User Panel
Quoted:
I had always heard 'Start at the bellybutton , and work your way up to the head' or something like that. That sounds like terrible advice. A wound in the belly might take a very long time to disable someone. Sure, there are major blood vessels there and a hit anywhere is better than a miss, but that just doesn't seem to be a good strategy. I was taught to shoot 2-4 shots (with a pistol) to the thoracic cavity, reassess and apply one each to the head and pelvis, all as quickly as possible, preferably from cover and if not, while moving. This discussion underlines the importance of a multipronged approach to training. Static square range training is useful for introductory familiarization and learning the fundamentals of marksmanship but force on force, reactive steel, FATS, gun games like IDPA, and even draw and dry fire practice at home should all be incorporated into the training regimen. Formal training from several instructors is also mandatory. Instructors vary dramatically in their philosophy and curriculum. |
|
Quoted:
Attended a class the other day. One part stressed making very accurate basically clover leaf shoots and then it's better to spread the shots out in actual combat shooting. I can't recall ever hearing that somebody lost a gunfight because they punched a couple of holes too close together on a bad guy. I don't know who was teaching your class and what their level of experience is, and I'll say off the bat that I'm not a gunfighter...but it seems like a pretty gay theory to me. Seems to me that when it comes to getting people prepared for a gunfight, big difficulty number 1 is getting them to hit something. Big difficulty number 2 is getting them to the point where they can figure out where the vital structures in a bad guy are and to direct accurate fire at those vital structures. I think it gets a bit gay to start telling people to shoot for the left lung, then the right lung, then the spleen, then....etc. Generally I think the best you're going to be able to do is to get them to aim at either the high-chest area or the ocular window and then to put multiple rounds into those areas as quickly as possible. I don't think anyone who has ever been in a real shooting with a handgun has ever had the time to think "Ok, madge, I just put a round in his left lung, so now I need to aim for his right lung!" I can't recall ever talking to anyone who has ever used a handgun successfully in a live fire situation that was deliberately trying to put a round through multiple organs. (Except maybe a failure drill) If you're putting rounds more or less in the center of the chest at more or less the nipple line or above, the additional bullets you're putting in there aren't doing the bad guy any favors. If you're shooting the bad guy in the face you're not doing him any favors either...even if you aren't hitting the ocular window. I think I'll stick to my little scheme of aiming for the big timer or the off switch and pulling the trigger until the bad guy stops whatever he's doing. As far as I can tell it's an approach that has worked pretty good in lots of situations for lots of people in the past. |
|
We train to put them through the same hole. Reason being is that stress, movement and real world situtations will make that virtually impossible in a real shooting. I asked Henk Iverson this one day and he said "Would you rather enter a room with a guy who can put it through the same hole, or the guy who shoots birdshot." Now from a kill shot standpoint, no I would not want the bullet going through the same hole. Ideally I would put one between the eyes and bridge of the nose. But after that first shot who the hell knows where his head will be. Big difference between shooting a paper target and a human.
|
|
Of all the things to worry about if you are in a situation where you have to shoot someone, a cloverleaf pattern is the least of them.
If you can only hit the vital area in training, how many will be misses if you really have to shoot in a life or death encounter? I think in a real shooting, groups will open up just fine. |
|
I was wondering the same thing last range trip.Even shooting rapid fire my groups are very small shooting COM. Maybe us gun nuts are too good for our own good?
|
|
Hitting the target is important.
edit: I've been to some classes that emphasized the "many bullets one hole" concept, but its not a qual course, its a fundamentals block of training. Its standing there within a few feet of the target and putting all the shots into one hole because you are working the fundamentals correctly. That shouldn't be the focus during a qual course. |
|
It is unlikely that even bullet holes that are touching are going to enter at the exact same angle during a gun battle, or a hunting scenario.
