Anti gay bashing/Hate crime bill expected to pass today. - Page 3

[ARCHIVED THREAD] - Anti gay bashing/Hate crime bill expected to pass today. (Page 3 of 5)

Posted: 4/29/2009 8:47:03 AM EDT

[#1]

What about our home grown Holocaust Deniers? Are we going the Euro route to ban this speech? Westboro Baptists? Are they in the cross-hairs of this bill?

Most importantly can we still raise a toast to Great Leader....____ Obama.

Posted: 4/29/2009 8:51:18 AM EDT

[#2]

Quoted:

Quoted:
So you're ok with certain groups of people having special rights for them?

So you, a plain white guy gets mugged; ticket and a fine for the perp.

Homo guy gets mugged; life in prision for perp.

Kinda sounds familiar.

Allah Akbar!!!!!

Actually it general works like this..

Your a gay____ and you get beat half to death by 4-5 guys that sat outside of a gay bar. And while you're telling your story to the police..they are making crude comments about fags and AIDS and so forth. Then when you press charges against the guys who beat up up...you get told that they are saying YOU tried to rape them and they where just defending themselves. Then you get to go to court ( if it goes to court) and have your sex life for the last 10 yrs laid out for the jury full of str8s.....Then if you get a conviction...and thats a big if the conervative judge gives your attackers a fine and many some probation.

Thats far fetched and sounds like the typical talking point in favor of this subject. Bottom line is that this is creating a LAW that pertains to ONE group.

An exclusive law.

Next will be certain races. oh wait....

Posted: 4/29/2009 8:51:46 AM EDT

[#3]

Quoted:
[
Would you like me to judge you by the behavior of the gays who vandilized several religious properties accross the country? How about the terrorist letters sent by homosexual activists to temple and FreeMason mailrooms? How about the homosexual activists who mapped out the names and homes of those who supported Prop 8 so the Prop 8 supporters could be found and persecuted?

That sword cuts both ways, SS. You should reconsidering swinging it considering that you of all people have lectured against it in the past.

Couple question..becuase your following the LDS attacks.

1. Has anyone been charged in the fires yet?
2. Has anyone been charged in the terrorist letters yet?

If not...how do you know a homosexual activists did it?. And not just someone with a hard on for the LDS?

Posted: 4/29/2009 8:55:42 AM EDT

[#4]

Quoted:

Quoted:
So you're ok with certain groups of people having special rights for them?

So you, a plain white guy gets mugged; ticket and a fine for the perp.

Homo guy gets mugged; life in prision for perp.

Kinda sounds familiar.

Allah Akbar!!!!!

Actually it general works like this..

Your a gay____ and you get beat half to death by 4-5 guys that sat outside of a gay bar. And while you're telling your story to the police..they are making crude comments about fags and AIDS and so forth. Then when you press charges against the guys who beat up up...you get told that they are saying YOU tried to rape them and they where just defending themselves. Then you get to go to court ( if it goes to court) and have your sex life for the last 10 yrs laid out for the jury full of str8s.....Then if you get a conviction...and thats a big if the conervative judge gives your attackers a fine and many some probation.

Nice stereotypes. Sounds to me like you're bigoted against straight people.

Nope.....just know how some of you are when it comes to gay anything.

Would you like me to judge you by the behavior of the gays who vandilized several religious properties accross the country? How about the terrorist letters sent by homosexual activists to temple and FreeMason mailrooms? How about the homosexual activists who mapped out the names and homes of those who supported Prop 8 so the Prop 8 supporters could be found and persecuted?

That sword cuts both ways, SS. You should reconsidering swinging it considering that you of all people have lectured against it in the past.

Why were the Freemasons targeted?

Posted: 4/29/2009 9:05:53 AM EDT

[#5]

Quoted:

Quoted:
[
Would you like me to judge you by the behavior of the gays who vandilized several religious properties accross the country? How about the terrorist letters sent by homosexual activists to temple and FreeMason mailrooms? How about the homosexual activists who mapped out the names and homes of those who supported Prop 8 so the Prop 8 supporters could be found and persecuted?

That sword cuts both ways, SS. You should reconsidering swinging it considering that you of all people have lectured against it in the past.

Couple question..becuase your following the LDS attacks.

1. Has anyone been charged in the fires yet?
2. Has anyone been charged in the terrorist letters yet?

If not...how do you know a homosexual activists did it?. And not just someone with a hard on for the LDS?

You're kidding, right? I can't believe that you deceive yourself that badly.

Must have beem mere coincidence that the LDS temples and Knights of Columbus received anthrax hoaxes during the same time that they were facing vandalism and protests.

Posted: 4/29/2009 9:10:00 AM EDT

[#6]

Quoted:

Quoted:
So you're ok with certain groups of people having special rights for them?

