Abortion and the death penalty - Page 2

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Posted: 12/21/2005 10:17:17 PM EDT

[#1]

Get Both

Posted: 12/21/2005 10:29:57 PM EDT

[#2]

Quoted:
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That said, until science comes up with a really ironclad definition of when "life" begins, this will be a real problem.

Life unqestionably begins at conception. At least a new life.
The socialists might not like that being told but it is a fact. They do so like deluding the rest of you with their drivel however.

drj MD

Care to elaborate or support with facts........at conception all they are are two cells......all (living cells) are lets say alive....do we give all the rights we give to humans to living cells.....no, that would be ridiculous. Early abortion is not murder like everyone says, its not even a baby. IMO---and science

No, at conception it is one cell, a zygote and is a new life.
You can draw whatever artificial line you want calling it one thing or another to diminish its worth and dehumanize the baby, but it is just terminology.

The question was when life begins. That is clearcut and obvious to anyone who knows anything about human biology or medicine other than what they found in some socialist pamphlet advocating the murder of your children.

Support it with facts?
Pull your head out of your ass and read a fucking book. You retards like to tell me I am condescending or act intellectually superior, etc but talking to some of you is like watching a white mouse blunder its way thru a maze trying to find the cheese.

I'll give you a piece of advice: Before you come on GD and flap your hole like some of the other retards around here maybe you should actually look into something before you come here and run your mouth. That goes for plenty of you jackasses BTW and is not exclusive to this thread by any means. I don't say something here unless I am pretty damn sure I am right. Not 100% but pretty damn close. If I don't know I either look it up or shut my mouth.

A zygote is ONE CEEEEEEEEELLLLLLLLL............not a human and should not be subject to human rights.....so you sir shut your mouth....Yes it is considered to be the begining of a humanm but is not considered to be a child or baby that is ALIVE. Life for humans is considered to be brain activity along with but not limited to a heart beat.....a zygote has neither....but you read so im sure you already knew that.

I am afraid sir, that you suffer from terminal and incurable idiocy. There is nothing more I can do for you. I would send you to a specialist but there is nothing they could do either as you are a hopeless case. If you insist on trying something I would steer you away from faith healing, miracle cures, or even colloidal silver but you might try actually educating yourself. It would take a Helluva lot of effort and dedication at this point, given how far gone you are, and I can guarantee nothing with that in consideration, but it might be worth the effort to you personally. If nothing else, perhaps you might meet your maker with an IQ over 78 thereby preventing considerable consternation on his part(never a good thing) in trying to get his points across to you but, once again, I am afraid your case is a hopeless one.

Nice argument....I am convinced....BTW...I will match wits with you any day....Have you ever taken a science class......Jr high level will do?

You already tried matching wits with me and came up short.
I imagine the last girl you felt up in your father's back seat felt the same.

3 yrs Bio, 2 yrs Chem, 1 yr Physics in HS
BS in Microbiology and Chemistry in College
4 years of medical school which included DEVELOPMENTAL BIOLOGY

I've delivered about 100 babies.

Quit wasting my time.

Then you already know that I am right.......With the definition of life and all.....YOUR thoughts are not what counts when it comes to the definition of life.....obviously you havent learned a thing

B.S Chemistry---Colorado State University

Posted: 12/21/2005 10:59:12 PM EDT

[#3]

I support the detah penalty and I alos support abortion rights to some degree. If a woman is raped or a victim of incest, or pregnant by some other tramatic means than abortion is okay. why would want a child born out of rape. But abortion as a form of birth control, I do not agree with. The day is fast approching when there will be home abortion kits on the shelves of wally world.

Posted: 12/22/2005 12:40:20 AM EDT

[#4]

I cannot accept abortion for any reason. I do not feel that even saving the life of the mother justifies murdering a child. For a person with any faith if you are in a position where you must murder an innocent child or lose your life it would seem obvious what Gos askes of you. "For what greater love then this, that a man should lay down his life for a friend." (I am sure I didn't get it exactly correct.)

Certainly NO DOCTOR can in good consciense perform an abortion. "DO NO HARM" except when you feel like it or are getting paid for it or ..........

Abortion is a great example of the strong lording it over the week. If I took my (insert weapon of choice) out and killed someone because they had what I wanted it would be murder. If we want to keep abortion legal maybe we should change the laws so strong people can just take what they want from everyone else.

By the way. The Orthodox Church takes a prety firm stance on abortion. The Church says if a woman has an abortion she cannot receive communion for 7 years.

BTW if my daughter was pregnant and a teen I WOULD want her to carry the child. If my wife was pregnant with annother mans child I WOULD want her to carry the child. That would show strength that I could respect.

If my extreemism bothers you then you are also an extreemist only in the opposite direction. Did it ever occure to you people who support abortion that that us JUST AS EXTREEM A POSITION as not supporting it?

We did not "plan" any of our 3 children and I thank God for that. If we had followed what we wanted we wouldn't have any children yet. I cannot imagine what my life would be like without Dora and Petie and (Ruth/Herman) who is due in June.

God bless all of you who do your duty and care for those you have been given and may those who support murder for your own selfishness be foregiven.

Josh (aka Knifemaker)

Posted: 12/22/2005 3:44:39 AM EDT

[#5]

Quoted:
And then what happens why therights of one individual clashes with another? To grant the right to life to one may be to deny the right of happiness to another.
Or more to the point, to grant the right of life to one may be to deny the right of life to the other.

So, when the rights of one clash with another, how do we choose?

NOW we get to the meat of the matter.
This is not just about the rights of the woman being enslaved by a nonviable mass of tissue, nor is it about evil white men controlling women. It also is not about religious fanatics trying to force their hypocritical views on others.
Any honest person will acknowledge that there is an unanswered question here.
The hierarchy of rights shown in the DofI shows a priority on the right to/of life, with liberty and the pursuit of happiness following.
In my personal interpretation, prolife is not always antiabortion. The choice can be made to abort when the baby's quality of life will be low or he'she will be completely dependant upon others its entire life.
You will also note that I treat as two seperate issues life, and quality of life. A severely handicapped person completely dependant upon others is still a life. Acknowledge that and then make the decision on how far you are willing to play God.
No matter what, with this level of technology, you are playing God.
I also notice that many people have managed to introduce a new concept into this debate: that of personhood. There isn't really an actual definition of personhood, but this is an idea that many people bat around as if it is accepted scientific fact.

