Mandatory military service is a stupid idea (barring situations like WW II where they needed every Tom, Dick, and Harry).

What OUGHT to be madatory is military service if you wish to hold political office.  A rule like that would have kept that prick Clinton out of the white house.

We might go so far as Robert Heinlein suggested in "Starship Troopers" and require military service if you wish to vote.

LOL. They should have tried this a long time ago. Because it will never work now! LMFAO!
I want to see them force this new generation into mandatory service....will be fun to watch!
Nice try.

I think our current volunteer military has done a fine job of showing that terrorism is dangerous.

We don't need to enslave the entire young population for 1-2 years each in order to fight terrorism. That argument is about as good as the one that uses terrorism as an excuse to ban guns. What we do need is to stop letting the fuckers into the country.

As for the ones that are already here, it won't take many more WTC type attacks before we have a large muslim population living in internment camps or being killed by angry mobs.

And for the kids learning mathematics How much defense does having every 18 year go through boot camp going to provide against a missile or chem weapon?



Not likely. What will come is a total police state. Remember, the gov't doesn't want us to be able to take care of our selves. The only training that occurs will be sought out by individuals wishing to become better prepared.



How many of us posting on this board were alive at a time when there was an opportunity to "take their turn" at an endeavor that truly was in defence of this country? For example, the black hawk down story. Getting food to starving somalis may have been noble, but how much did it really do to ensure the freedom of joe blow in the USA?



Sure, just like the slavery of africans was only slavery because they allowed it to be.

Maybe we should encourage and teach about patriotism and love of country in schools. Then many will freely give of themselves when the time comes.



Tell that to any farmer or other blue collar worker who disagrees with universal forced conscription. I'm sure there are plenty right here.



Then you should get ready to smack the tax man because I think I heard him say "give me mine" when he took a third of my last pay check. Maybe I should get all self righteous like you do next time I talk to someone who pays less in taxes than I do. "it's time to pony up and stop relying on the wealthy to fund all of those gov programs you love." You want me to give more of my time? I want you to give more from your wallet.

Since I keep seeing my post quoted over and over, let me clarify. I was a bit worked up when I first posted.

I do not support MANDATORY military service. I don't think it's really necessary. We are not in a constant state of war, and we don't really have anyone at our borders ready to march in.

I would support the bill if it were volunteer. Offer the paid 1 year of college for 1 year of service, say up to 4 years. Offer nice incentives for people to volunteer. Raise the basic pay of the average solider.

I do realize what the military does for us, I just have no desire to serve. The military does not appeal to me, it never has. I would rather work at a job I enjoy. If I wanted forced conscription I would move to Germany, or Israel, or many other countries.

Av.

The goverment does not need compulsery service, the goverment should offer miliitary and skills training that people are interested in.  for example if there was a construction batalion in my area I would be interested in putting time in for training recieved.  For it to work you need to have what people are interested in.   Not many are interested itn being considered a dumb idiot for more years, they have already done that, grade school, middle school, high school.

I also feel that the price of freedom isn't free and that all generations have had to pay the price by serving in the military of this nation. What makes this present generation feel that they are any different, than those who went before?

7th

This generation does have people serving in the military, just not *everyone*. We haven't had a draft though.

Well, we don't need to compare pay stubs, I don't make all that much. I was trying to make a comparison about how someone in a higher tax bracket could bitch at someone in a lower one in the same way folks on this board who have served are bitching about those of us who have not. Looking at it now it's not a very good argument. Quite a bit easier to give up a chunk of money that never really reaches your hands then it is to give up four years.

1 year of college for 1 year of service si essentially what the ROTC program is. I applied to Naval ROTC but was turned down for medical reasons. So considering that not everyone who wants to join even makes it in, why would you make it mandatory for everyone to serve?