So you, a plain white guy gets mugged; ticket and a fine for the perp.

Homo guy gets mugged; life in prision for perp.

Kinda sounds familiar.

Allah Akbar!!!!!

Actually it general works like this..

Your a gay____ and you get beat half to death by 4-5 guys that sat outside of a gay bar. And while you're telling your story to the police..they are making crude comments about fags and AIDS and so forth. Then when you press charges against the guys who beat up up...you get told that they are saying YOU tried to rape them and they where just defending themselves. Then you get to go to court ( if it goes to court) and have your sex life for the last 10 yrs laid out for the jury full of str8s.....Then if you get a conviction...and thats a big if the conervative judge gives your attackers a fine and many some probation.

Nice stereotypes. Sounds to me like you're bigoted against straight people.

Nope.....just know how some of you are when it comes to gay anything.

Would you like me to judge you by the behavior of the gays who vandilized several religious properties accross the country? How about the terrorist letters sent by homosexual activists to temple and FreeMason mailrooms? How about the homosexual activists who mapped out the names and homes of those who supported Prop 8 so the Prop 8 supporters could be found and persecuted?

That sword cuts both ways, SS. You should reconsidering swinging it considering that you of all people have lectured against it in the past.

Why were the Freemasons targeted?

My bad. It was the Catholic Knights of Columbus that were targeted:
http://www.lifesitenews.com/ldn/2008/nov/08111711.html

Posted: 4/29/2009 9:26:00 AM EDT

[#7]

Quoted:

Quoted:
Does anyone want to know the nature of what a "hate crime" entails and why it's more harshly punished or do you want to keep having an circle jerk thread?

Well...?

So glad you asked.

The reasoning behind hate crimes is that they are not simply an attack on an individual. They are an attack on an individual launched based on that individual being a member of a group. That makes them divisive to the community at large which increases tension between two or more groups.

For example, if three white guys drag a black guy to death and then spray-paint "NIGGER" on his corpse making it obvious that the attack was based on the fact that he was black then it will invariably and rightfully upset other blacks and makes them feel more vulnerable and outraged as a group. This increases tensions within the community and makes retaliatory attacks more likely, it goes much deeper then the effects on the murdered individual and their family. That's the logic behind why they're more harshly punished.

You can reverse the races, make it about religion, whatever. That's the idea behind it. Whether hate crime legislation works or not or is evenly applied is a different debate, but at it's core the idea is designed around the fact that some crimes are actually worse then others based on their nature, not about protecting chosen groups as people seem to want to believe.

Posted: 4/29/2009 9:30:57 AM EDT

[#8]

Quoted:
As we saw at the LDS Temple in LA during the post-Proposition 8 protests (say that fast three times) the police and prosecutors didn't pay much attention when gay rights activists vandalized the temple property.

But when a few polynesian Mormons got fed up and started busting heads suddenly everyone started yelling about hate crimes.

You don't see why "busting heads" might draw more police attention then vandalism? Seriously? Does it really need to be explained? Do you think the cops would go out of their way to track down someone that spray painted on a gay club? Gay clubs get vandalized all the time, no one calls in the forensics team to track down the offenders and send them to prison for life, i promise.

Posted: 4/29/2009 9:38:24 AM EDT

[#9]

Quoted:

Quoted:
As we saw at the LDS Temple in LA during the post-Proposition 8 protests (say that fast three times) the police and prosecutors didn't pay much attention when gay rights activists vandalized the temple property.

But when a few polynesian Mormons got fed up and started busting heads suddenly everyone started yelling about hate crimes.

You don't see why "busting heads" might draw more police attention then vandalism? Seriously? Does it really need to be explained? Do you think the cops would go out of their way to track down someone that spray painted on a gay club? Gay clubs get vandalized all the time, no one calls in the forensics team to track down the offenders and send them to prison for life, i promise.

Except this was a mob event...and the police were witnesses to much of what was going on. It doesn't take a forensics team when you have the perpetrators doing it right there in front of you.

What more, the physical confrontation was a direct byproduct of the vandalism. The polynesians saw themselves as defending a holy place. If the laws were being enforced to begin with it would have never escalated to that point. The gays knew, as a protected class, that they could get away with it.

Posted: 4/29/2009 9:39:21 AM EDT

[#10]

Quoted:

Quoted:
As we saw at the LDS Temple in LA during the post-Proposition 8 protests (say that fast three times) the police and prosecutors didn't pay much attention when gay rights activists vandalized the temple property.

But when a few polynesian Mormons got fed up and started busting heads suddenly everyone started yelling about hate crimes.

You don't see why "busting heads" might draw more police attention then vandalism? Seriously? Does it really need to be explained? Do you think the cops would go out of their way to track down someone that spray painted on a gay club? Gay clubs get vandalized all the time, no one calls in the forensics team to track down the offenders and send them to prison for life, i promise.