Posted: 12/22/2005 5:23:17 AM EDT

[#6]

Quoted:
A tubal, or ectopic prenancy, is not viable and has NO chance for survival. It can also kill the mother. Entirely different ballgame.

I do advocate abortion for rape, LIFE of the mother, or for some birth defects. But ya know, I have never had a woman come in and tell me ANY of these were the case. Sure they occur but are a tiny minority of the convenience abortions done.
If it were ever restricted to those things there would be 2 million rapes resulting in pregnancy yearly.

This the line I give libs when they bring this stuff up:

I am not opposed to abortion for those reasons, but you people will not restrict it to that, so if my only choices are between 1 million abortions a year or none, I choose none.

Bullshit its an entirely different ballgame. Its a life isnt it? Or will you deny the fact that the fetus suddenly isnt a life anymore becuase of, say, some genetic condition?
See, and heres where it pisses me off. People want to say "Oh *huff huff huff* I'm pro life *huff huff huff*" then turn right the fuck around and say "except". It also pisses me off that people (Much like yourself) would bring into this world babies with horrible genetic disorders, or force a mother to carry through a child which most likely may kill her.

Far as I see it, it means you dont give a damn about life one way or theother, you only care about your talking point. Its especially sickening to see a DOCTOR tell me he doesnt value a human life.
Least you get paid well though right?

Posted: 12/22/2005 5:26:56 AM EDT

[#7]

Quoted:
I cannot accept abortion for any reason. I do not feel that even saving the life of the mother justifies murdering a child. For a person with any faith if you are in a position where you must murder an innocent child or lose your life it would seem obvious what Gos askes of you. "For what greater love then this, that a man should lay down his life for a friend." (I am sure I didn't get it exactly correct.)

Certainly NO DOCTOR can in good consciense perform an abortion. "DO NO HARM" except when you feel like it or are getting paid for it or ..........

Abortion is a great example of the strong lording it over the week. If I took my (insert weapon of choice) out and killed someone because they had what I wanted it would be murder. If we want to keep abortion legal maybe we should change the laws so strong people can just take what they want from everyone else.

By the way. The Orthodox Church takes a prety firm stance on abortion. The Church says if a woman has an abortion she cannot receive communion for 7 years.

BTW if my daughter was pregnant and a teen I WOULD want her to carry the child. If my wife was pregnant with annother mans child I WOULD want her to carry the child. That would show strength that I could respect.

If my extreemism bothers you then you are also an extreemist only in the opposite direction. Did it ever occure to you people who support abortion that that us JUST AS EXTREEM A POSITION as not supporting it?

We did not "plan" any of our 3 children and I thank God for that. If we had followed what we wanted we wouldn't have any children yet. I cannot imagine what my life would be like without Dora and Petie and (Ruth/Herman) who is due in June.

God bless all of you who do your duty and care for those you have been given and may those who support murder for your own selfishness be foregiven.

Josh (aka Knifemaker)

First off this religion shit is disgusting. I thought the Lord said "Let he without sin" and also something along thelines of "Vengeance is mine" as well as "do not judge"

Nice, you'll completely disregard what the Lord saysif you cant use itto puch your personal agenda.

Thats mighty religious of you.

Posted: 12/22/2005 5:36:39 AM EDT

[#8]

Quoted:
Quoted:
And then what happens why therights of one individual clashes with another? To grant the right to life to one may be to deny the right of happiness to another.
Or more to the point, to grant the right of life to one may be to deny the right of life to the other.

So, when the rights of one clash with another, how do we choose?
NOW we get to the meat of the matter.
This is not just about the rights of the woman being enslaved by a nonviable mass of tissue, nor is it about evil white men controlling women. It also is not about religious fanatics trying to force their hypocritical views on others.
Any honest person will acknowledge that there is an unanswered question here.
The hierarchy of rights shown in the DofI shows a priority on the right to/of life, with liberty and the pursuit of happiness following.
In my personal interpretation, prolife is not always antiabortion. The choice can be made to abort when the baby's quality of life will be low or he'she will be completely dependant upon others its entire life.
You will also note that I treat as two seperate issues life, and quality of life. A severely handicapped person completely dependant upon others is still a life. Acknowledge that and then make the decision on how far you are willing to play God.
No matter what, with this level of technology, you are playing God.
I also notice that many people have managed to introduce a new concept into this debate: that of personhood. There isn't really an actual definition of personhood, but this is an idea that many people bat around as if it is accepted scientific fact.

What did you just say?? Your kidding me right?

Pro-Life
Main Entry: pro-life
Pronunciation: (")prO-'lIf
Function: adjective
: ANTIABORTION
- pro-lif·er /-'lI-f&r/ noun

Antiabortion
Main Entry: an·ti·abor·tion
Pronunciation: "an-tE-&-'bor-sh&n, "an-"tI-
Function: adjective
: opposed to abortion <antiabortion lobbyists>
- an·ti·abor·tion·ist /-sh(&-)nist/ noun

So, Pro Life by definition means opposed to abortion and your going to tell me that you can be Pro Life and support abortion??

No.

Your either Pro life or Pro Choice. There is no Pro Life except, if and or but.

Posted: 12/22/2005 6:40:07 AM EDT

[#9]

I personally support the death penalty after all the appeals are exhausted.

I also support abortion in a case by case basis.

Posted: 12/22/2005 7:26:14 AM EDT

[#10]

Quoted:
Quoted:
I cannot accept abortion for any reason. I do not feel that even saving the life of the mother justifies murdering a child. For a person with any faith if you are in a position where you must murder an innocent child or lose your life it would seem obvious what Gos askes of you. "For what greater love then this, that a man should lay down his life for a friend." (I am sure I didn't get it exactly correct.)

Certainly NO DOCTOR can in good consciense perform an abortion. "DO NO HARM" except when you feel like it or are getting paid for it or ..........

Abortion is a great example of the strong lording it over the week. If I took my (insert weapon of choice) out and killed someone because they had what I wanted it would be murder. If we want to keep abortion legal maybe we should change the laws so strong people can just take what they want from everyone else.

By the way. The Orthodox Church takes a prety firm stance on abortion. The Church says if a woman has an abortion she cannot receive communion for 7 years.

