Quick! Refresh my memory, someone.

From what verse do the Southern Baptists get the idea that 'once saved, always saved'?

I keep forgetting that one.

Not that I believe it, for it's just a modern version of the old problem with Phariseeism.

'We are children of Abraham, we will be saved!'

Becomes:

'We have been baptized, or claimed Jesus as our personal Saviour, we will be saved!'

Eric The(Hardshell)Hun[>]:)]

Oh come on Eric.  The Triune Formula was new with Jesus.  You know that.  John was not on some inside track.  The Christian Triune Baptism began with Jesus institution long after John.  The Jewish baptism of repentance was not in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Ghost.  To them, such would be blasphemous.

I think you're pulling stuff out of the nether regions now.


Scott

One word....Trinity

John would have had to say "Do you accept yourself as Lord and Savior? (Clearly He did) I baptize you in the name of You, You, and You"....  :)

I wouldn't know, because I'm not a Baptist of any flavor.  I do believe you can turn away from your salvation.  I also believe (as stated in hte Bible) that my Faith is God's work, and He keeps it alive and well through His Word and Sacraments.  I rely on His promise to bring me to Heaven because of the Faith He has given me.

You can live in fear and wonder whether or not you will burn in hell, but for me, Jesus said "It Is Finished."  I believe Him, and I rely solely on Him.

And talk about phariseeism!  You've got it down buddy.

That's the end of my contribution to the thread.
Scott

OK, believe what you want about which way one should be baptized... But don't try to say you have to be baptized in order to be saved.

John Calvin was an interesting fellow wasn't he?

I'll get back to you when I wake up unless someone else wants to type it all out..I don't have a Bible program on my computer....

I didn't think it was based on only one scripture. I thought it was based on several ideas and scriptures. Although this is a candidate for a new topic entirely, I just wanted to also say that I don't believe once saved, always saved.

From memory of my youth... the once saved, always saved folks base their beliefs on the following:

Salvation is believing in Jesus Christ.
We are not saved by works.
Salvation is a free gift and a new birth.
Once born again, nothing can separate us from God.

They use the following scriptures to support that theory.

"He that believith on the Son hath everlasting life:. . ." John 3:36

"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believith in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." John 3:16

"Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us,. . ." Titus 3:5

"For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: not of works, lest any man should boast." Ephesians 2:8,9

". . . the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord." Romans 6:23

". . .by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life." Romans 5:18

"(For he saith, I have heard thee in a time accepted, and in the day of salvation have I succoured thee: behold, now is the accepted time; behold, now is the day of salvation.)" 2 Corinthians 6:2

"Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God." John 3:3

"Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever." 1 Peter 1:23

"Beloved, now are we the sons of God, . . ." 1 John 3:2

"For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father." Romans 8:15

"For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord." Romans 8:38

"My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand." John 10:29

". . .for he hath said, I will never leave thee, nor forsake thee." Hebrews 13:5

". . . and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen." Matthew 28:20

"These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life,. . ." 1 John 5:13

"Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life,. . ." John 5:24

". . . him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out." John 6:37

"And ye are complete in Him, which is the head of all principality and power:" Colossians 2:10

"By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all. . . For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified." Hebrews 10:10,14

"Jude, the servant of Jesus Christ, and brother of James, to them that are sanctified by God the Father, and preserved in Jesus Christ, and called:" Jude 1

"And the Lord. . . will preserve me unto his heavenly kingdom:. . ." 2 Timothy 4:18

"Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time." 1 Peter 1:5

"Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy," Jude 24

"Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him,. . ." Hebrews 7:25

"And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption." Ephesians 4:30

". . .after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise," Ephesians 1:13

"For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ. Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble; Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is. If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved yet so as by fire." 1 Corinthians 3:11-15

"For we are members of his body, of his flesh, and of his bones." Ephesians 5:30

"Now ye are the body of Christ, and members in particular." 1 Corinthians 12:18

"If we believe not, yet he abideth faithful: he cannot deny himself." 2 Timothy 2:13

1 Corinthians 5 describes a sin in the church. And even though Paul commands ". . . To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh" — Paul still speaks of that person being saved — ". . .that the spirit may be saved. . ."

"It is reported commonly that there is fornication among you, and such fornication as is not so much as named among the Gentiles, that one should have his father's wife. . .To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus." 1 Corinthians 5:1,5

"Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven;. . ." Matthew 7:21

"For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved." Romans 10:13

When baptism and salvation are mentioned in the same passage, salvation is always mentioned after baptism.

Baptized-Saved
Mk. 16.16
"He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved."

Baptized-Remission of Sins
Acts 2.38
"Repent and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins"

Baptized-Wash Away Sins
Acts 22.16
"Arise and be baptized and wash away thy sins."

Baptized-Sins
1Pet 3.21
"Baptism doth also now save us"

Not clear?

Dram here, weighing in.....

BenDover... why do you troll a fight you dont even have a dog in?

Anywho....
The act of sprinkling is tied inextricably with infant baptism and the falling away from the Word which Jesus gave us as a guide for worshipping him.

Baptism is indivisible from salvation, as is faith from salvation. You MUST have both to attain the Kingdom. Faith is first, baptism without faith is empty... and so is faith without baptsim.