In this case, that vandalism is desecration. They should have busted more heads.

This nation was founded on Christian principles and if you don't like that go back in time and change it. People preaching from the Bible aren't committing hate speech.

Posted: 4/29/2009 9:41:22 AM EDT

[#11]

Quoted:

Quoted:
As we saw at the LDS Temple in LA during the post-Proposition 8 protests (say that fast three times) the police and prosecutors didn't pay much attention when gay rights activists vandalized the temple property.

But when a few polynesian Mormons got fed up and started busting heads suddenly everyone started yelling about hate crimes.

You don't see why "busting heads" might draw more police attention then vandalism? Seriously? Does it really need to be explained? Do you think the cops would go out of their way to track down someone that spray painted on a gay club? Gay clubs get vandalized all the time, no one calls in the forensics team to track down the offenders and send them to prison for life, i promise.

In this case, that vandalism is desecration. They should have busted more heads.

This nation was founded on Christian principles and if you don't like that go back in time and change it. People preaching from the Bible aren't committing hate speech.

Not sure if the "founded on Christian principles" argument will hold water very well, but the rest is true enough.

Posted: 4/29/2009 9:47:36 AM EDT

[#12]

Quoted:
Exactly. Annatrocity is in denial of how hate crimes really work.

Not really. This isn't exactly a pet legislative poltical project. I just bothered to take my left index finger out of my nose for 5 minutes to type a couple words into google so I would know what the logic behind hate crime legislation is before saying that "it's about protecting certain classes!". I did a little research on the why's because no one seems to understand the why so they just insert false reasoning. How they're actually applied is a completely different debate and one that I am not prepared to engage in because that's a larger social issue then I care to tackle.

They are nothing but bully sticks for special interest groups.

Being that they can really only be used as a bully stick against people who are in fact commuting some usually pretty aweful crimes I don't really see the issue.

Otherwise she should be demanding that the homosexual activists that were vandilizing the temple grounds be prosecuted for hate crimes.

Frankly I'm more about busting heads for vandalism myself so I can empathize with the polynesians as long as they caught the perpetrators in the act If I caught someone redhanded spraypainting "DYKE" on my car or the like I'd probably just beat all the teeth out of their heads.

Annatrocity has *never* demanded hate crime legislation be used in any regard. In fact, Annatrocity is relatively politically uninvolved even for causes that benefit her so expecting her to go to bat for a church who's political goals are directly opposed her own is amusing. Particularly when you try to paint her as a hypocrite if she doesn't.

Posted: 4/29/2009 9:48:15 AM EDT

[#13]

Wow I came to this thread late.

I for one semi-disagree with Stoner on this issue. While it may seem like a good idea to have Hate Crime legislation I do not agree with such legislation. The government should have things it does and doesn't do. The government should not be a respecter of groups, only of persons. It is natural law that all men were created equal. Since it is my opinion that Hate Crime legislation is abused and ineffective, and furthermore it falls outside the scope of government, I do not agree with it.

If I ever get bashed and the fucker is lucky enough to come upon me while I am unarmed I will have to think long and hard about bringing the fist of government down on the attacker through Hate Crime legislation.

Posted: 4/29/2009 9:53:28 AM EDT

[#14]

Quoted:

Being that they can really only be used as a bully stick against people who are in fact commuting some usually pretty aweful crimes I don't really see the issue.

The issue is that if the laws are already being enforced there is no use for the bully stick.

As someone else recently said, the government shouldn't "respect" one group any more than another as far as law enforcement. That you don't see an issue with that says a lot about you.

Posted: 4/29/2009 9:57:15 AM EDT

[#15]

Quoted:

Quoted:

Being that they can really only be used as a bully stick against people who are in fact commuting some usually pretty aweful crimes I don't really see the issue.

The issue is that if the laws are already being enforced there is no use for the bully stick.

As someone else recently said, the government shouldn't "respect" one group any more than another as far as law enforcement. That you don't see an issue with that says a lot about you.

Thanks for the credit Shane, I feel the love.

Government should have clear boundaries (see the Constitution) and should not go beyond those boundaries. All these attempts to "fix" problems just create more problems.

Posted: 4/29/2009 10:30:34 AM EDT

[#16]

Quoted:

Quoted:
As we saw at the LDS Temple in LA during the post-Proposition 8 protests (say that fast three times) the police and prosecutors didn't pay much attention when gay rights activists vandalized the temple property.

But when a few polynesian Mormons got fed up and started busting heads suddenly everyone started yelling about hate crimes.

You don't see why "busting heads" might draw more police attention then vandalism? Seriously? Does it really need to be explained? Do you think the cops would go out of their way to track down someone that spray painted on a gay club? Gay clubs get vandalized all the time, no one calls in the forensics team to track down the offenders and send them to prison for life, i promise.

