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Posted: 4/6/2017 1:50:07 PM EDT
So the time has come. MARSCORSYSCOM has delivered the final results of the M27 competition.

The HK416 or current M27 IAR was nearly the least durable rifle submitted.

The only thing the HK416 had over every other rifle entered was barrel life.

The HK416 ran $3,000 per rifle and was the most expensive entrant.

The results are...Surprising.

Submitted rifles.
Colt 09A:


Colt 09B:
No easily available photos, probably because it did so much worse than 09A.

FNH 09C:


H&K 09D:


Results.




Link Posted: 4/6/2017 1:51:22 PM EDT
[#1]
Isnt this what another poster got from a FOIA a month or two ago? or is this new info?
Link Posted: 4/6/2017 1:51:38 PM EDT
[#2]
Does this mean that you'll stop talking about their rifles?
Link Posted: 4/6/2017 1:52:36 PM EDT
[#3]
Breaking... lol
Link Posted: 4/6/2017 1:55:13 PM EDT
[#4]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
Isnt this what another poster got from a FOIA a month or two ago? or is this new info?
View Quote
That was me and the fourth and fifth slides are new.
Link Posted: 4/6/2017 1:55:19 PM EDT
[#5]
416 a shit.
Link Posted: 4/6/2017 1:55:53 PM EDT
[#6]
So another procurement debacle where the military gets a pricey pig and some officers get nice jobs after they retire?
Link Posted: 4/6/2017 1:56:33 PM EDT
[#7]
Behold the piston-operated AR15, a solution in search of a problem.
Link Posted: 4/6/2017 1:57:59 PM EDT
[#8]
I guess we (Americans) haven't learned much.

Aloha, Mark
Link Posted: 4/6/2017 2:00:18 PM EDT
[#9]
This is from a test in 2008/2009?  Am I reading that right?
Link Posted: 4/6/2017 2:01:57 PM EDT
[#10]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
So another procurement debacle where the military gets a pricey pig and some officers get nice jobs after they retire?
View Quote
You can't spend dollars if you're obsessed with making sense.

Link Posted: 4/6/2017 2:03:12 PM EDT
[#11]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
This is from a test in 2008/2009?  Am I reading that right?
View Quote
Yes. The M27 was adopted in 2009.

These are the test results.

A further breakdown between Colt entrant A and HK entrant D.

Colt - 20 stoppages per 20,000 rounds.
H&K - 13 stoppages per 20,000 rounds.
Link Posted: 4/6/2017 2:05:02 PM EDT
[#12]
Link Posted: 4/6/2017 2:14:36 PM EDT
[#13]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
So another procurement debacle where the military gets a pricey pig and some officers get nice jobs after they retire?
View Quote
To be fair, sounds like a sweet setup if you aren't a soldier or taxpayer.
Link Posted: 4/6/2017 2:18:46 PM EDT
[#14]
OP was making threads, praising the M27. Not very long ago.

Now he's posting anti-M27 threads. 
Link Posted: 4/6/2017 2:19:24 PM EDT
[#15]
ITT: Beaking, Shocking, H&K IAR, & Joglee

NEVER would've seen this coming...
Link Posted: 4/6/2017 2:20:40 PM EDT
[#16]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
So another procurement debacle where the military gets a pricey pig and some officers get nice jobs after they retire?
View Quote
I wish some people would go to prison over this.
Link Posted: 4/6/2017 2:22:28 PM EDT
[#17]
Link Posted: 4/6/2017 2:24:29 PM EDT
[#18]
How many rounds does a regular big marine corp 0311 run through a carbine in a 3 year hump?

With qualification, a six month tour, etc
Link Posted: 4/6/2017 2:24:50 PM EDT
[#19]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
OP was making threads, praising the M27. Not very long ago.

Now he's posting anti-M27 threads. 
View Quote
It's not anti M27, just posting the results.

I expected something different, but I also don't plan to withhold the data just because they didn't go the way I expected.
Link Posted: 4/6/2017 2:25:54 PM EDT
[#20]
The most recent tests used gen3 pmags and all the rifles showed improved reliability
Link Posted: 4/6/2017 2:28:40 PM EDT
[#21]
who are the other competitors?
Link Posted: 4/6/2017 2:30:04 PM EDT
[#22]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
who are the other competitors?
View Quote
Colt, Colt, FNH, H&K.