BTW if my daughter was pregnant and a teen I WOULD want her to carry the child. If my wife was pregnant with annother mans child I WOULD want her to carry the child. That would show strength that I could respect.

If my extreemism bothers you then you are also an extreemist only in the opposite direction. Did it ever occure to you people who support abortion that that us JUST AS EXTREEM A POSITION as not supporting it?

We did not "plan" any of our 3 children and I thank God for that. If we had followed what we wanted we wouldn't have any children yet. I cannot imagine what my life would be like without Dora and Petie and (Ruth/Herman) who is due in June.

God bless all of you who do your duty and care for those you have been given and may those who support murder for your own selfishness be foregiven.

Josh (aka Knifemaker)

First off this religion shit is disgusting. I thought the Lord said "Let he without sin" and also something along thelines of "Vengeance is mine" as well as "do not judge"

Nice, you'll completely disregard what the Lord saysif you cant use itto puch your personal agenda.

Thats mighty religious of you.

Well that's just great.
We get to save billions in tax dollars now. Just empty the prisons. The lord will take care of it all in the next life.

Posted: 12/22/2005 7:32:37 AM EDT

[#11]

Quoted:
Quoted:
A tubal, or ectopic prenancy, is not viable and has NO chance for survival. It can also kill the mother. Entirely different ballgame.

I do advocate abortion for rape, LIFE of the mother, or for some birth defects. But ya know, I have never had a woman come in and tell me ANY of these were the case. Sure they occur but are a tiny minority of the convenience abortions done.
If it were ever restricted to those things there would be 2 million rapes resulting in pregnancy yearly.

This the line I give libs when they bring this stuff up:

I am not opposed to abortion for those reasons, but you people will not restrict it to that, so if my only choices are between 1 million abortions a year or none, I choose none.

Bullshit its an entirely different ballgame. Its a life isnt it? Or will you deny the fact that the fetus suddenly isnt a life anymore becuase of, say, some genetic condition?
See, and heres where it pisses me off. People want to say "Oh *huff huff huff* I'm pro life *huff huff huff*" then turn right the fuck around and say "except". It also pisses me off that people (Much like yourself) would bring into this world babies with horrible genetic disorders, or force a mother to carry through a child which most likely may kill her.

Far as I see it, it means you dont give a damn about life one way or theother, you only care about your talking point. Its especially sickening to see a DOCTOR tell me he doesnt value a human life.
Least you get paid well though right?

Then none. See you're just the kind of person I am talking about here.

I don't get paid near as much as someone who does abortion.
As I said, doing evil pays well.

I also give out emergency contraception. Gonna get pissed about that also. Who fucking cares.

Sure as Hell not me.
We will get Roe v Wade rolled back in the future. Gonna happen. When it does I am going to LMAO at some of you.

There are legit exceptions. You are just pissed no matter what unless everyone agrees with you. You're going to end up on meds before long, if you aren't already. Sad really because deep down I don't think you are probably a bad guy for somone who advocates killing babies by dismemberment.

Posted: 12/22/2005 7:34:22 AM EDT

[#12]

IBTL. I give it 5 pages.

Posted: 12/22/2005 7:40:54 AM EDT

[#13]

Remember what I say:

We will get Roe v Wade rolled back.

Specop_007,
Does that double naught bit give you a "license to kill"?
Just babies apparently.

I remember you going off about "free" healthcare also. Maybe you think that if you kill enough babies there'll be more money for you.

Posted: 12/22/2005 7:46:46 AM EDT

[#14]

Quoted:

Are any of you here old enough or honest enough to admit that even when abortion was illegal it happened on a daily basis here in the US.

Many are not here because of that...

Posted: 12/22/2005 7:49:28 AM EDT

[#15]

Quoted:
I support the detah penalty and I alos support abortion rights to some degree. If a woman is raped or a victim of incest, or pregnant by some other tramatic means than abortion is okay. why would want a child born out of rape. But abortion as a form of birth control, I do not agree with. The day is fast approching when there will be home abortion kits on the shelves of wally world.

How do you prove that a woman was raped within 6 months from conception? Will the trial be speeded up? What about "date rape"? "Marital rape"?

Posted: 12/22/2005 7:50:44 AM EDT

[#16]

Quoted:
damn!

where is the pit when we need it

I believe it was aborted by the children...

Posted: 12/22/2005 7:57:10 AM EDT

[#17]

Quoted:
Remember what I say:

We will get Roe v Wade rolled back.

Specop_007,
Does that double naught bit give you a "license to kill"?
Just babies apparently.

I remember you going off about "free" healthcare also. Maybe you think that if you kill enough babies there'll be more money for you.

Prove it.
I went off about our current system, YOU put words in my mouth to make everyone think i was advocating free healthcare.

Does jarhead give you a license to be a dumbass? Or does it imply your brain is kept elsewhere other then your head?

Posted: 12/22/2005 7:59:00 AM EDT

[#18]

Quoted:

Well that's just great.
We get to save billions in tax dollars now. Just empty the prisons. The lord will take care of it all in the next life.

You missed the point. No suprise.

I'm not the one bringing religion into it. How the fuck you going to stand there and tell me "God sayd killing is bad" and turn right around and forget God says do not judge, let he without sin etc etc etc.

Pretty fucking hypocritical if you ask me. Just goes to show how the religious right are fucking insane (Not implying you).
I personally have nevermet people as hypocritical as religious people. They literally say one thing and do another.

Posted: 12/22/2005 8:01:17 AM EDT

[#19]

Quoted:
Then none. See you're just the kind of person I am talking about here.

I don't get paid near as much as someone who does abortion.
As I said, doing evil pays well.

I also give out emergency contraception. Gonna get pissed about that also. Who fucking cares.
Sure as Hell not me.
We will get Roe v Wade rolled back in the future. Gonna happen. When it does I am going to LMAO at some of you.

There are legit exceptions. You are just pissed no matter what unless everyone agrees with you. You're going to end up on meds before long, if you aren't already. Sad really because deep down I don't think you are probably a bad guy for somone who advocates killing babies by dismemberment.

I'm not mad because people dont disagree with me, I'm mad because people are hypocritical (Religious nutcases) or because people are too fucking stupid to understand the English definition of a word.

There are rare cases where I dont care if your Pro Life. But those cases are people who absolutely, under NO circumstances, can tell me they support abortion AND do not tell me they oppose itbecause of religious reasons.