Except this was a mob event...and the police were witnesses to much of what was going on. It doesn't take a forensics team when you have the perpetrators doing it right there in front of you.

What more, the physical confrontation was a direct byproduct of the vandalism. The polynesians saw themselves as defending a holy place. If the laws were being enforced to begin with it would have never escalated to that point. The gays knew, as a protected class, that they could get away with it.

Take it up with your local law enforcement. There's nothing I can do for you.

Posted: 4/29/2009 10:31:44 AM EDT

[#17]

Quoted:
This nation was founded on Christian principles and if you don't like that go back in time and change it. People preaching from the Bible aren't committing hate speech.

Seems a funny card to play in this debate. Have I said anything at all anti-christian?

Posted: 4/29/2009 10:34:02 AM EDT

[#18]

Just another step closer to Obongo's utopia.

Posted: 4/29/2009 10:34:04 AM EDT

[#19]

Quoted:

Quoted:

Being that they can really only be used as a bully stick against people who are in fact commuting some usually pretty aweful crimes I don't really see the issue.

The issue is that if the laws are already being enforced there is no use for the bully stick.

As someone else recently said, the government shouldn't "respect" one group any more than another as far as law enforcement. That you don't see an issue with that says a lot about you.

As I said, you'll have to take up selective enforcement with someone other then me. I've only attempted to explained the logic behind the laws which is that a "hate crime" is more an attack against a group then against an individual. I'm neither going to condemn nor condone the legislation. Thats outside the scope of what I'm trying to do, I don't fully understand the social issues at play to bother to make an argument either way, I'm simply pointing out the reasoning.

Posted: 4/29/2009 10:42:39 AM EDT

[#20]

Quoted:

Quoted:
This nation was founded on Christian principles and if you don't like that go back in time and change it. People preaching from the Bible aren't committing hate speech.

Seems a funny card to play in this debate. Have I said anything at all anti-christian?

No Ma'am was speaking in general to those who feel this "hate speech" legislation is important to have.

Posted: 4/29/2009 11:37:36 AM EDT

[#21]

Quoted:
As I said, you'll have to take up selective enforcement with someone other then me.

And there's the heart of the matter. Instead of creating privileged classes of people in regards to how laws get enforced, the focus should be ensuring that enforcement isn't selective.

This is my argument as to why "hate crimes" shouldn't exist. Instead we as a people should be seeking to ensure unbiased enforcement of existing laws.

Posted: 4/29/2009 12:00:29 PM EDT

[#22]

Quoted:

Quoted:
As we saw at the LDS Temple in LA during the post-Proposition 8 protests (say that fast three times) the police and prosecutors didn't pay much attention when gay rights activists vandalized the temple property.

But when a few polynesian Mormons got fed up and started busting heads suddenly everyone started yelling about hate crimes.

You don't see why "busting heads" might draw more police attention then vandalism? Seriously? Does it really need to be explained? Do you think the cops would go out of their way to track down someone that spray painted on a gay club? Gay clubs get vandalized all the time, no one calls in the forensics team to track down the offenders and send them to prison for life, i promise.

That's usually because the persons who vandalize gay clubs aren't standing in front of them protesting while they are doing it.

The fact the gay-rights activists could spray paint on the fences and throw garbage on the temple grounds with impunity even with the police standing nearby suggests strongly there is a double standard when it comes to hate crimes.

Posted: 4/29/2009 12:10:59 PM EDT

[#23]

Quoted:
Instead of creating privileged classes of people in regards to how laws get enforced,

How many times do I need to point out that it is not to privilege certain classes? You guys keep saying this as if this is the intent behind the legislation and it's utter baloney. Religion is included under the legislation, do you feel like a privileged class? I know I sure don't.

the focus should be ensuring that enforcement isn't selective.

Absolutely.

This is my argument as to why "hate crimes" shouldn't exist. Instead we as a people should be seeking to ensure unbiased enforcement of existing laws.

I think we as a people should be seeking to ensure that we get past attacking people based on bigotry.

Posted: 4/29/2009 12:25:02 PM EDT

[#24]

Quoted:

Quoted:
As we saw at the LDS Temple in LA during the post-Proposition 8 protests (say that fast three times) the police and prosecutors didn't pay much attention when gay rights activists vandalized the temple property.

But when a few polynesian Mormons got fed up and started busting heads suddenly everyone started yelling about hate crimes.

You don't see why "busting heads" might draw more police attention then vandalism? Seriously? Does it really need to be explained? Do you think the cops would go out of their way to track down someone that spray painted on a gay club? Gay clubs get vandalized all the time, no one calls in the forensics team to track down the offenders and send them to prison for life, i promise.

That's usually because the persons who vandalize gay clubs aren't standing in front of them protesting while they are doing it.