Romans 6:4 is so simple, why do some people strain at a gnat and swallow the camel?
"We were buried therefore with him by baptism into death, so that as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, we too might walk in newness of life"
Rom 6:5 "For if we have been united with him in a death like his , we shall certainly be united with him in a resurrection like his."

Baptism is a burial....... cannot be buried in the rain, nor can you be buried in a deluge of water. Christs chosen method of joining with him in the spiritual likeness of his death and rebirth is baptism. Buried in a watery grave and rising into the newness of a life in Christ. This is the rebirth, the second birth that Nicodemus did not understand and some baptists refer to as all the water you needed was in the amniotic fluid of your birth sack. Christ MANDATES this burial if you are to receive his gift of eternal life.

When you look at Philip and the Eunuch, how is it possible to misconstrue the meaning of Acts 8:38 where "they went down both into the water".
He was the cheif Eunuch of all Ethiopia, if he needed to be poured or sprinkled his slave/servant would have fetched it for him, and that right speedily. NO, they both went down into the water to fulfill the commands of Christ to those who would obey him and be buried into the likeness of His death.

Death... burial....resurrection.

Buried in a watery grave like Christ was in his tomb, your old life dying and passing away, and your spiritual rebirth (born again) being accomplished.

If you are poured or sprinkled, you are not scripturally baptised. Dont argue with me, I did not and will not claim to have written this book, this Holy Bible. Argue with the Holy Ghost that had men as earthly instrumentalities to write it. But, you shall do so at your eternal peril. Personally I wont take the chance and dice with my eternal life, it is too precious to me.

Doctrines of man are just that, and worth just as much as a 3 dollar bill. Read the Book with an open and honest mind and drop the doctrines of man, i.e. anything that is not written in the New Testament is NOT pertaining to your salvation.

And to those who speak of binding things on man, for shame... Christ ASKS us to do His will, if we WOULD receive his gift. If you fellas dont want the gift, dont do his will...... not my will, but His be done. Scripture is crystalline clear... man has muddied the water with someones help.

Dram out

Thank you [b]Brother Dramborleg![/b]

As usual, you are correct, Sir!

Eric The(Faithful)Hun[>]:)]

Thats it...

I am canceling the comedy channel on my cable...

After reading this thread ....it just does not make sense to pay for laughs.

I say drown 'em.

Hold their head under water until the Almighty forces them to the top.  If they drown then it is His will.

TRG

Ps.  It worked for the Witch trials, right?  If they didn't burn, they were not a Witch.

Absolutely Brother Eric the Hun.

Christs will, and what he asks for is SO SIMPLE.

This is a totally non scriptural thing, but one which is illustrative of the simplicity of Christ Jesus and the simplicity of what he asked for and what the the world has gilded and overlayed and confused his Word with.

Bear with me if you dont like this example, as it is pulled from popular culture.

In Indiana Jones, the one with his father, he is in the chamber of the so called holy grail and the walls are covered in highly ornate golden and bejewelled chalices. Which to choose? Indeed, which to choose? Time is running out, and the one cup which stands out is the rough looking simple and plain cup of a carpenter.........

No jewels, no gold.... no filigree.... a wooden cup.

Christs will is as simple as that scene, and as unadorned. No pomp, no circumstance.... no sturm und drang. No croziers or cassocks or golden vessels or braziers of incense to prick the vanity of fallen man and draw his eye and soothe his soul with pagan splendor.

Such is the Word of Christ Jesus, simple and unadorned with unsolveable mystery or mystical phantasm.

Take this example as you will.

Dram out

But then why isn't each time salvation is mentioned, baptism included?

As I quoted above, John 3:16 has no mention of it. Jesus himself said that passage.

What about Romans 10:9?

Steenky,

Well, it is rather simple yet again. Absolutely you will be saved because you FIRST confess with your mouth that Jesus is the Christ, this is testifying of your faith that Jesus died for you and your sins. SECOND then you obey what Jesus asked for, and go get baptized!

Faith is first, first, first and first. And firstest. How bout that. Numero uno, start here... proceed from THIS point. NO Questions!

But if you DO believe, you WILL do what Christ ASKS you to do. And if you dont.......? What then? Throw out the book of Acts and Romans ? Like a baptist preacher told me to? He said if that means what it says...... you might as well throw it out. Now, he was hot under the collar as the Word was workin' on him at the time, so he can be forgiven for his heat, but surely....

Can you not understand the great commission? Or more importantly and finally this scripture....... which nails the coffin shut on faith alone by the words of Christ Jesus ...

Mt 7:21-23
"Not every one who says to me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. On that day many will say to me, Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy  in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name? And then will I declare to them, I never knew you, depart from me, you evildoers.

Now... those who say Lord, Lord... confess His Name with their mouth. Correct? Yes? But he says that he will tell them he never knew them. So DONT tell me that confessing with your tongue will get you in the door. Only those that do His Fathers will....... and the Son is the Father with us, Emmanuelle. "This is my son in whom I am well pleased, hear ye him"

Mk 16 15-16 "Go into all the world and preach the gospel to every creature. He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned"

Go tell Jesus that baptism is not necessary when you see him. When you bend your knee just as I shall on the final awful day. Even though you have his Word in your hand. Tell him he must have been mistaken. Take the chance. Roll the dice. But not me sir, I will take the Lord at HIS WORD. Not mine, and not yours either. Nor anyone else that breathes this worlds air.
"When that which is perfect is come, that which is in part shall be done away" I dont need someone to prophesy to me or have direct operation of the holy ghost to know the truth, that was done away with when we had the full Word available. As it is today, in the Bible.

