You took the words right out of my mouth [b]G-man[/b]!!



...of course I would have spelled "believing" correctly [;D]

Post from garandman -

[b]ChuckT[/b] beat me to it!

What in the world do you think that [red][b]'he that believeth not...[/b][/red] should mean?

If you don't believe (BTW, have we figured out if belief is a 'work'?) then all the water baptism in the world will not avail you anything in the next world!

Eric The(BaptizingAndBelieving,Etc.)Hun[>]:)]

Post from The_Macallan -

That's nice, but we should really take Christ at His word.

I've got my precious little Granddaughter sitting here with me, in my lap.

I've got to take care of her, and then go to the AR15.com Dinner at 8:00, so I probably will not be back on this thread until late.

But I will further discuss the differences between works, sacraments, and initiation rites when I return!

Eric The(Granddaddy)Hun[>]:)]

Apparently so otherwise it would have read:

And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not [b][red][u]OR[/u][/red] is baptized not[/b] shall be damned. Mark 16:15,16


[red][b]Why do you suppose he included "and is baptized" to those who will be saved but DID NOT include "OR is baptized not" to those who are damned?[/b][/red]

Seems if he included BOTH "belief and baptism" as a description of those who will be saved, he should have included BOTH in the description of who is damned...

...UNLESS it is ONLY belief that is absolutely 100% necessary for salvation.

And out of our belief naturally comes repentence of the heart.

Gladly.  My break here at work isn't long enough for me to type in all of them, so I'll have to do it after work today (they will be pretty long, so I'll warn you now).

The_Macallan,

I'm probably wrong on this, but aren't you Catholic (quoting the [i]Catechism of the Catholic Church[/i], and all)?

You guys are are a great resource !


Is little chen going to heaven ?

Someone help me out ?

Then why is that not stated in the Bible???

NOWHERE do I find the words stating that baptism is REQUIRED for salvation.

The word "shall" designates those who "will be able to" be saved but does not NECESSARILY exclude others who "shall" also be saved through other means.

It does not imply "is a requirement for" but rather it implies a less-restrictive "is a condition for"

Example:
The phrase "I shall let my friends bearing gifts come to my party tomorrow; but those who are not my friends shall not enter" does NOT necessitate that "my friends without gifts" are are excluded.

No, it happens all the time.

Some believers are baptized, then many years later they reject their beliefs and reject Jesus and become staunch "unbelievers" working against Christ.

In those cases, their baptism won't save them.

When baptism and salvation are mentioned in the same passage, salvation is always mentioned after baptism.

Baptized-Saved
Mk. 16.16
"He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved."

Baptized-Remission of Sins
Acts 2.38
"Repent and be baptizedevery one of yo in the name of Jesus Christ fro the remission of sins"

Baptized-Wash Away Sins
Acts 22.16
"Arise and be baptized and wash away thy sins."

Baptized-Sins
1Pet 3.21
"Baptism doth also now save us"

Not clear?

Dram

Christ Himself in Matt. 28:19-20:

Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, [b]baptizing[/b] them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age."

If it's important to Christ, it's important to me.  You can only be a disciple if you accept Christ as your Savior [u]and[/u] are baptized.

We're really only disagreeing on semantics here because I don't think anyone would advocate repentance and acceptance that Jesus is the Messiah who died for our sins, was buried and resurrected, and [b]then[/b] say "Nah, you don't really need to be baptized, as long as you believe."

Yes, I am and I was taught by several priests (and learned on my own studies) that the Catholic Church does not teach that the "ritual of baptism" is NECESSARY for all salvation.

Seems clear to me.  What's not to get?

Correct. Official Catholic position is that you do not need a physical baptism to be "saved" but only the desire. Of course, the real thing should be done if at all possible.

-legrue

This is gonna be a good thread, I'll be there in a few....

They're gonna hafta be mighty quick about it....

That's a non sequitur argument. Discarded.

The words "shall be saved" simply mean "must or will be saved".

They do NOT mean "is the [u]only[/u] means by which one will be saved".

I used this analogy earlier:

The phrase "I shall let my friends bearing gifts come to my party tomorrow; but those who are not my friends shall not enter" does NOT necessitate that "my friends without gifts" are are excluded.


Not clear??


"also"?!?

"Also" - as in addition to - what OTHER means BESIDES baptism can one be saved?

This passage implies that baptism is only one of several means to be saved.



Bottom-Line:

There are many passages that have Jesus describing how to be accepted into his Father's Kingdom that do NOT include the phrase "baptism" in it (some posted earlier here).

