Quoted: It sounds like you will never fully trust somebody again.  At least not until you recover from this experience. My main thought here is to leave room for you to remove the word "never" in the future. It took me about 5 years to resolve all of the feelings of betrayal, resentment, etc. that I had toward my first wife following the divorce. The current Mrs. Brohawk is a totally different person than my first spouse. We are a team.  We have each earned the other's trust (this is her second marriage, too - her first hubby was a jerk). She has taken accounting classes and is good with the books.  I've learned that I can trust her with management of our finances. I don't "ask her permission" to buy things, but I do communicate with her.  Likewise, if she wants to buy something she gives me a heads-up.  We don't seek permission from eachother, we keep eachother informed on what's going on. I've heard guys talk about buying a gun without telling their wife and sneaking it into the safe.  I don't do anything behind her back.  If I'm not hiding stuff from her, she has no reason to distrust me. I'm writing this to let you know that over time these things will heal, and that there are actually good women out there.  I just learned to be selective the hard way.   Until you can fully trust again, you can't fully love.  You will be holding back. I know, I was there.  After my divorce I wouldn't let anyone that close to me.  After my first wife ripped my heart out and stomped it I kept subsequent relationships superficial, shallow, and didn't let anybody inside the perimeter I established. Needless to say, those relationships weren't very satisfying. The main point right now is to resolve the current issues.  That will enable you to put this experience behind you and open new doors to your future. Like I said, it took me about 5 years.  However, now I've forgiven her and can honestly say I hope she's doing well, wherever she is.   Remember, forgiveness isn't just for the person you are forgiving - it also releases you. For years I carried all kinds of ugly feelings around about spouse #1.  We weren't in communication, so she had no idea I felt that way.  All that garbage was eating away at me inside.  When I let it go it was like a huge weight was lifted from me. What you're feeling right now is natural, but don't let it limit your future. Best to you.

Thanks, I think you nailed me dead on.

I will swallow a 9 mm round before I allow myself to fall in love again.

Quoted: With that attitude you won't have to worry about getting married again.....

How long you been married now?

.

financial issues destroy marriages more than every other issue combined

You read things like that, but after many years of being the guy everyone seems to ask for advice (since I'm the oldest male living on either side of my family) and after my wife worked as a marriage counselor for years, I'll have to strongly disagree with that statement.  Yes I've heard couples complain about money, but it's not an issue that's irreconcilable.  It's a problem, but it's not something that will cause a divorce except when taken to an extreme.

What my wife and I have seen destroy more marriages than not is lack of sex.  The wife uses it as a weapon or power trip, then the man resents it and does things (whether active like cheating or passive like ignoring her) to get back at her, then both parties are unhappy and the wife is even less likely to fix things.  My wife claims it always leads to other problems.  I can easily name a dozen couples I know that I don't think will make it another year due to this problem.  Of the 24 guys that work for me know, 21 of them are married and all complain about lack of sex.  Some are working on dry spells that are five years long, and they haven't been married much longer than that.  Also, a good friend that trained Baptists preachers in marriage counseling (who passed away a month ago, RIP) was certain this was the main cause of divorce today from what he'd seen and what his students have said.z

Quoted: I will swallow a 9 mm round before I allow myself to fall in love again.

Fuckin' A right.

Quoted: What my wife and I have seen destroy more marriages than not is lack of sex. < ... > Also, a good friend that trained Baptists preachers in marriage counseling (who passed away a month ago, RIP) was certain this was the main cause of divorce today from what he'd seen and what his students have said.z

Sure, but that tidbit of info will never make it into widespread circulation due to the PC police.

Just a personal observation: it is possible to love someone, marry them, completely share all finances, and not get screwed over.  I've known my wife for 40 years, been married to her for 34; we were so young when we married I was her legal guardian for a month until she turned 18.  I've been the primary breadwinner, she's focused on being the focal point of our home and family.  We've raised three sons who are truly something to be proud of.

After the first year of struggling to get our own agendas fulfilled (long and frequent arguments until the wee hours), we each actively committed to continuously work on helping each other succeed in making our life together work.

I listen to her carefully when she's worried, hurt, or scared, and I show her respect and honor her as a woman with integrity, courage, and class.  She does not manipulate me, lie to me, or use sex as a tool to control me (I could never get away with complaining that she withholds anything from me, including sex --- not even when one of us is angry).  She has nursed me when I was deathly ill for over a year (I might have given up & never recovered my health without her amazing support).  

