use helium to make your car lighter and gain those precious MPG's.

Posted: 4/30/2011 10:38:03 PM EDT

[#16]

The ideal gas law is PV=nRT, the real gas law is PV=ZnRT. This works for any gas, it does not matter which gas. For the pressures that tires operate at, the Z factor is very close to 1.

The specific heat of nitrogen is a bit higher than that of oxygen so the specific heat of air is between that of nitrogen and oxygen but is closer to that of nitrogen.

Tire flexing generates heat, most is transferred away to the air rushing over the tire on its outside, but some is transferred into the gas inside the tire. A given amount of heat transferred into the tire will raise the temperature of the gas in the tire more for air than for nitrogen. Think of it in terms of money, the ratio is $1.04 / $1.01, in other words, not much difference between nitrogen and air. This is IF both the nitrogen and the air are 'dry', that is they have no water vapor dissolved in them.

The specific heat of water vapor is about twice that of nitrogen or air, for a constant volume process. Waters higher specific heat means that damp gas in the tire will have a lower temperature than dry gas of the same type. Water content in the air ranges from very low to up to 4%. Nitrogen can have water dissolved in it, the same as air and oxygen.

Corrosion requires both water and oxygen molecules, same with some other types of oxidation. Compressing a gas to say 1000 psi squeezes out water molecules, they precipitate and become liquid, which is easily removed. If the gas is then depressurized down to ambient pressure, that gas will then be 'dry gas'. Dry nitrogen in tires would act like dry air, with respect to corrosion of the metal wheels, there would be little corrosion of the wheels. But ambient air, compressed into the tires, on a rainy day, will have some water vapor in it. This water vapor plus the oxygen in the air might lead to corrosion.

Bottom line: nitrogen has little effect on tire temperatures, but 'dry' nitrogen would reduce corrosion if that is a problem. 'Dry' air would have almost the same effect on preventing corrosion.

Posted: 4/30/2011 10:39:24 PM EDT

[#17]

Quoted:
I use a mix with 78% nitrogen and 21% oxygen, seems to work pretty good.

But I think the primary benefit of pure Nitrogen is financial.

That is what I run as well. The spare 1% is a crapshoot of co, co2, hydrogen and mixed other gasses.

Posted: 4/30/2011 11:07:25 PM EDT

[#18]

Quoted:
I'm drunk so I haven't read the previous posts, but nitrogen is an inert gas, meaning the tire pressure will not be affected by outside air temperature.

good grief man, where did you get your schooling?

inert gasses are not affected by temperature?

ar-jedi

ps:
i am happy to see that a few others have injected Boyles Law into this clusterfuck of "arfcom knowledge". it's sad, so very sad, that basic principles of chemistry –– including the fundamental theory governing the relationship of pressure/temperature/volume of gases –– are completely unknown to so many. this is not rocket science, this is stuff you learn in 7th grade if you are paying attention and not texting.

Posted: 4/30/2011 11:35:10 PM EDT

[#19]

Quoted:
I use a mix with 78% nitrogen and 21% oxygen, seems to work pretty good.

But I think the primary benefit of pure Nitrogen is financial.

I find when the oxygen level at my compressor gets much below 21%, I get dizzy...

Posted: 5/1/2011 4:46:35 AM EDT

[#20]

Quoted:

Quoted:
PV=nRT

Otherwise known as the Ideal Gas Law, there is no exception for nitrogen.

Key word = Ideal

The real world is very often not ideal.

Do yourself a big favor. If you don't understand chemistry and physics at the high school level, then shut up.

Posted: 5/1/2011 4:50:22 AM EDT

[#21]

Quoted:

We used to use nitrogen for aircraft tyres...IIRC the reason was less moisture as the wheels were mag alloy and corrosion was a problem.

Inert and stable.

Just my 2 cents

+1 Agree. I would not waste your money on nitrogen. In aircraft it is important because the tires can be at high temperature on the ground and below freezing at altitude, thus condensation is a problem expansion

+2 It may be useful or necessary in certain applications (such as in aviation). But for daily automotive applications? It's a waste of $$$.

Quoted:

PV=nRT

Otherwise known as the Ideal Gas Law, there is no exception for nitrogen.

Thank you.

Quoted:

We ran Nitrogen in Haul Truck and Equipment tires (which subjects the tire to conditions most of you cannot fathom), and found it to be snake oil.

