Bombshell: DOJ Considering Elimination of ATF - Page 2

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[ARCHIVED THREAD] - Bombshell: DOJ Considering Elimination of ATF (Page 2 of 3)

Posted: 10/2/2011 11:41:58 AM EDT

[#1]

Quoted:

Quoted:
ATF will just absorbed into the FBI. They made rustlings about it back in early '80s, I believe it was. FBI was against it.

That's how it's breaking down. DEA takes firearms enforcement and FBI takes the rest. Can't blame the FBI's hesitation in the past.

Prepare for the DEATF.

Sure to be a real winner.

Posted: 10/2/2011 11:54:25 AM EDT

[#2]

Quoted:

Quoted:
Why do I feel like this won't play out well for gun owners?

Its called the Stockholm syndrome.

Its very common feeling with hostages, especially under duress and emotional bondage to express defense of their captors.

Post ATF will be good no matter how you slice it.

You are far more optimistic than me. If they do disband the ATF whatever way the reorganize will be used to take even more rights from us and further harass gun owners and dealers.

Posted: 10/2/2011 11:57:44 AM EDT

[#3]

Quoted:

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Why do I feel like this won't play out well for gun owners?

Same.

I hate the ATF With a visceral loathing hate that seethes with vitriolic passion unsurpassed by the white-hot intensity of a million burning suns during supernova, however I see that anything the DOJ does is NOT going to be in the best interest of the American people and their firearm ownership rights.

+1

Remember, the DOJ dropped all charges against the Black Panthers and that voter intimidation fiasco back in 2008. Apparently video of them holding weapons and threatening white people in front of a polling station was just a little too ambiguous.

No matter what happens, you WILL get screwed.

Posted: 10/2/2011 12:13:01 PM EDT

[#4]

Things are not necessarily going to improve guys.

Posted: 10/2/2011 12:18:09 PM EDT

[#5]

Quoted:
Why do I feel like this won't play out well for gun owners?

this

O wouldn't do this if it didnt help him.

Posted: 10/2/2011 12:23:36 PM EDT

[#6]

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Post ATF will be good no matter how you slice it.

Especially if it moves to a busier agency like FBI. They will have plenty of better things to do than go anal on 4473s. Hell, 4473 duty would probably become punishment for the fuckups.

A lot of people there are pro-gun.

Sure, so long as the guns are in the "right" hands.

Moving to a busier agency who has less time to deal specifically with firearm laws reeks of impending "blanket" policies. Rest assured that there won't be a blanket "approve everything" policy or a blanket "relax restrictions" policy.

Posted: 10/2/2011 12:24:02 PM EDT

[#7]

I don't see it happening. Way too much dirty laundry will start be exposed to the light of day as disgruntled ex-agents start talking about all the illegal acts the ATF has performed over the years. The last thing this administration needs is another scandal. Especially one with some legs under it. So far they have kept FnF fairly quiet, but having 400+ agents trying to make a buck writing tell all books is not going to be the direction they want to go.

If they do shutdown the ATF look for it to be a year to two year process to get a tax stamp due to the lack of people and process and then, of course, it will be due to backlog and lack of people.

This is the Federal government folks, any time a major agency is overhauled, or has major changes, nothing good for the people comes about.

Posted: 10/2/2011 12:27:15 PM EDT

[#8]

Quoted:

Quoted:
Why do I feel like this won't play out well for gun owners?

Same.

I hate the ATF With a visceral loathing hate that seethes with vitriolic passion unsurpassed by the white-hot intensity of a million burning suns during supernova, however I see that anything the DOJ does is NOT going to be in the best interest of the American people and their firearm ownership rights.

Let them remove the ATF and we'll move the battle-lines to the new front, whatever it may turn out to be.

Posted: 10/2/2011 12:37:29 PM EDT

[#9]

The ATF, at present, probably does not create the revenue needed for this or future administrations. I'm afraid to see the NEXT FEDERAL REVENURers

Probably will be a joint effort with China.

Posted: 10/2/2011 1:21:15 PM EDT

[#10]

Plenty of brownshirts in the federal government to take their place.

