Afghans get the M-16A2 - Page 2

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[ARCHIVED THREAD] - Afghans get the M-16A2 (Page 2 of 2)

Posted: 4/16/2008 12:47:48 PM EDT

[#1]

Quoted:

Quoted:
The IMI Galil might be a better choice for their environment. Yes, I just went there.

Would they use it given that where it originates?

Probably not. So they'd have to go with the Valmet or the FNC. Or the SIG 550 series.

I think the Sig might be a bit too pricey for them, but the FNC might be a good choice. I think Norway is switching to the 416 so there might be plenty available soon.

Posted: 4/16/2008 12:50:48 PM EDT

[#2]

Quoted:

I think the Sig might be a bit too pricey for them, but the FNC might be a good choice. I think Norway is switching to the 416 so there might be plenty available soon.

Norwegians approved the purchase of HK 416s back in March or April 2007.

Posted: 4/16/2008 12:55:45 PM EDT

[#3]

hmmm, our A2/A3's are being DX'd..... that is one mystery solved.

Posted: 4/16/2008 12:59:34 PM EDT

[#4]

Quoted:
hmmm, our A2/A3's are being DX'd..... that is one mystery solved.

In favor of A4's ? IIRC, the A3 never saw much in way of actual military use, as it is really an A2 with full auto capability instead of 3 round burst.

I was wondering if this info on Wikipedia was correct:

M16A3
The M16A3 was a fully-automatic variant of the M16A2 adopted in small numbers around the time of the introduction of the M16A2, primarily by the U.S. Navy for use by SEAL, SeaBee, and Security units.[11] It features a Safe-Semi-Auto (S-1-F) trigger group like that of the M16A1.
Some confusion continues to exist regarding the M16A3. It is often described as the fully-automatic version of the M16A4. Descriptions of the M16A3 that claim that it shares the M16A4's Picatinny rail are incorrect. This misunderstanding most likely stems from the usage of the A2 and A3 designations by Colt and other manufacturers of weapons before the official adoption of the M16A4. Many manufacturers of civilian AR15 rifles designate variants with flat top confirmations as "A3" rather than "A4." Colt used the "A3" designation in the hopes of winning military contracts as they also did with the terms, "M4" and "M5."

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M16_rifle#M16A3

Posted: 4/16/2008 1:07:08 PM EDT

[#5]

Quoted:

Quoted:
Apparentally the M16 is a poor weapon for the mountains of Afghanistan. The long range and windy conditions don't lend well to the accuracy of a 62 grain bullet.

Yeah, so firing that 7.62x39 cartridge at long ranges in windy conditions from an AK is a huge improvement on accuracy

. Thinking before writing is a good idea.

Most of these fuckers cant hit shit at 50 meters so is there really a point in giving them anything but an AK? AK-74 would have been a better fit in this case.

and you know this how? If i was given an M16 and told "do good things" like their military training used to be, i'd be just as shitty a shot. However I was trained properly and am an Expert marksman. It's all training, and anyone who thinks Haj can't learn to shoot cuz he's some dumb Haj is spouting off some stupid and racist shit. Of COURSE anyone can be trained to be a good marksman by US soldiers, so why would you say something stupid like theres no point in giving them an accurate weapon.

Whats the point in discussion if you just call everyone a racist?

If you're saying that they can't shoot well because they're Afghanis, it IS racist. If you're saying they can't shoot well cuz they haven't been trained, DUH, obviously they're going to be trained how to shoot, it even says so in the terrible article.

And i didn't call everyone a racist, i said that is some dumb racist shit to say if thats the way it was meant.

Posted: 4/16/2008 1:11:49 PM EDT

[#6]

Quoted:

Quoted:
Apparentally the M16 is a poor weapon for the mountains of Afghanistan. The long range and windy conditions don't lend well to the accuracy of a 62 grain bullet.

Yeah, so firing that 7.62x39 cartridge at long ranges in windy conditions from an AK is a huge improvement on accuracy

. Thinking before writing is a good idea.