I can appreciate those who are concerned about serving with someone who will be a drain and drag on those who really want to serve.  However, I do believe that 9-11 has done something to change the fundamental laziness and selfishness in the U.S. and its young people.  I do not know how the military is now in regards to discipline and sternness.  When I joined in 72, one either shaped up or had their butt kicked.  Physical punishment, and some times abuse, was a matter of course.  There was a sense of seriousness about being in the military.  If this is stressed, young people will learn to change behavior and will, out of a sense of duty, change how they think.  I believe the U.S. and its young men has more of a WWII mentality rather than the the 60's mentality where personal freedom was a means of self expression, but had no objective basis and value.  Remember we just had eight years of moral and spiritual confusion.  The average ten year old has grown from a child to a man with nothing but scandal and lies as guides.  9-11 may be the turning point where we regain our sense of purpose and conviction.          

This reminds me of Heinlein's novel 'Starship Troopers'. In Heinlein's novel civilians were welcome to live under the umbrella of security provided by veterans but had no say in how things were run. The recruitment ads in Heinlein's story read "Service Guarantees Citizenship."
The idea that citizenship be in some way predicated upon military service, honorable military service, has intrigued me for decades. It's one of the reasons I enlisted.
I like the idea of requiring some sort of commitment demonstrated through service as a prerequisite to franchise.

Ummm...yeah.  We won World War Two.

Personally, I think it should be two years.  One year is too short...you're barely out of training in a year.  People should get a taste of actually LIVING the military life.

Ummm, last time I checked this was still a free country.  And this phrase gets cited quite a bit whenever the topics of bearing guns comes about.  Yet the same people on this side of the fence would'nt respect that same attitude of "freedom" on this issue of "Mantory Service."  Isn't this sort of inconsistent?

Some thoughts then.

"Nor, I think, would you mind sitting at home all cozy and warm while some other kid makes the sacrifice of time, energy and possibly life and limb in order to protect that which you profess to hold dear."

(This hypothetical "other kid" "sacrificing" his time, comfort, future, etc "for the greater good" CHOSE his path and it was inevitably his own decision to be where he was/is.  Yet you're critical enough using this line of argument on AVALON's comments.  The issue at hand I'd like to point out is of course- CHOICE.)

"Consider though, that all those volunteers you speak of suddenly started feeling like you. Consider that all they were interested in was their take from life and nothing more.
Where would we be then?  Desire is not part of the equation."

(As for that again hypothetical question of where we'd be- I can't even imagine the answer.  If pushed to give one, I'd probably just say that we'd be where we are.  Same given situations and same current events.  After all- there is NO military conscription at this time and date.  As for "Desire" not being part of the equation, well this seems like an overwhelming refutation of this "freedom" you're very proud of mentioning.  If freedom is truly a right being a member in this country, then we would have total freedom in deciding our own choices.  The suggestion-demand-law-threat-idea of HAVING TO GIVE SAID FREEDOMS up for a period of time (say a year or longer) just to get "freedom" is ridiculous.)


You don't get something for nothing
You can't have freedom for free
You won't get wise with the sleep still in your eyes
No matter what your dream might be

You gotta strike when the moment is right without thinking

(Nice poem. Really. I agree completely that freedom never comes without a price.  

As for Mandatory Conscription in this country, this just sounds like once again politicians thinking they know more, better, and wiser than everybody else what my time and Avalon's and yours is better managed.  And that is a helluva stiff pill to swallow.)

I would not want enforced conscription. I would just give more incentive for good people to join at least for a short term of 1-2 years.

1. If you join, you can drink alcohol anywhere where normally you must be 21 even if you complete your service and are still under 21. Old enough to die fighting, old enough to drink.

2. No gov't college loans for any persons until they are 22 unless they serve for a minimum of 1-2 years. This way they can still go to college without serving, they just have to wait longer if they can't afford it. Anyone dead set on college will find a way to go, even if poor without having to join.

3. Not eligible to vote until 21 without serving. Most are too stupid to have a decent opinion anyway :0) I know I was!

What else would encourage young people yet still keep out shit bricks?

