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Posted: 6/11/2001 5:53:13 PM EDT
[#1]
They had the fire dept. on the scene when the compound burned, but when they (the fire dept.) wanted to go in the FBI stopped them. It wasn't until the compound was burned to the ground that they let the fire dept. through. Why was Koresh whacked? They said he was molesting children, turned out to not be true (not that the ATF has anything to do with child protetive services). They said they were making illegal machine guns, though the Texas Rangers never found any illegal machine guns. They also accused them of stockpiling weapons (which is not a crime) even though an FFL lived and worked on the property. Then to get the free helicopters from the military they said he was producing meth, and no evidence of this exists. So why did they have to arrest Koresh in the first place?
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Posted: 6/11/2001 6:02:29 PM EDT
[#2]
Quoted: Originally Posted By Slave 1: If they didn't want to burn the compound to the ground, then what did they hold up the fire trucks? By the way who was the HRT rescueing anyway? Waco FD's nearest station is more than 15 miles away. SOP for FD's in extreme hazmat scenarios (possible explosives...i.e. lots of ammo) is to stand off until it is safer. You can't do any good if you lose your crew. -SARguy The FD was not even called until ten minutes after the fire began. Ten minutes later they arrived on scene. The FD was prohibited from entering the scene by the FBI for another 15 minutes. Also, ammo does not explode when burned. Seems like a gun guy would know that. In the words of Ohio Representative Jim Traficant, "When you have one hundred TV crews but not one fire truck, that's not a well-thought out plan, that's box office. This was in spite of the fact the FBI had offers to use remote firefighting equipment, aerial firefighting equipment and had access to US military firefighting tanks. I could continue but I don't think I could convince you with more facts. You already have your mind made up. Aggie1 |
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Posted: 6/11/2001 6:04:46 PM EDT
[#3]
Okay I'm still not getting it though, everyones making valid points, the feds fired first yeah that was wrong I think even Janet Reno herself admitted that along with that it was wrong to use the pyrotechnic gas canisters and neutered bradleys but these valid points are the same you'd here on CNN. I want to know why it is that [i]even the day after[/i] the shots were fired, one fifty-first of the total standoff, with all these hummers and fighting vehicles and black helicopters and subguns pointed at them they didn't realize some shit was about to go down if they didn't come out? If it was to prove some kind of point and stand up for their beliefs I can respect that they were willing and did lay down their lives to do that but I doubt thats the case. Anybody who had proving a point in mind that they would die for would have shown their teeth in that amount of time, they had nothing to lose. And I hesitate to say this, but especially if they were the true Christians everyone says they were and not just wacked suicidal cultists, they would have attacked no matter the consequence. I still say suicide. I mean no offense in anyway to anyone by any of this, I just still don't see but a few of the deaths to be the fault of clinton/reno/atf/fbi/un/illuminati or whatever.
c'mon I want to be anti-government too. Make me believe. |
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Posted: 6/11/2001 6:05:03 PM EDT
[#4]
It really sucks to know that you live under a government that might decide to kill you for your hobby or religion.
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Posted: 6/11/2001 6:09:05 PM EDT
[#5]
Firsly I don't know many who feel the initial ATF raid was well carried out or out of a genuine requirement.
However - once the FBI took over the tables changed. The gov't waited and gave the occupants a deadline - clearly entities cannot disobey gov't authority or the rule of law will collapse. |
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Posted: 6/11/2001 6:15:02 PM EDT
[#6]
They did give the Davidians a dealine, they even allowed them to extend it, but they never said or else we'll gas and burn you out. The problem I have is that none of the crimes were punishable by death, yet that's what happened. What if Koresh had survived and went to court? Would he get the same light sentance as Randy Weaver?
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Posted: 6/11/2001 6:25:09 PM EDT
[#7]
WOW!! Jeez, somebody pinch me... I agree with Imbroglio.