Interesting thing is the Class III on the Colts and FNH seem to be on par with what Battlefield Vegas sees.
Link Posted: 4/6/2017 2:30:42 PM EDT
[#23]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
The most recent tests used gen3 pmags and all the rifles showed improved reliability
View Quote
Pmags won't change Class III stoppages.
Link Posted: 4/6/2017 2:32:42 PM EDT
[#24]
Which UUT is 09D?

I don't see the breakdown of which UUT is what anywhere in the documents.

They aren't identified by the UUT 09x codes anywhere that I can see.
Link Posted: 4/6/2017 2:34:33 PM EDT
[#25]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
Which UUT is 09D?

I don't see the breakdown of which UUT is what anywhere in the documents.

They aren't identified by the UUT 09x codes anywhere that I can see.
View Quote
Colt 09A
Colt 09B
FN HAMR 09C
HK 09D.

Also here's the FN HAMR for those that haven't seen it.
Link Posted: 4/6/2017 2:35:42 PM EDT
[#26]
Who are competitors
C
D
E
F
H
Link Posted: 4/6/2017 2:37:55 PM EDT
[#27]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:


It's not anti M27, just posting the results.

I expected something different, but I also don't plan to withhold the data just because they didn't go the way I expected.
View Quote
As much shit as you get that's admirable.
Link Posted: 4/6/2017 2:38:29 PM EDT
[#28]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
So another procurement debacle where the military gets a pricey pig and some officers get nice jobs after they retire?
View Quote
The Sig P320 is the bestest pistol ever, because the Army chose it in the XM17 trials, don't you know.

Link Posted: 4/6/2017 2:38:54 PM EDT
[#29]
The FN HAMR turned out to be shit HAMR'd flat.
Link Posted: 4/6/2017 2:39:12 PM EDT
[#30]
Military procurement has been this way since 1865 . There were Spencer and Henry repeating rifles available and the military decided single shot was the way to go .
Link Posted: 4/6/2017 2:40:27 PM EDT
[#31]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
The FN HAMR turned out to be shit HAMR'd flat.  
View Quote
How so? It had no Class III failures.
Link Posted: 4/6/2017 2:41:10 PM EDT
[#32]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
I expected something different, but I also don't plan to withhold the data just because they didn't go the way I expected.
View Quote
Okay, you get the fuck out of here with that nonsense, right now. This is GD, for Christ's sake.

Link Posted: 4/6/2017 2:41:24 PM EDT
[#33]
ITT we find out that H&K hates both civilians and the military.
Link Posted: 4/6/2017 2:42:10 PM EDT
[#34]
So the FN HAMR had the highest MRBF of any of them, but a very low estimated barrel life.

Combined with the detrimental effects to optics, thermals, and ATIPAL, it doesn't surprise me why it wasn't selected.
Link Posted: 4/6/2017 2:44:30 PM EDT
[#35]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
So the FN HAMR had the highest MRBF of any of them, but a very low estimated barrel life.

Combined with the detrimental effects to optics, thermals, and ATIPAL, it doesn't surprise me why it wasn't selected.
View Quote
It's not surprising.

The FN internals are perfectly designed for 5.56. I mean can we please just out the Mk16 bolt into the M4?

It just breaks other things which is detrimental to the rifle.

Like the stock, optics, laser, etc.

However just sitting in a rest firing rounds I can easily see why it was the best.
Link Posted: 4/6/2017 2:45:56 PM EDT
[#36]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
How so? It had no Class III failures.
View Quote View All Quotes
View All Quotes
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
Quoted:
The FN HAMR turned out to be shit HAMR'd flat.  
How so? It had no Class III failures.
I don't think he is reading the report correctly. It looks like the FN had 3 times as many rounds between type I&II failures as the next best and no type III failures at all.

Strangely the HK has 3 times the barrel life of the next best.

Weird results to say the least...
Link Posted: 4/6/2017 2:48:42 PM EDT
[#37]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:


I don't think he is reading the report correctly. It looks like the FN had 3 times as many rounds between type I&II failures as the next best and no type III failures at all.

Strangely the HK has 3 times the barrel life of the next best.

Weird results to say the least...
View Quote
HK makes good military barrels. Fancy metals, melonited, then chrome lined, with a tapered bore.
Link Posted: 4/6/2017 2:49:59 PM EDT
[#38]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
I don't think he is reading the report correctly. It looks like the FN had 3 times as many rounds between type I&II failures as the next best and no type III failures at all.

