Heres a question for everybody:

If you were walking down the Street and asked random people how to transfer a firearm how many do you think you would need to talk to before finding one with the right answer?

I'm guessing hundreds if not a thousands or more.

Just because the guys here know how DOES NOT mean most people know the rules.

Maybe this poor bastard just made a mistake and instead of teaching him the right way SteyerAUG just screwed him?  Maybe not?  

Who really knows.

Nope, brand new FFL who is still very much in the red from pulling FFL, occupational license, code and zoning permits, etc. But I do do business the old fashioned way, you know where I try and make a profit.



Problem is those are "dealer prices" not retail. If I am receiving your grandaddies shotgun, I don't charge a markup. But if you are ordering from a WHOLESALE DISTRIBUTOR, I charge 10%. If you want ME to receive it you better call and get my terms FIRST.



Not a problem. Call me and find out what MY TERMS are.



Again, not true. My license, my business and my reputation. Another reason I don't sell Century Arms products is I don't want to be associated with them. When a guys POS gun is failing at the range I don't want him telling people "I" got it for him.



If Joe Blow had made one simple phone call, all of this would have been avoided. I would have even helped get him a CMP Garand even though I would NOT have made a dime by doing so. If it was a gun I am willing to stock/sell I would have done it for 10%, not much in my opinion.



Last time I checked a FFL was needed to get wholesale pricing and dealer accounts. If I could order guns "at cost" without the hassle of a FFL I would. Has something to do with the 1968 Gun Control Act.



How did "I" screw a guy by not letting him buy a gun at dealer cost? Can I ask what YOU do for a living?

Garand Shooter,
I am with you, any pricks like those likely have friends of the same type, no retail estab. needs the hassle, frankly if they dont come back you dont know what $$$ your missing out on so how can you miss it?

Luckily everytime my father has "re-educated" a person there have been other customers in the same room listening in. You should see the smirks and the nodding by the others as my dad lights into a "needed customer". This provides to things, shames the "needed customer" into seeing he is an as$ wether he agrees or not and makes him an example that we will not be taken/screwed with. Hasn't hurt our sales, in fact they've gone up every year for the last 6.

BrenLover

OK, let me preface this by stating that this is NOT a flame a ffl's !!!
That said, the comment made by Garand-shooter (my shop, My rules, dont like it go elsewhere or get your own ffl) Is, in part, the reason that so many people have had bad experiences with some ffl's. I went through several here locally before I finally developed a good relationship with one in particular.  The problems I had with the others were typical. The "why are you bothering me with this" or the condecending attitude, the constant feeling that you are inconvenienceing them by trying to buy a gun anywhere other than from the stock they have. I fully realize that there are plenty of bozo's out there, and it is your business, but that type of comment only fuels the fire.
SPECTRE

OH PLEASE! This guy doesn't know how it works? He knows enough to go through SGN, makes several attempts to order on my license, and even AFTER BEING TOLD "THE FFL MUST PLACE THE ORDER", continues until he finds a disributor willing to do it.

Bottom line is this guys was trying to save $40.00.

SteyrAUG:
So the guy f*ed up.  He didn't know the rules.

Should you teach him or punish him?

I don't know about anybody else but I have NEVER been told that FFL must call.

Maybe that's their policy. How rude of them to deny the customer something they want because they dont follow procedure!
Brenlover

Well here is an update. I found out that I can basically do anything I want with the rifle, charge $1000.00, give it away or take it out back and piss on it. The distributor says it has been "paid for" and was transferred to ME.

But I got a R.A. number and called UPS and it will ship back later today. The distributor advised me there will be a hefty restock charge. I told them to charge it to the card. I had the same authority to do this as Joe Blow did to order the rifle. NONE. But they did it anyway, funny huh. I sent the rifle back at MY EXPENSE and even insured it for $1000.00. Money was never the real issue here. I spent about the same to return the rifle as I would have made on a 10% markup.

I told Joe Blow what was being done. I told him I have no interest with doing any business with him at anytime in the future. I also advised him that if there is a single instance of harassment on his part I will turn this entire matter over to the local authorites. But I did provide him the contact number of another gun store to order from. A real surly store owner with "fuck you" pricing. They deserve each other.

But Geoff and Joe Blow have helped me make an important decision. If someone offered me a job to let guys like Goeff and Joe Blow flip me shit for $40.00 I'd never do it. So why am I doing it now?

I got into this business thinking I could help the shooting community. I go above and beyond all the time. I have no problem helping new and inexperienced shooters. Last week a guy couldn't decide between a Beretta 92FS, HKUSP or Colt 1911. I hate making recommendations on these personal issue. So I told him to schedule some range time, I met him with MY personal USP, Beretta and Colt and let him put 50 rounds through each as I explained the merits of each gun. He paid for range time and ammo only. It was a customer service on my part.