Posted: 10/2/2011 1:34:14 PM EDT

[#11]

Quoted:
Why do I feel like this won't play out well for gun owners?

my thoughts exactly. they will just move the people elsewhere and it will be business as usual. just a name change.

Posted: 10/2/2011 2:36:55 PM EDT

[#12]

never gonna happen....BATFE is here to stay....

see the karma gods may punish me now and do away with them just to prove me wrong..

Posted: 10/2/2011 2:47:58 PM EDT

[#13]

they will give atf to DHS, because dhs suckutery is better!

Posted: 10/2/2011 2:51:43 PM EDT

[#14]

If "F" becomes part of DEA, and if Ron Paul becomes President.....

Posted: 10/2/2011 2:52:05 PM EDT

[#15]

Quoted:
Why do I feel like this won't play out well for gun owners?

I agree with you.

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Posted: 10/2/2011 2:56:17 PM EDT

[#16]

Quoted:
Why do I feel like this won't play out well for gun owners?

+1000
I do believe you will be right on that one.

Posted: 10/2/2011 2:57:45 PM EDT

[#17]

Quoted:

Quoted:
Why do I feel like this won't play out well for gun owners?

+1000
I do believe you will be right on that one.

Me too.

This smells of political wrangling being that it is happening in an election year.

Posted: 10/2/2011 3:01:04 PM EDT

[#18]

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A good start. BATFE, Dept. of Education, Dept. of Energy, and the IRS, as we know it. Lose 'em.

Don't forget DEA, DHS, TSA, and possibly the NTSB.

THE EPA. I want a diesel Hi-Lux.

IMO, the EPA ranks near the very tip-top of government agencies that should be eliminated wholesale.

Posted: 10/2/2011 3:01:48 PM EDT

[#19]

If they eliminate ATF they'll give firearms to DHS. What a victory.

Posted: 10/2/2011 3:08:28 PM EDT

[#20]

Anyone willing to bet the only thing that actually happens is they change their name in the hopes that everything blows over and they can have a fresh start being assholes again.

Posted: 10/2/2011 3:11:43 PM EDT

[#21]

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HA...They'll remove an entire agency anything just to cover the guy at the top.

FIFY

Oh, first post & all such stuffs.

Posted: 10/2/2011 3:12:48 PM EDT

[#22]

Quoted:

Quoted:
Why do I feel like this won't play out well for gun owners?

Its called the Stockholm syndrome.

Its very common feeling with hostages, especially under duress and emotional bondage to express defense of their captors.

Post ATF will be good no matter how you slice it.

Especially if it moves to a busier agency like FBI. They will have plenty of better things to do than go anal on 4473s. Hell, 4473 duty would probably become punishment for the fuckups.

The FBI visits me every few months. I wouldn't call them busy if they are stopping by to talk to me.

Posted: 10/2/2011 3:13:47 PM EDT

[#23]

Posted: 10/2/2011 3:18:48 PM EDT

[#24]

This place kills me.

Posted: 10/2/2011 3:19:20 PM EDT

[#25]

thats probably not a good thing, who will process ATF forms>?

that could screw anyone who wants to own NFA stuff and all NFA manufacturers. (other than LE MIL sales)

ETA: People who own NFA and want to sell wont be able to.

Posted: 10/2/2011 3:33:00 PM EDT

[#26]

As a NFA dealer and NFA owner, I'd be more than happy to see the elimination of the BATF and deregulation of NFA items.

Posted: 10/2/2011 3:34:22 PM EDT

[#27]

Quoted:
As a NFA dealer and NFA owner, I'd be more than happy to see the elimination of the BATF and deregulation of NFA items.

the laws wont change, the ATF and all the people who process the paperwork will be gone.

you may not be able to transfer anymore.

Posted: 10/2/2011 3:52:48 PM EDT

[#28]

Anyone care to go a larger picture and think about how NATO would fit in should the ATF be abolished?

I'm sure there's at least one person in government that's wringing his or her hands thinking about it.