We no longer buy compressed Nitrogen.

See above in reference to aircraft. But you probably couldn't fathom that.

Way to go out of your way to be offended, Nancy.

Posted: 5/1/2011 5:09:36 AM EDT

[#22]

Quoted:

Quoted:
Thanks to the Ford/Firestone tire problems, the federal government said that all new autos must have tire pressure sensors in each wheel so the car will tell the driver if/when a tire is low.

When there is a big swing in temperature from night to day, depending on what the pressure in the tires are, and depending on how sensitive the pressure sensor system is, you may have the idiot lights and alarm at time.

Pure nitrogen (90% or more) does not change pressure much from cold temps to hot and can keep the light and warning alarm off so it does not drive you crazy.

By law, this system cannot be deactivated.

That help?

Please explain how Nitrogen is able to avoid being subject to Boyles Law.

I'm not an engineer so I'm not going to act like one here. I am however an ASE master tech and a GM master tech and I will say that from my real world experiance from being a tech in a dealership and my own personal experiance with my vehical dealing with TPMS problems I have described above, nitrogen keeps the light off. I own a 08 Tahoe and after I installed nitrogen in the tires, no more TPMS lights in the morning when there was a large temp swing from night time temps to day time.

But you don't have to take my word for it, HERE is an artical from the allmighty ARFCOM approved Ford
HERE is a artical from Popular Mechanics on nitrogen.
HERE is an artical from Consumer Reports.
HERE is an artical from Michelin Tires.

Posted: 5/1/2011 5:19:05 AM EDT

[#23]

Pure nitrogen (90% or more) does not change pressure much from cold temps to hot and can keep the light and warning alarm off so it does not drive you crazy.

Nitrogen:
Does not expand or contract due to temperature changes (perceptibly in relation to inflation pressures in passenger tires)

PV=nRT

Otherwise known as the Ideal Gas Law, there is no exception for nitrogen.

Key word = Ideal

The real world is very often not ideal.

Nitrogen obeys the ideal gas law, and actually matches it better than other gases.

The difference is in the second and third decimal place though.

Nitrogen does have a slightly larger molecule, so it will leak out slower, but it is still going to be a tiny difference.

As for decreasing aging, most tires wear out long before aging becomes an issue.

Posted: 5/1/2011 5:20:00 AM EDT

[#24]

The only one we have that has TPMS on it is an 06 Toyota Highlander. It does not have sensors in each wheel but is built into the hub/brakes somehow. I fill my tires with air in the cool of the AM. I have never had a indication from low or high pressure due to a temperature swing. If the light comes on it is because I have a leak.

Fill your tires with air to recommended pressure while cool!

Posted: 5/1/2011 5:25:39 AM EDT

[#25]

Quoted:

IMHO; the whole Nitrogen deal is BS. Its just another way for shops to rip people off, specially people that are nto car-savy, same goes with the engine flush deal; those things tend to do more harm than good...

By using an aggressive cleaning procedure like flushing, large chunks of accumulated sludge are broken off and forced backwards through these galleries and valves and, more often than not, lodge tightly and block them. This cuts off the normal flow of the fluid and causes lack of lubrication in an engine and abnormal or no shifting in a transmission. The results are expensive repairs, or more often, engine or transmission replacement.

If you have money to toss away and "have" to keep up with the Jones; do it, but IMHO, Nitrogen in the tires is snake oil.

Yep. Had a friend who flushed an older motor in a truck. Ruined it and it was running fine before he "just had to" flush it.

Posted: 5/1/2011 5:27:57 AM EDT

[#26]

Any chance Nitrogen will help with dry rot?

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Posted: 5/1/2011 5:30:50 AM EDT

[#27]

Nitrox FTW.

Posted: 5/1/2011 5:34:39 AM EDT

[#28]

I change out the air in my tires about once a month dumping the old stale air out and adding new air in.

Posted: 5/1/2011 5:35:59 AM EDT

[#29]

Quoted:

I have nitrogen bottles at work. We use it for air core pulp cable which needs it to stay dry. Nitrogen is dry air, you would be amazed at how much water you can pull out of regular air. Nitrogen also is not affected by temp change like regular air is. That being said I have regular old air in my tires becuase I am to lazy to put the pure nitrogen that I have access to in them

This is true, but the water in that air is sitting in the bottom of the air compressor that filled that tire with air. Water seperates from air when you compress it. That's why refrigerators and air conditioners leak water. Because they have compressors in them. By the time compressed air gets into the tire I doubt it has much moisture left in it.