Faith alone wont save. If you believe you will follow His Will and do as he ASKS. If you are concerned. If.

Have a pleasant evening, it is nice to get a workout of spiritual fitness, and exercise my powers of ready recollection of the scripture.

Most humbly submitted, your servant: Dram.......

Ok, let's take this from a different approach.

I'm going to make some similar statements to what you and I are quoting of the Bible in order to make a point.

Whoever gets in the vehicle, will be driven to the store. -John 3:16

He that goeth into the vehicle, and rolls down the window shall be driven to the store. He that doesn't get in the vehicle shall stay here. -Mark 16:15-16

Ok, take these two statements (as that's the two statements brought up here about the Bible). If I get in the car and roll down the window, I'll be driven to the store.

But if I get in the car, but don't roll down the window... Nobody says I'm not going to the store. Perhaps I'll just be hot and sweaty cause the air conditioner doesn't work.

It does, however, specifically say that if I don't get in the car I'm not going to the store.



It doesn't say "Not everyone who believes and confesses with their mouth that Jesus is Lord shall enter into the kingdom of heaven". You can sit around saying "Lord, Lord" all you want, that's not necessarily following what he said in John 3:16.

And that portion of scripture comes directly after this:


Put those together and you have a more likely scenario for what that means.

I see several references stating that one should be baptized, and that one should confess/believe... There are also scriptures stating that if you DON'T confess/believe that you won't be saved... but I couldn't find ONE that said if you aren't baptized, that you won't be saved.

Yes, I think one should be baptized if they are a Christian... And yes, I have been. But nowhere does the Bible state that you're not saved if you aren't baptized.

Ahhh... don't you just love the smell of Christian love on the beach in the morning?

You profess that you are agnostic and one of two things happen like clockwork... you and the entire volume of your religious and doctrinal knowledge (of MANY faiths, not just one or two) are completely disregarded and/or discredited.

OR, you are immediately subjected to a concentrated, biased indoctrination of why and how one's particular brand of religion is the only and best to the discredit of any other.

Anyone care to speculate WHY I would be agnostic? To quote the great Howard Stern when asked what good religion had done for him in his life, "Nothing! It's awful!"

It's an excuse for otherwise reasonably intelligent, civilized men to reduce themselves to the intellectual eqivilent of a preschooler.

And I diasagree....[:D]

God, I've been waiting a month to officially use my new sig line.

And I happen to prefer the fire hose method of brainwashi...I mean baptism. Hose the evil out with max pressure.

Post from steenkybastage -

Because the speaker is sometimes talking to different audiences for different reasons.

But think about this:

[b]Each time when salvation is mentioned, why is it that repentance isn't included?[/b]

And no one thinks, I hope, that [b]repentance[/b] isn't absolutely necessary for salvation.

Right?

Eric The(Right?SomeoneAnswer)Hun[>]:)]

No, I don't believe one must do anything other than what I quoted above... straight from the Bible in order to be saved. This is my perspective after 20+ years of reading the Bible...



Yes, I think you should confess (not to a priest... but that's my opinion, as I see nowhere in the Bible it says I should) your sins. However, I believe you start with a clean slate upon your salvation. I don't see someone who isn't saved benefiting from confessing his sins... and there's no way someone who was saved at the age of 30 is going to remember every little thing.



The way I read it... the Bible says you must confess w/ your mouth and believe w/ your heart in order to be saved. It specifically says if you don't, that you won't be saved. Yes, when you're saved, there are plenty of things you should continue doing according to the Bible, but the determining factor lies with John 3:16.

What if someone on their lunch break was reading a piece of literature on salvation, or the Bible for the first time and decided they wanted to be saved. They said a quick prayer, and believed... then an earthquake knocked the building down and crushed them, killing them not 2 minutes later.

You think because they were never baptized that they weren't saved?

Or obviously... they must not be saved since they didn't confess their sins.

What if they did have enough time and got baptized, and confessed their sins... but forgot about one time when they were 10 years old and stole a candybar from the 7-11...?

Post from steenkybastage -

I'd say they had the scriptures, the prophets, all of the teachings of Christ, for at least 2,000 years!

What kept them from believing, repenting, confessing, and being baptized until the last 2 minutes of their life?

Close, but no cigar! [:D]

Everyone wants to be the Penitent Thief on the Cross with Jesus.

But there was only one.

Wouldn't it be easier to just do as He said?

Eric The(Right?)Hun[>]:)]

You know, I always like reading these religious threads where ETH and BD get involved;  its like sunday school, but on a grown-up level, with debates instead of just stories, and guns, instead of "crafts".  [:D]

I read my trusty old King James version, in English, but am not all that active since I'm off in school.  However, I can always count on you two to bring up new things for me to think about.

Thanks guys!

FOTBR

I hate to disagree with you here Hun, but if this is their first exposure to christianity (other than, say, watching all the muslims shout about how bad christianity is), how is it their fault that they waited?

I can think of a couple of instances where similar situations might occur:  
1) China-with a state-controlled media, and very harsh penalties for any "religious" activites, has been repressed for decades, if one of these chinese children moves to a country where christianity is tolerated, even embraced, and is exposed to the Truth, makes the above decision, and is killed shortly thereafter for whatever reason.  
2) China- another is exposed to christianity for the first time attending an underground christian meeting, and makes the decision to follow the Truth;  said meeting is raided and our newly converted is killed in the ensuing massacre.