4. How about no driver's license until 21 unless service. THAT would get a few to join :-)

I find the discussion of conscription highly amusing on this board.  Most of the people here claim to be ardent supporters of the libertarian principles set forth by the founding fathers, but when it comes to an institution they love, the military, they have no problem mandating compliance and forcing what is essentially slavery (technically public school falls under this too, to a much lesser extent).

Basically, I view conscription as a terrible infringment on every right we have as Americans to conduct our lives as we see fit.  I have no problem with voluntary service, or increasing incentives to joining (although not the ideas listed above, such as requiring service to vote), but it is contradictory to [b]force[/b] people to defend the principles of [b]freedom[/b].

The condition of being a slave: The state of one bound in servitude ie forced labor, military service or otherwise, is unaltered whether it applies to only one person or every person equally.

Good ideas.  Better results are almost always received when there is something offered that people would WORK HARD to achive.  

Need I use examples to point one extremely obvious fact?  There are a lot of people who value their parts in the special forces.  They volunteer to be members there.  Not much for more pay, benefits, or any material hoopla.  Cream rises to the top.  Esprit de corps.

THEY WANT TO BE THERE.

And those damned politicians missed this glaring example.

This is the most ridiculous bullshit idea I have ever heard of.

Where the hell would we get the money for a extra million E-1's every year? Who we would have to let go when they were barely trained? What the hell would we do with them? This isnt WWI we dont need cannon fodder en mass anymore. Caring for and feeding them would suck up billions needed for operations and buying new hardware. We are not Sweden or Switzerland, we actually use our armed forces, they do not exist to be a branch of the socal services, they are not a form of welfare.

Save our money and spend it on people who want to be there and pay them what they deserve.

I just adore how you freedom-loving patriots are willing to point a gun at somebody's head and say "you [b]must[/b] serve."  Dress it up with all the high-sounding quotes, poetry, and rhetoric you like, you are still advocating slavery.

Why would you even want to conscript some dirtbag,piece of shit who feels that they are too good for the military?

We need to offer more of a reward to those who do serve.

How about tax-exempt status for a few years?[:D]

We have far, far more gun hobbyists here than we have patriots. We have too many people who profess to be pro-gun, but shy away in fright and wrap themselves in rationalizations when it's time to be pro-freedom...because they're not.

Juggernaut

I really don't understand how not being in the military doesn't make you a patriot or freedom loving.  If all hell were to break loose and we had a "Red Dawn" type situation or if China or India were to declare an all out war on us I think 99% of us would volunteer to defend the country....but having some politician or someone else for that matter telling me that I HAVE to put my life on hold when the military doesn't need me is ludicrous.

The ideas below are just as good as the Klinton tax credits.  You are still forcing people to change their life.

There is no reason to have a draft.  We are kicking the living sh!t out of everyone with a volunteer, profesional military.  We don't need more man power we need more and better hardware.

Quoted:
I would not want enforced conscription. I would just give more incentive for good people to join at least for a short term of 1-2 years.

1. If you join, you can drink alcohol anywhere where normally you must be 21 even if you complete your service and are still under 21. Old enough to die fighting, old enough to drink.

2. No gov't college loans for any persons until they are 22 unless they serve for a minimum of 1-2 years. This way they can still go to college without serving, they just have to wait longer if they can't afford it. Anyone dead set on college will find a way to go, even if poor without having to join.

3. Not eligible to vote until 21 without serving. Most are too stupid to have a decent opinion anyway :0) I know I was!

What else would encourage young people yet still keep out shit bricks?

4. How about no driver's license until 21 unless service. THAT would get a few to join :-)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I am just getting fed up with people telling me you have to do this....you have to do that....if you don't do this or if you do this you are bad.....I just want to be left the hell alone and free from hastle.

Yeah, don't you love it?  "Be a slave and protect freedom!"  Sounds great, doesn't it?

Some of our military members need to realize that we have a wide range of freedoms ranging from gun rights, to property rights, speech rights, and...*gasp*, the pursuit of happiness.  D'oh, that just screws everything up.