And for the ones you and [b]ETH[/b] keep referring to, you're using faulty logic and improper meanings of the word "shall" to arrive at your conclusion about baptism and salvation.

In a hundred years, I pray we all be laughing together at our puny pronouncements here as we glorify the Lord in His very presence - by His own Grace.

Eph 2: 8-9

What part of "not of works" don't you get???

Works = things you DO. Baptism is something you DO.

Therefore, since salvation is not of works, therefore baptism is NOT a REQUIREMENT FOR SALVATION.

(By baptism, I mean the physical act of being submerged under water - and then unsubmerged.)

Theres NOTHING magical in the water.

Post from The_Macallan -

Well, when you see Him, The_Macallan, the first thing I want you to do is to chastise Him for how He mangled His sentences....[:D]

Or you can make sense out of what He said very simply.

Forget the 'learned doctors of the Church', they burned Christians every chance they got, and found authority to do so from the words of Christ Himself (or so they said!).

Just read it as a Jewish farmer, fisherman, or day laborer might have understood it. For the very least of these, His Brethren, were the very ones He came to find and teach.

And they seemed to understand Him much better than the learned Doctors of Law in the Temple, did they not?

Now, The_Macallan, I simply cannot believe that you are unable to understand what Jesus said in this passage from Mark, Chapter 16.

Jesus says TO US, Go ye and preach! What? The Gospel! To whom? Every living creature!

And he that (1) believeth, and (2) is baptized, shall be saved. Period. End of story.

He that believeth not, well, we're not going to be concerned about him, now, are we?

He hasn't even met the first condition, which is to believe.

If that were to be accepted, then you or the Church would have to take away something that Jesus said, plainly and clearly.

[b]Baptism![/b] How did Jesus feel about baptism? He joined the others of the lost sheep of Israel, in line, for John's baptism.

When it came His time, John was astounded! From Matthew, Chapter 3:

13   Then cometh Jesus from Galilee to Jordan unto John, to be baptized of him.

14   But John forbad him, saying, I have need to be baptized of thee, and comest thou to me?

15   And Jesus answering said unto him, [red][b]Suffer it to be so now: for thus it becometh us to fulfill all righteousness[/b][/red]. Then he suffered him.

16   And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him:

17   And lo a voice from heaven, saying, [b]This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.[/b]

Jesus was baptized Himself in order that [u]all[/u] righteousness might be fulfilled!

And He received acclamation from the Father for pleasing Him in such manner, just as you will please the Father by fulfilling the command to be baptized!

This is really, really simple stuff, if you would just follow it with your heart.

Jesus was not acknowledging any sin on His part by being baptized, He was simply giving us His example to follow!

If Jesus thought it necessary to be baptized, then what sure sign did [u]you[/u] receive from Heaven that said you didn't need to be baptized?

Share your revelation with us!

Eric The(Baptism,Anyone?)Hun[>]:)]

The end, Mark 23-27 for just 1 of several examples...Note verse 24, AFTER THAT TRIBULATION.
23  But take ye heed: behold, I have foretold you all things.
24 ¶ But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light,
25  And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken.
26  And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.
27  And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven......

Alright. And I'll be sure give him your regards too. [;)]


No problem there.

As long as he believeth he could be baptized, martinized, pasteurized and homogenized for all I care.

Just as long as he BELIEVES in Jesus...

John 3:16.
[i]For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.[/i]

[b]Period. End of story.[/b]




Yes it is RIGHT to be baptized.

It is also RIGHT to "be perfect" just as your Father in heaven is perfect.

But that ain't realistic - so we have the Grace of God to save us, through Jesus Christ.

The answer to this is found in the Old Testament, of all places.

Namely, Abraham.

Galatians 3


Abraham beleived God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness (No mention of Baptism)

Christ's parables reveal to us Abraham is now in heaven.

Therefore, by faith, Abraham was saved, same as we are, but without baptism.

Now, the usual objection to this clear and simple approach is to say "God was doing things differently in the Old testament."

But that is NOT true, because Scripture also tells us


Heb 13: 8  Jesus Christ is the same yesterday today and forever (That which He does now, he has always done)

Reve. 13: 8 - Jesus Christ, the Lamb slain [b]from the founadtion of the world[/b] (indicates nothing new was instituted with Jesus death on the cross that hadn't been started before time began)

Mal 3: 6 -
I am the Lord, I change not (God neither changes His mind, his methods, His ways of dealing with man)

We see a continuity in God's ways thru all time. Nothing different is happeneing now than what happened in the Old Testament.