Plus if you look at wound channels in real life they don't do like in gelatin. One might go in and up and the next go in and down or sideways. I shot a deer with a 2506 and trailed it. It was still some what alive [laying down but still moving a little] so I backed off and shot it again. Two holes about 1 inch apart netted two completely different wound channels. |
|
Quoted:
Attended a class the other day. One part stressed making very accurate basically clover leaf shoots and then it's better to spread the shots out in actual combat shooting. When I point shot and/or tuck shoot I purposly try to hit different spots. My rational is that 2 shots close together, while they make a big wound channel they may not cause fast incapacitalion. 2 shots spread out might hit a lung with one, liver with other etc and that is ALOT of damage/bleeding. Not sure if there is any truth to it, but makes me feel better, LOL J- |
|
Quoted:
Go ahead and shoot those tiny clover leafs in practice. When the lead starts flying your direction, your groups will spread out nicely. This ETA: I always assumed that would happen. So if I shoot 1" groups in practice they will probably open up to 6" groups....hopefully. If I was shooting 6" groups in practice I'd worry about them opening up to the point of missing completely under stress. Some probably will anyway. |
|
Just an example:
I know a guy who does the direct action thing for a living. He once went into a room where he encountered an individual who had great enthusiasm for meeting virgins in the afterlife. This gentleman, always eager to assist his fellow man, used his M4 to speed the journey of our brave mujaheddin fighter. A shot to the face resulted in...seemingly no response. (This gentleman is one of those CQB specialists that trains to shoot people in the ocular window at appropriately close ranges) He followed up with several more shots to the same area in rapid succession. Turns out that by a sheer fluke of physics the bad guy's knees locked and he slumped forward into a pole the gentleman hadn't noticed in his hurry to punch the martyr ticket. The muj was dead with the first shot, but because his knees locked and he slumped forward into the pole, his body stayed upright. The followup shots, while not strictly necessary, created a....void...where much of the guy's face used to be. The consensus was that continuing to shoot this guy in the face was a fairly effective response. |
|
Quoted:
This ETA: I always assumed that would happen. So if I shoot 1" groups in practice they will probably open up to 6" groups....hopefully. If I was shooting 6" groups in practice I'd worry about them opening up to the point of missing completely under stress. Some probably will anyway. [Larry Vickers] An extremely skilled shooter will be fortunate to find out that his groups only doubled in size under gunfight conditions. [/Larry Vickers] |
|
Quoted:
Just an example: I know a guy who does the direct action thing for a living. He once went into a room where he encountered an individual who had great enthusiasm for meeting virgins in the afterlife. This gentleman, always eager to assist his fellow man, used his M4 to speed the journey of our brave mujaheddin fighter. A shot to the face resulted in...seemingly no response. (This gentleman is one of those CQB specialists that trains to shoot people in the ocular window at appropriately close ranges) He followed up with several more shots to the same area in rapid succession. Turns out that by a sheer fluke of physics the bad guy's knees locked and he slumped forward into a pole the gentleman hadn't noticed in his hurry to punch the martyr ticket. The muj was dead with the first shot, but because his knees locked and he slumped forward into the pole, his body stayed upright. The followup shots, while not strictly necessary, created a....void...where much of the guy's face used to be. The consensus was that continuing to shoot this guy in the face was a fairly effective response. Undoubtedly the coolest story I will read about today. |
|
I say tight is good.