I say children, I mean one of God's children, not necessarily a little kid.

Are these people to be faulted for waiting to convert?  I understand and agree that if one has been exposed, but rejected the Truth, then, while on death row, decides to convert 2 minutes before his lethal injection, then yes, he is to be faulted for his decisions;  but you cannot fault one for an honest case of ignorance in this matter can you?  (ok, I'm sure you can, but can that position be clearly explained?)

FOTBR

Eric,

It seems to me that you want to be one of the workers who were hired in the morning or perhaps the son who stayed home. I'm sorry, but that's not how God works. He is NOT just, He is MERCIFUL.

Our church sponsors many missionaries. The most recent trip our Pastor took was to Zambia, where they have a (official) 45% HIV positive rate (the medical experts suggest closer to 75%). The average life expectancy there is less than 35 years.

Virtually all of the country, aside from some of the larger cities have never even HEARD of the Bible. Take my example and put it in that setting. (and this is far from the only place in the world with this type of situation)

And sorry, but I still see nowhere in the Bible that says otherwise... Only that if you don't believe/confess Jesus as Lord, that you won't be saved.

I sure hope those of you who think that all these things are necessary before salvation is attained believe in and have been baptized with the Holy Ghost. After all... there are several references to "(John) baptize with water, but he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost."

And don't forget speaking in tongues, that's in Acts... You can't just throw that out (to quote someone earlier).

Post from legrue -

No Sir! I've been the Prodigal Son, already. I was never the son who stayed home.

And many there are who have been toiling in the Father's vineyard for a far longer period than I have.

If that's the extent of your spiritual insight into my personal walk with [b]Jesus[/b], then, Son, you need better spiritual glasses!

Sorry, that's not quite how the Lord works, either.

He is, of course, merciful to the extreme.

But before that, He is Holy. And His Holiness is so far beyond our poor abilities to fully comprehend, that we must just accept it for what it is.

As [b]Jesus[/b] Himself said:

[b]John 5[/b]

29   [red][b]And shall come forth; [u]they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life[/u]; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.[/b][/red]

30   [red][b][u]I can of mine own self do nothing[/u]: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me.[/b][/red]

Hmmm, 'they that have done good'? Sounds like a final exam question to me!

Eric The(StrivingToDoGood)Hun[>]:)]

Well Steenky,

Baptism is given as the SPECIFIC act of rebirth, your spiritual regeneration. Nowhere else can you achieve this, save with Christs plan, that of baptism. Burial with him into the likeness of his death.

So where is your scriptural rebirth? Christ adds the holy ghost at your baptism in water. That is Christs alone, when you physically do what he asks you to, you fulfill his will and he adds the Holy Ghost when you are baptized in his name. Johns baptism was to prepare people for the baptism of Jesus which contains the Holy Ghost. They are inseperable.

Wow, its amazing that you would fail to want to do as Christ PLAINLY asks you to do, if you SAY you love the Lord.

Steenky, read again what I wrote previously:
Romans 6:4 is so simple, why do some people strain at a gnat and swallow the camel?
"We were buried therefore with him by baptism into death, so that as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, we too might walk in newness of life"
Rom 6:5 "For if we have been united with him in a death like his , we shall certainly be united with him in a resurrection like his."

Christ is speaking to ALL WHO WOULD FOLLOW HIM, that is me as well as you if you would do his will. Below is the great commission.... please go tell Christ your analogy about cars and rolling down windows. Hopefully he finds it enlightening, and will say he will rescind the great commission command for you and those who follow your doctrine. Nope, dont worry, Steenky cleared it up for me fellas..... whooo.... boy God sure confused me for a minute when He gave Me these words to speak and the Holy Spirit was wondering too.

Mk 16 15-16 "Go into all the world and preach the gospel to every creature. He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned"

Yep, dont NEED baptism. Christ was addled at the time, as he had to leave real soon and was trying to get in a last few licks before he took off for home. Yessir. Yup.

Oh wait. No. He is the Son of God. God with Us. God incarnate. Whoops, that means he knew what he wanted and clearly stated it. If he did not want baptism, he would not have included it. He supplied examples of what baptism does for us and why.

Why do you kick against the goads Steenky?

You do not defend against me, who am nothing, but against He who wrote the Book. You seek to plow the sea. Why?

Dram?

Wow.  There you have it.  The religion of Works.

Scott

That's all fine and well, except there are specific scriptures which involve baptism / Holy Ghost without reference to water.... as in Baptism of Spirit.

Then again, I'm just an ignorant troll, wolf, heretic, false prophet (all coming from Christians who called me these names) who must not not have ANY tangible thoughts in my head.

Good job marketing for the Lord today!

Post from BenDover -

Now, [b]BenDover[/b], please don't be so hard on yourself.

I'm certain that you will shine brightly on that thread on 'Green Monkey Piss', whenever it may appear in the GDF.

Sorry, but if the Lord wanted numbers He would not have given us the Ten Commandments as the minimum prerequisites for eternal life.