The fact the gay-rights activists could spray paint on the fences and throw garbage on the temple grounds with impunity even with the police standing nearby suggests strongly there is a double standard when it comes to hate crimes.

It might strongly suggest that the police are a bunch of fag lovers, or it might strongly suggest that busting heads gets more attention from the cops then littering and vandalism. Alternatively it could suggest that the police just don't care much for the LDS church and wanted specifically to fuck with the LDS church rather then having a double standard that favors gays. It could also suggest that the scenario is not so black and white as you've presented it to be. There are more variables at work here then your unproven opinion that being gay makes one a protected class with the cops in that area.

besides, I didn't know you were called dennis.

Posted: 4/29/2009 12:34:18 PM EDT

[#25]

Quoted:

Quoted:
As we saw at the LDS Temple in LA during the post-Proposition 8 protests (say that fast three times) the police and prosecutors didn't pay much attention when gay rights activists vandalized the temple property.

But when a few polynesian Mormons got fed up and started busting heads suddenly everyone started yelling about hate crimes.

You don't see why "busting heads" might draw more police attention then vandalism? Seriously? Does it really need to be explained? Do you think the cops would go out of their way to track down someone that spray painted on a gay club? Gay clubs get vandalized all the time, no one calls in the forensics team to track down the offenders and send them to prison for life, i promise.

That's usually because the persons who vandalize gay clubs aren't standing in front of them protesting while they are doing it.

The fact the gay-rights activists could spray paint on the fences and throw garbage on the temple grounds with impunity even with the police standing nearby suggests strongly there is a double standard when it comes to hate crimes.

It might strongly suggest that the police are a bunch of fag lovers, or it might strongly suggest that busting heads gets more attention from the cops then littering and vandalism. Alternatively it could suggest that the police just don't care much for the LDS church and wanted specifically to fuck with the LDS church rather then having a double standard that favors gays. It could also suggest that the scenario is not so black and white as you've presented it to be. There are more variables at work here then your unproven opinion that being gay makes one a protected class with the cops in that area.

besides, I didn't know you were called dennis.

That's not evidence of bias when it comes to hate crimes enforcement?

As I said before, I can understand the rationale behind hate crimes laws. However, in practice they become a tool for prosecutors or police to stick it to whichever group they're not particularly fond of.

And you'll have to explain that last joke, it went right over my head.

Posted: 4/29/2009 12:50:12 PM EDT

[#26]

Quoted:

I think we as a people should be seeking to ensure that we get past attacking people based on bigotry.

That would be nice, but it would require everyone to adhere to the same definition and understanding of bigotry. Who gets to define and establish what counts as bigotry and what doesn't? Also, what about criminal attacks that aren't based on bigotry? Are those attacks OK?

Posted: 4/29/2009 1:05:08 PM EDT

[#27]

Quoted:
Just reported on FOX News...........if the bill passes senate this time around , it could mean prosecution against clergy who preach the sins of homosexual behavior.

Looking for link............

ETA.........Thanks Ashes

How would clergy be prosecuted? any iteration I have seen of this bill has been very clear on what constitutes hate speech and all except the most fiery of preachers don't even come close. the only one I have seen is the group from Kansas that protest funerals with their god hates fags posters.

They definitely fall under hate speech.

I have asked before and no one has answered to my knowledge.

Why is this gun board so infatuated with the topic of Gays? I don't personally know of any forum that talks more about gays.

Posted: 4/29/2009 1:11:58 PM EDT

[#28]

Quoted:

Why is this gun board so infatuated with the topic of Gays? I don't personally know of any forum that talks more about gays.

Good question. Then again, in a discussion of California on THR I was almost banned for mentioning the gays who defiantly broke state law by getting "married" in SF a few years back.

My hunch is that gays aren't discussed on many other forums because the topic gets shut down by admins when brought up.

Posted: 4/29/2009 1:17:51 PM EDT

[#29]

Quoted:

Quoted:
Lord help the next white guy that beats up a gay black guy over anything... He will be punished "extra extra" special.

Nope...all the white guy has to do to beat a hate crime rap, is not use any antigay langauge while he's committing the crime.

So...someone should be punished for their speech?

Depends on the situation. In general no but if someone says faggot I am going to kill you and proceeds to beat the guy to death or damn near to death and the evidence shows the guy did it simply because he was gay. Then yes I think his speech is directly linked to the crime.

If a bunch of white people hang a black man and are screaming die nigger the whole time then yes I think the speech becomes part of the crime. And if it for example can be used in either case as a way to give them the death penalty I am all for it.

Where I don't agree with this is if someone merely says, "hey you stupid nigger" or "hey you look like a faggot" I don't think that should be a crime. People have the right to say stupid shit.

Were it is directly linked to a violent crime yeah I think it should be used to increase the penalty.