The only time one might not want to group well is if the GB is in a car. Remeber the video of the 4 GBs with rifles storming a home ower's house? The Home ower opened up with a Sweat group in the winsheild of the car, and did not hit anyone.. |
|
Quoted: Quoted: I have always shot expert in quals. The other day I had the opportunity to do some FATS training. Delivering accurate hits on a moving target is not easy. I had some scenarios that had a 50% miss ratio. In a force on force class as a bad guy I have found rounds shot into my foot and a bunch into my arms. When you are running all over the place cackling evilly and shooting, your opponent seems to have trouble making tight little groups in the middle of your chest. My experience as well. Also, I'm never NOT wearing gloves to another FOF training class, people tend to shoot at the weapon and subsequently your hands. |
|
That's only the CNS; I hope you don't think that's the only target. Center of mass also includes vital organs like heart, lungs, large blood vessels, the liver, etc. |
|
Quoted: I can't recall ever hearing that somebody lost a gunfight because they punched a couple of holes too close together on a bad guy. I don't know who was teaching your class and what their level of experience is, and I'll say off the bat that I'm not a gunfighter...but it seems like a pretty gay theory to me. Seems to me that when it comes to getting people prepared for a gunfight, big difficulty number 1 is getting them to hit something. Big difficulty number 2 is getting them to the point where they can figure out where the vital structures in a bad guy are and to direct accurate fire at those vital structures. I think it gets a bit gay to start telling people to shoot for the left lung, then the right lung, then the spleen, then....etc. Generally I think the best you're going to be able to do is to get them to aim at either the high-chest area or the ocular window and then to put multiple rounds into those areas as quickly as possible. I don't think anyone who has ever been in a real shooting with a handgun has ever had the time to think "Ok, madge, I just put a round in his left lung, so now I need to aim for his right lung!" I can't recall ever talking to anyone who has ever used a handgun successfully in a live fire situation that was deliberately trying to put a round through multiple organs. (Except maybe a failure drill) If you're putting rounds more or less in the center of the chest at more or less the nipple line or above, the additional bullets you're putting in there aren't doing the bad guy any favors. If you're shooting the bad guy in the face you're not doing him any favors either...even if you aren't hitting the ocular window. I think I'll stick to my little scheme of aiming for the big timer or the off switch and pulling the trigger until the bad guy stops whatever he's doing. As far as I can tell it's an approach that has worked pretty good in lots of situations for lots of people in the past. Well said. I often use an ultrasound on a sedated patient to locate organs and whatnot, and even that can take a little time. That's much easier than trying to use a pistol from 10 yards away on a moving, screaming target. I'll settle for COM unless situation demands head or other target. |
|
People often confuse "accuracy" with "Precision".
When you practice, you FIRST want to develop precision, so you hit in the SAME spot EVERY TIME, even if it's way off. THEN you worry about shifting your group. It is easier to shift your group than to tighten it. Besides, once you can do precise AND accurate fire, you can place your rounds wherever you want them (with a slight bit of spread due to combat circumstances, as O_P said). |
|
I suppose I should also mention that under gunfight conditions you'll likely be:
- point shooting - pulling the trigger as fast as you can - in a real big hurry ...so it's not really an environment that's terribly conducive to playing bullet tag on the bad guy's organs. |
|
I guess I am missing the point.
You need to be able to make both accurate/precise shots AND you need to be able to shoot fast. Different scenarios require different skills. In one scenario you may need to pop a guy at a close distance, and in that case speed may outweigh accuracy. While in another scenario you may be tasked with a headshot on a hostage taker who is partially behind cover. To say that one skill outweighs another in importance is not a valid statement in the real-world; but it may have been correct in the context of the class. |
|
Personally i try to shoot a smily face pattern in the bad guy .Wait i have never shot a bad guy or anyone for that matter .But when i shoot paper i try to get them all in the same ring.If i ever have to defend myself hopefully i can hit what i am shooting at.