So, if an atheist says he is Pro life and there is never any case where hewould support an abortion then fine, I'm happy.

So once again you put words in my mouth and jump to conclusions.

Posted: 12/22/2005 8:02:40 AM EDT

[#20]

Quoted:
Quoted:
Remember what I say:

We will get Roe v Wade rolled back.

Specop_007,
Does that double naught bit give you a "license to kill"?
Just babies apparently.

I remember you going off about "free" healthcare also. Maybe you think that if you kill enough babies there'll be more money for you.

Prove it.
I went off about our current system, YOU put words in my mouth to make everyone think i was advocating free healthcare.

Not hardly. Didn't do that or twist your words. I don't have to with you guys, your own words damn you.

Perhaps you only thought it should be free for you then. Bottom line is you thought others should pay for you and people like you.

Let's not hijack this thread though.
The other is still floating around out there so if you wish to clarify you points(LOL) do so there.

Watching you socialists foam at the mouth is just too damn good to screw up.

We will get Roe v Wade rolled back.

Posted: 12/22/2005 8:10:19 AM EDT

[#21]

Quoted:
Quoted:

Well that's just great.
We get to save billions in tax dollars now. Just empty the prisons. The lord will take care of it all in the next life.

You missed the point. No suprise.

No, I got the point just fine. You simply take exception to my retort.

I'm not the one bringing religion into it. How the fuck you going to stand there and tell me "God sayd killing is bad" and turn right around and forget God says do not judge, let he without sin etc etc etc.

Pretty fucking hypocritical if you ask me. Just goes to show how the religious right are fucking insane (Not implying you).
I personally have nevermet people as hypocritical as religious people. They literally say one thing and do another.

I agree with that actually. I have spiritual beliefs but they do not control my every thought. We are intelligent, reasoning creatures.
I don't go to church for a couple of reasons, one of the major ones being what you describe above.

However, opposing abortion can have nothing to do with religion and that is something that most socialists don't want to admit. They just want to foam at the mouth over the christian right and demagogue them. That's how Waco happened.

Posted: 12/22/2005 8:13:52 AM EDT

[#22]

Quoted:
Why do you reject the biological definition of life?

The biological definition of life has no bearing on the legal abortion argument. The whole argument of when life begins is a red herring. People like to argue it, but Roe vs Wade does not hinge on that argument.

Roe vs Wade address that the state does have a compelling interest in preserving "potential life".

Quote from Roe vs Wade Decision

On the basis of elements such as these, appellant and some amici argue that the woman's right is absolute and that she is entitled to terminate her pregnancy at whatever time, in whatever way, and for whatever reason she alone chooses. With this we do not agree. Appellant's arguments that Texas either has no valid interest at all in regulating the abortion decision, or no interest strong enough to support any limitation upon the woman's sole determination, are unpersuasive. The Court's decisions recognizing a right of privacy also acknowledge that some state regulation in areas protected by that right is appropriate. As noted above, a State may properly assert important interests in safeguarding health, in maintaining medical standards, and in protecting potential life. At some point in pregnancy, these respective interests become sufficiently compelling to sustain regulation of the factors that govern the abortion decision. The privacy right involved, therefore, cannot be said to be absolute. [/r]In fact, it is not clear to us that the claim asserted by some amici that one has an unlimited right to do with one's body as one pleases bears a close relationship to the right of privacy previously articulated in the Court's decisions. The Court has refused to recognize an unlimited right of this kind in the past. Jacobson v. Massachusetts, 197 U.S. 11 (1905) (vaccination); Buck v. Bell, 274 U.S. 200 (1927) (sterilization).

Posted: 12/22/2005 8:14:29 AM EDT

[#23]

Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Remember what I say:

We will get Roe v Wade rolled back.

Specop_007,
Does that double naught bit give you a "license to kill"?
Just babies apparently.

I remember you going off about "free" healthcare also. Maybe you think that if you kill enough babies there'll be more money for you.

Prove it.
I went off about our current system, YOU put words in my mouth to make everyone think i was advocating free healthcare.

Not hardly. Didn't do that or twist your words. I don't have to with you guys, your own words damn you.

Perhaps you only thought it should be free for you then. Bottom line is you thought others should pay for you and people like you.

Let's not hijack this thread though.
The other is still floating around out there so if you wish to clarify you points(LOL) do so there.

Watching you socialists foam at the mouth is just too damn good to screw up.

We will get Roe v Wade rolled back.

You cant proveit. My first post in that healthcare thread.

"I have mixed feelings on the issue. I dont think theres a truly right answer."

Yep, definately sounds like I want freehealthcare.

Just proves you put words in my mouth. Isthat how it works, when you cant debate against theperson you just make shit up and tell them thats what they said?
Gotchya.

Posted: 12/22/2005 8:14:35 AM EDT

[#24]

Abortion sickens me but it needs to remain legal, don't like it? Too fucking bad, it's the law (LOL, I hardly ever get to say that), Death penalty - I have no problem with - some people need killing.

My wife got a doctor recommended abortion may years ago, we hated the thought and even got 2 other doctor's opinions - which were the same, even though we have always been pro-choice this really killed us emotionally for many years, but this personal experience showed us how important it is for abortions to remain legal.

Not to mention all the unwanted babies and kids out there already, but I'm sure those you who so violently oppose abortion have your house filled with adopted minority kids that nobody else wanted? If not you're just blowing hot air.

Posted: 12/22/2005 8:15:45 AM EDT

[#25]

Quoted:
I'm not the one bringing religion into it. How the fuck you going to stand there and tell me "God sayd killing is bad" and turn right around and forget God says do not judge, let he without sin etc etc etc.

Pretty fucking hypocritical if you ask me. Just goes to show how the religious right are fucking insane (Not implying you).
I personally have nevermet people as hypocritical as religious people. They literally say one thing and do another.

I agree with that actually. I have spiritual beliefs but they do not control my every thought. We are intelligent, reasoning creatures.
I don't go to church for a couple of reasons, one of the major ones being what you describe above.

However, opposing abortion can have nothing to do with religion and that is something that most socialists don't want to admit. They just want to foam at the mouth over the christian right and demagogue them. That's how Waco happened.

Fair enough. So you understand, MY problem with the religious stance is simply because its such a hypocritical stance to take.