Take it from a fed...Check out the videos he suggests (truly chilling) and disregard EVERYTHING you've been spoon-fed from The Media over the last 8 years... |
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Posted: 6/11/2001 7:40:58 PM EDT
[#8]
Quoted: WOW!! Jeez, somebody pinch me... I agree with Imbroglio. Take it from a fed...Check out the videos he suggests (truly chilling) and disregard EVERYTHING you've been spoon-fed from The Media over the last 8 years... This has been said over and over, but "there are none so blind as they who refuse to see." I have observed that Imbrog|io usually is right on target. Watch the frigging videos before spouting bravo sierra. |
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Posted: 6/11/2001 7:42:24 PM EDT
[#9]
Quoted: Also, ammo does not explode when burned. Seems like a gun guy would know that. I could continue but I don't think I could convince you with more facts. You already have your mind made up. Aggie1 No one knew what was in the building. They didn't know if explosives weren't present. Tons of ammo means things like powder, etc could be present. If [i]you[/i] would think in a tactical sense, you would realize that. Goal number one is to effect a rescue. You can't do that with a down crew. After 14 years of non-armchair QB'ing, [i]I[/i] think I know that. Again, not placing blame or critiquing operations. Stating fact. Not "continuing" based on some crackpot video or liberal media report. Everyone made mistakes. -SARguy |
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Posted: 6/11/2001 7:44:28 PM EDT
[#10]
Quoted: Okay I'm still not getting it though, everyones making valid points, the feds fired first yeah that was wrong I think even Janet Reno herself admitted that along with that it was wrong to use the pyrotechnic gas canisters and neutered bradleys but these valid points are the same you'd here on CNN. I want to know why it is that [i]even the day after[/i] the shots were fired, one fifty-first of the total standoff, with all these hummers and fighting vehicles and black helicopters and subguns pointed at them they didn't realize some shit was about to go down if they didn't come out? If it was to prove some kind of point and stand up for their beliefs I can respect that they were willing and did lay down their lives to do that but I doubt thats the case. Anybody who had proving a point in mind that they would die for would have shown their teeth in that amount of time, they had nothing to lose. And I hesitate to say this, but especially if they were the true Christians everyone says they were and not just wacked suicidal cultists, they would have attacked no matter the consequence. I still say suicide. I mean no offense in anyway to anyone by any of this, I just still don't see but a few of the deaths to be the fault of clinton/reno/atf/fbi/un/illuminati or whatever. c'mon I want to be anti-government too. Make me believe. Erickm If the gov. knew that David K. (through their inside informant. ie. the guy that told them that he had witnessed a member of the cult, open up an AK47 by flipping up the hinged cover an inserting full-auto parts)was telling these people that they would have a finale encounter with the gov. why didn't they back off after the botched raid, and pull back out of sight of the "compound" and just wait? |
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Posted: 6/11/2001 7:45:31 PM EDT
[#11]
You wanna know how seriously wrong the FBI and ATF action was at Waco? Ask yourelf this question: Would they have acted the same way if an FBI or ATF or even a local LEO had a child in that building?
That's all you have to know, to know it was a crime worthy of capitol punishment for the gov perps. |
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Posted: 6/11/2001 7:49:20 PM EDT
[#12]
Quoted: Quoted: I have heard that Delta force was there. Any body else hear this? Nobody ever wants death in tactical operations. There were mistakes made by all. I think everyone involved wishes they would have done things differently. But whoever thinks the government is into killing for the sake of some black-bag agenda to come take your guns is just living in paraniod fantasy land. -SARguy I'll ask you the same question I asked of erickm. Would the FBI or ATF have handled the situation differently if an agent, or even a local LEO had a child in that building? The answer to that question is all I need to know, to realize that the gov perps should be waiting on death row right now. |
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Posted: 6/11/2001 8:00:23 PM EDT
[#13]
Quoted: No one knew what was in the building. -SARguy Are you ignorant, or a liar? The ATF had been al through that building, and even had listening devices planted throughout, if you can believe the official version of the story at all. They knew EXACTLY what was in there. Now, since you seem like a gov't shill, tell me, if the Davidians had .50 BMGs, why didn't they use them on the tanks? And how did the FBI manage to recover that pristine specimen of a full auto AK from the ashes of Waco? There was not one body recovered that was not partially, if not fully charred. How did that gun remain in mint condition, without a single scorch on it? BULLSHIT IS HOW!!!! The lies about Waco are so flagrant, it makes me sick, really. |
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Posted: 6/11/2001 8:01:36 PM EDT
[#14]
I don't know if anyone heard this but they did use Delta force at waco and that can only be authorized by the president of the U.S. this is what I read in SOF.