|
|
Quoted:
Go ahead and shoot those tiny clover leafs in practice. When the lead starts flying your direction, your groups will spread out nicely. This. And also, the goal is to hit something vital. Hits elsewhere have little value. |
|
Quoted: I suppose I should also mention that under gunfight conditions you'll likely be: - point shooting - pulling the trigger as fast as you can - in a real big hurry ...so it's not really an environment that's terribly conducive to playing bullet tag on the bad guy's organs. Jeez JW ... you sound like you know what you're talking about My estimated round counts for FOF engagements were 4-5, and were actually 15+ ... all COM and face hits, but 0 used iron sights |
|
IMO speed and hits will trump slow and target shooting groups, I want to put as many rounds COM as possible as fast as possible so that someone will bleed out that much faster, I dont worry about a .5" group Id rather just have 2 or three rounds inches apart
|
|
Quoted:
10mm: No follow up shot needed possible. Unless you're like my brother-in-law (former line-backer for the Denver Bronco's...6'-4", 350 lbs with wrists the size of my thighs), the muzzle flip of a 10mm makes it a hunting round or a curious toy at best. IBTNotMe,IcanHolda50calstillasatombstoneLiars |
|
Quoted: Quoted: Unless you're like my brother-in-law (former line-backer for the Denver Bronco's...6'-4", 350 lbs with wrists the size of my thighs), the muzzle flip of a 10mm makes it a hunting round or a curious toy at best.10mm: No follow up shot needed possible. IBTNotMe,IcanHolda50calstillasatombstoneLiars You must have girly wrists or something, I'm 6'3" 190lb and I carry a G29... Granted i do have a bulldog grip and i'm not recoil-shy, but it's marginally slower back on target than my fullsize 1911, and it's darn accurate... (it's not for everybody, and i wouldn't feel undergunned with a G19, but i like 10mm) ETA: have you shot a Glock 10mm? they're nothing like a steel-framed gun as far as recoil... |
|
Quoted: Quoted: 10mm: No follow up shot needed possible. Unless you're like my brother-in-law (former line-backer for the Denver Bronco's...6'-4", 350 lbs with wrists the size of my thighs), the muzzle flip of a 10mm makes it a hunting round or a curious toy at best. IBTNotMe,IcanHolda50calstillasatombstoneLiars There's a Federal Air Marshall that shoots the local tactical match with a Delta Elite and places top every time locally. |
|
I would say its good to have tight groups on paper because when the SHTFs your grouping is going to open up quite a bit as other have stated, but is the end result any different if you put 3 holes into the heart or a hole in each lung and another into the cerebral cortex? I say no because the threat has been eliminated either way.
|
|
Quoted:
Quoted:
10mm: No follow up shot needed possible. Unless you're like my brother-in-law (former line-backer for the Denver Bronco's...6'-4", 350 lbs with wrists the size of my thighs), the muzzle flip of a 10mm makes it a hunting round or a curious toy at best. IBTNotMe,IcanHolda50calstillasatombstoneLiars Todays 10mm is not the same as our years with full blown Norma loads. 10mm lite is in. |
|
Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: 10mm: No follow up shot needed possible. Unless you're like my brother-in-law (former line-backer for the Denver Bronco's...6'-4", 350 lbs with wrists the size of my thighs), the muzzle flip of a 10mm makes it a hunting round or a curious toy at best. IBTNotMe,IcanHolda50calstillasatombstoneLiars Todays 10mm is not the same as our years with full blown Norma loads. 10mm lite is in. You mean the .40S&W |
|
Quoted:
You want to have tight groups now, because they're going to open up when you're under stress. This. 50% degradation of shooting skills in combat under fire/stress. Tight on the range = better chance of hitting IRL. |
|
Quoted:
Quoted:
10mm: No follow up shot needed possible. Unless you're like my brother-in-law (former line-backer for the Denver Bronco's...6'-4", 350 lbs with wrists the size of my thighs), the muzzle flip of a 10mm makes it a hunting round or a curious toy at best. IBTNotMe,IcanHolda50calstillasatombstoneLiars You're not holding the pistol properly if that's a problem. 10mm really isn't that hot of a round. I can shoot decent follow up shots with a .44 Magnum revolver. No reason you can't with a 10mm in a good auto pistol. |
|
Bama...tell me you be trollin'!
Aim small, miss small. Train for cloverleafs because you'll likely end up with 6" groups in a self defense scenario, anyways. Actually training for larger groups with the intent of delivering more lead to more real estate on the target? The amount of Fuck in that thought process makes my ears bleed. |
|
Id say so
better chance of hitting important stuff but i'm not gonna TRY to shoot large groups |
|
Quoted:
I would recommend sending them as straight as possible. The target's movement will provide the deviation. It has worked before...... /thread. Your target is the CENTER of your target. In real life, you're always gong to miss that mark by some degree, providing all the spreading-out of your hits that could ever be needed, AND MAYBE MORE, so there's no need to try to introduce more intentionally. |
|
Quoted: I carry some of the slightly older Hornady Custom stuff that came in the long skinny 20rd boxes, haven't seen any recently.Quoted: Todays 10mm is not the same as our years with full blown Norma loads.Quoted: Unless you're like my brother-in-law (former line-backer for the Denver Bronco's...6'-4", 350 lbs with wrists the size of my thighs), the muzzle flip of a 10mm makes it a hunting round or a curious toy at best.10mm: No follow up shot needed possible. IBTNotMe,IcanHolda50calstillasatombstoneLiars 10mm lite is in. It's 180gr at ~1300fps i believe and accurate... |
|
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
10mm: No follow up shot needed. this.. it produces a hole you can throw a cat through.. Plus the cat scratching and clawing as it tries to grab onto something as you throw it through enhances the damage in the wound channel. Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile Ah yes the dreaded "Cat-scratch-fever-induced-by-gaping-10mm-wounds" syndrome. |
|
A couple people have mentioned pelvic girdle failure drills as an option.