If some gay dude pinches a guys ass and the guy says hey you nasty homo keep your hands off me that shouldn't be a crime.

If the gay guy says to some dude can I buy you a drink and the guy goes apeshit and calls calling him a faggot as he stomps the guys head in than yeah he deserves the extra judicial ass whipping.

Posted: 4/29/2009 1:19:16 PM EDT

[#30]

Quoted:

Quoted:
Lord help the next white guy that beats up a gay black guy over anything... He will be punished "extra extra" special.

Nope...all the white guy has to do to beat a hate crime rap, is not use any antigay langauge while he's committing the crime.

So...someone should be punished for their speech?

I haven't seen the bill text but it sounds like it doesn't affect speech unless it's preceeded by your fist.

That is how I understood it. Now if they are slamming preachers for going off on the sins of homosexuality. Well that is fucked up. And I doubt they could do that legally.

Posted: 4/29/2009 1:21:23 PM EDT

[#31]

Quoted:
Well it looks like about anything I do now is a hate crime. I probably would'nt beat down a gay dude nowadays, I would'nt want to be exposed to aids.

You beat people for being gay? Kinda trashy behavior isn't it?

I hope you pick your targets wisely. I know more than a few gay dudes that would very likely make you their love muffin.

Posted: 4/29/2009 1:25:01 PM EDT

[#32]

Quoted:

Quoted:
Lord help the next white guy that beats up a gay black guy over anything... He will be punished "extra extra" special.

Nope...all the white guy has to do to beat a hate crime rap, is not use any antigay langauge while he's committing the crime.

So...someone should be punished for their speech?

It's not speech...but intention of attack. You can call someone a fag all you want, you just can't call them a fag while your kicking their ass.

So, it's a brief suspension of the First Amendment?

How is calling someone a fag or a nigger as you stomp their brains out a 1st amendment issue?

Seriously, there is a time to move and protest and act. There is a time to raise up and defend our constitution. This is not one of those times. I think you have the right to call someone anything you want. I don't think you have the right to call them whatever you want as part of an assault and battery.

Posted: 4/29/2009 1:27:55 PM EDT

[#33]

Even if he has Gays in his Administration , Does anyone really believe that Obama gives a shit about Gay Rights ?

Like other Power Grabbers he's only using thsi issue to Silence those who oppose him

When the time is right he'll throw the Gays right under the Bus like he did his own Grandmother

Notice awhile backwhen the Gays equated their plight to the Civil rights struggle of Blacks their was an Uproar from groups like NAACP

But now because "Homeboy" ( as my co-workers call him ) is pushing the Gay Rights Agenda these same groups will now STFU

Again "Look at the Big Picture " see how this is parallel to the DHS memo

Watch and see I'll bet another move soon will be a Ban on HomeSchooling

As a sidenote : Any Church that I ever went to NEVER preached Hatred for Gays
Just the opposite, that they were to be embraced
Only the Behavior was condemned just as Heterosexual Promiscuity ,Lying, Stealing, Cheating, Hatred is condemned

Westboro Baptist is an Anomaly, and anyone that equates that Church with my Local Neighborhood Baptist Church is an absolute idiot

What the Gov't will consider Hate Speech will be simply to state that "Homosexuality is a sin and is wrong

Posted: 4/29/2009 1:32:11 PM EDT

[#34]

No matter what rationale you use to justify it, Hate Crimes means two sets of rules, one set for some folks and another set for other folks. And that is about as un-American as it comes.

Equal treatment under the law, no matter what race, gender or sexual preference. What's so fucking hard to understand about that?

Two sets of rules is just plain wrong. End of motherfucking story.

Posted: 4/29/2009 1:36:00 PM EDT

[#35]

Yeah well, the gays can go fuck themselves. Or each other as the case may be.

Posted: 4/29/2009 1:38:33 PM EDT

[#36]

Quoted:

Quoted:
Lord help the next white guy that beats up a gay black guy over anything... He will be punished "extra extra" special.

Nope...all the white guy has to do to beat a hate crime rap, is not use any antigay langauge while he's committing the crime.

So...someone should be punished for their speech?

yup....never was about equal rights...it's about silencing those who disagree with you.

THIS, is the truth!!

And once again your full of shit....please show the class where it says that ANYWHERE in the Federal hate crimes laws or any hate crime law in the US. Matter of fact ask Fred Phelps...becuase he takes his little road show to cities that have hate crime laws....and has never been even be charge with one.

So to make it easy to understand for some here.......if you don't go around assaulting or killing people you don't have anything to worry about.

From now on the punishment for assault shall be public lynching and the seizure of your entire family's financial assets.

Who cares though as long as you don't go around assaulting people you have nothing to worry about.