Mandatory military service might make the country a safer place...it might improve the US.  But hey, under the US constitution we all know and love, and under [b]the basic principles of natural law[/b], forcing someone [i]against their will, to be a servant to the government, [b]is illegal.[/b][/i]  Damn pesky constitution and Bill of Rights.

I don't believe the draft violates the Constitution or Bill of Rights and I doubt that the Founding Fathers would believe it either.

Everyone needs to back up one step and calm down.

Would anyone's opinions change if we changed some issues....Specifically, if we look at 2 years of service and the conscriptee has a choice of serving in say 3 or 4 different programs with the military being only one choice.

IMHO,(and I did serve in the military...volunter) everyone needs to 'pay their way' as a price to pay for enjoying the benefits of freedom. If this comes as public service in a government program that benefits the whole of the country, then that qualifies. Let me tell you all a story of my step-father, he is a practicing Mennonite, not Amish but one step away from. He got his draft notice for Vietnam and was allowed, due to his churches CO status, to serve his term of enlistment as a ward clerk in a VA hospital in Chicago. This in no way compares to being a grunt in SE Asia in the late 1960's, but I think that he served his country honorably and is in good standing to enjoy the fruits of liberty.

I am not suggesting that we allow everyone to claim fraudulent CO status, but make to make everyone serve their country in some capacity.

I fail to see the connection between being "pro-freedom" and supporting mandatory
conscription.

And god forbid some of us rely on "rationalizations", do you suggest we be irrational and act purely on emotion?

Besides, why the hell do we need a standing army of 40 million men?  

               

Article. XIII.
[Proposed 1865; Ratified 1865]

Section. 1. Neither slavery nor involuntary servitude, except as a punishment for crime whereof the party shall have been duly convicted, shall exist within the United States, or any place subject to their jurisdiction.

Section. 2. Congress shall have power to enforce this article by appropriate
legislation.


My thoughts on this:
No matter how you slice it, conscription is slavery.
They say that freedom isn't free. But why is joining the military the price to pay? And our Founders were AGAINST a standing army like the one we have today. And I certainly don't want to go into a military that will be under the authority of the UN and sent in for "peacekeeping"

Hmmmmmmm,

With manditory military service everyone would be trained in the handeling of MG's paving the way to re-legalized postsample MG's.

Why the hell should I pay for something that is a right?! It is my right to be free. Do you also agree that anyone who wants to own a gun should pay a price? Howabout CCW fees? Paying for the right to defend yourself.

The way I see it, I am paying my way by contributing taxes to hire a professional army. (Yes they get paid jack shit, and it's a shame) When the time comes that that professional army is not up to the task of defending my freedom, then I'll 'pay my way' with my time and sweat rather than my money.

Heh heh-I was agreeing with Golgo-13, not disagreeing.

Got that, everyone? Agreement with his sentiments.

Juggernaut

I believe Rik is totally correct.  From what I remember from some constitutional law classes (I admit I am not a lawyer) the supreme court has held on several occasions that compulsory service was constitutional.  The exact same argument could be used for say prisons, taxes or any other thing that forces one to do anything. But than again it would also prove to be false.

I caught a glimpse of the military life in high school, I didn't like it.  There are many ways that people can serve the nation, not just in the military.  If we were in a situation in which all-out global war was imminent or happening, I'd join in an instant.  We aren't in that situation though.  

I worked as a telephone operator during the 9/11 mess.  I got hundreds of calls for the Red Cross, the days following I got hundreds of calls for recruiters.  Enlistment is up, and will continue to go up as the economy goes down.  We don't need mandatory conscription to make our country safe.  We aren't fighting trained armies numbering in the millions.  Enlistment is rising because of the events of 9/11.  Plenty of guys who WANT TO BE THERE are signing up and are doing a great job.  Forcing people who don't want to go won't make them "appreciate freedom" it will make them angry and bitter.  You can't tell me that the Vietnam generation is very happy about being sent to die in some 3rd world shitbag country over idiotic political wrangling.  And frankly, I don't want to be sent against my will to some shitbag 3rd world country to "peace-keep" or feed some starving turds.  