I also have no problems dealing with people who are dead ass broke. I will call 20 distributors trying to find the absolute lowest price on the best gun they can afford. Usually in the $250.00 range meaning I will make $25.00. No Problem.

I also have no problems with the Armchair Commandoes, Walter Mittys etc. I will help anyone.

In fact the only people I DO have problems with are those who try and tell ME how to run MY business. I won't deal with them at ANY price. But seems "they" outnumber ALL the other groups combined.

So my occupational license and code and zoning expire in one year, I will not renew. The plan is working, the country will have one less FFL and the people who will later complain the loudest are mostly to blame.

Okay, I see what you mean and I'm not too big a man to admit I was wrong.  If he wasn't expecting you to make a profit then he is wrong.  And yeah, Burns does suck.

Sounds like guy totally misunderstood how things work and he needs to have it explained to him.  He probably had some friend with an FFL before and just expects that everyone acts the same way even though you're not buddies.

NO, he DID know the rules, and tried to hose me anyway to save 10%. As a result I did teach him.

Not to call and get info, no.  But to place an order, yes I've been told that must be handled by an FFL who is on file with them or the FFL must send a copy with the order.  Thats the way the Federal Law works.

God Bless Texas

You are making a wise choice, not everyone has the temperment for dealing with people.  Nobody said it was easy.

From what I've been reading, SteyrAUG is a licensed firearm dealer, not a licensed teacher. He doens't make money from being a teacher.

If this guy is ignorant about ffl transfers, it is by his own choosing. He could have called Steyr beforehand, and found out the proper procedure. Instead he chose to do it on his own. He got burned because he was stupid. No more, no less.

I'm confused.  he said "I'll buy it from you...what do you charge 10%? I say, you don't understand, we do not handle Century Arms products at ANY PRICE."

So he offerd to pay 10% but was trying to screw you out of 10%?

CDNN is  perfect example of the problem. I love CDNN by the way but CANNOT sell anything from them. Here is why.

CDNN offers Bipod A for $55.00. Anyone can order it for $55.00 + S/H.

If you order it through ME, I have to charge $55.00 + S/H PLUS 6% sales tax. So you can already order it cheaper on your own. If I try and add a $5.00 markup you would really call me a crook.

Bottom line is this, FFLs are meant for dealers. Dealer "pricing" is meant for FFLs. FFLs are those who try and make a living bu selling guns for PROFIT. At 10% this ain't easy. It's even worse when a customer tries and beats you out of the minimal 10%. If customers can buy guns at the SAME PRICE that FFLs get them for, WHO IN THEIR RIGHT MIND would pay to have a FFL?

Who created this concept? ATF?

I have called distributors to "reserve" a weapon in preperation of recieving the order (FFL & payment). None would accept payment by me even though it would go to the dealer to be delivered, by doing this they ensure the dealer uses a price structure known to dealer and buyer.

Brenlover

Well I guess you have never made a mistake and that is why you feel that way, it must be nice to know everything.

Now Geoff, let ME refresh yours!

Geoff

He only offered after he was busted for trying to get sneaky. Offering after the fact is so kind of him wasn't it?
BrenLover

Read above update. I "the ffl holder" did NOT order the rifle. As a result it is being returned at "my expense." I wouldn't have kept it no matter what it was.

On a side note, the whole problem is the FFL licensing scheme in the first place.  Someone said you hang your ass out on the line to obtain one and comply with all the stupid rules and regulations, etc. The BATF can come and shut you down at any time and they may or may not kill you or at least put you in jail.

Now excuse me, but how is this any more dangerous than bootlegging?  I know this is an extreme position, but I hope it opens up a new discussion.  Gun running is far more profitable, you might as well be a gun runner.  Lord knows the quality would be better.  

The issue of wholesale/retail pricing is separate.  If you are in business, you can't survive by buying retail items through catalogs and then tacking on 6-10% to cover your overhead and try to make a profit.  That's the gun show model.  The Internet has thrown all of that on its head.  

My take is that the FFL licensing scheme is destructive to the free market.  It needs to be eliminated or else we will eventually be screwed, just like we are with Class III.

Steyr, this isn't an attack on you.  You went into business for what you feel is a good reason.  If it's a hobby business, that's fine.  If not, you need to realize that you will never be able to survive as long as the government is lording over you the way it is.
FFLs are meant to chill commerce and put dealers out of business.  

SteyrAug:

CDNN is a very good company to deal with actually...  While they do send out catagogs to everyone, they do offer dealer pricing when you call in and speak with them.