I have become convinced over many years of experience that personal financial management is a significant indicator of personal integrity --- integrity is not honesty so much as "having it all together", personal wholeness as opposed to being a collection of disconnected pieces, all related to being mentally and spiritually healthy and functional.  The various accounts of horribly bad behavior posted here describe the classic signs of seriously "broken"/dysfunctional/out-of-integrity individuals --- also known as "flakes".  "Repurposing" or converting marital assets to individual assets may not be treated as a crime, but it is carried out by criminally flawed, flaky individuals.  Exploiting another person is morally bankrupt and flaky behavior whether the victim is a spouse or a stranger; manipulation, whether financial, emotional, or spiritual, is exploitation.

Want to guarantee a relationship will lose whatever meaning it might have had, whether potentially or actually?  Just have one or both parties to the relationship exploit the other.  Poof, meaningfulness disappears; the absence of meaning may go undetected for awhile, but it's not there.

I strongly suspect that the proportion of people who are living "out of integrity" at any one time vs. those who are "in integrity" is significantly large enough that we all are at considerable risk of encountering quite a lot of  people who are not worthy of our trust.  But choosing to withhold our trust wholesale from whole groups of people as a defense against the harm caused by the "flakes" eliminates the possibility of a really wonderful and meaningful relationship between a man and a woman.  Gotta take the risk to obtain the reward...

My recommendation, submitted here with humility:  treat others as trustworthy while relentlessly holding them accountable for doing all that they say they will do.  The ones who are out of integrity will resent being held accountable, and their resentment and lack of accountability will reveal them as unreliable; most flakes will get the hell away from you rather than tolerate being held accountable --- the rest of the flakes (a very small portion, sadly) will get their act together and actually become accountable.  For folks who actually are accountable and in integrity, doing what they say they will do and being expected to keep their promises is no insult --- it's like breathing.  It's what you do when you're all of one piece.

At the end of the day, after 34 years of matrimony, my spouse and I are powerfully and successfully bonded in mutual support and symbiosis because we have held each other fully accountable for keeping all our promises.

Quoted: Just a personal observation: it is possible to love someone, marry them, completely share all finances, and not get screwed over.  I've known my wife for 40 years, been married to her for 34; we were so young when we married I was her legal guardian for a month until she turned 18.  I've been the primary breadwinner, she's focused on being the focal point of our home and family.  We've raised three sons who are truly something to be proud of. After the first year of struggling to get our own agendas fulfilled (long and frequent arguments until the wee hours), we each actively committed to continuously work on helping each other succeed in making our life together work. I listen to her carefully when she's worried, hurt, or scared, and I show her respect and honor her as a woman with integrity, courage, and class.  She does not manipulate me, lie to me, or use sex as a tool to control me (I could never get away with complaining that she withholds anything from me, including sex --- not even when one of us is angry).  She has nursed me when I was deathly ill for over a year (I might have given up & never recovered my health without her amazing support).   I have become convinced over many years of experience that personal financial management is a significant indicator of personal integrity --- integrity is not honesty so much as "having it all together", personal wholeness as opposed to being a collection of disconnected pieces, all related to being mentally and spiritually healthy and functional.  The various accounts of horribly bad behavior posted here describe the classic signs of seriously "broken"/dysfunctional/out-of-integrity individuals --- also known as "flakes".  "Repurposing" or converting marital assets to individual assets may not be treated as a crime, but it is carried out by criminally flawed, flaky individuals.  Exploiting another person is morally bankrupt and flaky behavior whether the victim is a spouse or a stranger; manipulation, whether financial, emotional, or spiritual, is exploitation. Want to guarantee a relationship will lose whatever meaning it might have had, whether potentially or actually?  Just have one or both parties to the relationship exploit the other.  Poof, meaningfulness disappears; the absence of meaning may go undetected for awhile, but it's not there. I strongly suspect that the proportion of people who are living "out of integrity" at any one time vs. those who are "in integrity" is significantly large enough that we all are at considerable risk of encountering quite a lot of  people who are not worthy of our trust.  But choosing to withhold our trust wholesale from whole groups of people as a defense against the harm caused by the "flakes" eliminates the possibility of a really wonderful and meaningful relationship between a man and a woman.  Gotta take the risk to obtain the reward... My recommendation, submitted here with humility:  treat others as trustworthy while relentlessly holding them accountable for doing all that they say they will do.  The ones who are out of integrity will resent being held accountable, and their resentment and lack of accountability will reveal them as unreliable; most flakes will get the hell away from you rather than tolerate being held accountable --- the rest of the flakes (a very small portion, sadly) will get their act together and actually become accountable.  For folks who actually are accountable and in integrity, doing what they say they will do and being expected to keep their promises is no insult --- it's like breathing.  It's what you do when you're all of one piece. At the end of the day, after 34 years of matrimony, my spouse and I are powerfully and successfully bonded in mutual support and symbiosis because we have held each other fully accountable for keeping all our promises.