There is no record of OT saints getting baptized, and yet we KNOW they went to heaven. Therefore baptism is NOT necessary for salvation.

And NO, the OT was NOT under a differnet system (See the verses above - God DOES NOT change. EVER.)

Hah!!

Loonybin ya just beat me to it.

But then again poor ol' G man thinks it means amniotic fluid you know.

In baptism you are buried in the likeness of Christs death to be reborn as a new spiritual creature. That which Nicodemus did not understand was this selfsame concept. Baptism is composed of water which we are buried in, and spiritual baptism that Christ gave us.... the part the John the Baptist lacked. He did not baptise with the holy spirit, but in anticipation of one who would come with the full baptism. In Acts 19 4-5 those who had received Johns baptism unto repentance when informed of the baptism of Jesus... were baptised in Jesus name.

G-man, if you wish to kick against the goads as did Paul, do so at your peril. I have accepted the very plain will of the Lord and do not complicate it with the doctrines of man, hook line and sinker baptist doctrine(even though you are not baptist). Tell Jesus, ah you could not have meant what you said so plainly and asked for so patiently. Tell him you believe in him.... remember the servants of satan also believe in him with fear and trembling. Tell him even though he asked for it, you dont need it, you did it just as a matter of form. Tell Jesus that his chosen symbol of rebirth is not necessary, you know, even though he is the son of GOD and all. He must have been mistaken when he put all those baptism scriptures in, cuz you know, he is rather absent minded.........hmmm....... the Son of God, Emmanuelle, God with us, made a mistake.... the holy ghost goofed?

NO.

You have made the mistake of listening to man and not reading the plain language of the Word. The Word was written in the vernacular, or common tongue of the time, not in a circuitous and dead language. The meanings are simple and neither a fool nor a wayfarer may err therein. I will tell you that I most assuredly do not know better than Jesus, you apparently do as you brazenly discard his will and cling to one or two scriptures to ensure eternal life. I have a plethora of incontravertable proof that Jesus himself wants us baptized to recieve the gift of eternal life. Baptism isnt a work to earn eternal life it is a STIPULATION AND A REQUIREMENT set down in Christs last will and testament.... the New Testament... and in order to be an inheritor of his bounty.... to lay claim to his legacy and our inheritance you must DO that which he COMMANDS us to do to receive that inheritance. Dont worry, just because he commands it, you dont need it. Ummm....yeah right!

Turn your back on Christs requests at your peril, and remember this applies to ME also. I set aside his will at my eternal peril and would dice with my eternal welfare. Thief on the cross indeed! Christ bestowing his gifts on those he chose to, and you would apply it to yourself? It is from Christs own lips that the thief heard his immortal sentence commuted, NOW DID HE TELL YOU, "THIS DAY YOU WILL BE WITH ME IN PARADISE?" Hah! No you didnt and neither did I. He told US John 3:5.


Dram out.

Then you need brush up on your catechesis, because the very [i]Catechism of the Catholic Church[/i] you quote says that:
"The Lord himself affirms that Baptism is necessary for salvation... Baptism is necessary for salvation for thsoe to whom the Gospel has been proclaimed and who have had the possibility of asking for this sacrament.  The Church does not know of any means other than Baptism that assures entry into eternal beatitude; this is why she takes care not to neglect the mission she has received from the Lord to see that all who can be baptized are 'reborn of wather and the Spirit.'  God has bound salvation to the sacrament of Baptism, but he himself is not bound by his sacraments." (CCC 1257)

Open up your CCC again and read paragraphs 1257-1261 again.  It is very clear the Church teaches that Baptism is necessary for salvation.  If those priests told you otherwise, then you were misled. (they weren't Jesuits, by any chance, were they?)

Yes, #1260 says that those who are "ignorant of the Gospel of Christ and of his Church... can be saved."  It also says immediately after that "It may be supposed that such persons would have [i]desired Baptism explicity[/i] if they had KNOWN OF ITS NECESSITY." (all caps mine)

IOW, since they didn't have access to Baptism, God judges them based on the light they have been given.  This does not negate the necessity of Baptim, but underscores God's mercy toward those who are genuinely ignorant of His message or die w/o the opportunity to be Baptized.  It is called a normative necessity, but it is necessary, nonetheless.