I have done a lot of business with CDNN, and each time, I get a bigger discount off of the catalog price. Once an established customer with a good history, you will be treated well!

OOOooohhhhh OUCH !!!!! Thats gonna leave a mark....
[spank][stick]

AUG-
about places like cdnn etc.  I was under the impression (from my local ffl) that when I ordered a rifle from a place that I was buying it from them, not the ffl.  Therefore he only charges a fee of like 20-25 bucks for handling the delivery, the 4473, the background checks, etc.  Do you mean yer transfer fee is 10% + X dollars, or do you buy from say CDNN and resale to the customer adding 10% to your cost?

I usually thought of it as transfer fee for buying from a different store, not as having a distributor sell it to your ffl and then to you.

No arguments here.



Here's is your only flaw. [b]you can't survive by buying retail items through catalogs and then tacking on 6-10% to cover your overhead and try to make a profit.[/b] Internet and SGN prices are NOT retail prices. They are dealer prices, that is what a FFL pay. Any you CANNOT find them any cheaper. There is NO SUCH THING as dealer pricing for companies like AIM, what YOU see is what I pay for them. Then I charge a 10% markup and make $25.00 on a $250.00 gun. I know kids at McDonalds that make more money.  



I agree the whole thing is f*cked. In NO OTHER business is the markup any less than 40%. In no other business are dealer prices advertised to the public. I do believe it is designed to get rid of guns altogether.

On a side note, I now need another job. Thought I could pay my mortgage with the $25.00 I made selling the SAR2 last week but didn't work. Maybe I'll just send my resume to the Miami ATF office, I know I would get hired. And I have Joe Blows address and a Zippo.

CDNN is a wholesale distributor. I chage 10% of the cost of the firearm/item. The transfer fee is separate. I am charged by the State of Florida a per transaction fee to do background checks on sales. I pass this cost onto the customer as well. A $250.00 rifle will cost you $275.00 plus S/H + Sales Tax + Background Check fee. If I do NOT do all of the above I risk my license. Non compliance issues are how most FFLs lose their license.

I'd have to say that I whole-heartedley agree with [b]SteyrAUG[/b] here. However, I think Burns Brothers deserves a little blame, too. Several months ago, I asked an FFL buddy if he had a copy of his license on File with Brownell's and if so, would he be willing to receive something for me (I have my C&R on file so that I can get the discounts, too)? Since he lives about 50 miles away, it was just easier to make some telephone calls than drive all over hell and back. He says, "Sure," and I call Brownell's. The FIRST thing they asked was, "Did you ask his permission?!!" To which I replied, YES!!!" Then they put me on hold and CALLED him to verify. After I'm off hold, they tell me that this has been a frequent problem, people "volunteering" the services of an FFL holder and the FFL holder gets left holding the bag. The BATF will even verify for the doubters that an FFL holder is [i]NOT REQUIRED[/i] to perform ANY transfers. [b]PERIOD[/b]. He also cannot confiscate a firearm for the purpose of an "unauthorized" transfer, but he is certainly not required to sign it over to you either. It goes back to the seller if there's a dispute. Don't like it? I guess you need to find another FFL holder with whom to conduct business. Sounds like [b]SteyrAUG[/b] was more than fair with the guy since he wound up paying the return shipping.

That is a more than fair arrangement. I would use that sort of deal any day.

With permission, of course. [;)]

What if I order from just some dealer who happens to have what I want who advertises on the net?

(Also on sales tax, i wasnt charged any in IL since I  "bought" it from some dealer in TX, why do you have to charge it?)

ok if i understand things correctly this is how i see it.


joe blow shopped around until he found an ffl in his area.

ok fine.

joe found one that happened to be steyr aug

ok fine


joe ordered the rifle
*fine

*But did so without  steyr's approval
its just common courstey to ask an ffl dealer if you can use their ffl before you order somthing.

id be pissed too.

*some dealers  dont like dealing with some distrubuters for what ever reasons.

I can respect that, if they dont want to order somthing i will go somwhere else that will.  

its their busness and  their ass. they (the establishment)dictate the terms of sale.


*i also gather that joe was trying to get out of paying steyr's usage fees.


if you want to use the services of another its usualy customary to compensate them for that service.


im with steyr aug i would be pissed to if this is what happened.

Seems there is some confusion between transfer and resale. If you are getting a gun from your buddy out of state, I am just transfering it. No markup at all, only a transfer fee. It is NOT a sale.

If I get a gun "FOR YOU" with MY FFL from GunsWholesale or any other "distributor", then I am getting it as a DEALER and reselling it to YOU. Otherwise you would simply buy it directly without me as is done in private sales.