Wow! Outstanding post & great wisdom has now been past to me. I can trust while holding accountable any who I am involved with.

Thank you sir, very very much.

I will never again choose as poorly as I did the first time....

Quoted: <wisdom of the ages snipped> My recommendation, submitted here with humility:  treat others as trustworthy while relentlessly holding them accountable for doing all that they say they will do. <wisdom of the ages snipped>

[reagan] Trust, but verify. [/reagan]



A most excellent third post, sir.



Also, I would like to add that it was a delight to read something with good paragraphs, sentence structure, grammar, and spelling.

Why is the government even in the marriage business? It was originally just a religious ceremony, so why is it anyone else's business if I'm married or not married or shacked up with a duck and a platypus? Perfect example of how bureaucracies grow and insinuate their tentacles to control and tax subjects ever more. (* Editor's note: I would never shack up with a duck and a platypus unless they were EXTREMELY attractive. I'm generally opposed to inter-species dating.)

There's a HUGE systemic bias in the family law system. If you're a man with some money, you have nothing to gain by marriage, but you're risking everything. Think about it. Did you get more sex after you were married? You probably got a lot less. Did you get your house cleaned? I get that for fifty bucks a week. If your marriage works out, great - you get to keep your stuff. If it doesn't work out, you learn the hard way that your house and assets transferred to your bride the day you said "I do". You've been existing at her pleasure since then.

The whole marriage/divorce thing has become nothing but a profit industry. I think it's a tradition headed for extinction within a few generations.

Quoted: Quoted: I learned a few things the hard way through my divorce & thusly no longer look at marriage the same. If & when I ever find another woman I desire to give up my new found freedom for, there are things I will never do again for love or marrage. Here is my short list off the top O' me skull. 1) I will never let another person be incharge of my paycheck. 2) I will never let somone else run my household finances. 3) I will never ask permission from my wife to do the things I want to do, or I what I can spend my money on. 4) I will never justify to my wife anything I buy. 5) I will never let my wife manipulate me with guilt over things I feel no guilt about to begin with. 6) I will not stay in a situation with a wife who will not seek help for mental problems after I have insisted, or pleaded she get some. (I refuse to stay with somone who's illness of mind make life miserable for me) When you get married, you become a partnership. Your bills are her bills, you both have to chip in to the common bills. There is no such thing as "your" or "her" paycheck at that point, nor is there "your" or "her" household expenses. Maybe that thinking is  where your problem comes from.

my thinking as well.

If sex is the most important thing in your life then don't get married and please don't have kids.

Quoted: When you get married, you become a partnership. Your bills are her bills, you both have to chip in to the common bills. There is no such thing as "your" or "her" paycheck at that point, nor is there "your" or "her" household expenses. Maybe that thinking is  where your problem comes from. No. I think his problem comes from turning over his money to a spouse who has no financial management skills and psychological problems. It's his responsibility to ensure the bills are paidand excessive debt is not incurred. He delegated that responsibilty to her and got screwed. He learned a valuable lesson. You can love someone without letting them hold your wallet.

This is true. My wife and I have been together for 25 years. She proved early on that she could not be responsible with money. I pay the bills and give her spending money.

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: I learned a few things the hard way through my divorce & thusly no longer look at marriage the same. If & when I ever find another woman I desire to give up my new found freedom for, there are things I will never do again for love or marrage. Here is my short list off the top O' me skull. 1) I will never let another person be incharge of my paycheck. 2) I will never let somone else run my household finances. 3) I will never ask permission from my wife to do the things I want to do, or I what I can spend my money on. 4) I will never justify to my wife anything I buy. 5) I will never let my wife manipulate me with guilt over things I feel no guilt about to begin with. 6) I will not stay in a situation with a wife who will not seek help for mental problems after I have insisted, or pleaded she get some. (I refuse to stay with somone who's illness of mind make life miserable for me) When you get married, you become a partnership. Your bills are her bills, you both have to chip in to the common bills. There is no such thing as "your" or "her" paycheck at that point, nor is there "your" or "her" household expenses. Maybe that thinking is  where your problem comes from. my thinking as well.