I, too, have been educated by priests (Franciscans and Dominicans) and my own studies (called a BA in Theology with a focus on Religious Education from Franciscan University of Steubenville).  

I'd like to recommend a few sites to you for some more of your own studies:

[url]http://www.lumenverum.com/apologetics/baptism.htm[/url] 2nd paragraph on down.
[url]http://www.ewtn.com/library-END Of Script Attempt-
ur/sacrmnt.TXT[/url] for a brush-up on what a sacrament is/does
[url]http://www.mark-shea.com/narrow.html[/url]
[url]http://www.ewtn.com/library/DOCTRINE/SACRAMEN.TXT[/url] down a way to effects of Baptism
[url]http://www.catholic.net/rcc/Periodicals/Faith/7-8-98/SACRAMENTS3.html[/url] the saving waters of Baptism

Interesting that you say that, because Paul didn't look at it that way.  When he was referring to works in Eph. he was referring to the Mosaic law.  When he says "work out your own salvation in fear and trembling,? he's referring to works of charity, the moral life, prayer, etc.


But they happen at the same time!  As a person is baptized with water, God's grace is poured out on them through the Holy Spirit.  That's why Jesus said we must be born of "water and the Spirit."  Check out [url]http://www.cin.org/users/james/questions/q021.htm[/url]

OK, In the King James Version of the Bible there are 111 occurrences of the word baptism or similar forms of the root word.  Of those occurrences 56 are in connection with John the Baptist and his baptism of repentance,  5 occurrences just refer to water baptism, 7 refer to baptism by the Holy Spirit and/or fire, and 42 do not specify.  

I believe that in the New Testament there are two types of baptism: one by the Holy Spirit and one by water.  The baptism of the Holy Spirit which automatically happens at the point of your conversion is neccessary for salvation, water baptism is not.  All this "baptism of the Holy Spirit" means is the Holy Spirit comes to live inside of you at the point of your salvation.

John's water baptism was one of repentance.  Luke 3:3 "He (John the Baptist) went into all the country around the Jordan, preaching a baptism of repentance for the forgiveness of sins."
Acts 19:1-5  Please read the whole text, I'll just paraphrase.  Paul asks some disciples what baptism they received and they say John's baptism.  Paul then says, ""John's baptism was a baptism of repentance.  He told the people to believe in the one coming after him, that is, in Jesus."  On hearing this, they were baptized into the name of the Lord Jesus. When Paul placed his hands on them, the Holy Spirit came on them . . . "  

As far as the baptism of the Holy Spirit,  John the baptist addresses it in Luke 3:16
Luke 3:16 "John answered them all, "I baptize you with water.  But one more powerful than I will come, the thongs of whose sandals I am not worthy to untie.  He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and with fire."
Jesus says before his ascension in Acts 1:5 "For John baptized with water, but in a few days you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit."

I (wife of Tonys68L36) am a baptist and have been baptized but I believe that my baptism with water is not what saved me.  I am saved because I accepted Jesus Christ as my personal Savior and Lord and have the Holy Spirit living inside of me as my proof.  Baptism in the Greek is "baptizo" and literally means "to be identified with."  I believe that water baptism is simply a way to be identified with Christ. In my church, it is used as a public profession of your faith. An outward sign of the change (baptism of the Holy Spirit) that has already occurrred within.

For More Information see:
Strong's Exhaustive Concordance (first published in the 1800's) latest publication 2001  

Let's see...

I wrote:
"...the Catholic Church does not teach that the "ritual of baptism" is NECESSARY for [red]ALL[/red] salvation."


Then You wrote:

"Baptism is necessary for salvation [red]for those to whom the Gospel has been proclaimed and who have had the possibility of asking for this sacrament.[/red]"


Well since it's obvious that not ALL have had the Gospel [u]proclaimed to them[/u], and not ALL [u]comprehend[/u] it as you do, and have not ALL have had the possibility of [u]asking[/u] for baptism, [b]then baptism is obviously not necessary for ALL salvation.[/b]

You just reinforced my original point I stated.

Thanks.


But let's read through this [b]loonybin[/b]-
1257: [i]"God has bound salvation to the sacrament of Baptism, but he himself is not bound by his sacraments."[/i]

Seems that God is not bound to save ONLY those who are baptized, but rather being baptized IS bound to salvation.

And this -
1258: [i]"The Church has always held the firm conviction that those who suffer death for the sake of the faith [b]without having received Baptism[/b] are baptized by their death for and with Christ. This Baptism of blood, like the desire for Baptism, brings about the fruits of Baptism without being a sacrament."[/i]

Uh-HUH. So there ARE other ways to be saved WITHOUT baptism. Hmmm. Interesting. That's what I thought I said.