Posted: 12/22/2005 8:16:21 AM EDT

[#26]

Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
In before all the ignorant religious biblethumpe.......errr.....never mind.

in before.. me?

If your Pro-Life, then yes.

count me in with garandman and arowneragain then

another Bible thumper as Specop_007 said

Posted: 12/22/2005 8:21:26 AM EDT

[#27]

Quoted:
Abortion sickens me but it needs to remain legal, don't like it? Too fucking bad, it's the law (LOL, I hardly ever get to say that), Death penalty - I have no problem with - some people need killing.

My wife got a doctor recommended abortion may years ago, we hated the thought and even got 2 other doctor's opinions - which were the same, even though we have always been pro-choice this really killed us emotionally for many years, but this personal experience showed us how important it is for abortions to remain legal.

Not to mention all the unwanted babies and kids out there already, but I'm sure those you who so violently oppose abortion have your house filled with adopted minority kids that nobody else wanted? If not you're just blowing hot air.

Yeah, if we oppose baby killing then we should pay for or raise them ourselves?LOL.
We can just empty the prisons also and keep them in our homes.
Listening to the simple minded blather their logic is about the same as watching some of you stumble your way thru reading a comic book.

Roe v Wade is going to be rolled back. You can count on it because we are not going to stop and socialists keep murdering their offspring. The only ones procreating to any degree out of your bunch are the same ones draining the system and bringing it slowly to its inevitable collapse. So you see, we will have our way, one way or another.

Posted: 12/22/2005 8:24:23 AM EDT

[#28]

Quoted:
Abortion sickens me but it needs to remain legal, don't like it? Too fucking bad, it's the law (LOL, I hardly ever get to say that), Death penalty - I have no problem with - some people need killing.

My wife got a doctor recommended abortion may years ago, we hated the thought and even got 2 other doctor's opinions - which were the same, even though we have always been pro-choice this really killed us emotionally for many years, but this personal experience showed us how important it is for abortions to remain legal.

Not to mention all the unwanted babies and kids out there already, but I'm sure those you who so violently oppose abortion have your house filled with adopted minority kids that nobody else wanted? If not you're just blowing hot air.

That is quite the leap to make about those on the pro life side. Would you like it if someone said you are pro abortion to keep the blacks down in this country?

Posted: 12/22/2005 8:26:34 AM EDT

[#29]

Quoted:
Quoted:
I'm not the one bringing religion into it. How the fuck you going to stand there and tell me "God sayd killing is bad" and turn right around and forget God says do not judge, let he without sin etc etc etc.

Pretty fucking hypocritical if you ask me. Just goes to show how the religious right are fucking insane (Not implying you).
I personally have nevermet people as hypocritical as religious people. They literally say one thing and do another.

I agree with that actually. I have spiritual beliefs but they do not control my every thought. We are intelligent, reasoning creatures.
I don't go to church for a couple of reasons, one of the major ones being what you describe above.

However, opposing abortion can have nothing to do with religion and that is something that most socialists don't want to admit. They just want to foam at the mouth over the christian right and demagogue them. That's how Waco happened.

Fair enough. So you understand, MY problem with the religious stance is simply because its such a hypocritical stance to take.

No, the stance is not hypocritical at all and you should clarify that point.

I simply recognize the extreme degree of hypocrisy that goes on with many church goers, more so than most demographics IMO.

As for the healthcare thread, you take your first sentence and quote when as the thread progressed you made clear your socialist leanings in that regard. Anyone can read it and see for themselves. As I said, if you wish to debate that further, there is already a thread for it.

Posted: 12/22/2005 8:45:10 AM EDT

[#30]

Quoted:
First off this religion shit is disgusting. I thought the Lord said "Let he without sin" and also something along thelines of "Vengeance is mine" as well as "do not judge"

Quoted:
I'm not the one bringing religion into it. How the fuck you going to stand there and tell me "God sayd killing is bad" and turn right around and forget God says do not judge, let he without sin etc etc etc.

Ah, the taken out of context quote that people use to condemn Christians as hypocritical.

In John 8:7 Jesus does say:

'If any one of you is without sin, let him be the first to throw a stone at her."

If you read the previous part of the passage, you would see this:

John 8:5-6

In the Law Moses commanded us to stone such women. Now what do you say?" They were using this question as a trap, in order to have a basis for accusing him.

However, most of those that use John 8:7, conveniently forget the point of the passage. Jesus tell the woman in John 8:11:

"Then neither do I condemn you." Jesus declared. "Go now and leave your life of sin."

You rant out of ignorance which belittles any argument you are making. In the future, you should probably refrain from using any of your misunderstood quotes from the bible. They do little to support your argument.

Posted: 12/22/2005 8:47:44 AM EDT

[#31]

Quoted:
Quoted:
I'm not the one bringing religion into it. How the fuck you going to stand there and tell me "God sayd killing is bad" and turn right around and forget God says do not judge, let he without sin etc etc etc.

Ah, the taken out of context quote that people use to condemn Christians as hypocritical.

In John 8:7 Jesus does say:

'If any one of you is without sin, let him be the first to throw a stone at her."

If you read the previous part of the passage, you would see this:

John 8:5-6
In the Law Moses commanded us to stone such women. Now what do you say?" They were using this question as a trap, in order to have a basis for accusing him.

However, most of those that use John 8:7, conveniently forget the point of the passage. Jesus tell the woman in John 8:11:

"Then neither do I condemn you." Jesus declared. "Go now and leave your life of sin."

You rant out of ignorance which belittles any argument you are making. In the future, you should probably refrain from using any of your misunderstood quotes from the bible. They do little to support your argument.

Well, then I'm impressed. It seems Arfcom has a great number of people who have never once, in their entire lives, commited any sin......

Posted: 12/22/2005 8:50:26 AM EDT

[#32]

Quoted:
No, the stance is not hypocritical at all and you should clarify that point.

I simply recognize the extreme degree of hypocrisy that goes on with many church goers, more so than most demographics IMO.

As for the healthcare thread, you take your first sentence and quote when as the thread progressed you made clear your socialist leanings in that regard. Anyone can read it and see for themselves. As I said, if you wish to debate that further, there is already a thread for it.

Ok, so you admit theres a good degree of hypocrisy in church, but refuse to believe that same religious hypocrisy applies to abortions??