Most of these fuckers cant hit shit at 50 meters so is there really a point in giving them anything but an AK? AK-74 would have been a better fit in this case.

and you know this how? If i was given an M16 and told "do good things" like their military training used to be, i'd be just as shitty a shot. However I was trained properly and am an Expert marksman. It's all training, and anyone who thinks Haj can't learn to shoot cuz he's some dumb Haj is spouting off some stupid and racist shit. Of COURSE anyone can be trained to be a good marksman by US soldiers, so why would you say something stupid like theres no point in giving them an accurate weapon.

Whats the point in discussion if you just call everyone a racist?

If you're saying that they can't shoot well because they're Afghanis, it IS racist. If you're saying they can't shoot well cuz they haven't been trained, DUH, obviously they're going to be trained how to shoot, it even says so in the terrible article.

And i didn't call everyone a racist, i said that is some dumb racist shit to say if thats the way it was meant.

I think that's the key right there. No matter what rifle they end up with, they have to be trained.

ETA

Why wait to train them until the do get M16's though? Wouldn't that skew the results to make it appear the M16 was far supperiour, even though it was probably the training that made the biggest difference?

Posted: 4/16/2008 1:53:28 PM EDT

[#7]

I don't think we have to worry about the M16 falling into the hands of the bad guys. They believe all the non-sense about how terrible "unreliable" the m16 is and they probably think their 7.62x39 is a much better round. The afghan troops are good folks, I don't think we'll ever have to fight them. They hate Al-Qaeda and the Taliban just as much as we do, they were oppressed by them and don't want them back.

M16A2 = Fixed carrying handle and regular handguards
M16A3 = Flat top and m16a2 handguards
M16A4 = Flattop AND rail system
All 3 rifles, M16a2, a3 and a4 fire burst and do NOT fire in full auto.

Posted: 4/16/2008 1:56:16 PM EDT

[#8]

Quoted:

Quoted:
Apparentally the M16 is a poor weapon for the mountains of Afghanistan. The long range and windy conditions don't lend well to the accuracy of a 62 grain bullet.

Yeah, so firing that 7.62x39 cartridge at long ranges in windy conditions from an AK is a huge improvement on accuracy

. Thinking before writing is a good idea.

Most of these fuckers cant hit shit at 50 meters so is there really a point in giving them anything but an AK? AK-74 would have been a better fit in this case.

and you know this how? If i was given an M16 and told "do good things" like their military training used to be, i'd be just as shitty a shot. However I was trained properly and am an Expert marksman. It's all training, and anyone who thinks Haj can't learn to shoot cuz he's some dumb Haj is spouting off some stupid and racist shit. Of COURSE anyone can be trained to be a good marksman by US soldiers, so why would you say something stupid like theres no point in giving them an accurate weapon.

Whats the point in discussion if you just call everyone a racist?

If you're saying that they can't shoot well because they're Afghanis, it IS racist. If you're saying they can't shoot well cuz they haven't been trained, DUH, obviously they're going to be trained how to shoot, it even says so in the terrible article.

And i didn't call everyone a racist, i said that is some dumb racist shit to say if thats the way it was meant.

I think that's the key right there. No matter what rifle they end up with, they have to be trained.

ETA

Why wait to train them until the do get M16's though? Wouldn't that skew the results to make it appear the M16 was far supperiour, even though it was probably the training that made the biggest difference?

Hard to train someone how to shoot when their rifle can hit the broad side of the barn you know...

Posted: 4/16/2008 1:57:11 PM EDT

[#9]

Quoted:

Quoted:
most of these guys can barely read and we're giving them a more complex rifle to take care of.....great idea.

My eight year old God daughter has no trouble cleaning and maintaining an AR.
(Goddaughter? God-daughter?)

Of course, she's a better shot them most afgans as well.

You do understand that many afghans are skilled hunters right?

If they don't get a kill, they don't eat.

Posted: 4/16/2008 1:59:07 PM EDT

[#10]

Quoted:

Quoted:
Apparentally the M16 is a poor weapon for the mountains of Afghanistan. The long range and windy conditions don't lend well to the accuracy of a 62 grain bullet.

Yeah, so firing that 7.62x39 cartridge at long ranges in windy conditions from an AK is a huge improvement on accuracy

. Thinking before writing is a good idea.

Most of these fuckers cant hit shit at 50 meters so is there really a point in giving them anything but an AK? AK-74 would have been a better fit in this case.