And this -
1259: [i]"For catechumens who die [b]before their Baptism[/b], their explicit desire to receive it, together with repentance for their sins, and charity, assures them the salvation that they were not able to receive through the sacrament.[/i]

Hmm... there it is again! More people dying without being baptized and yet who are still saved!!

Amazing this thing called Grace!!

And this -
1260: [i]"Every man who is ignorant of the Gospel of Christ and of his Church, but seeks the truth and does the will of God in accordance with his understanding of it, [b]can be saved."[/b][/i]

Okay... I think this settles it.

According to the Catholic Church Catechism, baptism is OBVIOUSLY NOT NECESSARY for [b]ALL[/b] salvation.

It is ONLY necessary for those:
1) to whom the Gospel was proclaimed AND
2) who fully understood it AND
3) who were physically able to be baptized.

And that doesn't cover ALL people, does it?

THAT was my point.

And THAT was the point taught to me by my Great Uncle back East (he's a Bishop there).

He baptized me, gave me my first communion, heard my first confession and also confirmed me.

I trust him and the word of God.


edited for politeness.

Sorry it took so long.  I had to perform my husbandly duties after work (chaufer [sp?] for my wife to garage sales, dinner, putting the munchkins to bed, etc.).  I?m back now.  I realized that it will take way too long and WAY too many posts to put on all the quotes from the early Christians regarding Baptism, so I?ll have to give you the links.  Please do look them up:

[url]http://www.bringyou.to/philvaz/articles/num2.htm[/url]
[url]http://www.cin.org/users/jgallegos/borna.htm[/url]
[url]http://www.catholic.net/rcc/Periodicals/Faith/7-8-98/SACRAMENTS3.html[/url]

Here are a couple to start, but by no means the only ones:

[blue]Since man is of a twofold nature, composed of body and soul, the purification also is twofold:  the corporeal for the corporeal and the incorporeal for the incorporeal.  The water cleanses the body and the spirit seals the soul.  Thus, having our heart sprinkled by the Spirit and our body washed with pure water (Heb. 10:22), we may draw near to God.  When you go down into the water, then, regard not simply the water, but look for salvation through the power of the Holy Spirit.  [red]For without both you cannot attain to perfection.[/red] [note:  see second quote below]  It is not I who say this, but the Lord Jesus Christ, who has the power in this matter.  And He says, "Unless a man be born again" - and he adds the words "of water and of the Spirit, - he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. (Jn. 3:5)"  He that is baptized with water, but is not found worthy of the Spirit, does not receive the grace in perfection.  [red]Nor, if a man be virtuous in his deeds, but does not receive the seal by means of the water, shall he enter into the kingdom of heaven.  A bold saying, but not mine; for it is Jesus who has declared it.[/red][/blue]
~St. Cyril of Jerusalem (~ 350 AD)

[blue]Baptism is God's most beautiful and magnificent gift....We call it gift, grace, anointing, enlightenment, garment of immortality, bath of rebirth, seal, and most precious gift. It is called gift because it is conferred on those who bring nothing of their own; grace since it is given even to the guilty; Baptism because sin is buried in the water; anointing for it is priestly and royal as are those who are anointed; enlightenment because it radiates light; clothing since it veils our shame; bath because it washes; and seal as it is our guard and the sign of God's Lordship.[/blue]
~St. Gregory of Nazianzen (~330-389 AD)


You mean you ignore/reject Christianity's own history?  How sad.  How do you know your interpretation of Scripture is correct without looking at how the early Christians interpreted them?  What is your authority for interpreting Sacred Scripture?

BTW, it?s 73, not 66.  You're using the abridged version (but that, too, is food for another thread).

I missed that "all" in your statement.  Thanks for pointing it out to me. (note to self: don't miss words in sentences)

Also, that is what I meant by saying that Baptism is a normative necessity (as opposed to an absolute necessity), but a necessity nonetheless.

The confusion came in that many folks on here don't view Baptism as a sacrament conveying God's grace on us; they view it as just a public proclamation, and nothing more, thus not necessary for [i]anyone[/i].  I mistakenly thought you were espousing this view.  Thanks for correcting my misunderstanding.  It's good to know there are other Catholics on here who properly understand the Faith.  