As for the healthcare thread, you still havent manned up. Post the qoute of me saying I want a socialist healthcare system. Otherwise I will assume your just an ignorant ass like most of Arfcom. The conversations generally go.
"Do you support option A?"
"No"
"You fucking Communist!! Your a Socialist!! Move to France!!"

Gee, wonder why I think theres so many dumbasses around here. Seems most of them simply cannot fathom there are options besides A or B. So, when people are unable to realize that what would you have me think? That I'm surrounded by the great thinkers of our time? Please.

So go ahead and find where I specifically stated we need a government run healthcare plan.

Posted: 12/22/2005 8:51:55 AM EDT

[#33]

Quoted:
Well, then I'm impressed. It seems Arfcom has a great number of people who have never once, in their entire lives, commited any sin......

Only Jesus was free from Sin.

The rest of us are broken.

Posted: 12/22/2005 8:55:03 AM EDT

[#34]

Quoted:
Quoted:
No, the stance is not hypocritical at all and you should clarify that point.

I simply recognize the extreme degree of hypocrisy that goes on with many church goers, more so than most demographics IMO.

As for the healthcare thread, you take your first sentence and quote when as the thread progressed you made clear your socialist leanings in that regard. Anyone can read it and see for themselves. As I said, if you wish to debate that further, there is already a thread for it.

Ok, so you admit theres a good degree of hypocrisy in church, but refuse to believe that same religious hypocrisy applies to abortions??

As for the healthcare thread, you still havent manned up. Post the qoute of me saying I want a socialist healthcare system. Otherwise I will assume your just an ignorant ass like most of Arfcom. The conversations generally go.
"Do you support option A?"
"No"
"You fucking Communist!! Your a Socialist!! Move to France!!"

Gee, wonder why I think theres so many dumbasses around here. Seems most of them simply cannot fathom there are options besides A or B. So, when people are unable to realize that what would you have me think? That I'm surrounded by the great thinkers of our time? Please.

So go ahead and find where I specifically stated we need a government run healthcare plan.

Take it up in the socialized med thread.

Posted: 12/22/2005 8:59:57 AM EDT

[#35]

Quoted:
Take it up in the socialized med thread.

Why? I've already made my point, it just seems most are too dense (Or simpleminded) to understand it.
I can argue with a rock all day,doesnt mean I'll get anywhere.

I made it clear I dont like the current system, and thats where it stopped. The simpleminded assumed that meant I want a government ran system. Fair enough. If people are so stupid as to be unable to fathon ANYTHING else besides the current system and a socialized system....Well, I'm not going to wastemy time with stupid people.

Posted: 12/22/2005 9:01:36 AM EDT

[#36]

Quoted:
Quoted:
Well, then I'm impressed. It seems Arfcom has a great number of people who have never once, in their entire lives, commited any sin......

Only Jesus was free from Sin.

The rest of us are broken.

But that doesn't mean we should turn our back on it.

Only good men speaking out, even fighting at times, keeps evil under control.
And that's why all this tolerance and PC, nonconfrontational bullshit is such a big deal to the socialists. It is intrumental in shoving their agenda down our throats. Thanks to the 1st Amend they have to find other ways, such as demagoguery and destroying people's careers. They attempt to force conservatives to live in fear.

Posted: 12/22/2005 9:05:23 AM EDT

[#37]

Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Well, then I'm impressed. It seems Arfcom has a great number of people who have never once, in their entire lives, commited any sin......

Only Jesus was free from Sin.

The rest of us are broken.

But that doesn't mean we should turn our back on it.

Only good men speaking out, even fighting at times, keeps evil under control.
And that's why all this tolerance and PC, nonconfrontational bullshit is such a big deal to the socialists. It is intrumental in shoving their agenda down our throats. Thanks to the 1st Amend they have to find other ways, such as demagoguery and destroying people's careers. They attempt to force conservatives to live in fear.

Of course not. We need to do what we can to keep evil in check where ever it exists.

Posted: 12/22/2005 9:16:56 AM EDT

[#38]

Quoted:
Abortion sickens me but it needs to remain legal, don't like it? Too fucking bad, it's the law (LOL, I hardly ever get to say that), Death penalty - I have no problem with - some people need killing.

My wife got a doctor recommended abortion may years ago, we hated the thought and even got 2 other doctor's opinions - which were the same, even though we have always been pro-choice this really killed us emotionally for many years, but this personal experience showed us how important it is for abortions to remain legal.

If Roe vs Wade is rolled back, there will still be Dr. recommended abortions. In fact, each state will get to decide what kind of abortion is legal. Roe vs Wade is a state's rights issue.

Abortion on demand that is abhorrent.

Not to mention all the unwanted babies and kids out there already, but I'm sure those you who so violently oppose abortion have your house filled with adopted minority kids that nobody else wanted? If not you're just blowing hot air.

You do realize that is a socialist argument. Also, it is hypocritical. Since you support gun rights, should you, personally, be forced to pay the medical bills of gang bangers who shoot themselves?

Posted: 12/22/2005 9:30:33 AM EDT

[#39]

"That said, until science comes up with a really ironclad definition of when "life" begins, this will be a real problem."

Funny. IN VITRO FERTILIZATION works OUT SIDE THE MOTHER'S WOMB precisely because once the sperm fertilizes the egg, a unique human being's life starts! It's not the implantation that starts pregnancy and human life, it's fertilization....which is why the "morning after" pill IS ABORTIFACIENT - it keeps the new human being from implanting in the uterus, thus killing it.

Now we know there is a huge distinction between a sperm and egg and the "fertilized" egg; sperm and eggs don't multiply and become something other than themselves...that's the hint that something new has started with fertilization, hence BIOLOGY 101 shows us conclusively that "human life" as in "a new, unique individual" starts at conception, not 72 hours later or 2 weeks later or 1 trimester later...

That's the science. The pro-abortion crowd are the ones engaging in wishful thinking and thus "blind faith".

Posted: 12/22/2005 9:33:59 AM EDT

[#40]

Again, the legal argument in Roe vs Wade has nothing to do with the definition of when life begins.

See post on Page 3

Posted: 12/22/2005 9:38:45 AM EDT

[#41]

Quoted:
"That said, until science comes up with a really ironclad definition of when "life" begins, this will be a real problem."