This is Dr Fackler's take on that. Seems sound, so just something to consider. Martin Fackler M.D.
"Shots to the Pelvic Area ". Wound Ballistics Review. 4(1):13; 1999. –– From the belt line to the top of the head, the areas most likely to rapidly incapacitate the person hit are concentrated in or near the midline. In the pelvis, however, the blood vessels are located to each side, having diverged from the midline, as the aorta and inferior vena cava divide at about the level of the navel. Additionally, the target that, when struck, is the most likely to cause rapid and reliable incapacitation, the spinal cord located in the midline of the abdomen, thorax and neck), ends well above the navel and 18 not a target in the pelvis. –– The pelvic branches of the aorta and inferior vena cava are more difficult to hit than their parent vessels –– they are smaller targets, and they diverge laterally from the midline (getting farther from it as they descend). Even if hit, each carry far less blood than the larger vessels from which they originated. Thus, even if one of these branches in the pelvis is hit, incapacitation from blood loss must necessarily be slower than from a major vessel hit higher up in the torso. –– Other than soft tissue structures not essential to continuing the gunfight (1oops of bowel, bladder) the most likely thing to be struck by shots to the pelvis would be bone. The ilium is a large flat bone that forms most of the back wall of the pelvis. The problem is that handgun bullets that hit it would not break the bone but only make a small hole in passing through it: this would do nothing to destroy bony support of the pelvic girdle. The pelvic girdle is essentially a circle: to disrupt its structure significantly would require breaking it in two places. Only a shot that disrupted the neck or upper portion of the shaft of the femur would be likely to disrupt bony support enough to cause the person hit to fall. This is a small and highly unlikely target: the aim point to hit it would be a mystery to those without medical training — and to most of those with medical training. Unfortunately, the pelvis shot fallacy is common. This fallacy, along with other misinformation, is promoted constantly by at least one gun writer who is widely published in the popular gun press. Because of this, I regularly debunk this fallacy by including some of the above rationale in my presentations to law enforcement firearm instructor groups.” |
|
For clarification, when I refer to a failure drill I'm talking about going from aiming at the high chest to aiming at the head. Pelvic shots are something you only take if the pelvis is the only target you have.
|
|
Quoted: For clarification, when I refer to a failure drill I'm talking about going from aiming at the high chest to aiming at the head. Pelvic shots are something you only take if the pelvis is the only target you have. Actually I didn't notice you saying anything about pelvic shots. |
|
Quoted: Quoted: Go ahead and shoot those tiny clover leafs in practice. When the lead starts flying your direction, your groups will spread out nicely. This ETA: I always assumed that would happen. So if I shoot 1" groups in practice they will probably open up to 6" groups....hopefully. If I was shooting 6" groups in practice I'd worry about them opening up to the point of missing completely under stress. Some probably will anyway. This. Its hard enough to point at center of a moving mass, trying to put on one side, and another shot 6" to the other side, will result in the shooter pulling too far to either side, and missing entirely. |
|
tight group. then if the scum was a organ donor, more to donate...
|
|
Interesting thread. Those of you that say train for cloverleafs are you talking about slow fire?