SHHHH!  I'm not sure it's wise to say you're related to a bishop these days [;)].  Which one, BTW?

[edited for the #*%&$ quotes!  I'll get it right eventually]

No harm, no foul.

I know. I was confused since it seemed you were refuting what I said, but then turning around and supporting it with the Catechism.


Yeah, sometimes nonCatholics really rail against the teachings of the Church for it's "harshness" or "strictness", but when they begin to learn more about Church doctrines they are often suprised that the Church isn't filled with a bunch of horrible fearmongering about babies and aborigines going to eternal damnation or purgatory or "limbo".  


Isn't that what Peter was thinking just before the cock crowed thrice?[;)]

"All [of us] have sinned and fall short of the Glory of God"
That pretty much sums it up.  I would venture a guess that James 3:5-12 probably snares a vast majority of us (me included).

I also think it would be rather prideful for anyone to say "I do just fine, thanks."

I Corinthians 1 - Paul baptized no one.

John 4: 1-2 -  Jesus Christ Himself baptized no one.


With baptism being necessary for salvation, some rather important people treated it pretty casually.

Baptism/shmaptism,[rolleyes]Bible/Liable[rolleyes]God bless you,I'll say a prayer for the answer and to show me the light[rolleyes]

Post from garandman -

Can you think of a reason that Jesus may not have baptized anyone, hmmmm, [b]garandman[/b].

Paul tells us why he's glad that he didn't baptize anyone at a particular location, do you know why?

[b]Romans 6:3[/b]

Know ye not, that so many of [b]us[/b] as were [b]baptized[/b] into Jesus Christ were [b]baptized[/b] into his death?

[b]garandman[/b], are you baptized into His death? If you are, then why did you do it and teach others that it is unnecessary? If you are not, why not? Do you not keep ALL of His commandments?

[b]1 Corinthians 1:13[/b]

Is Christ divided? was Paul crucified for you? or were ye [b]baptized[/b] in the name of Paul?

Were [u]you[/u] baptized in the name of Christ, as Paul was?  Why or why not?

[b]1 Corinthians 1:14[/b]

I thank God that I [b]baptized[/b] none of you, but Crispus and Gaius;

Why do you think Paul says that? Give it your best shot!

[b]1 Corinthians 1:15[/b]

Lest any should say that I had [b]baptized[/b] in mine own name.

Whoops, this may be a clue!

[b]1 Corinthians 1:16[/b]

And I [b]baptized[/b] also the household of Stephanas: besides, I know not whether I [b]baptized[/b] any other.

Heh-heh, probably so many he forgot!

[b]1 Corinthians 12:13[/b]

For by one Spirit are we all [b]baptized[/b] into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.

Well, all except [b]garandman[/b] and those folks who follow after his teachings on baptism.

[b]Galatians 3:27[/b]

For as many of you as have been [b]baptized[/b] into Christ have put on Christ.

Have you been 'baptized into Christ? If yes, then why teach others differently? If not, then why not listen to Paul, to Jesus, to the church fathers?

So, not only did Christ specifically command the baptism of believing adults as a precondition to receiving the blessings of membership in His Body, but He Himself underwent the same initiation rite, and made it His last instruction to His church!

Sounds as if it's a mighty important step in becoming a member of His church....

Eric The(WhyDebateSuchAnObviousPoint?)Hun[>]:)]

Here's a link that I stumbled upon that gives a very good defense of the affirmative side of the question BAPTISM NECESSARY FOR SALVATION?

[url]http://www.revelations.org.za/Bap.htm[/url]

I didn't have a chance to look through it at all, but it appears to be a Southern Baptist, rather than a church of Christ website.

So, I'll read the rest later, but the part on the absolute NECESSITY of water baptism of adult believers is well thought out and I commend it to you.

Eric The(SeriousSubjectIndeed!)Hun[>]:)]

From the site:

[b]Should Baptism be administered by Sprinkling or by Immersion?[/b]

Many spiritual leaders immerse their fingers in the water and then sprinkle the member.  We have clearly seen that an infant cannot be baptised.  Secondly, we will prove that baptism should be administered by immersion and not by sprinkling.

The practice of sprinkling came into force centuries after the New Messianic Congregation of Messiah was established.  Nowhere in the Bible is this injunction to be found.  Most historians agree that Baptism in the first 2 centuries after Messiah, was performed by immersion. Testifying to this, are the many baptismal fonts to be viewed at the ruins of ancient churches in Europe and the Middle East.