Posted: 10/2/2011 4:16:11 PM EDT

[#29]

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I love how whenever this type of subject comes up, there are a few selfish fucks that chime in, in opposition to the status Quo because they were lucky enough to have been allowed to make an investment in a NFA item and they don't want to lose a few dollars.

I would bet that if the impossible happened, and the ATF went away and the NFA went away, and the unwashed masses were all allowed to freely buy all of the cool shit, half of those miserable fucks would be OPPOSED to the idea...

You speak the truth, but freedom > a government created supply shortage; so fuck them and their NFA.

Posted: 10/2/2011 4:21:29 PM EDT

[#30]

Quoted:

Quoted:
As a NFA dealer and NFA owner, I'd be more than happy to see the elimination of the BATF and deregulation of NFA items.

the laws wont change, the ATF and all the people who process the paperwork will be gone.

you may not be able to transfer anymore.

That's one way to ban guns, I guess.

Posted: 10/2/2011 4:28:27 PM EDT

[#31]

They'll just reopen under a new name. Existing employees will be rehired and/or promoted into other agencies.

Even if the BATF were to magically go away, their functions would just be taken over by another bureaucracy, with much the same result.

Posted: 10/2/2011 4:38:32 PM EDT

[#32]

If it happens, ATF will cease to exist in name only. They will be absorbed into a different agency, most likely DHS, that would be a clusterfuck of epic proportions. We have those morons call us at work asking us about manufacturing regs when they should ask ATF. But when told so, they say they can't ask ATF.
Merging ATF with anyone would be a monumental fuck up. Leave them to their original mandate, collecting taxes on alcohol, tobacco and firearms. The other parts of their so called mission can be handled by others.

Posted: 10/2/2011 4:38:58 PM EDT

[#33]

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Quoted:
I would bet that if the impossible happened, and the ATF went away and the NFA went away, and the unwashed masses were all allowed to freely buy all of the cool shit, half of those miserable fucks would be OPPOSED to the idea...

You would lose that bet. EVERY NFA owner I know (including me) would gladly take a loss on their current toys if it meant being able to buy new and affordable toys. Oh, and the use of the phrase "miserable fucks" shows me you have some kind of dislike for NFA owners in general. Did one of them bang your wife or something?

Edit: Nevermind - you're in Illinois. You've probably never met an NFA owner. Thanks for giving us Obama BTW....

Folks that cant own NFA stuff either because of their local laws or the cost are almost always the ones saying that type of shit.The MG issue is usually what eally gets their goat, and it's just an expression of classism/class conflict. I would gladly take a hit on my mg if it meant making more in my basement, and evey NFA owner I have ever met is the same way. It's not some big conspiracy to keep the lowly masses fom owning NFA stuff, its just that most regular folks don't know about, dont care about, or don't approve of the ownership of NFA stuff. To the folks who scream conspiracy, haters gonna hate I suppose. Maybe Unlce Ron can help you smash the conspiracy.

Posted: 10/2/2011 4:49:48 PM EDT

[#34]

Good, get rid of it

Posted: 10/2/2011 4:57:56 PM EDT

[#35]

Don't get your bowels in an uproar.

We're talking about te Feds here.

It'll take about two weeks before they replace ATF with a bigger, meaner alphabet agency.

Posted: 10/2/2011 5:10:11 PM EDT

[#36]

I don't believe a word of this.

This is just more talk to distract.

Posted: 10/2/2011 5:19:44 PM EDT

[#37]

Quoted:

Quoted:
As a NFA dealer and NFA owner, I'd be more than happy to see the elimination of the BATF and deregulation of NFA items.

the laws wont change, the ATF and all the people who process the paperwork will be gone.

you may not be able to transfer anymore.

You still could if you owned your NFA items in a corporation.

Posted: 10/2/2011 5:48:46 PM EDT

[#38]

Quoted:

Quoted:
ATF will just absorbed into the FBI. They made rustlings about it back in early '80s, I believe it was. FBI was against it.

That's how it's breaking down. DEA takes firearms enforcement and FBI takes the rest. Can't blame the FBI's hesitation in the past.