Posted: 4/16/2008 1:59:29 PM EDT

[#11]

Quoted:
Just wait until those fancy new M16's fall into our enemies hands.

Since when has it been difficult for your 'enemies' to purchase M-16?

Posted: 4/16/2008 2:03:19 PM EDT

[#12]

I would think an AK74 would be better for the ANA. Just because they have used the AK47 weapon system for so long, it would be less of a headache and less time consuming for them to get used to the AK74, plus it is more accurate than the AK47 and is cheaper than an m16.

Posted: 4/16/2008 2:04:20 PM EDT

[#13]

It's hard to imagine an easier weapon system to train on-our non combat arms BW partner unit in Germany had a bunch of people qualify expert on their first try after zeroing.

Posted: 4/16/2008 2:07:07 PM EDT

[#14]

So according to the ARFCOM percieved wisdom, the M-16 is unsuitable for 3rd world countries?

Seems to be some very sandy and not so up market countries in this list of M-16 users that seem to get by just fine with them……

Afghanistan
Argentina
Australia
Bahamas
Bangladesh
Bahrain
Barbados
Belize
Bolivia
Brazil (M16A2, Brazilian Marine Corps)
Botswana
Bosnia and Herzegovina
Brunei
Cambodia
Cameroon
Canada (Diemaco C7 Rifle)
Chile
Colombia
Costa Rica
Denmark
Dominican Republic
Egypt
Estonia
El Salvador
Fiji
France
Ghana
Greece
Grenada
Haiti
Honduras
Hungary
India (M16A2, special forces only)
Indonesia
Iraq (M16A4 (Army), M4 (special forces only))
Ireland
Israel
Italy (M4, special forces only)
Japan
Jordan
Jamaica
Kuwait
Latvia
Lebanon
Lesotho
Liberia
Liechtenstein
Maldives
Malaysia
Mexico
Morocco
Nepal
New Zealand
Norway
Laos
Nigeria
Netherlands
Oman
Pakistan
Panama
Philippines
Poland (M4, special forces only)
Portugal
Qatar
Saudi Arabia
Singapore
South Korea
Sri Lanka
Republic of China
Rhodesia
Thailand
Timor-Leste
Tunisia
Turkey
United Arab Emirates
United Kingdom (special forces only)
Uruguay
Vietnam
Venezuela
Zaire

Posted: 4/16/2008 2:16:11 PM EDT

[#15]

+1 to all that has been said. But I also think that Afghani gunsmiths are fully capable of filing down the sear, which for you neophytes is that shoulder thing that goes up, so that the M16 will be able to fire full-automatic.

Seriously though, the Afghans do have a long tradition of gunsmithing by hand, and can do amazing things with some very rough equipment. I'm curious to see what they come up with... bolt carriers made of brass, wooden collapsing stocks, uppers made of old SovBloc car parts...

Posted: 4/16/2008 2:21:28 PM EDT

[#16]

POST #1000 WOOT

Posted: 4/16/2008 2:25:23 PM EDT

[#17]

Wow, the stupid in this thread is strong.

Just because they're afghanis they can't shoot? Last I checked that society does not have processed food and needs to hunt to survive. They can't be trained b/c they're a bunch of haji's??

I wouldn't exactly call the kids in our army the brightest of the bright. Just because they grew up without running water does not mean they're worthless. The fact that they're willing to listen and try is good enough.

And people wonder why Americans are arrogant.

Posted: 4/16/2008 2:30:27 PM EDT

[#18]

If I was a liberated afghani....I'd want a scoped FAL duracoated in red white & blue....

But then again, I'm not a liberated afghani so I'll just spew nonsense like the rest of you.

Posted: 4/16/2008 2:42:24 PM EDT

[#19]

Imagine how much it would stink to tote around a rifle get gets dumped in diesel.

Posted: 4/16/2008 2:45:53 PM EDT

[#20]

Quoted:

Quoted:
Jesus people calm down.

Its not hard to actually train them let alone train them how to clean a weapon.

And you really think they will clean them as religously as our soldiers would?

What's the cost for upgrading to the M16 platform? Are the benefits large enough to justify that cost?

Relax. They're Colts; they'll NEVER jam.