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Posted: 6/11/2001 8:09:14 PM EDT
[#15]
Boomer, you need to get off my ass.
What in the is your problem? His name was Vernon Wayne Howell. In my opinion he was a fucking whacko. I didn't know him, I don't want to know controlling fucks like him, I am not a mindless follower like his "people" were / are. Had you bothered to read my post you would have read that I wrote: "Just because someone follows a different religion or dosen't "act" like the rest of "us" is no reason to kill them." That means that I don't like people "like" Vern or his followers. It was their right as Americans to practice their religion and to be left alone and not to be burned alive. Vern could of surrendered long before the ATF had their asses handed to them. I think that Vern would have been shot after the ATF shootout had he tried to surrender. He made the choice, his followers "followed" him. Quoted: Quoted: Vernon Wayne Howell was a certified whacko. His followers were just as whacked. All they had to do was walk out and surrender. Just because someone follows a different religion or dosen't "act" like the rest of "us" is no reason to kill them. Janet Reno is just as guilty of murder as that pile of (dead) shit McVeigh was. Two questions: A. Did you personally know David Koresh? Or are you just basing you assertion on what you were spoon fed by the media? B. Exactly how eager would you have been to walk out of your home after having been assaulted by dozens of black clad men firing automatic weapons at you? I can't say as I blame them for not trusting the same people who were attempting to and finally succeeded at killing them. |
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Posted: 6/11/2001 8:14:13 PM EDT
[#16]
Quoted: You wanna know how seriously wrong the FBI and ATF action was at Waco? Ask yourelf this question: Would they have acted the same way if an FBI or ATF or even a local LEO had a child in that building? That's all you have to know, to know it was a crime worthy of capitol punishment for the gov perps. And I see where you're going, no they wouldn't. I believe just about everything done by the feds was wrong, why else did they make their "apology"? What I'm trying to get at is that for a month and a half after the raid the davidians were in control, they were the ones with the power to decide whether the situation gets worse or ends. Nothing i've seen goes into that, just that the feds were overbearing and completely wrong on raid day and fire day, even cnn has that stuff and most everyone accepts it. But most everyone I've talked to thinks like me, koresh's folks held the chips after the first injustice and thats all they did for a long time is held them and willingly left themselves open for an escalation of that injustice. It's a cold way of looking at it yes, but it's the truth isn't it? |
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Posted: 6/11/2001 8:19:48 PM EDT
[#17]
Quoted: Quoted: Also, ammo does not explode when burned. Seems like a gun guy would know that. I could continue but I don't think I could convince you with more facts. You already have your mind made up. Aggie1 No one knew what was in the building. They didn't know if explosives weren't present. Tons of ammo means things like powder, etc could be present. If [i]you[/i] would think in a tactical sense, you would realize that. Goal number one is to effect a rescue. You can't do that with a down crew. After 14 years of non-armchair QB'ing, [i]I[/i] think I know that. Again, not placing blame or critiquing operations. Stating fact. Not "continuing" based on some crackpot video or liberal media report. Everyone made mistakes. -SARguy Yeah, everybody makes mistakes. The difference is that most people are held accountable for their actions. And as for the crack pot videos remark. I haven't watched them. I did however watch the hearings. The bullshit was flying fast and furious. Take your blinders off and look at the whole picture. I shudder to think that one day it could be one of us. Basically over 80 people died because they held different beliefs than the majority of the population. They thought that in America it was okay to own guns and worship in their own way. If you think the only thing wrong with the Waco incident was bad tactics you are sadly mistaken. |
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Posted: 6/11/2001 8:21:35 PM EDT
[#18]
Quoted: Boomer, you need to get off my ass. What in the fuck is your problem? In my opinion he was a fucking whacko. Many of us become very emotional (read: outraged) by this and similar topics. Anyone who even seems to have "bought" the gov.'t propaganda is attacked. I am curious why you would consider him a "fucking whacko." What did he do to warrant that title? Molest kids? Have grenades shipped to him via UPS? Make machine guns? Kill himself and his followers in a fiery blaze? These are all easily refuted with the available facts. One easy one--where would you order grenades to be shipped UPS? Think about it. No flame intended, just nerves laid bare. |