Posted: 5/1/2011 5:37:02 AM EDT

[#30]

Quoted:
Nitrox FTW.

Hell no! I keep a bottle of 40% around, but that's for a hangover remedy.

Trimix is where it's at for tires......

Posted: 5/1/2011 5:41:23 AM EDT

[#31]

I use 100% helium in all my rides. Only a small portion of the tire is on the road at any one time thus reducing rolling friction. Cornering is no problem as the steerable tail (I leave the tailgate down on my pick-em-up truck) obviates the need for high G turns. Instead I slide through the quick corners with hardly a squeak of the tires. Stopping is a breeze as the helium allows the vehicle to settle slightly under deacceleration and starting is the same way. I figure I'm GTG with gas prices even if they continue to rise. The only problem is that in strong winds the vehicle does have a tendency to want to float above the traffic. This can be disconcerting to other drivers but my ride barely scrapes their hoods as I pass them by. I've had kids with skateboards and kites ride for 20+ miles and they smile the whole way!
Helium is da bomb diggity!

Posted: 5/1/2011 5:42:51 AM EDT

[#32]

I'm a Mercedes-Benz dealer tech and we have the "Green Machine" nitro exchanger.We charge $79.95 for the 5 minute service and 4 plastic green valve caps.Plus client get a registration #
to get free nitro refills+top offs when needed.We had alot of problems with our tire pressure moniter system going off due to pressure chages when tires went from cold to hot,then back to cold.
Installing he nitro seems to have fixxed the problem.other wise I think it's pointless.

Posted: 5/1/2011 5:46:08 AM EDT

[#33]

Working in the compressed gas industry for seventeen years and having delivered to Labs fab shops and Defence contractors. Let's get a few points straight. Air as in Oxygen and Nitrogen and other trace gases is hostile to tires.

Oxygen is reactive to rubber, solvents, And hydrocarbons all of which are contained in tires. If water contained 20% acid you would never add it to your radiator. But you would willingly add a reactive substance to your tires because it's free.

To a Oxygen atom a tire looks like Swiss cheese. It will start boring it's way out the second it gets in. Others will follow the path out. Each one widening the way. Nitrogen is a much larger atom and reacts with basically nothing and would be happy to sit in a tire for a very long time and not degrade it.

Tires lose air because of Oxygen loss through the sidewalls. In a year or two you better keep checking them as you will be losing one to two pounds a month.

In a Nitrogen filled tire the inside will be just the same as when it was mounted.

The aircraft industry uses Nitrogen because it cuts down on maintenance in that Tires will need far less refilling to keep them at optimum pressure. This is also spelled out by the auto techs that say It keeps the light out.

Simple analogy here. I give you 100 marbles and tell you to hold them and do not let any slip through if they do I have to replenish the lost ones. Also to simulate the erosive nature of Oxygen lets roll them in glue and broken glass.

Then you hold them at 32 psi.

10 ping pong balls the same. I will need to check the ping pong ball less often in that they hold better and are less likely to slip through your fingers.

Posted: 5/1/2011 5:47:31 AM EDT

[#34]

Quoted:

Quoted:

Thanks to the Ford/Firestone tire problems, the federal government said that all new autos must have tire pressure sensors in each wheel so the car will tell the driver if/when a tire is low.

When there is a big swing in temperature from night to day, depending on what the pressure in the tires are, and depending on how sensitive the pressure sensor system is, you may have the idiot lights and alarm at time.

Pure nitrogen (90% or more) does not change pressure much from cold temps to hot and can keep the light and warning alarm off so it does not drive you crazy.

By law, this system cannot be deactivated.

That help?

Please explain how Nitrogen is able to avoid being subject to Boyles Law.

I'm not an engineer so I'm not going to act like one here. I am however an ASE master tech and a GM master tech and I will say that from my real world experiance from being a tech in a dealership and my own personal experiance with my vehical dealing with TPMS problems I have described above, nitrogen keeps the light off. I own a 08 Tahoe and after I installed nitrogen in the tires, no more TPMS lights in the morning when there was a large temp swing from night time temps to day time.