You pro-conscription guys go on and on about how we need to "pay for freedom."  That's all fine and dandy.  I'll pay when my time comes, but I will do so voluntarily, not against my will.  There isn't a condition requiring my service in the military, so I'm not going.  It's not childish selfishness, I just have much better things to do.  I want to finish school get a job as a trooper in VA and live my life AS I SEE FIT, not have it dictated to me by some overzealous wannabe patriot who likes to redefine "freedom" at will.

Conscription is slavery.  It is servitude against my will and I will not stand for it.

Oh!!!  And just how are you guys intending on paying for this?  Will the year or 2 be unpayed?  Or are you willing to fork over even more of your money?  Put up or shut up.

Conscription is not slavery, those who claim it is just don't ever want to be told what to do.  Just because you cannot accept something doesn't mean that it is something that is it not.  It means you are not willing to be told what to do.

So, which of the Founding Fathers was alive in 1865?
And, as STLRN has so sagely pointed out, the Supreme Court disagrees with your definition.

Oh, how could I forget?!  Slavery was legal in the FFs' time.

Blacks were also counted as 3/5s of a person.  The Constitution was made to improve with time.

[url]http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com-END Of Script Attempt-
s/casesearch.pl?cirestriction=CONSCRIPTION&court=us[/url]

The case law that conscription in both peace and war is constitutional.  It took like 10 seconds to find and I am not one, like some of you, that always going on about the constitution, other than the fact I am willing to look it up to whether it is constitutional, vice some who just want to look stupid and say things that are not true.

And nowhere in any of those improvements is there anything that prohibits the draft.

How about explaining why conscription is not slavery instead of attacking those of us who think it is. Maybey I should try that technique if I am ever in court. "Your honor, you're wrong because you are a pussy and don't agree with me."

Guess what, I think conscription is slavery and volunteer to be told what to do by my boss every day.

Btw, your second sentence is a nonsense argument. "Just because you cannot accept something doesn't mean that it is something that is it not." Just because you can't accept that forced military service is slavery does not mean that it isn't.

Instead of sitting here spewing "I'm right" back and forth, why don't we argue the issue. You explain why mandatory military service is not like slavery, and I'll explain why it is. Maybe I'll be forced to change my mind.

Here is one dictionary's definition of slavery:

a person who is legally owned by someone else, who works as a servant for that person, and who has no personal freedom

I argue that the proposed law under discussion is similar enough to this definition (the ownership part is a little shakey) to be considered a form of slavery.


One counter argument I guess could be that the draft is constitutional and hence legal, while slavery is not legal so the draft can't be slavery. I suspect you would have a hard time getting universal conscription in peace time ruled constitutional in the same way the draft was ruled legal when there was an extreme shortage of bodies.

Perhaps, as others have so willingly done, I should try to put into more defined terms what I am trying to say.

I begin by agreeing that there are probably more hobbyists and wannabees these days than there are true patriots.

What then, you may ask, is a patriot and what then is freedom?

To me, freedom is not something that should be employed as ones basis for sitting back and choosing [b][/i]not[/b][/i] to participate.

It is not, nor was it ever envisioned or designed to serve as the reason an individual or a group avoids an issue because that issue happens to threaten their own personal pursuits of life and happiness.  Freedom is not an activity, it is an idea........moreso to me, an ideal.

Sure, I can exercise my "freedom" and elect not to be proactive at all.  I can keep quiet, go with the flow and "hope" that things work out.  I can, for fear of losing my personal identity in life, avoid anything which costs me that which I am so very fond of; the ability to say no and declare that to be my right because I am free.

Maybe mandatory military service is not "the" answer.  I do know that we are raising a generation of young people who are accustomed to extending their hands and waiting on the goodie fairy to make a deposit of love, riches, good times and peace without them so much as getting their fat asses off the frickin sofa.