Just so you know, I gave her my paycheck, & got a whopping $25 a month allowence.
When she left she hadn't payed the bills for 3 months, & stopped by my place of employment picked up, signrd my paycheck on Friday while I slept. She emptied all the accounts & left me with no money many late bill, & a bunch of bounced checks because she took the money out before the checks went through.
I was married for 14 yrs & 10 days when this occured. I trusted her with my lifes blood & breath & this is how she repaid my trust, & this is what has caused me to feel the way I do about my paycheck.

PS, my credit is really screwed up because of all of this as well. I couldn't even get a loan to buy a couch after she left me. She also took everything in the house except my guns praise be to God forever!

Quoted: financial issues destroy marriages more than every other issue combined You read things like that, but after many years of being the guy everyone seems to ask for advice (since I'm the oldest male living on either side of my family) and after my wife worked as a marriage counselor for years, I'll have to strongly disagree with that statement.  Yes I've heard couples complain about money, but it's not an issue that's irreconcilable.  It's a problem, but it's not something that will cause a divorce except when taken to an extreme. What my wife and I have seen destroy more marriages than not is lack of sex.  The wife uses it as a weapon or power trip, then the man resents it and does things (whether active like cheating or passive like ignoring her) to get back at her, then both parties are unhappy and the wife is even less likely to fix things.  My wife claims it always leads to other problems.  I can easily name a dozen couples I know that I don't think will make it another year due to this problem.  Of the 24 guys that work for me know, 21 of them are married and all complain about lack of sex.  Some are working on dry spells that are five years long, and they haven't been married much longer than that.  Also, a good friend that trained Baptists preachers in marriage counseling (who passed away a month ago, RIP) was certain this was the main cause of divorce today from what he'd seen and what his students have said.z

That's just wrong...

Quoted: Just a personal observation: it is possible to love someone, marry them, completely share all finances, and not get screwed over.  I've known my wife for 40 years, been married to her for 34; we were so young when we married I was her legal guardian for a month until she turned 18.  I've been the primary breadwinner, she's focused on being the focal point of our home and family.  We've raised three sons who are truly something to be proud of...

Without requoting your entire post, I just want to say that is the best piece of writing I have read in years.

You, sir, are blessed with a good woman, and the ability to write about it!

Rock on!

Quoted: If sex is the most important thing in your life then don't get married and please don't have kids.

It may not be the most important thing, but if you don't think it matters, you ain't gettin' laid enough!

Twenty five year veteran of marriage here with three kids and still going strong... in and out of bed.

Related thread here.

Quoted: Just so you know, I gave her my paycheck, & got a whopping $25 a month allowence. When she left she hadn't payed the bills for 3 months, & stopped by my place of imployment picked up, signrd my paycheck on Friday while I slept. She emptied all the accounts & left me with no money many late bill, & a bunch of bounced checks because she took the money out before the checks went through. I was married for 14 yrs & 10 days when this occured. I trusted her with my lifes blood & breath & this is how she repaid my trust, & this is what has caused me to feel the way I do about my paycheck. PS, my credit is really screwed up because of all of this as well. I couldn't even get a loan to buy a couch after she left me. She also took everything in the house except my guns praise be to God forever!

Your problems existed long before the day she actually walked out the door.

Quoted: Quoted: So what's on your list of never agains? Don't get married again.

+ elventy bazillion

Quoted: Quoted: When you get married, you become a partnership. Your bills are her bills, you both have to chip in to the common bills. There is no such thing as "your" or "her" paycheck at that point, nor is there "your" or "her" household expenses. Maybe that thinking is  where your problem comes from. Good luck with that theory.

Luck's got nothing to do with it. Choose wisely.

tag

Quoted: I will swallow a 9 mm round before I allow myself to fall in love again.

It's sad that you would deny yourself that happiness

Quoted: Quoted: What my wife and I have seen destroy more marriages than not is lack of sex. < ... > Also, a good friend that trained Baptists preachers in marriage counseling (who passed away a month ago, RIP) was certain this was the main cause of divorce today from what he'd seen and what his students have said.z Sure, but that tidbit of info will never make it into widespread circulation due to the PC police.

The lack of sex is a symptom of the problem, not the problem itself.  IMHO the problem is communication.  The woman feels she has the threaten the man with removal of one of his needs to get her needs met rather than talk to him about it.  Maybe she has tried talking to him about it and he has just refused to meet her needs...  Maybe her needs are so inappropriate to their lifestyle that he has to dismiss them, but doesn't explain to her why...  

Saying it is about sex is just silly.  It's about power, about basic caring for what the other wants, and about communication.

Girls like sex too.  We don't like going without it either.  (unless you are an idiot, who doesn't care whether your partner gets off or not)