But you don't have to take my word for it, HERE is an artical from the allmighty ARFCOM approved Ford

HERE is a artical from Popular Mechanics on nitrogen.

HERE is an artical from Consumer Reports.

HERE is an artical from Michelin Tires.

Just fill you tires up with air for fuck's sake ! Next thing you guys will be arguing about what way Justin Beiber parts his hair.

Posted: 5/1/2011 5:50:16 AM EDT

[#35]

I use CO2 in my jeep tires and it has not been a problem for me. It's convenient in that 20lb beverage CO2 tank will last me an entire season of snow wheeling. The entire off road community does the same.

I do lose some over time but you get that with regular air or nitrogen too.

I've been using CO2 in my Jeep for a while now as well. I haven't noticed any difference in leak rates between CO2 and regular air.

Of course, some may not realize why the off road community does this, so here is why:
We intentionally deflate our tires prior to going on the trail / rock crawling. After your done, it isn't safe to drive on the highway with under-inflated tires. Using a small pump takes forever to fill a tire (if you don't have an on-board air compressor), especially a large off-road tire that requires significantly more volume of air than a standard on-road tire. A CO2 tank, unlike nitrogen, is in liquid form and the tank pressure is somewhere around 800 to 1200 PSI. A nitrogen bottle is at around 2000 PSI when full and is not liquid like CO2. There is approximately 4 times the volume of gas in a CO2 tank when compared to the same size tank of nitrogen due to the CO2 being a liquid inside the tank. We carry a small tank of CO2 with us in our vehicle to then air up our tires after wheeling. With the CO2 tank you can fill up a large off-road tire in just seconds. You can get quite a few fills out of a single tank. You can also run air tools, lockers, etc. off your tank if you need to. CO2 is cheep also. Just go down to your local Praxair or a place that will fill fire extinguishers and you can get your tank filled for about 20 dollars.

Also, for those concerned about TPMS issues. You can get cheep chip programmers (for some vehicles) that will usually let you turn off the TPMS. If you are paying big bucks to have the dealer fill your tires with nitrogen, it will be cheaper in the long run to just get a programmer and shut the thing off. Of course this assumes that you will actually check your tire pressure as it is dangerous to drive with under-inflated tires.

Posted: 5/1/2011 5:57:58 AM EDT

[#36]

Quoted:
I've been using CO2 in my Jeep for a while now as well. I haven't noticed any difference in leak rates between CO2 and regular air.

Of course, some may not realize why the off road community does this, so here is why:
We intentionally deflate our tires prior to going on the trail / rock crawling. After your done, it isn't safe to drive on the highway with under-inflated tires. Using a small pump takes forever to fill a tire (if you don't have an on-board air compressor), especially a large off-road tire that requires significantly more volume of air than a standard on-road tire. A CO2 tank, unlike nitrogen, is in liquid form and the tank pressure is somewhere around 800 to 1200 PSI. A nitrogen bottle is at around 2000 PSI when full and is not liquid like CO2. There is approximately 4 times the volume of gas in a CO2 tank when compared to the same size tank of nitrogen due to the CO2 being a liquid inside the tank. We carry a small tank of CO2 with us in our vehicle to then air up our tires after wheeling. With the CO2 tank you can fill up a large off-road tire in just seconds. You can get quite a few fills out of a single tank. You can also run air tools, lockers, etc. off your tank if you need to. CO2 is cheep also. Just go down to your local Praxair or a place that will fill fire extinguishers and you can get your tank filled for about 20 dollars.

Also, for those concerned about TPMS issues. You can get cheep chip programmers (for some vehicles) that will usually let you turn off the TPMS. If you are paying big bucks to have the dealer fill your tires with nitrogen, it will be cheaper in the long run to just get a programmer and shut the thing off. Of course this assumes that you will actually check your tire pressure as it is dangerous to drive with under-inflated tires.

I just bought a junk Scuba regulator online for the same thing. My Scuba tanks hold 3000psi, and they cost me $5 for a fill when I need one. I hadn't thought about air tools though. An impact wrench - or better yet, an angle grinder

could come in pretty handy.

I'm pretty sure that CO2 doesn't liquefy at that pressure though.