Posted: 4/29/2009 1:42:20 PM EDT

[#37]

Quoted:
The whole notion of hate crimes is beyond stupid. Crimes are crimes. Murdering someone because they are gay/black/whatever leaves a victim that is just as dead as murdering somebody over their ATM withdrawal. It's still murder, and that's what the death penalty is for.

We should be eliminating "hate crime" legislation...not seeking to expand it.

You don't think there is room for this to be used as evidence? sort of extenuating circumstances? I am obviously not a lawyer but this seems to be sort of like saying ok this dirtbag killed this guy during the hold up at the 7-11. Now we have the two crimes needed to raise this to the level of a death penalty case.

In all states is "just" murder enough to put someone on death row or do they need additional charges?

If I lose my mind and decide to act like a 15 yr old and get in a fight with someone that happens to be gay and I beat his ass because he stepped on my new sneakers and got them dirty that is stupid enough and deserves at least a battery charge. If I get in a fight with the same guy just because I know he is gay and call him a faggot doesn't that help show that the assault and battery was not just me being stupid but also shows I attacked him because of him being gay?

And more to the point if people are setting out to do harm to a person because of their sexual preference or skin color or their religion why should they get a pass on that? Why should their attack be treated just like a "normal" attack? If I attack someone due to their sexuality and I am screaming die you nasty faggot why should I not get the extra punishment?

I think it is odd that some people are worried about the idea that someone may get punished for what they say to someone when they attack them for no reason.

Posted: 4/29/2009 1:44:05 PM EDT

[#38]

Quoted:

Quoted:
Lord help the next white guy that beats up a gay black guy over anything... He will be punished "extra extra" special.

Nope...all the white guy has to do to beat a hate crime rap, is not use any antigay langauge while he's committing the crime.

No, he must have PROOF that he did not use any language that could be perceived as anti-gay or anti-race. Perception is different for everybody, ya know.

Posted: 4/29/2009 1:44:39 PM EDT

[#39]

Quoted:

That's not evidence of bias when it comes to hate crimes enforcement?

I'd suggest that's evidence of bias regardless of which laws are being enforced so it's not an issue inherent to hate crime legislation.

However, in practice they become a tool for prosecutors or police to stick it to whichever group they're not particularly fond of.

Can you back this up or is this speculation? Being that we only just recently (hopefully) graduated from "hate crime legislation is just because congress loves gays and blacks the most!" I would be surprised if you could do anything close to proving this assertion. Besides, you can't "stick it" to anyone that's not committing a crime in the first place.

And you'll have to explain that last joke, it went right over my head.

Rewatch the scene your avatar is from.

Posted: 4/29/2009 1:45:02 PM EDT

[#40]

Quoted:

I think it is odd that some people are worried about the idea that someone may get punished for what they say to someone when they attack them for no reason.

Will the hate crime legislation be used against gays when they kill/attack regular people?

Do blacks get charged with hate crimes now when they target whites?

Posted: 4/29/2009 1:47:26 PM EDT

[#41]

Quoted:

But we all know how these laws tend to change over the years right

It won't take long before it's an extra charge tacked on just because the person happens to be gay, regardless of whether you even knew it or not.

Well shouldn't we wait until that happens? I never understood people opposing something because something they made up might happen. If we applied the well something else might happen if we pass this law rule to all laws I am relatively certain we'd have no laws and we'd live in anarchy.

Posted: 4/29/2009 1:49:04 PM EDT

[#42]

I don't see how they could go against the clergy, it's still free speech. Normally they don't incite violence against the gays, they just say it's a sin. A sin is a sin. They don't hate you they pray for you.

Posted: 4/29/2009 1:50:03 PM EDT

[#43]

Quoted:

Quoted:
Lord help the next white guy that beats up a gay black guy over anything... He will be punished "extra extra" special.

Nope...all the white guy has to do to beat a hate crime rap, is not use any antigay langauge while he's committing the crime.

So...someone should be punished for their speech?

yup....never was about equal rights...it's about silencing those who disagree with you.

THIS, is the truth!!

And once again your full of shit....please show the class where it says that ANYWHERE in the Federal hate crimes laws or any hate crime law in the US. Matter of fact ask Fred Phelps...becuase he takes his little road show to cities that have hate crime laws....and has never been even be charge with one.

So to make it easy to understand for some here.......if you don't go around assaulting or killing people you don't have anything to worry about.

I guess assaulting includes yelling, correct? Do you think yelling at someone should be a felony? Go read the brief of People v. Rokicki, consider that if he had yelled and caused a disturbance towards a non protected class he would have had a simple misdemeanor, and then turn the circumstances around and apply the same standard to you....and get back with us on your opinion.

Tread with caution, to be too fond of a group identity is to destroy yourself as an individual.

Posted: 4/29/2009 1:50:41 PM EDT

[#44]

Quoted:

Quoted:
Lord help the next white guy that beats up a gay black guy over anything... He will be punished "extra extra" special.