Strangely the HK has 3 times the barrel life of the next best.

Weird results to say the least...
View Quote View All Quotes
View All Quotes
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
The FN HAMR turned out to be shit HAMR'd flat.  
How so? It had no Class III failures.
I don't think he is reading the report correctly. It looks like the FN had 3 times as many rounds between type I&II failures as the next best and no type III failures at all.

Strangely the HK has 3 times the barrel life of the next best.

Weird results to say the least...
Is the HK barrel CHF and SBN?
Link Posted: 4/6/2017 2:54:21 PM EDT
[#39]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
Is the HK barrel CHF and SBN?
View Quote
Fancy metal, CHF, melonited, chrome lined, with a tapered bore.

Best military barrel on the market imo....Well not the civilian market.....
Link Posted: 4/6/2017 2:58:27 PM EDT
[#40]
What's the criteria for barrel end of life?
Link Posted: 4/6/2017 3:00:54 PM EDT
[#41]
Updated op with accurate photos of entered rifles.
Link Posted: 4/6/2017 3:08:19 PM EDT
[#42]
Strange that those are "estimated barrel life" and not actual - considering how many rounds they fired.

That must be some incredible steel that HK uses I guess. Unobtanium or Vibranium perhaps ?

If those numbers are real then HK should win the contract for ALL BELT FED weapons. It would be worth the extra cost.
Link Posted: 4/6/2017 3:09:59 PM EDT
[#43]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
Strange that those are "estimated barrel life" and not actual - considering how many rounds they fired.

That must be some incredible steel that HK uses I guess. Unobtanium or Vibranium perhaps ?

If those numbers are real then HK should win the contract for ALL BELT FED weapons. It would be worth the extra cost.
View Quote
MARSCORSYSCOM would not give me the "how" they attained that est. Barrel life.

Honestly, without knowing that it looks like the Colt IAR was the better entrant, especially given it ran $1,400 per rifle vs $3,000 of the H&K.
Link Posted: 4/6/2017 3:10:26 PM EDT
[#44]
TL;DR
Link Posted: 4/6/2017 3:15:28 PM EDT
[#45]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:


MARSCORSYSCOM would not give me the "how" they attained that est. Barrel life.
View Quote
Somehow that doesn't surprise me. They had to have something to hang the contract award on after all.

Considering that CHF barrels are not new tech and that other entrants also sported them the estimated barrel life is something I find hard to reconcile.
Link Posted: 4/6/2017 3:15:49 PM EDT
[#46]
Odd that the HK barrel had such a long life.  Didn't the Battlefield Vegas guy report that his HK uppers shot their barrels out faster than anything else he had?
Link Posted: 4/6/2017 3:18:22 PM EDT
[#47]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
Odd that the HK barrel had such a long life.  Didn't the Battlefield Vegas guy report that his HK uppers shot their barrels out faster than anything else he had?
View Quote
This were the civilian barrels. They are different.

The civilian barrel H&K makes for the USA sucks ass.
Link Posted: 4/6/2017 3:31:16 PM EDT
[#48]
OP doesn't know how to read reports?

MRBF = Mean Rounds Between Failures. Higher numbers are better. The HK entrant (09D) got 2nd place in Class I and II and 3rd in class III and had the best barrel life.

Based on these results, the HK makes the most sense as you are more likely to change out a barrel then have a Class III failure. Plus with a relatively high class I and II failure over the colt options its clearly better for the guys in the field.

Altough I would have picked the FN. Not a single class III failure in all of testing? That's rather impressive. Still better barrel life than the colts and 5000 MRBF for class I and II, 4 times that of all the other entrants? Seems like a clear winner on this data.
Link Posted: 4/6/2017 3:37:37 PM EDT
[#49]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:


This were the civilian barrels. They are different.

The civilian barrel H&K makes for the USA sucks ass.
View Quote
That is strange to hear. According to page 18 of the HK 2016 catalog:

"Like the famous HK416, the MR556A1 uses a German-made barrel produced by Heckler & Koch's famous cold hammer forging process. The highest quality steel is used in this unique manufacturing process producing a barrel that provides superior accuracy and long service life."

According to HK it is not chrome lined but is otherwise exactly the same.
Link Posted: 4/6/2017 3:39:59 PM EDT
[#50]
At least FN worked out the FDE color-matching issue with the SCAR...
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