An investigation of the Greek text of the New Testament sheds much light on the subject.  The Greek word "Baptizo" means to immerse or to dip.   "Rhantizo" means to sprinkle. The New Testament Scriptures use the word ‘Baptizo’ when referring to Baptism,  The word that we use in English,  namely, ‘baptise’,  is directly translated from the Greek word ‘Baptizo’.  The mandate given to His disciples by the Messiah in Matt. 28:19 therefore, is to go and ‘immerse’ (baptise) all the nations.   There should also be no doubts as to whether the Messiah Himself was immersed or sprinkled by John the Baptist.

In order to further confirm the correct procedure,  let us investigate the different instances of Baptism which is recorded in the New Testament to judge for ourselves with an open mind, whether sprinkling or immersion was the practice in the first few centuries after Messiah.

Acts 8:36 -39  The baptism of the eunuch by Philip
". . . as they went along . . . they came to some water, and the eunuch said,  'See, here is water. What is to prevent me being baptised?' . . . and they both went down into the water . .. and he baptised him.  And when they came up out of the water, ... "

Undeniably, this recorded instance of baptism suggests nothing else but immersion.  It must be remembered that the eunuch, being a rich man and also a man of great authority, would not be traveling, alone in the Gaza desert, nor would he be traveling without drinking water. If sprinkling was the norm,  why would the eunuch point out a place of  'some water' and enter into the water with Philip if it was not to be immersed?

Another account of  baptism is the very example of the Redeemer Himself, when He came to John the Baptist to be baptised :

Matt. 3:13-16
"John tried to dissuade Him,  saying, 'I need to be baptised by You, and yet You come to me?"'

Note well, Messiah's confirmation:  ". . . Let it be so now, for thus it is fitting for us to fulfill all righteousness. Then he (John) consented.  And when He (Messiah) was baptised, He came up from the water. .. "

What can be more clear?  This was the Creator Himself showing us the Way.  He was baptised in the river Jordan ant not with a few drops of the river Jordan.   Messiah said to Thomas,  one of His apostles, "I am the Way" (John I4:6).   And to the rich man:  “Come, follow Me"  (Matt  19:21).  Again, to all of us, "He who does not ... follow Me,  is not worthy of Me,"  (Matt.10: 38).   Do you want to be worthy of Him?  Then simply follow Him through the Baptismal water.

- continued -

Where did John baptise? How did he baptise believers?

Man. 314-6
"Now John wore a garment of camel's hair, and a leather girdle around his waist; and his food was locusts and wild honey. Then Jerusalem and all Judea and the whole Jordan district made their way to him,  and as they were baptised by him in the river Jordan,   they confessed their sins".

The only people who would not allow themselves to be baptised,  were the Pharisees and the lawyers. Luke could say of them:

Luke 7:29, 30
"All the people who heard him and the tax collectors too, acknowledged God’s Plan by accepting baptism from John;  but, by refusing baptism from him,  the Pharisees and lawyers had thwarted what God had in mind for them,”

Did you get that? These are awesome words with terrible implications!  They rejected Divine  council by not being baptised! Will you follow the modern Pharisees who deny that Baptism by immersion is a part of God’s Salvation Plan or follow the example of our Saviour and Redeemer by following Him through the waters of Baptism?

We have yet another clear account in the Bible,   of baptism by immersion in water:

John 3 : 23
"At the same time John was baptising at Aenon near to Salim, where there was plenty of water,  and people were going there to be baptised.”

Some religious teachers and leaders declare that Baptism is not essential for Salvation.  Baptism on its own, surely cannot save you. The Rebirth by the Spirit should precede the act of Baptism, as explained earlier.  Messiah, Who is the King of Heaven and will be the Coming Judge of mankind in the Great Judgment Day,  unequivocally specified  "I tell you most solemnly, unless a person is born through Water and the Spirit,  he cannot enter the Kingdom. " (John 3 : 5).

This is affirmed by the Apostle Peter in 1 Peter 3: 20, 21
"Now it was long ago, when Noah was still building that Ark which saved only ... eight people ‘by water’, and when God was still waiting patiently, that these spirits refused to believe.  That water is a type of the Baptism which saves you now and which is not the washing off of physical dirt, but a pledge made to God from a good conscience,  through the resurrection of Messiah”.

The Bible, therefore, is very clear and emphatic that immersion is the only means by which a person may be baptised.

I will try to add some help to this discussion.