Nope...all the white guy has to do to beat a hate crime rap, is not use any antigay langauge while he's committing the crime.

So...someone should be punished for their speech?

yup....never was about equal rights...it's about silencing those who disagree with you.

What? This is not about a simple disagreement or even name calling. This law is about someone killing, maiming or otherwise injuring someone simply because they have a different sexual preference. How are you guys getting to the point where suddenly the person fucking someone up for being gay is the victim?

You are still free to call someone a fag. Just try to resist the urge to kill him after wards or during and you'll be fine

Posted: 4/29/2009 1:51:36 PM EDT

[#45]

Quoted:
People railing against the concept of "hate crime" without having any idea what the reasoning is behind the legislation is funny.

To address your concerns. If a group of dragqueens beats you down with their purses and stomps on you with their high heels and they call you "jesus freak" while doing it, yes, you can in fact press to have hate crime legislation used against them as "religion" is specifically included in the legislation.

Does anyone want to know the nature of what a "hate crime" entails and why it's more harshly punished or do you want to keep having an circle jerk thread?

But I wouldn't press for hate crime charges, because I believe in equal protection under the law.

Posted: 4/29/2009 1:53:55 PM EDT

[#46]

Quoted:

Quoted:
Lord help the next white guy that beats up a gay black guy over anything... He will be punished "extra extra" special.

Nope...all the white guy has to do to beat a hate crime rap, is not use any antigay langauge while he's committing the crime.

So...someone should be punished for their speech?

It's not speech...but intention of attack. You can call someone a fag all you want, you just can't call them a fag while your kicking their ass.

ahhh...the truth slips out......we'll toss you in prison for intent.

Ummm actually intent has always been a major part of our judicial system.

Posted: 4/29/2009 1:58:36 PM EDT

[#47]

Quoted:

Quoted:
So you're ok with certain groups of people having special rights for them?

So you, a plain white guy gets mugged; ticket and a fine for the perp.

Homo guy gets mugged; life in prision for perp.

Kinda sounds familiar.

Allah Akbar!!!!!

Actually it general works like this..

Your a gay____ and you get beat half to death by 4-5 guys that sat outside of a gay bar. And while you're telling your story to the police..they are making crude comments about fags and AIDS and so forth. Then when you press charges against the guys who beat up up...you get told that they are saying YOU tried to rape them and they where just defending themselves. Then you get to go to court ( if it goes to court) and have your sex life for the last 10 yrs laid out for the jury full of str8s.....Then if you get a conviction...and thats a big if the conervative judge gives your attackers a fine and many some probation.

So your solution to ignorance, corruption, and lying is to simply tip the system in your favor to counter it rather than address the corruption, ignorance, and lies? I contend that quick fix has unintended consequences that will adversely affect you, even. Why don't we find a better solution?

Feel free to correct me if you feel my interpretation is off the mark.

Posted: 4/29/2009 2:00:15 PM EDT

[#48]

Chill out with the blame game guys, I'm trying to accomp
lish something here.

ETA I was busy replying to things on page 2....now I'm just talking to myself.

Posted: 4/29/2009 2:02:57 PM EDT

[#49]

Quoted:

Quoted:

I think we as a people should be seeking to ensure that we get past attacking people based on bigotry.

That would be nice, but it would require everyone to adhere to the same definition and understanding of bigotry. Who gets to define and establish what counts as bigotry and what doesn't?

I'm pretty even handed, sign me up.

Also, what about criminal attacks that aren't based on bigotry? Are those attacks OK?

That's obviously not a serious question but there's no real point behind it either that I can discern.

Posted: 4/29/2009 2:05:06 PM EDT

[#50]

Quoted:
This law can be construed to protect all alternative sexual preferences, including pedophilia, and necrophilia; in fact the legislature voted down an amendment that would have excluded pedophiles from protection under the hate crimes bill.

Do you have a source for this? I have NEVER heard of this before. I have never heard pedophiles trying to be a protected group. I looked this up and all I could find are various people writing blogs or articles basically saying that well pedophilia could be construed as a sexual preference so this would protect them too...

Sorry that ain't good enough that is just a supposition designed to make this a more explosive issue.

So if you would be so kind can you cite a legit source that shows there was a proposed amendment to exclude pedophiles from the protection but it was shot down because the politician(s) felt pedophilia is sexual preference and should be protected and that it WASN'T shot down because no one believed that pedophiles found any type of protection whatsoever under this legislation.

That would seem more logical. I can't fathom the idea that a politician would get this amendment dropped because he or she felt pedophiles deserved the same protection. I mean that politician(s) would instantly ruintheir political career.

[ARCHIVED THREAD] - Anti gay bashing/Hate crime bill expected to pass today. (Page 3 of 5)

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