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Posted: 6/11/2001 8:25:59 PM EDT
[#19]
Quoted: What I'm trying to get at is that for a month and a half after the raid the davidians were in control, they were the ones with the power to decide whether the situation gets worse or ends. OK, what would you do if you had just killed 4 ATF agents who had come onto your property shooting everything in sight, like a bunch of assholes? We have the Weaver example to go by. Let's see, the minute someone came out of the cabin, snipers shot them. Hmmmm.... Do I want to give myself up to people like that? No freeking way. Not unless I have major front row media coverage. Let's hang a sign out the window. Yeah, that's the ticket! It will say something like "We want the media!" That will surely get us a fair shake, right? Cept the media doesn't come. In fact, they mock us on tape. What the fuck do we do now? Think of what it was like to be inside that place. What would you do? Now they had no way of knowing at the time, but one unlucky soul tried to get back INTO the "compound". His bullet riddled body was found THREE days AFTER he died. NEWS FLASH! We have murderers in the FBI! Lots of them! |
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Posted: 6/11/2001 8:37:47 PM EDT
[#20]
erickm
Are you saying it is ok to kill people for a TAX violation? Becuse that is exactly what they said they were there for. |
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Posted: 6/11/2001 9:00:57 PM EDT
[#21]
IMO, the only murderer in the standoff was Koresh. He killed himself and his Branch Davidian followers including the children. Given that certain cults are prone to suicidal tendencies (such as the Peoples Temple), The FBI did not handle the situation well either. What you call a conspiracy, I say was a Charlie Foxtrot. Idiots were in charge of both sides. |
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Posted: 6/11/2001 9:02:44 PM EDT
[#22]
erikm, I covered this a little while back.
[url]http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?id=20662[/url] |
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Posted: 6/11/2001 9:06:39 PM EDT
[#23]
Originally Posted By Bush Hamster: IMO, the only murderer in the standoff was Koresh. He killed himself and his Branch Davidian followers including the children. Given that certain cults are prone to suicidal tendencies (such as the Peoples Temple), The FBI did not handle the situation well either. What you call a conspiracy, I say was a Charlie Foxtrot. Idiots were in charge of both sides. So it is alright to kill people over a tax violation? |
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Posted: 6/11/2001 9:08:09 PM EDT
[#24]
Quoted: Quoted: Originally Posted By Slave 1: I could continue but I don't think I could convince you with more facts. You already have your mind made up. Aggie1 Facts just get in the way of stupid trolls. Thats why they ignore them. |
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Posted: 6/11/2001 9:14:10 PM EDT
[#25]
Quoted: Originally Posted By Bush Hamster: IMO, the only murderer in the standoff was Koresh. He killed himself and his Branch Davidian followers including the children. Given that certain cults are prone to suicidal tendencies (such as the Peoples Temple), The FBI did not handle the situation well either. What you call a conspiracy, I say was a Charlie Foxtrot. Idiots were in charge of both sides. So it is alright to kill people over a tax violation? There seems to be no reason to kill them. They will kill themselves soon. Funny how everyone who disagrees with the gov.'t ends up killing themself. Vince Foster comes to mind. Vickie Weaver was obviously the leader of a suicide cult. [whacko] |
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Posted: 6/11/2001 9:20:32 PM EDT
[#26]
Quoted: Quoted: Originally Posted By Bush Hamster: IMO, the only murderer in the standoff was Koresh. He killed himself and his Branch Davidian followers including the children. Given that certain cults are prone to suicidal tendencies (such as the Peoples Temple), The FBI did not handle the situation well either. What you call a conspiracy, I say was a Charlie Foxtrot. Idiots were in charge of both sides. So it is alright to kill people over a tax violation? There seems to be no reason to kill them. They will kill themselves soon. Funny how everyone who disagrees with the gov.'t ends up killing themself. Vince Foster comes to mind. Vickie Weaver was obviously the leader of a suicide cult. [whacko] Amen! Now I want one of you out there defending what the gov. did, to explain to me your reason for believing that it is ok to kill over taxes. |
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Posted: 6/11/2001 9:56:13 PM EDT
[#27]
2 points.