Posted: 5/1/2011 5:59:28 AM EDT

[#37]

Quoted:

Quoted:
I have nitrogen bottles at work. We use it for air core pulp cable which needs it to stay dry. Nitrogen is dry air, you would be amazed at how much water you can pull out of regular air. Nitrogen also is not affected by temp change like regular air is. That being said I have regular old air in my tires becuase I am to lazy to put the pure nitrogen that I have access to in them

This is true, but the water in that air is sitting in the bottom of the air compressor that filled that tire with air. Water seperates from air when you compress it. That's why refrigerators and air conditioners leak water. Because they have compressors in them. By the time compressed air gets into the tire I doubt it has much moisture left in it.

Refrigerators and air conditioners are a closed loop system, the water you see "leaking" is from condensation formed on the evaporator coils.

Posted: 5/1/2011 6:09:11 AM EDT

[#38]

The only differance I see with nitrogin over air is its easier for me to wheel a nitrogin bottle out to my car than pull an air hose to it.

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Posted: 5/1/2011 6:10:32 AM EDT

[#39]

That is because C one carbon atom and O2 two Oxygen atoms will break down into its component parts and now you have 2/3 Oxygen in there. Way more harmful than air to the rubber of the tire.

You have the right idea just that a Molecule is composed of atoms and can be broken down. Once those Molecules are broken there is nothing good coming out of this.

Atoms on the other hand are not divisible by anything other than Protons neutrons and electrons.

Posted: 5/1/2011 6:11:02 AM EDT

[#40]

Quoted:
Working in the compressed gas industry for seventeen years and having delivered to Labs fab shops and Defence contractors. Let's get a few points straight. Air as in Oxygen and Nitrogen and other trace gases is hostile to tires.

Oxygen is reactive to rubber, solvents, And hydrocarbons all of which are contained in tires. If water contained 20% acid you would never add it to your radiator. But you would willingly add a reactive substance to your tires because it's free.

To a Oxygen atom a tire looks like Swiss cheese. It will start boring it's way out the second it gets in. Others will follow the path out. Each one widening the way. Nitrogen is a much larger atom and reacts with basically nothing and would be happy to sit in a tire for a very long time and not degrade it.

Tires lose air because of Oxygen loss through the sidewalls. In a year or two you better keep checking them as you will be losing one to two pounds a month.

In a Nitrogen filled tire the inside will be just the same as when it was mounted.

The aircraft industry uses Nitrogen because it cuts down on maintenance in that Tires will need far less refilling to keep them at optimum pressure. This is also spelled out by the auto techs that say It keeps the light out.

Simple analogy here. I give you 100 marbles and tell you to hold them and do not let any slip through if they do I have to replenish the lost ones.

10 ping pong balls the same. I will need to check the ping pong ball less often in that they hold better and are less likely to slip through your fingers.

So, does the ambient oxygen not try and force its way into the tire?

Posted: 5/1/2011 6:13:31 AM EDT

[#41]

Quoted:

Quoted:
CO2 would be better, bigger molecule will leak slower.

NOPE CO2 will leak out much faster. Fill your tires up with it on a Friday and see how much is left by the next Friday. There is more to the permeability than molecule size.

Waiting for Keith_J to weigh in on this.

I use CO2 in my jeep tires and it has not been a problem for me. It's convenient in that 20lb beverage CO2 tank will last me an entire season of snow wheeling. The entire off road community does the same.

I do lose some over time but you get that with regular air or nitrogen too.

Not the "entire" community. I know plenty that don't.

Posted: 5/1/2011 6:13:39 AM EDT

[#42]

Quoted:
Working in the compressed gas industry for seventeen years and having delivered to Labs fab shops and Defence contractors. Let's get a few points straight. Air as in Oxygen and Nitrogen and other trace gases is hostile to tires.

Oxygen is reactive to rubber, solvents, And hydrocarbons all of which are contained in tires. If water contained 20% acid you would never add it to your radiator. But you would willingly add a reactive substance to your tires because it's free.

To a Oxygen atom a tire looks like Swiss cheese. It will start boring it's way out the second it gets in. Others will follow the path out. Each one widening the way. Nitrogen is a much larger atom and reacts with basically nothing and would be happy to sit in a tire for a very long time and not degrade it.

Tires lose air because of Oxygen loss through the sidewalls. In a year or two you better keep checking them as you will be losing one to two pounds a month.