Eric The(JustTheWayItIs)Hun[>]:)]

Ben,

You are trolling this thread. If you do not love the Lord, and you are not seeking Him, then you are contributing nothing to this debate save discord. Although you likely dont believe in him, you are doing the evil ones work and will. But to you that is all fluff and blather so plz ignore it.

I am not your judge sir, you bring judgement upon yourself by your conduct and actions.

Tell me where I said anything about you being anything other than a troll on this thread. You wont and cant find it Ben. You are not my concern, only those seeking the Lords face. I leave hardcases like you up to the Lord himself.

Snicker, hee, religion of works? When I am doing what Christ tells me to do in order to be saved... from his own lips... are you sure? James 2:17 "So faith by itself, if it has no works, is dead."

Let me dispell any delusions here, you cannot EARN heaven. You are saved by your faith thru the Grace of Jesus Christ and instead of stopping and saying "all done we are good to go" and eliminating what Christ included as necessary and essential... we continue on and become baptized into the likeness of his death to rise in the newness of life. To be born again.

We have water baptism that is our part of doing his will, and when we do as he asks, Christ does his part with baptism of the holy spirit. The water and the spirit are inseperable parts of baptism. Only willful disregard of Christs Words is possible to misunderstand this.

Faith
Repentance
Baptism

Faith faith faith, I will sing its praises daily.... but do NOT STOP there. Do as he asks and commands his disciples to do.

What is so hard?

Dram (amazed at faith alone)

And again, I say that because I am agnostic doesn't mean that I am disinterested (ie according to you, trolling). Now you have further imposed the rule that in order for any of my scriptural study to have any relevance in the context of this conversation I have to "love the Lord" (ie. believe things exactly like you do). IMHO, it's hard to "love" something that is without understanding. I require a connection and understanding in order to "love", of which I have neither with the Christian God or Jesus, due in part to the flagrant arrogance and zealotry as demonstrated here by you and your kind of Christian. If Jesus teaches a message of love and encourages Christians to spread the word, why then do most Christians such as yourselves demonstrate such arrogance? If there is any heracy, it's demonstrated by the blatant hipocracy by the so-called faithful in this thread. At least I have the balls to say I am a fence sitter instead of professing my faith and then publically demonstrating otherwise.

It's no wonder so many people are turned off of fundamentalism.


Oh... by the way... we must return to the concept of the thief on the cross who was with Jesus that day in paradise, but failed to have any opportunity to perform any "works" OR be baptised in water.

Again, your doctrine shows a blatant logical conflict.

As far as I am concerned, Jesus has NOT mandated water baptism, only baptism of the holy spirit. IMHO, that being the case, anyone who would pursue the concepts of water baptism as essential to their salvation outside of the clear admonishments of Christ, has ultimately followed a fleshly tradition and bowed to a God other than the Father in heaven.

I'd rather sit right here on the fence with a clean heart and conscience before God, than jump off on the next Johnny Come Lately doctrinal bandwagon, only to later realize I was following a bunch of human traditions (false prophets). That would be doing Satan's work. You suggest that I am doing Satan's work, I suggest that I am "trying the spirits" and so far the spirits come up short.

I thought about chiming into this discussion when it was still on page one but waited to see where we went. If this was a apologetics discussion forum I could see the point of dragging this out, but here? I like to kick the dead horse into submission too, but eventually it gets stinky.

However, I believe:

Saved by grace alone,
through faith alone,
in Christ alone.


All that is necessary for our salvation is Faith in Christ. All the works come about because of our love of Christ and the change in the spiritual condition of our heart and subsequent obedience to His word and the Holy Spirit, not for "work credit".
And because of that faith in Christ alone I am secure in my Salvation and ultimate destination, and there is nothing that can separate me from God.

Anything that says you must do something other than believe puts faith in that condition and not in Christ.

We can all come up with scripture to support our beliefs, this is just where I stand and intend to stay.




btw, imho,
we can argue some of these issues from now til Christ comes, and then we'll know for sure who's right. We must ask ourselves what gain does it give the Kingdom?
The crusades ended a couple of years ago.

What translation do some of you read from?



Have we forgotten (Now we're into the Non-ETHRSV)


This dispells the non-merciful idea.



ETH, where in the Bible (specifically the New Testament) do you get this from?



8531sgt, you got it right.

There are MANY things one should do as a Christian, but ONE thing one must do in order to be saved...

Post from BenDover -

[b]BenDover[/b], the Penitent Thief died under the Law, not under the Christian Dispensation.

There was nothing under the Law that required water baptism for anyone to enter into Heaven.

The High Priest and his associates were daily making sacrifices in the Temple for all who had sinned and those sins were just as forgiven, under the Law, as any modern day Christian's sins.

Sorry, again, it isn't 'his' doctrine that [b]Dramborleg[/b] is enunciating, but 'His' doctrine, in which there is no conflict at all.

Thankfully, it matters not what 'concerns' you.

What should be addressed are the clear and unavoidable commandments of [b]Jesus[/b] to His Believers.

There have been many such instances that have been mentioned so far, but the one that should settle the matter for any clear-thinking and honest seeker of the Truth, are the statements made by [b]Jesus[/b] to Nicodemus, one of the members of the Sanhedrin.

To recall the circumstances of this particular conversation, Nicodemus had come to [b]Jesus[/b] at night, presumably in order to conceal the fact that a man of his importance and standing within the Jewish religious community would be seen conversing with the rebellious rabbi from Nazareth!