Many scriptural texts present the only condition for salvation as being belief (synonyms: trust and faith).  In fact, there are more than 150 New Testament passages where salvation is conditioned upon believing alone.  If any other requirement is added, it will cause these verses to be incomplete and misleading.  Therefore, all terms that express a condition genuinely necessary for salvation (such as repentance or baptism) must be interpreted as to be compatible with a salvation based upon faith alone.  Terms that cannot be made compatible with faith alone as a condition for salvation are used improperly and dangerously at best and at worst, sheer heresy.

All Protestant theologians began with that basic tenant of the Reformation, sola fide, faith alone.  Here are some of the 150 key texts where the Bible declares faith alone brings salvation.
John 3:16
16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
John 3:18
18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
John 5:24
24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.
John 6:40
40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.
John 6:47
47 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life.
John 11:25-26
25 Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live: 26 And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?
John 20:30-31
30 And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book: 31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.
Acts 13:39
39 And by him all that believe are justified from all things, from which ye could not be justified by the law of Moses.
Acts 16:30-31
30 And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved? 31 And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.
Romans 3:22
22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:
Romans 3:25
25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;
Romans 3:28
28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.
Romans 3:30
30 Seeing it is one God, which shall justify the circumcision by faith, and uncircumcision through faith.
Romans 4:5
5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

CONTINUED

Romans 5:1
1 Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:
Romans 10:11
11 For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.
Romans 10:17
17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
Galatians 2:16
16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.
Galatians 3:6-7
6 Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness. 7 Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham.
Galatians 3:11
11 But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith.
Galatians 3:22
22 But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.
Galatians 3:24
24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
Galatians 3:26
26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.
Ephesians 2:8-9
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

So the question is, what is “faith”  The Hebrew and Greek words for faith compliment each other perfectly.  The picture is one of absolute trust, reliance, and commitment of one’s soul’s eternal destiny to who Christ is and what He accomplished on the cross.  Saving faith is knowing the facts of who He is and what He did.  It is believing that these facts are not only true but also desirable, relevant, and personally needed.  And then with all that being true, one must of the will make a decision to commits the souls eternal destiny to Christ and the cross, i.e., by an act of the will a person chooses to place his confidence in the Lord Jesus Christ and the finished work on the cross.

Having said ALL this, I was baptized as a public illustration of the inward reality when I was 13 years old.  I trusted Christ as savior when I was ten, and had I died before my baptism, I know beyond a shadow of a doubt, based upon scripture, that I would be in heaven right now.  Not because I am a righteous person, but because my righteousness comes from Christ.  Baptism didn’t save me any more then standing in a garage makes me a car.  Its Christ and Christ alone.

Just make sure you're buried with a couple of cans of Guinness.  St. Peter loves Guinness, and can be tempted to let you in regarless of what you've done.

Amen, Brother patsue.
I read the whole thread.
Your comment sums it up very well.

I appreciate everyone's views on this subject.
Grace.  Faith.  
Welcome Home.

[b]Wrong.[/b]  
1 Corinthians1:14  [blue]I am thankful that I baptized non of you [b]except Crispus and Gaius[/b].[/blue]
He baptized at least two people.

1 Corinthians 1:16  [blue][b]I did baptize also the household of Stephanas.[/b]  Beyond that, I do not know whether I baptized any one else.[/blue]
Hmm.. baptized a few more people.

Now the why.  Did they treat it casually, or were they teaching something important?

The reason Christ refrained from baptizing others was to establish the Apostles in their role as bishops, teaching them through practice how it was to be done.  Christ's whole mission on this earth would depend on these twelve doing all and exactly what Jesus had taught them, with no written instructions and no one to help them but the Holy Spirit.

Paul had much the same reason.  He wanted the local presbyter (Apollos) to do the baptizing, since Apollos was the one who would be there to minister to the people:
1 Cor. 3:6  [blue]I planted [/blue][proclamed the kerygma], [blue]Apollos watered[/blue] [baptized], [blue]but God gave the growth[/blue] [His grace making us a new creation, born again]"

What can be more clear? This was the Creator Himself showing us the Way. He was baptised in the river Jordan and not with a few drops of the river Jordan. Messiah said to Thomas, one of His apostles, "I am the Way" (John I4:6). And to the rich man: “Come, follow Me" (Matt 19:21). Again, to all of us, [b]"He who does not ... follow Me, is not worthy of Me,"[/b] (Matt.10: 38). Do you want to be worthy of Him? Then simply follow Him through the Baptismal water.

Eric The(SimplyPut)Hun[>]:)]