In a Nitrogen filled tire the inside will be just the same as when it was mounted.

The aircraft industry uses Nitrogen because it cuts down on maintenance in that Tires will need far less refilling to keep them at optimum pressure. This is also spelled out by the auto techs that say It keeps the light out.

Simple analogy here. I give you 100 marbles and tell you to hold them and do not let any slip through if they do I have to replenish the lost ones.

10 ping pong balls the same. I will need to check the ping pong ball less often in that they hold better and are less likely to slip through your fingers.

Sure, lose a lb or two a month isn't a big deal if the gas station or garage you go to has an air compressor you can use for free, or you have your own air compressor. I have my own compressor now. I've never had a tire fail from the sidewall decomposing, I always wear out the tread first. It would be kinda nice for the pressure monitors, but not worth the cost in my book. But then again I'm a cheap bastard.

I use the nitrogen/oxygen plus trace gas mix, makes more financial sense.

Posted: 5/1/2011 6:14:04 AM EDT

[#43]

Quoted:

I use CO2 in my jeep tires and it has not been a problem for me. It's convenient in that 20lb beverage CO2 tank will last me an entire season of snow wheeling. The entire off road community does the same.

I do lose some over time but you get that with regular air or nitrogen too.

I've been using CO2 in my Jeep for a while now as well. I haven't noticed any difference in leak rates between CO2 and regular air.

Of course, some may not realize why the off road community does this, so here is why:
We intentionally deflate our tires prior to going on the trail / rock crawling. After your done, it isn't safe to drive on the highway with under-inflated tires. Using a small pump takes forever to fill a tire (if you don't have an on-board air compressor), especially a large off-road tire that requires significantly more volume of air than a standard on-road tire. A CO2 tank, unlike nitrogen, is in liquid form and the tank pressure is somewhere around 800 to 1200 PSI. A nitrogen bottle is at around 2000 PSI when full and is not liquid like CO2. There is approximately 4 times the volume of gas in a CO2 tank when compared to the same size tank of nitrogen due to the CO2 being a liquid inside the tank. We carry a small tank of CO2 with us in our vehicle to then air up our tires after wheeling. With the CO2 tank you can fill up a large off-road tire in just seconds. You can get quite a few fills out of a single tank. You can also run air tools, lockers, etc. off your tank if you need to. CO2 is cheep also. Just go down to your local Praxair or a place that will fill fire extinguishers and you can get your tank filled for about 20 dollars.

Also, for those concerned about TPMS issues. You can get cheep chip programmers (for some vehicles) that will usually let you turn off the TPMS. If you are paying big bucks to have the dealer fill your tires with nitrogen, it will be cheaper in the long run to just get a programmer and shut the thing off. Of course this assumes that you will actually check your tire pressure as it is dangerous to drive with under-inflated tires.

That is because C one carbon atom and O2 two Oxygen atoms will break down into its component parts and now you have 2/3 Oxygen in there. Way more harmful than air to the rubber of the tire.

You have the right idea just that a Molecule is composed of atoms and can be broken down. Once those Molecules are broken there is nothing good coming out of this.

Atoms on the other hand are not divisible by anything other than Protons neutrons and electrons.

Posted: 5/1/2011 6:17:43 AM EDT

[#44]

Quoted:

Quoted:
I've been using CO2 in my Jeep for a while now as well. I haven't noticed any difference in leak rates between CO2 and regular air.

Of course, some may not realize why the off road community does this, so here is why:
We intentionally deflate our tires prior to going on the trail / rock crawling. After your done, it isn't safe to drive on the highway with under-inflated tires. Using a small pump takes forever to fill a tire (if you don't have an on-board air compressor), especially a large off-road tire that requires significantly more volume of air than a standard on-road tire. A CO2 tank, unlike nitrogen, is in liquid form and the tank pressure is somewhere around 800 to 1200 PSI. A nitrogen bottle is at around 2000 PSI when full and is not liquid like CO2. There is approximately 4 times the volume of gas in a CO2 tank when compared to the same size tank of nitrogen due to the CO2 being a liquid inside the tank. We carry a small tank of CO2 with us in our vehicle to then air up our tires after wheeling. With the CO2 tank you can fill up a large off-road tire in just seconds. You can get quite a few fills out of a single tank. You can also run air tools, lockers, etc. off your tank if you need to. CO2 is cheep also. Just go down to your local Praxair or a place that will fill fire extinguishers and you can get your tank filled for about 20 dollars.