Posted: 4/16/2008 2:55:40 PM EDT

[#21]

What's the weight difference for an M16 loadout compared to an AK47 loadout? Every pound less has to be an advantage when the topo lines are all bunched together.

Posted: 4/16/2008 3:00:59 PM EDT

[#22]

Now I know some of you tactical commandos believe that small-arms are the beginning and end of warfare.

But reality dictates otherwise, unconventional tactics like indirect fire attacks, suicide bombings and roadside bombs and other unconventional tactics pose more of a threat than small-arms ever will.

They're not fighting to win this war militarily, they are incapable of winning this war militarily, their true goal is to prolong the war as long as possible in hopes that we will just give up and walk away.

That is the nature of an insurgency.

On top of that, ask yourselves this: Why would the Taliban toss aside their AKs for a weapon they are unfamiliar with, cannot get spare parts for, which magazines will be more or less completely unavailable for and ammunition that is rare compared to 7.62x39 in the region?

How would this benefit them?

Posted: 4/16/2008 3:03:59 PM EDT

[#23]

Quoted:

Quoted:
The IMI Galil might be a better choice for their environment. Yes, I just went there.

Would they use it given that where it originates?

Probably not. So they'd have to go with the Valmet or the FNC. Or the SIG 550 series.

I think the Sig might be a bit too pricey for them, but the FNC might be a good choice. I think Norway is switching to the 416 so there might be plenty available soon.

The 416's arrived from HK this week, but there are hardly any FNC's in Norway. Sweden has lots of them though.

Posted: 4/16/2008 3:06:51 PM EDT

[#24]

I think that after some time has passed and the more perceptive Afghan soldiers learn to shoot for accuracy rather than spray and pray, they will come to appreciate the benefits of
MARKSMANSHIP and the superiority of the M16 to the AK-47 in this regard.

It might not be a bad idea to turn it into a game of sorts: Only those who achieve expert
marksman will be issued the M16 for use in the field.

CJ

Posted: 4/16/2008 3:07:17 PM EDT

[#25]

We should save all the AK's captured and give them to the Afghan's.

Posted: 4/16/2008 3:10:19 PM EDT

[#26]

Quoted:

Quoted:
Just wait until those fancy new M16's fall into our enemies hands.

Since when has it been difficult for your 'enemies' to purchase M-16?

+1

Just because Colt is twitchy about selling its "evil" rifles to non-LEO/.gov in the states, doesn't mean they don't give a rats' ass who else gets their hands on them.

You'll notice that our Swiss Arfcommers are toting (real) M16A2s and M4s, not "Target HBARs"

Posted: 4/16/2008 3:25:34 PM EDT

[#27]

Quoted:
We should save all the AK's captured and give them to the Afghan's.

Fuck them, ship em back here as parts kits!

Posted: 4/16/2008 3:25:41 PM EDT

[#28]

That is a smart move. Training an allied army to go with aimed fire instead of spray and pray is smart. Anyone who knows what they are talking about realizes the M-16 is a superior weapon to the AK. Sure you have to maintain the rifle, but you can actually hit what you are aiming at.

Posted: 4/16/2008 3:31:12 PM EDT

[#29]

For the naysayers, I worked closely with the ANA. They will do just fine with the new rifles. They are capable of shooting and shooting well when given a weapon that can do so.

They will maintain them just fine.

Posted: 4/16/2008 3:34:06 PM EDT

[#30]

Dupe

Posted: 4/16/2008 3:54:33 PM EDT

[#31]

Quoted:
For the naysayers, I worked closely with the ANA. They will do just fine with the new rifles. They are capable of shooting and shooting well when given a weapon that can do so.

They will maintain them just fine.

Exactly what I was saying. Rusted Ace pointed out in the AK forums about the 20 year old AKs that need a new barrel, 4 barrels ago, still being used by the ANA.

You train them to clean, maintain, and fire the weapon and they will do awesome.

Posted: 4/16/2008 4:12:42 PM EDT

[#32]

Quoted:
Just wait until those fancy new M16's fall into our enemies hands.

Maintnance, Maintnance, Maintnance

[ARCHIVED THREAD] - Afghans get the M-16A2 (Page 2 of 2)

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