And if that "sale" takes place in Florida, ie. you pay ME for the gun, then sales tax applies BY LAW. By the way, I don't get any of the sales tax money.

It's even worse than that...


Joe Blow shopped around until he found the absolute lowest (dealer) prices in SGN.

Then armed with my business card, which he got at a LE show I did two weeks ago off my table proceeds to call and "try" and order from several distibutors on my FFL. At least 3 refused to deal with him as HE was not the FFL.

Finally finds a "distributor" who has my FFL on file who will take the order AND put it on his credit card.

Joe Blow then "tracks" the package and calls ME "FOR THE FIRST TIME" on the day it is to be delivered, to see when he "Can come by and get HIS gun."

Much merriement ensues from this point.



But HAVE I GOT A DEAL FOR HIM AND ANYONE ELSE.


Since i am going out of business anyway...

I will transfer ANY FIREARM AT DEALER COST PLUS S/H, sales tax and background check fees. THAT'S RIGHT, I WON'T MAKE A SINGLE PENNY.

The only catch is I get to kick you hard as I f*ckin can in the nads one time. You will of course have to sign a waiver stating that all injuries or death resulting from said kick to the nutsack is not my fault.

That's it, you can then get up, take your new gun and limp home.

Man you sure are getting alot of shit over this....

SteyrAUG,
The guy was wrong.  You were more than fair with him, even after he tried to screw with you, because you paid the shipping back.  For CYA pruposes that was probably the best call, but he didn't even deserve that courtesy from you.

It is too bad you are getting out of the business.

So, I am curious Steyr, do you have any [i]good[/i] stories so far to tell about you FFL business?  You are starting to worry some potential FFL holders (hell, including me)!

Oh, BTW, I'll happily take the Garand off your hands.  Hell, I'll even throw in $10.

SteyrAUG said:



Wow.  I don't have any friends that would do that for me, much less a dealer.  One reason I'm so impressed with that is that I'm torn between the three.  The last time I fired a 1911 was about 50 years ago, so that doesn't help.  I wish I could find all three at a range where I could compare them.  That is truly a valuable service.z

What I find curious is the sudden case of laryngitis that seems to have struck Geoff Moore when I posted the email from him stating that he DID want the additional lower receiver...  [:X*]

SteyrAUG

I think you did the right thing!
If you did stuff like that for everyone, and did it for free, then you would be out of work in no time.
I ordered a CZ70 from Aimsurplus.com for $79.00 and had it shipped to a local dealer in Michigan. I asked first then went about the order. They charged me a $20.00 fee for the transfer and that was it. I thought it was a good deal. The guy was in the wrong and that's that.
If he calls back tell him to piss up a rope![soapbox]

The sensible thing to do would be to transfer the guys rifle, swallow your pride , charge him a usual transfer fee, and give him a little tongue lashing on checking with you before he orders firearms and has them sent to you.

  #1 You might gain a friend
  #2 You will gain possible future business from his friends.
  #3 You can avoid all the time it will take to fight this guy if it goes to court.
  #4 It isn't like he is an anti gunner or something. Try and treat fellow gunners like brothers.

If you go the route you are anticipating, here are the things to come.

  #1 Guy bad mouthing you to everyone he sees.(Bad for business)
  #2 Guy making complaint to ATF. Causing you time and headache answering all the crap questions.(Bad for business)
  #3 You getting stressed for no reason when you could have just done the transfer.(Bad for Business)

  I see nothing good coming from you being "Mr. Tough Guy" and not transfering the Firearm. Hell maybe ATF will turn him down on the NCICS check and you will send it back anyway. Just cooperate with the guy and give him the tongue lashing. Century may be crap, but that isn't your problem because that is what he wanted.

[b]May the Flame Fest begin![/b]

Me first, I'll take that deal.  It's the "KICK ME IN THE JIMMY" deal.  Oh, wait a minute, I'm in CA.  Nevermind:)

Cool, thats kinda what I thought

I have to agree, I wouldn't give them business if they were the last gun shop on L.I.!!

FYI....I use Brian at "Guns & Ammo" on Sunrise Hwy., in Bohemia. He is the Armorer for Suffolk PD, friendly and knows his stuff. Although his ammo is a little pricey, but he has to stay in business!!     [:)]

What a bunch of bullshit.  You don't actually believe that do you?  The guy is wrong for many reasons but on sticks out most.  It was rude to impose his wishes on an unsuspecting FFL.  It is bad form to not ask permission.  Transfer fees and markups are the cost of during business.  I would rather pay someone to take care of the hassle of ordering and storing a firearm until I can pick it up.  The bottom line, the guy was a dick.  SteyrAUG
was more accommodating than I would have been.