Also, for those concerned about TPMS issues. You can get cheep chip programmers (for some vehicles) that will usually let you turn off the TPMS. If you are paying big bucks to have the dealer fill your tires with nitrogen, it will be cheaper in the long run to just get a programmer and shut the thing off. Of course this assumes that you will actually check your tire pressure as it is dangerous to drive with under-inflated tires.

I just bought a junk Scuba regulator online for the same thing. My Scuba tanks hold 3000psi, and they cost me $5 for a fill when I need one. I hadn't thought about air tools though. An impact wrench - or better yet, an angle grinder

could come in pretty handy.

I would be curious to hear how the scuba regulator works (if you meant you were going to have the tank filled with CO2 vs just a regular air fill. I you didn’t mean you were filling it with CO2, then disregard the following). I have heard of lots of issues with people using regular air compressor and even nitrogen (high-pressure) regulators with their CO2 tanks. As the liquid turns to gas the expansion gets the regulator so cold that they freeze up. Lots of people were having trouble with their CO2 systems due to using cheep regulators. They make special CO2 regulators for just this application that are higher flow rate and keeps the regulator from freezing. (Powertank) When I use mine, the regulator gets so cold that there is frost falling off the thing. I have to use my shirt sleeve to disconnect the air line so I don’t freeze my skin.

Posted: 5/1/2011 6:18:15 AM EDT

[#45]

Quoted:

Quoted:
Working in the compressed gas industry for seventeen years and having delivered to Labs fab shops and Defence contractors. Let's get a few points straight. Air as in Oxygen and Nitrogen and other trace gases is hostile to tires.

Oxygen is reactive to rubber, solvents, And hydrocarbons all of which are contained in tires. If water contained 20% acid you would never add it to your radiator. But you would willingly add a reactive substance to your tires because it's free.

To a Oxygen atom a tire looks like Swiss cheese. It will start boring it's way out the second it gets in. Others will follow the path out. Each one widening the way. Nitrogen is a much larger atom and reacts with basically nothing and would be happy to sit in a tire for a very long time and not degrade it.

Tires lose air because of Oxygen loss through the sidewalls. In a year or two you better keep checking them as you will be losing one to two pounds a month.

In a Nitrogen filled tire the inside will be just the same as when it was mounted.

The aircraft industry uses Nitrogen because it cuts down on maintenance in that Tires will need far less refilling to keep them at optimum pressure. This is also spelled out by the auto techs that say It keeps the light out.

Simple analogy here. I give you 100 marbles and tell you to hold them and do not let any slip through if they do I have to replenish the lost ones.

10 ping pong balls the same. I will need to check the ping pong ball less often in that they hold better and are less likely to slip through your fingers.

So, does the ambient oxygen not try and force its way into the tire?

Pressure my friend. Does air want to get in no. air wants out . The outside Oxygen only acts on the surface and that's what armor all is for.

Many times atmospheric pressure inside the tire insures that the migration will always be out.

Posted: 5/1/2011 6:19:13 AM EDT

[#46]

Quoted:
That is because C one carbon atom and O2 two Oxygen atoms will break down into its component parts and now you have 2/3 Oxygen in there. Way more harmful than air to the rubber of the tire.

You have the right idea just that a Molecule is composed of atoms and can be broken down. Once those Molecules are broken there is nothing good coming out of this.

Atoms on the other hand are not divisible by anything other than Protons neutrons and electrons.

Explain how CO2 will "break down" into its component parts? What causes this "break down"?

Posted: 5/1/2011 6:20:29 AM EDT

[#47]

Quoted:
I would be curious to hear how the scuba regulator works (if you meant you were going to have the tank filled with CO2 vs just a regular air fill. I you didn’t mean you were filling it with CO2, then disregard the following). I have heard of lots of issues with people using regular air compressor and even nitrogen (high-pressure) regulators with their CO2 tanks. As the liquid turns to gas the expansion gets the regulator so cold that they freeze up. Lots of people were having trouble with their CO2 systems due to using cheep regulators. They make special CO2 regulators for just this application that are higher flow rate and keeps the regulator from freezing. (Powertank) When I use mine, the regulator gets so cold that there is frost falling off the thing. I have to use my shirt sleeve to disconnect the air line so I don’t freeze my skin.