1. As to Koresh being a "wacko", the neighbors AND McLennan County Sheriff Jack Harwell did not think so. The Sheriff is even brought to tears when he is interviewed about all of the Davidians were killed. They were not a "cult" as the members were free to come and go as they pleased. 2. The ATF had an undercover agent by the name of Davy Aguilera with the Davidians for several weeks. So they knew what was in the building. |
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Posted: 6/11/2001 10:18:16 PM EDT
[#28]
What
A Cook Out |
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Posted: 6/11/2001 10:19:30 PM EDT
[#29]
Quoted: Quoted: I have heard that Delta force was there. Any body else hear this? 3 individuals from SOCOM were there. They were support personnel, not operators... technicians. News flash: not everyone in the D is a shooter. The military didn't even want to be there to even offer advice. Military = policy enforcement, not law enforcement. As for training, there is no SF training group at Fort Hood. There is a (small) MOUT facility. But, military personnel were NOT used in an operational capacity. As for all those tapes. Bull. There were no Abrams tanks there. M2 IFVs (minus chaingun) and M748 CVE (civil engineer vehicles). Nobody ever wants death in tactical operations. There were mistakes made by all. I think everyone involved wishes they would have done things differently. But whoever thinks the government is into killing for the sake of some black-bag agenda to come take your guns is just living in paraniod fantasy land. -SARguy !!!!ROGER THAT!!!! |
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Posted: 6/11/2001 11:39:14 PM EDT
[#30]
Judging from the ones on this board and unfortunately a few I've come into contact with in the area, it seems to be a widely held opinion amongst SWAT cowboys, that there's nothing wrong with jeopardizing the safety and well being of dozens of innocent people in an attempt to apprehend one alleged criminal. That kind of attitude amongst heavily armed LEOs puts us all at risk.