Prick up your ears and listen:

[b]John 3[/b]

1   There was a man of the Pharisees, named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews:

2   The same came to Jesus by night, and said unto him, Rabbi, we know that thou art a teacher come from God: for no man can do these miracles that thou doest, except God be with him.

3   Jesus answered and said unto him, [red][b]Verily, verily, I say unto thee, [u]Except[/u] a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God[/b][/red].

4   Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?

5   Jesus answered, [red][b]Verily, verily, I say unto thee, [u]Except[/u] a man be born of [u]water[/u] and of the [u]Spirit[/u], he [u]cannot[/u] enter into the kingdom of God[/b][/red].

Hmmmm.

[red][b]'Except a man be born of water....'[/b][/red]

How does a man 'be born of water'? By baptism! Pure and simple! Water baptism is the method by which one is 'born again'! When the believer is baptized he is born of the water and of the Spirit.

Now, for the heathen, trolls, wolves, etc., out there. I have heard this particular verse explained by those who are really not interested in the clear and concise words of [b]Jesus[/b], that the 'born of water' aspect is cleverly taken care of by the amniotic fluid found in the womb of the mother.

Accordingly, these mental pipsqueeks argue that all men are born 'of water' simply by coming into this world through childbirth!

Wow! Surely [b]Jesus[/b] was well versed in the facts of childbirth, seeing as He is the Creator of all things created.

So He should have simply replied to Nicodemus' inquiry with 'Except a man be born...and born of the Spirit, he cannot enter the Kingdom of God'? Does that sound like the Son of God talking? Seriously?

Now note also the use of the double 'Verily' by [b]Jesus[/b], in the cited Scriptures. That is [u]very[/u] significant, for it is the First Century Jewish manner of making an oath!

So, [b]Jesus[/b] was saying to Nicodemus:

'Under an oath for truthfulness...'

He used it on many other occasions to give an added emphasis to the Words of Life.

No, Sir. It is the clear message of the Lord that we are pursuing when it comes to water baptism!

[b]Nothing more, and certainly nothing less![/b]

And, speaking for myself, I have no King but [b]Jesus[/b]!

Eric The(HonestToGod)Hun[>]:)]

Yes indeed,

And if we are steenky and sgt, then we will ignore Christs requests, because, well... you know... we wanna. Which is cool by me, in full knowledge of the truth, your choice to ignore it is your eternal decision. I choose to accept his will. You dont have to.


Ben, if you would like to keep criticising me for that which I have NOT done, please do so. It amuses me. In a sad kind of way. Oh thou hippocrate Dram! Thou art a bad influence and a sorry commentary on Christianity (wring hands here and strike a shakespearian pose, a skull might look cool too) Oh, btw, Christ said he prefers us either hot or cold, not lukewarm and on the fence or he will spit us out of his mouth. Look that one up as you keep the fence rail warm... not hot or cold.

I am trying to contend for the faith, and not one of you posters will explain how Christ HIMSELF did not know what he was talking about when he commissioned baptism.

Answer The Lord please, not me. Use paragraph form, and good spelling, I would think if you are going to contradict God with us, you should be formal at the least.

Keep the fence warm Ben, keep it warm...

Btw, if you "love" the Lord, you will do his will. That is what that statement means sir. You are not. But I am game if you are... Answer the Lords speech in Mark 16: 15-16.

Please.


Dram

[b]The same [u]then[/u], the same [u]now[/u]![/b]

If the First Century Christians did it upon the divine guidance of the Holy Spirit, then the Last Century Christians should likewise do it for the very same reasons!

If someone says that they love the Lord, I believe them.

If someone says that they love the Lord but keepeth not His commandments, I have serious doubts about their statement.

Eric The(HonestToGod)Hun[>]:)]

If you're using that (John 3:5), the greek word NT:5204 (strongs)

hudor (hoo'-dore); genitive case, hudatos (hoo'-dat-os), etc.; from the base of huetos NT:5205; water (as if rainy) literally or figuratively:

NT:5205

huetos (hoo-et-os'); from a primary huo (to rain); rain, especially a shower:

That would contradict your immersing in water theory.

Still doesn't explain John 3:16.

How about this, [b]steenkybastage[/b]?

Steenkybastage's Revised Heretical Version:

John 3:16-18

16 For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.*(even if you don't repent of your sins, even if you don't confess Him before men, in which case I lied)

17 For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved.* (but God will not condemn you even if you don't repent, or even if you fail to confess Him before men)

18 "He who believes in Him is not condemned* (even if you don't repent or confess); but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

See!

It's so very easy to use your 'cut and paste' version of the Gospel!

If you find a verse that's troublesome, you just and the very Words of God are sent to the trashheap on the cutting room floor of SteenkyBastage's Bibles for the Spiritually Deficient.

Who needed repentance and confession anyway!

Those are 'fundamentalist' concepts!

Now, turn with me in your SteenkyBastage Hymnals to Page 205, strike up the band and let's all sing, 'Give Me That [s]Old Time[/s] New Age Religion'!

Final verse: 'It's good enough for Bob Guccione, it's good enough for me!'

Eric The(Wheeee!)Hun[>]:)]

Yes, but I'm not the one trying to change John 3:16. The version you posted is actually correct, there are NO exceptions listed.