Funny. IN VITRO FERTILIZATION works OUT SIDE THE MOTHER'S WOMB precisely because once the sperm fertilizes the egg, a unique human being's life starts! It's not the implantation that starts pregnancy and human life, it's fertilization....which is why the "morning after" pill IS ABORTIFACIENT - it keeps the new human being from implanting in the uterus, thus killing it.

Now we know there is a huge distinction between a sperm and egg and the "fertilized" egg; sperm and eggs don't multiply and become something other than themselves...that's the hint that something new has started with fertilization, hence BIOLOGY 101 shows us conclusively that "human life" as in "a new, unique individual" starts at conception, not 72 hours later or 2 weeks later or 1 trimester later...

That's the science. The pro-abortion crowd are the ones engaging in wishful thinking and thus "blind faith".

Nope. A zygote has no brain activity, thus it is not alive (I mean a human life). Its just a living cell. Something that you kill maybe millions of every day. Yes it is the beggining of a human, but it is no diffrent than any other mammals.

Posted: 12/22/2005 9:47:52 AM EDT

[#42]

Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
And then what happens why therights of one individual clashes with another? To grant the right to life to one may be to deny the right of happiness to another.
Or more to the point, to grant the right of life to one may be to deny the right of life to the other.

So, when the rights of one clash with another, how do we choose?
NOW we get to the meat of the matter.
This is not just about the rights of the woman being enslaved by a nonviable mass of tissue, nor is it about evil white men controlling women. It also is not about religious fanatics trying to force their hypocritical views on others.
Any honest person will acknowledge that there is an unanswered question here.
The hierarchy of rights shown in the DofI shows a priority on the right to/of life, with liberty and the pursuit of happiness following.
In my personal interpretation, prolife is not always antiabortion. The choice can be made to abort when the baby's quality of life will be low or he'she will be completely dependant upon others its entire life.
You will also note that I treat as two seperate issues life, and quality of life. A severely handicapped person completely dependant upon others is still a life. Acknowledge that and then make the decision on how far you are willing to play God.
No matter what, with this level of technology, you are playing God.
I also notice that many people have managed to introduce a new concept into this debate: that of personhood. There isn't really an actual definition of personhood, but this is an idea that many people bat around as if it is accepted scientific fact.

What did you just say?? Your kidding me right?

Pro-Life
Main Entry: pro-life
Pronunciation: (")prO-'lIf
Function: adjective
: ANTIABORTION
- pro-lif·er /-'lI-f&r/ noun

Antiabortion
Main Entry: an·ti·abor·tion
Pronunciation: "an-tE-&-'bor-sh&n, "an-"tI-
Function: adjective
: opposed to abortion <antiabortion lobbyists>
- an·ti·abor·tion·ist /-sh(&-)nist/ noun

So, Pro Life by definition means opposed to abortion and your going to tell me that you can be Pro Life and support abortion??

No.

Your either Pro life or Pro Choice. There is no Pro Life except, if and or but.

You pull out those definitions which totally IGNORE the point that both you and me are talking about..
Specifics, you ask? What about aborting a fetus when it threatens the life of the mother? The mother's life is saved, but that of the unborn child is destroyed. Prolife AND prochoice, or neither?
Your chosen definitions cannot be applied to all relevant situations and still remain valid. We need new definitions that accurately address the issues we are talking about.

Posted: 12/22/2005 9:57:27 AM EDT

[#43]

Quoted:
Quoted:
Why do you reject the biological definition of life?

The biological definition of life has no bearing on the legal abortion argument. The whole argument of when life begins is a red herring. People like to argue it, but Roe vs Wade does not hinge on that argument.

Roe vs Wade address that the state does have a compelling interest in preserving "potential life".

Quote from Roe vs Wade Decision

On the basis of elements such as these, appellant and some amici argue that the woman's right is absolute and that she is entitled to terminate her pregnancy at whatever time, in whatever way, and for whatever reason she alone chooses. With this we do not agree. Appellant's arguments that Texas either has no valid interest at all in regulating the abortion decision, or no interest strong enough to support any limitation upon the woman's sole determination, are unpersuasive. The Court's decisions recognizing a right of privacy also acknowledge that some state regulation in areas protected by that right is appropriate. As noted above, a State may properly assert important interests in safeguarding health, in maintaining medical standards, and in protecting potential life. At some point in pregnancy, these respective interests become sufficiently compelling to sustain regulation of the factors that govern the abortion decision. The privacy right involved, therefore, cannot be said to be absolute. [/r]In fact, it is not clear to us that the claim asserted by some amici that one has an unlimited right to do with one's body as one pleases bears a close relationship to the right of privacy previously articulated in the Court's decisions. The Court has refused to recognize an unlimited right of this kind in the past. Jacobson v. Massachusetts, 197 U.S. 11 (1905) (vaccination); Buck v. Bell, 274 U.S. 200 (1927) (sterilization).

Would it be accurate to say that what RvW terms "potential life" is indeed life, under the biological definition?
If so, we have a legal definition and a scientific one miles apart from each other, which throws a cast iron monkey wrench into any debate of the subject, since the legal asserts one thing and the biological something else.
How can we discuss if we can't even figure out what we're talking about?

Posted: 12/22/2005 9:58:17 AM EDT

[#44]

Quoted:

I am firmly pro choice.

George Orwell died in 1950, but "NewSpeak" lives on. Call it what it is:

pro- infanticide

Posted: 12/22/2005 10:01:18 AM EDT

[#45]

Quoted:
Quoted:
What did you just say?? Your kidding me right?

Pro-Life
Main Entry: pro-life
Pronunciation: (")prO-'lIf
Function: adjective
: ANTIABORTION
- pro-lif·er /-'lI-f&r/ noun

Antiabortion
Main Entry: an·ti·abor·tion
Pronunciation: "an-tE-&-'bor-sh&n, "an-"tI-
Function: adjective
: opposed to abortion <antiabortion lobbyists>
- an·ti·abor·tion·ist /-sh(&-)nist/ noun

So, Pro Life by definition means opposed to abortion and your going to tell me that you can be Pro Life and support abortion??

No.

Your either Pro life or Pro Choice. There is no Pro Life except, if and or but.
You pull out those definitions which totally IGNORE the point that both you and me are talking about..
Specifics, you ask? What about aborting a fetus when it threatens the life of the mother? The mother's life is saved, but that of the unborn child is destroyed. Prolife AND prochoice, or neither?
Your chosen definitions cannot be applied to all relevant situations and still remain valid. We need new definitions that accurately address the issues we are talking about.