Seems kinda backwards. You'd think the Drug Enforcement Agency would take over the drug duties of the ATF, since alcohol and tobacco are drugs.

Posted: 10/2/2011 5:56:24 PM EDT

[#39]

I agree, I wouldn't be too enthusiastic about this just yet.

Quoted:
Why do I feel like this won't play out well for gun owners?

Posted: 10/2/2011 6:02:37 PM EDT

[#40]

Quoted:

Quoted:
As a NFA dealer and NFA owner, I'd be more than happy to see the elimination of the BATF and deregulation of NFA items.

the laws wont change, the ATF and all the people who process the paperwork will be gone.

you may not be able to transfer anymore.

While this would suck in the short term. I could see it playing out to our advantage. If we are denied the ability to exercise our rights within the confines of the existing law, we can sue or raise a stink some other way. It could be used to either streamline and expedite the approval process or even go as far as amending or repealing the NFA.

Of course, we're going pretty deep with the speculation. At this point we don't know if the BATFE is going anywhere. I'm not gonna get my panties in a bunch over some "what ifs".

Posted: 10/3/2011 4:43:43 AM EDT

[#41]

There is a tremendous advantage of splitting any administration that maintains both ministerial and enforcement functions...it just becomes too easy for the organization to become a self-licking ice cream cone. Ministerial functions (like the granting of licenses) become the focus of a significant amount of the enforcement effort. This is the heart of problems of the ATF, FAA, DEA and a number of other federal agencies.

Posted: 10/3/2011 4:48:52 AM EDT

[#42]

Hell YES!!!!!

Posted: 10/3/2011 5:13:02 AM EDT

[#43]

Quoted:

Why do I feel like this won't play out well for gun owners?

not the only one.

Posted: 10/3/2011 5:18:33 AM EDT

[#44]

Quoted:
Why do I feel like this won't play out well for gun owners?

Yeah, I am sensing some unintended (or intended) consequences.

Posted: 10/3/2011 5:22:32 AM EDT

[#45]

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Quoted:
Hopefully my two tax stamps get approved before this happens

Well, they haven't funded the Department of Rights Restoration since the 80's (at least) so you have to wonder what agency would be tasked with issuing/tracking tax stamps and if said successor agency would actually have those staff positions funded or if the administration would "accidentally" forget to fund them thus "accidentally" limiting the number of MG's, silencers and SBx's.

That was my first thought.

The fed. gov. and the ATF have turned a right into a privilege. Now the privilege-giver is going away.

However, as a lawyer, I am interested in the 'wild west' that this might yield.
The entire culture is a really pro-gun culture right now. Things might improve with a vacuum and some good lawyering.

Posted: 10/3/2011 5:22:49 AM EDT

[#46]

I came.

Posted: 10/3/2011 5:27:15 AM EDT

[#47]

Quoted:

If it happens, ATF will cease to exist in name only. They will be absorbed into a different agency, most likely DHS, that would be a clusterfuck of epic proportions. We have those morons call us at work asking us about manufacturing regs when they should ask ATF. But when told so, they say they can't ask ATF.
Merging ATF with anyone would be a monumental fuck up. Leave them to their original mandate, collecting taxes on alcohol, tobacco and firearms. The other parts of their so called mission can be handled by others.

Yep, putting the ATF functions under DHS would have people begging to have the ATF back within six months.

Keep in mind that DHS, the organization founded in response to 9/11 is publicly willing to state that it feels it needs to watch "us" and veterans more than it does Islamic terror cells.

DEA taking alcohol and tobacco, and the FBI taking guns, bombs, and arson would be the best outcome. If the FBI got those functions, I'd expect day-to-day interactions with the public and gun stores to go "better" because while the FBI certainly has it's share of dirty deeds swept under the rug, they do have a larger culture of standards and professionalism than the ATF does.

However, when the FBI does decide to screw over a manufacturer, store, or individual gun owner on something borderline, "iffy", or where there's a technical violation, but no actual intent... they'll be much, much, much better at it than the ATF ever was.