I always practice defense shooting doing very rapid fire. My group size at 5 yards shooting like this is 4inches. |
|
Quoted: Go ahead and shoot those tiny clover leafs in practice. When the lead starts flying your direction, your groups will spread out nicely. I often wonder how well the people at the range who's pistol targets look like giant punch cards will do in an actual firefight. Lots of holes in the walls and ceiling would be my guess. I can make a pretty tight group on a silhouette at the range. I have no confidence that I'll be able to do the same if someone is trying to kill me. |
|
Didn't know they gave out trophies for 'Best Grouping' in real world gaming.
|
|
Quoted:
A couple people have mentioned pelvic girdle failure drills as an option. This is Dr Fackler's take on that. Seems sound, so just something to consider. Martin Fackler M.D.
"Shots to the Pelvic Area ". Wound Ballistics Review. 4(1):13; 1999. –– From the belt line to the top of the head, the areas most likely to rapidly incapacitate the person hit are concentrated in or near the midline. In the pelvis, however, the blood vessels are located to each side, having diverged from the midline, as the aorta and inferior vena cava divide at about the level of the navel. Additionally, the target that, when struck, is the most likely to cause rapid and reliable incapacitation, the spinal cord located in the midline of the abdomen, thorax and neck), ends well above the navel and 18 not a target in the pelvis. –– The pelvic branches of the aorta and inferior vena cava are more difficult to hit than their parent vessels –– they are smaller targets, and they diverge laterally from the midline (getting farther from it as they descend). Even if hit, each carry far less blood than the larger vessels from which they originated. Thus, even if one of these branches in the pelvis is hit, incapacitation from blood loss must necessarily be slower than from a major vessel hit higher up in the torso. –– Other than soft tissue structures not essential to continuing the gunfight (1oops of bowel, bladder) the most likely thing to be struck by shots to the pelvis would be bone. The ilium is a large flat bone that forms most of the back wall of the pelvis. The problem is that handgun bullets that hit it would not break the bone but only make a small hole in passing through it: this would do nothing to destroy bony support of the pelvic girdle. The pelvic girdle is essentially a circle: to disrupt its structure significantly would require breaking it in two places. Only a shot that disrupted the neck or upper portion of the shaft of the femur would be likely to disrupt bony support enough to cause the person hit to fall. This is a small and highly unlikely target: the aim point to hit it would be a mystery to those without medical training — and to most of those with medical training. Unfortunately, the pelvis shot fallacy is common. This fallacy, along with other misinformation, is promoted constantly by at least one gun writer who is widely published in the popular gun press. Because of this, I regularly debunk this fallacy by including some of the above rationale in my presentations to law enforcement firearm instructor groups.” Fackler... I'd only shoot pelvis if that was all I had to shoot at. |
|
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
10mm: No follow up shot needed possible. Unless you're like my brother-in-law (former line-backer for the Denver Bronco's...6'-4", 350 lbs with wrists the size of my thighs), the muzzle flip of a 10mm makes it a hunting round or a curious toy at best. IBTNotMe,IcanHolda50calstillasatombstoneLiars There's a Federal Air Marshall that shoots the local tactical match with a Delta Elite and places top every time locally. thats because he shoots a 1911 |
|
Three shots in a tight group in the sternum will fuck someone up. One in the lung, one in the shoulder, one in the clavicle — maybe not so much.
|
|
Sign up for the ARFCOM weekly newsletter and be entered to win a free ARFCOM membership. One new winner* is announced every week!
You will receive an email every Friday morning featuring the latest chatter from the hottest topics, breaking news surrounding legislation, as well as exclusive deals only available to ARFCOM email subscribers.
AR15.COM is the world's largest firearm community and is a gathering place for firearm enthusiasts of all types.
From hunters and military members, to competition shooters and general firearm enthusiasts, we welcome anyone who values and respects the way of the firearm.
Subscribe to our monthly Newsletter to receive firearm news, product discounts from your favorite Industry Partners, and more.
Copyright © 1996-2024 AR15.COM LLC. All Rights Reserved.
Any use of this content without express written consent is prohibited.
AR15.Com reserves the right to overwrite or replace any affiliate, commercial, or monetizable links, posted by users, with our own.