Find another verse to try to translate into my version! (hopefully w/ better results)

And I still think the Bible says we should do these things (baptism, repent, etc), just NOT that it's what gets you saved.

There are no exceptions listed in John 3:16... which is Jesus's own words, or in Romans 8:8-10. Both state the believig/confessing, both say in no uncertain terms that one WILL be saved.

Glad you at least believe, you going above and beyond isn't at all hurting anything in your Christian walk (As I have done as well). These things should be part of every Christian's life.

Believe what you want, it's not relevant to either of us.

I've said enough... try not to kick me too much while I'm gone.

Obviously nothing I say, er... I point out that the Bible says will make a dent in what anyone else thinks, so enjoy... keep reading and studying: you're further along than most people who claim to be Christians.

Thanks, Brother, but what of [b]Jesus'[/b] clear words in [b]John 3:5[/b], how is that negated by [b]John 3:16[/b]????

What must Nicodemus have thought, getting such contradictory statements from One Who he deemed ordained of God?

Easy. Nicodemus saw nothing contradictory at all!

Every time salvation is mentioned, all of the steps are not set forth in a listing. Some say 'Just call on the name of the Lord, and you will be saved.'

Jesus said that many would call on Him in that day and would not be listened to, at all.

I prefer to listen to Him.

Eric The(Baptized)Hun[>]:)]

ETH...

I try to return to the original text when confronted with these semantic issues. The original text of the New Testament being Greek, the Greek Lexicon for John 3:5 uses the Greek word udwr {hoo'-dore} which means water, but a more complex concept of water - 'water of the deluge' ('rain' as previously stated by steenkyB), or 'of water as the primary element, out of and through which the  world that was before the deluge, arose and was compacted' (spirit maybe?)

This possibly represents a reference where the more basic english noun 'water' has been juxtaposed in place of a more complex, foreign phrase which means more than literal H2O. Unless of course, the English version of the Bible is the only one that is relevant... to which I say, I have little faith in studying the English scripure by itself because of the inconsistancies in translation.

You get into trouble long before English because the translation from Greek to Latin nets the resulting:

[i]respondit Iesus amen amen dico tibi nisi quis renatus [b]fuerit ex aqua[/b] et Spiritu non potest introire in regnum Dei
[/i]

or 'man born from water' (hmmmm... )

Being the first English iteration, KJV all and subsequent re-translations were a subjective, selection process where "scholars" chose the most appropriate form of the word to be used in the literal sense when confronted with concepts which failed to translate 1:1. No fault of their own, this being the reality of language translations (which could spawn a completely different topic about the Tower of Babel and the completeness of the 'Truth' being scattered among multiple lanbguages and cultures).

Therefore, when it comes to researching these critical, doctrinal definitions, I feel it necessary to also consult the Latin Vulgate, Greek, and Hebrew translations to try and approximate a sense of definition.

Unless of course, Jesus and the apostles spoke in English, in which case you are indeed correct and I should run headlong into the nearest puddle. But I find the more complex meaning quite intriguing and still refuse to accept it at face value, simply because King James' mission was to create a English text version of the Bible for the largely uneducated masses.

It's sad that it takes such a complex study into such a simple concept because [b]fundamentalists take the English translation of the Bible to be the LITERAL WORD OF GOD [/b]and as a result, hang themselves up on illogical concepts. Unless Jesus and the apostles spoke English.... nevermind... coming from a heretic, nothing I think or say could possibly have relevance or any value.

----

dramborleg... Mark 15:15-16 has already been covered previously in this thread. Again for posterity...

[16] He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; [b]but he that believeth not shall be damned.[/b]

Where'd baptized go in the second half? Baptized in the Spirit as a result of believing is pretty easy to understand in context of all the other references to 'baptism' in the New Testament wherein water immersion is not referenced. Water immersion could very well have been a picture of spiritual baptism used during the time between the Law of Moses and the Apostolic Church being established in Acts.

But then again gentlemen, what do I know. I am only a heretic who has nothing to offer but green monkey pee.

Wow.
4 pages of pissing contests and knockdown dragout scorekeeping!

I'm amazed and amused at the lot of us.

Still, I maintain that FAITH is all that is required to be Saved.

I can't imagine the 'just Saved but killed in the earthquake before he got baptized guy' kneeling before the Lord and getting a "Tough Luck, Dude..." from Jesus Himself.  "You're goin' to HELL 'cuz you didn't get dunked!"

I can't imagine anyone here with strong Christian Faith and Convictions NOT believing or being positive that they will be in Heaven for Eternity with Jesus when they die.

I can't imagine so many people caught up in the details and semantics and fighting over them to the point of continuing with the 'neener-neener-neener' Holier than Thou putdowns.

I really liked the quip about "I baptize you in the name of YOU, YOU, and YOU!"
That was pretty good!

Jesus must be shaking His head at all of us. [:D]



I love this place and the people who come here to share their views, no matter how different they are from one another.

I gotta go talk about guns now, 'cuz this is drivin' me nuts.

Post from BenDover -

Sorry, [b]BenDover[/b], but you painstakingly try to find 'semantic' issues, where none exist!

"Oh, yes, it means 'water', but the very essence of [u]that[/u] term must be further refined, yada, yada, yada...."

But just look at the effect of these words by [b]Jesus[/b] upon the believers of His day, and those who followed shortly. They were all [u]baptized[/u] under this water, whether it was held to be 'deluge water' or runoff 'rain water'!