So, logically, we honest citizens should consider any "tactical" law enforcement operations in our neighborhood potential deadly threats to our friends and families. Folks, especially on the LEO side, stop trying to turn this into US vs. them. Some of you spout this nonsense about how when we're held hostage the HRT are the folks who are going to rescue us. Fat chance. When someone attempts to hold me hostage, you can come get the body. Americans were given the rights they have so they could take care of themselves. That some of them choose not to do that does nothing to justify either nanny or police states. Waco, Ruby Ridge, Oklahoma City were all terrible crimes, and all perpetrated by the same sort of evil men. Those ends did not justify those means - and nothing can justify turning the police into a quasi-military outfit. If you come into my neighborhood dressed as a police officer, a community servant, I can and will respect that and welcome you. If you come dressed as a soldier, you do not belong here. There is no war in my backyard, yet. |
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Posted: 6/12/2001 12:37:29 PM EDT
[#31]
Quoted: Boomer, you need to get off my ass. What in the is your problem? Well, I don't know what "my problem" is, but yours appears to be that I look at this string of events from a different perspective and have an opinion that varies from your own. Judging by your posts, you seem more outraged at a symptom, Timothy McVeigh and the bombing in OKC, than the root cause, Ruby Ridge, Waco, et al. I personally am much more disturbed by a government run amok that would drive some people to such extremes. And regardless of whether or not we share their peculiar religious beliefs, I don't think that marginalizing the victims of as "whackos", "controlling fucks", mindless follwers", or whatever is proper. In my view, it only serves to diminish their stature and make them appear as somehow even the least bit deserving of their fate at the hands of the government. I understand that such was not your actual intent, but the words still bother me. While I think the OKC bombing was a terrible tragedy and wish it had not occurred, I think it was the inevitable result of the manner in which some members of our government have acted and not been held accountable. If not McVeigh, it would have been someone else. Sadly, unless real lessons are learned from these events, it probably won't be the last such occurrance. |
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Posted: 6/12/2001 3:36:29 PM EDT
[#32]
Quoted: While I think the OKC bombing was a terrible tragedy and wish it had not occurred, I think it was the inevitable result of the manner in which some members of our government have acted and not been held accountable. If not McVeigh, it would have been someone else. Sadly, unless real lessons are learned from these events, it probably won't be the last such occurrance. [b]Now that is SCARY!!!!!!!!!!!![/b] So I can shot the postman for the mailboys errors? |
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Posted: 6/12/2001 3:43:56 PM EDT
[#33]
Quoted: Quoted: While I think the OKC bombing was a terrible tragedy and wish it had not occurred, I think it was the inevitable result of the manner in which some members of our government have acted and not been held accountable. If not McVeigh, it would have been someone else. Sadly, unless real lessons are learned from these events, it probably won't be the last such occurrance. [b]Now that is SCARY!!!!!!!!!!!![/b] So I can shot the postman for the mailboys errors? You can't possibly think that is what he meant. Your posts get sillier and sillier. |
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Posted: 6/12/2001 3:59:56 PM EDT
[#34]
Quoted: You can't possibly think that is what he meant. Your posts get sillier and sillier. I can say the same. If anyone feels this type of cowardly activity is either a logical conclusion towards percieved governmental oppression, or a useful tool to combat the above - somethign is really wrong. I would say IF (big if) yuo really wanted to do something about both scenarios you would hunt down thse involved and those in superior positions. If someone felt that strongly it would seem a logical course of action. |
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Posted: 6/12/2001 4:08:55 PM EDT
[#35]
Quoted: Quoted: You can't possibly think that is what he meant. Your posts get sillier and sillier. I can say the same. If anyone feels this type of cowardly activity is either a logical conclusion towards percieved governmental oppression, or a useful tool to combat the above - somethign is really wrong. I would say IF (big if) yuo really wanted to do something about both scenarios you would hunt down thse involved and those in superior positions. If someone felt that strongly it would seem a logical course of action. Now we agree! Imagine that!! [:D] I am not yet at the point where I feel it is time to do what you suggest. If a blade (bullets don't need the bad PR) found the guilty bastards I would not be upset. I would not do such a thing (yet) as I strongly prefer the rule of law, with due process. If this continues to fail, in this case and others, I guess the blood of tyrants would be reasonable to demand. |
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Posted: 6/12/2001 4:09:10 PM EDT
[#36]
On a side note Verno Wayne Howell legally changed his name to David Koresh. When he died he was in fact David Koresh. As for blowing up buildings to stop an oppressive government, I think that only stands to make them more oppressive.
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Posted: 6/12/2001 4:24:18 PM EDT
[#37]
Slave1
Of course a more oppressive gov't creates more disgruntled employees [flag] |
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Posted: 6/12/2001 4:47:49 PM EDT
[#38]
It's a vicious circle. The more we want them out of our lives the more we demonstrate, by coming out with copycat weapons and so forth. The more we demonstrate the more they feel they have to control us. The more controls they put upon us the more we feel we have to demonstrate...
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