You need to take that issue up with Merriam, not me.
I simply use the definition of words as they should be. I also dont speak in ebonics yo.
The textbook definition is very clear. You can play around with them all you want to give yourself a feel good attitude, but it doesnt change the textbook definitions.

And by definition, I am pro choice. I may not necesarily like all the reasons abortion is used, but I wont play around with words to make myself feel better in the morning.

Posted: 12/22/2005 10:01:55 AM EDT

[#46]

Quoted:
Quoted:

I am firmly pro choice.

George Orwell died in 1950, but "NewSpeak" lives on. Call it what it is:

pro- infanticide

Infanticide? Playing with words are we, I never said I supported abortiong every fetus in the world.

Posted: 12/22/2005 10:04:47 AM EDT

[#47]

Homicide is murder. Infanticide is murder.

You are supporting murder, not choice.

Posted: 12/22/2005 10:06:18 AM EDT

[#48]

Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
What did you just say?? Your kidding me right?

Pro-Life
Main Entry: pro-life
Pronunciation: (")prO-'lIf
Function: adjective
: ANTIABORTION
- pro-lif·er /-'lI-f&r/ noun

Antiabortion
Main Entry: an·ti·abor·tion
Pronunciation: "an-tE-&-'bor-sh&n, "an-"tI-
Function: adjective
: opposed to abortion <antiabortion lobbyists>
- an·ti·abor·tion·ist /-sh(&-)nist/ noun

So, Pro Life by definition means opposed to abortion and your going to tell me that you can be Pro Life and support abortion??

No.

Your either Pro life or Pro Choice. There is no Pro Life except, if and or but.
You pull out those definitions which totally IGNORE the point that both you and me are talking about..
Specifics, you ask? What about aborting a fetus when it threatens the life of the mother? The mother's life is saved, but that of the unborn child is destroyed. Prolife AND prochoice, or neither?
Your chosen definitions cannot be applied to all relevant situations and still remain valid. We need new definitions that accurately address the issues we are talking about.

You need to take that issue up with Merriam, not me.
I simply use the definition of words as they should be. I also dont speak in ebonics.
The textbook definition is very clear. You can play around with them all you want to give yourself a feel good attitude, but it doesnt change the textbook definitions.

And by definition, I am pro choice. I may not necesarily like all the reasons abortion is used, but I wont play around with words to make myself feel better in the morning.

No, I'll take it up with you. I try not to use euphemisms. "Prolife" and "prochoice" as you used them are euphemisms. I take them EXACTLY as they are printed. One side is an advocate of preserving life as much as possible and the other side disregards life in favor of choice.
Taking the dictionary definition you cited as proof of fact is a disservice to the range of facts and relevant descriptions involved.

Posted: 12/22/2005 10:10:45 AM EDT

[#49]

Quoted:
Quoted:
Abortion sickens me but it needs to remain legal, don't like it? Too fucking bad, it's the law (LOL, I hardly ever get to say that), Death penalty - I have no problem with - some people need killing.

My wife got a doctor recommended abortion may years ago, we hated the thought and even got 2 other doctor's opinions - which were the same, even though we have always been pro-choice this really killed us emotionally for many years, but this personal experience showed us how important it is for abortions to remain legal.

If Roe vs Wade is rolled back, there will still be Dr. recommended abortions. In fact, each state will get to decide what kind of abortion is legal. Roe vs Wade is a state's rights issue.

Abortion on demand that is abhorrent.

Not to mention all the unwanted babies and kids out there already, but I'm sure those you who so violently oppose abortion have your house filled with adopted minority kids that nobody else wanted? If not you're just blowing hot air.

You do realize that is a socialist argument. Also, it is hypocritical. Since you support gun rights, should you, personally, be forced to pay the medical bills of gang bangers who shoot themselves?

I would hope that the doctor recommended abortions would remain legal even if Roe v s Wade was overturned, but just as gun rights, they take a little at a time til there's nothing left. I don't trust the anti-abortionists (many being over-zealous religious fanatics) any more than I trust the government. I hate unnecessary abortions as much as the next guy but feel it is a necessary evil.

Yeah, thats what I get for posting before my morning coffee, but in reality we're already paying for those unwanted kids and the gang bangers through taxes and high health insurance premiums. Make abortion illegal and we'll have alot more single moms that have their hand in our wallets.

Posted: 12/22/2005 10:45:06 AM EDT

[#50]

Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Abortion sickens me but it needs to remain legal, don't like it? Too fucking bad, it's the law (LOL, I hardly ever get to say that), Death penalty - I have no problem with - some people need killing.

My wife got a doctor recommended abortion may years ago, we hated the thought and even got 2 other doctor's opinions - which were the same, even though we have always been pro-choice this really killed us emotionally for many years, but this personal experience showed us how important it is for abortions to remain legal.

If Roe vs Wade is rolled back, there will still be Dr. recommended abortions. In fact, each state will get to decide what kind of abortion is legal. Roe vs Wade is a state's rights issue.

Abortion on demand that is abhorrent.

Not to mention all the unwanted babies and kids out there already, but I'm sure those you who so violently oppose abortion have your house filled with adopted minority kids that nobody else wanted? If not you're just blowing hot air.

You do realize that is a socialist argument. Also, it is hypocritical. Since you support gun rights, should you, personally, be forced to pay the medical bills of gang bangers who shoot themselves?

I would hope that the doctor recommended abortions would remain legal even if Roe v s Wade was overturned, but just as gun rights, they take a little at a time til there's nothing left. I don't trust the anti-abortionists (many being over-zealous religious fanatics) any more than I trust the government. I hate unnecessary abortions as much as the next guy but feel it is a necessary evil.

Yeah, thats what I get for posting before my morning coffee, but in reality we're already paying for those unwanted kids and the gang bangers through taxes and high health insurance premiums. Make abortion illegal and we'll have alot more single moms that have their hand in our wallets.

So does the ends justify the means? Are you saying it is ok to kill someone because they potentially could be poor and drain resources from society? It sure sounds that way.

What is the difference between saying that abortion is ok because 30 million democrats were aborted and killing those that will never positively contribute to society?

Again, I believe that abortion on demand is abhorrent.

[ARCHIVED THREAD] - Abortion and the death penalty (Page 2 of 3)

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