That, my dear Green Monkey Piss High Priest, is the [u]historical[/u] record of His Church. [b]That its initiates were cleansed in a ritual bath.[/b]

And yet, those poor unlearned Galilean fishermen understood precisely the nuances of the term 'water' and used good old cheap, easy to find ground water in which to conduct their baptizing business!

Are you certain that you are not the 'Bill Clinton Green Monkey Piss High Priest'? Cause Bill Clinton seems to be the patron saint of all who do not understand 'is' for 'is', and, quite possibly, 'water' for 'water.'

The King James Authorized Version is a great work of translation and hasn't been improved on by [u]any[/u] subsequent versions.

It is beyond reproach, except by some unbelieving weasels who have slunk into the sacristy.

But, so what, all versions and editions are the same when it comes to these verses and the import of what Christ has spoken!

Are you, or someone else you are copying from, saying that the KJV was the [u]first[/u] English translation of the Bible?

Huh?

Is that what [u]you[/u] are saying?

I need to know, quickly, now!

Spoken like a true Bill Clinton Green Monkey Piss High Priest!

I fear that it will not be water we will soon be deluged with, if this continues!

Why, Sir, I have already addressed [u]that[/u] point.

[b]If you don't [u]believe[/u], you could be be baptized by being plunged beneath the Pacific Ocean and still not be saved![/b]

Maybe you should forget your Latin, Greek, Aramaic, and Hebrew, and concentrate instead on...English!

Hopefully, the Green Monkey Piss Bible is easier to read.

Does it have pictures? [:D]

Eric The(SassyWhenHeHasToBe)Hun[>]:)]

Well then gosh darn it... if Englais is it, then I suppose those Yaweh's Witnesses are actually correct when they call him Jeehovee. It sure sounds better than Tetragrammaton's Witnesses or Elohim Adonai's Witnesses.

[rolleyes]


For the record, I was dunked at age 8 in that Good Ol' Pentecostal Fashion.

[:D]

Now you can call me a troll. [:D] An agnostic, monkey pee baptizing, wolf, false prophet heretic, troll... who's been dunked in the big tub by an illiterate guy who showered me with volumes of saliva-ridden "hickamashundays" right before he tried to use me as a prop in the remake of the Posideon Adventure. Thank goodness that spittle washed right off before I realized what was happening because I would likely have backed out. When I was finally permitted to come to the surface to take a breath, the water was so deep (like tippy toe) I slipped trying to walk to the edge of the baptismal tub. All the old ladies standing around started shouting and 'speaking in tongues' (polysyllabic expulsion of phlegm), proclaiming that my 'slip' was my actually being under the control of spiritual forces, causing my body to quake uncontrollably via the phenomenon they called 'being slain in the spirit' (as they often demonstrated by violently unwinding their finely coiffed beehive hairdos in a raging mosh that would spark jealousy in the heart of the most hardcore, head-banging rocker).

Get my drift? I hardly consider that near-psychotic experience "vital" to my relationship with Christ and my soul's eternal future.

Ben,

Are you that obtuse sir?

Mark 15:15-16 has already been covered previously in this thread. Again for posterity...

[16] He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

In order to be baptized you must first believe, without this belief you are taking a bath. Lack of belief negates any spiritual benefit resulting from baptism.... resulting in a wet non-believer. No belief = no baptism = "shall be damned" What did I miss here Ben? I hope you are not that thick that Christ would need to staple it to your hat for you.

After re-reading your last post, I have a better idea of who you are Ben, and why you think as you do. You are scarred by your holy roller pentecostal experiences, which you rightly deem as "spurious" perhaps? I no longer feel you are a heretic, but one who was turned off by those who seek a "physical" manifestation of faith and not just faith in and of itself. This is called glossolollia. The time of direct operation of the "holy spirit" has passed and we no longer need or have these things. When that which is perfect is come, that which is in part shall done away with. The Word is perfect, that which is in part--- speaking in tongues, prophecy et al is done away with. And I commend you heartily for apparently casting aside their teaching, frothing, rolling in the aisles and babbling nonsensically, it is not of God but of men. The Holy Spirit gave us the Bible to be our guide and sole source of spiritual knowledge... to speak where it speaks and to stay silent where it stays silent. This, I and others like me, strive to do. The bible is clear on baptism of ADULTS who know the difference between good and evil and what sin and repentance mean, not innocent children with undeveloped senses of right, wrong and transgressing against the tenets that Jesus promulgated. Your posts are from study, but in taking no stand you are outside the pale my friend, and as Jesus said... he would spit you out. Big J dont apparently like fence sitters. That is why I am posting here, it gives me excellent opportunity to proclaim Christ Jesus to all who would listen.

Bus007,

There is no scorekeeping here by me, nor is this tit for tat. This is a discussion to expound more fully on the terms of salvation. This is vitally important to every Christian to know what Jesus terms are. Let the fracas continue.

By the bye, anybody know why baptists are called baptists and have baptistrys but dont think baptism is necessary? Always confused ole' Dram mightily. Yes, indeedy doody. I am a "baptist" but nah, its not necessary for salvation, I just like the name.... ummm... huh?

I am with Eric... no cut and paste theology for me. It is written in vernacular for the masses and can be translated by anyone. Neither a fool nor a wayfarer may err therein. Unless you MEAN to.