This is a recipe for disaster and it needs to be corrected.  For certain, the methods, ideas and programs of today are doing nothing to sustain and positively influence the ideals that freedom was founded on.

I am sure that none of the true patriots that helped forge this country were particularly fond of the idea of leaving their homes and families.  They faced unbeleivable odds with an overwhelming knowledge of almost certain death when they chose to lay down their plows and pick up their rifles.

At that point, at that moment of clarity, they  were no longer concerned simply for themselves and their little microcosmic planets.  They all gave in to a higher purpose for they knew that being free was not a singular issue.  It was an issue that had to be protected at all costs.

They fought, they gave, they sacrificed and many many of them died.  But, they blazed a path that should never be allowed to grow shut with laziness, apathy and gluttony.

To me, one who loves freedom dies for it.  He does not suck the last drop of milk from its withered teat and declare himself worthy of the title "a free man".





 

STLRN, RikWriter, Et. Al,

I don't give a fat rat's ass what cases you look up.  The government has no right to my life or that of my children.  You're so hot on military service, you go ahead and join up.  Make a career of it, if that suits you.  It still doesn't put you in the postion of knowing what is best for me and mine.
Why don't you do a little search on what the FF's thought of standing armies and how many conscripts served in the Revolutionary War?
BTW, I volunteered for military service all the way back in 1981 because it was my choice, not to "pay" for anything or because I had to.  I agree completely with those who say we are paying enough already, I gave the government $15k of my money to play with last year.
Admit it, you are advocating the use of force to compel people to do something against their will.  Why don't you try using the old "the ends justify the means" rationalization?

I just look at it this way, every one of us that did serve in the military, can look DOWN upon all of the "I don't wanna" and "You can't make me" crowd and think, What a bunch of pussies.

No conscription please.

I'd prefer that we stay seperate entities.

On the contrary, one of the few rights the government legitimately has is the right to ask you to defend your neighbors in the military.
As a matter of fact, a convincing argument can be made that one of the leading contributors to the decline of Rome was when they went from a compulsory citizen military to a hired mercenary army.



I did sign up.  The experience was valuable. If I am not mistaken, STLRN is currently in the military.  And I have as much right to an opinion as you do on this subject.  

Please explain to me how dying in any of the conflicts (other than the current one) of the last ? years was equal to dying for american freedom? Please note, I am not bashing folks who are in the military. I think a lot of what they do is quite admirable, but there is a  reason todays military is often called a "professional army". I agree that what was done by the founders of this country was dying for their country. Vietnam isn't so clear. Would the USA have fallen had we not been there at all?

Just for the record I am a military officer and really don't think a draft is necessary right now. The reason are not that we cannot train you or you will not do as expected (Since most of you are ignorant of the fact that the majority of the wars, except Vietnam, were fought by draftees. That is right the only war that some of you think we lost was fought by the highest proportion of volunteers of any of the "name" wars of the last century). But I feel that most Americans are too soft, what would be required to tough them up and get them ready for war could not happen because all the letters to congress. Lets face it, even from your post you can tell the attitude of the "me" generation has set in.

It is also extremely naive to think we fight for freedom, etc. We fight because we are an extension of America policy. If it makes some feel happy to think we kill for freedom, than fine. But we do it as part of America's interest and sometimes those interest involve the free flow of commerce, some time the protections of citizens and some time just national prestige.


The Crux of everyone who is anti-draft is that it is slavery and hence unconstitutional. However, those who get to decide that already have on numerous occasions and have said in so many words that it is both not slavery and is constitutional. Hence the argument that it is unconstitutional and in violation of the 13 Amendment is plain BS, that was the whole point about just because you say something doesn't make it true. The only argument that everyone clings to is the one that the government doesn't have the right to tell me, or my children what to do. Which we all know is also somewhat false, if you don't believe me send something to the IRS this year with how much you made, how much in taxes you owe and a statement telling them to come and take it.

The 13th ammendment wouldn't apply to prisons because it clearly allows slavery as a means to punish crime.