Just an air fill. I'm curious how long the tank will last - its an 80 cubic foot tank.

Posted: 5/1/2011 6:23:59 AM EDT

[#48]

The June 2002 final rule did not permit disablement of the TPMS, as it is the agency�s normal practice not to allow safety systems to be disabled. Paragraphs S4.2.1 and S4.2.2 stated that the TPMS telltale must continue to illuminate as long as any of the vehicle�s tires is experiencing under-inflation at the level specified under each option when the ignition locking system is in the "On" ("Run") position. The preamble to the TPMS final rule specifically stated that NHTSA decided to prohibit any control that automatically disables the TPMS under any condition, dismissing arguments for even temporary disablement of the system.

http://www.nhtsa.gov

Posted: 5/1/2011 6:25:09 AM EDT

[#49]

Quoted:

I use CO2 in my jeep tires and it has not been a problem for me. It's convenient in that 20lb beverage CO2 tank will last me an entire season of snow wheeling. The entire off road community does the same.

I do lose some over time but you get that with regular air or nitrogen too.

I've been using CO2 in my Jeep for a while now as well. I haven't noticed any difference in leak rates between CO2 and regular air.

Of course, some may not realize why the off road community does this, so here is why:
We intentionally deflate our tires prior to going on the trail / rock crawling. After your done, it isn't safe to drive on the highway with under-inflated tires. Using a small pump takes forever to fill a tire (if you don't have an on-board air compressor), especially a large off-road tire that requires significantly more volume of air than a standard on-road tire. A CO2 tank, unlike nitrogen, is in liquid form and the tank pressure is somewhere around 800 to 1200 PSI. A nitrogen bottle is at around 2000 PSI when full and is not liquid like CO2. There is approximately 4 times the volume of gas in a CO2 tank when compared to the same size tank of nitrogen due to the CO2 being a liquid inside the tank. We carry a small tank of CO2 with us in our vehicle to then air up our tires after wheeling. With the CO2 tank you can fill up a large off-road tire in just seconds. You can get quite a few fills out of a single tank. You can also run air tools, lockers, etc. off your tank if you need to. CO2 is cheep also. Just go down to your local Praxair or a place that will fill fire extinguishers and you can get your tank filled for about 20 dollars.

Also, for those concerned about TPMS issues. You can get cheep chip programmers (for some vehicles) that will usually let you turn off the TPMS. If you are paying big bucks to have the dealer fill your tires with nitrogen, it will be cheaper in the long run to just get a programmer and shut the thing off. Of course this assumes that you will actually check your tire pressure as it is dangerous to drive with under-inflated tires.

That is because C one carbon atom and O2 two Oxygen atoms will break down into its component parts and now you have 2/3 Oxygen in there. Way more harmful than air to the rubber of the tire.

You have the right idea just that a Molecule is composed of atoms and can be broken down. Once those Molecules are broken there is nothing good coming out of this.

Atoms on the other hand are not divisible by anything other than Protons neutrons and electrons.

For those of you concerned with oxygen breaking down the rubber. You are going to wear out your tires long before this would ever be a concern, especially in an off-road environment.

Also, not really sure why you would think that CO2 would break down into anything else. It isn’t like it’s reactive with anything in the tire.

Posted: 5/1/2011 6:25:38 AM EDT

[#50]

Quoted:

Quoted:
That is because C one carbon atom and O2 two Oxygen atoms will break down into its component parts and now you have 2/3 Oxygen in there. Way more harmful than air to the rubber of the tire.

You have the right idea just that a Molecule is composed of atoms and can be broken down. Once those Molecules are broken there is nothing good coming out of this.

Atoms on the other hand are not divisible by anything other than Protons neutrons and electrons.

Explain how CO2 will "break down" into its component parts? What causes this "break down"?

It will do that naturally. We only sell anaerobic grade CO2 Laser grade and Research grade bottled within one year after that enough has broken apart that it will not make grade for the intended purpose.

It will not all break down but enough will to downgrade the cylinder.

[ARCHIVED THREAD] - Car Tires - Air or Nitrogen (Page 2 of 3)

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