ATF just left the shop, seizing all AA-12’s due to manufacture markings***edited with atf letter - Page 2

[ARCHIVED THREAD] - ATF just left the shop, seizing all AA-12’s due to manufacture markings***edited with atf letter (Page 2 of 10)

Posted: 8/29/2019 2:03:26 PM EDT

[#1]

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Quoted:
What happens if you refuse to hand them over? Standoff with news choppers? Fine? Sternly worded letter?

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I would imagine, loss of FFL, held at gunpoint (with 500 agents flying in from DC

), thrown in jail.

Posted: 8/29/2019 2:03:40 PM EDT

[#2]

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Quoted:
I know nothing about them. Is the the AA12 that's being discussed?

http://media.moddb.com/cache/images/groups/1/2/1312/thumb_620x2000/us20marine20firing20aa-1220full-auto20shotgun2028aa1220machine20shotgun29.1.jpg

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Correct.

Posted: 8/29/2019 2:03:44 PM EDT

[#3]

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Quoted:
Sounds like they didn't go "door to door," but, "gun dealer to gun dealer," which is not the same as if they went into my "neighborhood" and started going "door to door" to "people's homes," seizing guns.

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Supposing that was true (which it ain't), what do you think would happen if the dealer said "oh, we already sold that to John Doe Citizen" - think the ATF will just say "oh well, we'll forget about that one"?

Posted: 8/29/2019 2:04:16 PM EDT

[#4]

Predators #3 Movie CLIP - Time to Run! (2010) HD

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ubKpbHcmUmk

Posted: 8/29/2019 2:04:33 PM EDT

[#5]

Bans don't work. All they do is create a black market. Where's my blackmarket AA12s at?

Posted: 8/29/2019 2:05:14 PM EDT

[#6]

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Quoted:
Where is the serial number on an AA12? Metal Plate? Under the shell?
Just wondering if this is ATF not knowing the rules the old AA12s where made under and applying the new standard for marking retroactively? In which case, it would suck to be a LaFrance M16 owner that has the markings on the grip boss.

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This is our first thought. It was good back in the 80’s, now not so much.

Posted: 8/29/2019 2:06:05 PM EDT

[#7]

something something 4th amendment something something property something something unreasonable

FATF

Posted: 8/29/2019 2:06:23 PM EDT

[#8]

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Quoted:
This is our first thought. It was good back in the 80’s, now not so much.

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Quoted:

Quoted:
Where is the serial number on an AA12? Metal Plate? Under the shell?
Just wondering if this is ATF not knowing the rules the old AA12s where made under and applying the new standard for marking retroactively? In which case, it would suck to be a LaFrance M16 owner that has the markings on the grip boss.

This is our first thought. It was good back in the 80’s, now not so much.

How is the serial number done on the AA12?

Posted: 8/29/2019 2:07:45 PM EDT

[#9]

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Quoted:

This is our first thought. It was good back in the 80’s, now not so much.

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But there's tons of old pre 1960 stuff out there that was sold through Sears and whoever, never had a serial number on it. They don't seem to have a hardon for that stuff.

Posted: 8/29/2019 2:09:36 PM EDT

[#10]

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Quoted:

But there's tons of old pre 1960 stuff out there that was sold through Sears and whoever, never had a serial number on it. They don't seem to have a hardon for that stuff.

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The issue is not a gun made prior to the GCA 1968, its a post GCA serial number that has multiple decades worth of bureaucratic rulings on placement, depth, material, etc.

Posted: 8/29/2019 2:10:40 PM EDT

[#11]

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Originally Poste4d By JoeKidder:
"TAKE THE GUNS FIRST! DUE PROCESS LATER!" komrad

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...for the children.

Posted: 8/29/2019 2:11:26 PM EDT

[#12]

Quote History

Quoted:
IIRC, an 07 FFL manufacturer has to mark the firearm with the following:

manufacturer's name;
city and state where the manufacturer is located;
the name of the firearm model;
the caliber/gauge;
and a unique serial number.

So which of these did the manufacturer fuck up?

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I thought they added depth and font size fairly recently

Due to people doing tiny marks down by the trigger hole on AR SBRs and issues with hydro dips virtually obscuring some shallow SNs

Posted: 8/29/2019 2:11:31 PM EDT

[#13]

Stupid ATF.

Posted: 8/29/2019 2:12:08 PM EDT

[#14]

So just have them marked correctly.

I'm sure I'm way underthinking it though. Look a can that needs to be picked up.

Posted: 8/29/2019 2:13:11 PM EDT

[#15]

Second one I've heard about today.

Posted: 8/29/2019 2:13:32 PM EDT

[#16]

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Quoted:

It would be good to know what the logic is, so that we can see what the next move might be.

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Yep, But like I said. Its the same as the police pulling you over for a plate light. The used the incorrect markings as a "justification" to remove a shotgun from ownership. Its the same stupid shit as the Street sweeper. The government can wholesale weapons to other countries for drugs and they skate clean. Someone makes a typo and the come and take them all away. Best solution would be for the atf to just note the incorrect marking. Im going to guess duplicate serials were issued or someone cloned one

Posted: 8/29/2019 2:14:01 PM EDT

[#17]

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Quoted:
What happens if you refuse to hand them over? Standoff with news choppers? Fine? Sternly worded letter?

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I would imagine...

FFL REVOKED (PERMANENTLY)

Posted: 8/29/2019 2:14:42 PM EDT

[#18]

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Quoted:
Someone has a ~~foot~~ boot fetish.

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Quoted:

Quoted:
Sounds like they didn't go "door to door," but, "gun dealer to gun dealer," which is not the same as if they went into my "neighborhood" and started going "door to door" to "people's homes," seizing guns.

Someone has a ~~foot~~ boot fetish.

That's been apparent for awhile.

Posted: 8/29/2019 2:14:55 PM EDT

[#19]

OP, just out of curiosity, how many times has the ATF come to your shop? (Or any LGS in general) Do they make monthly/yearly visits? Or just random? Or was this the first time?

Posted: 8/29/2019 2:15:29 PM EDT

[#20]

When's the last time ATF raided a brewery or a Tobacco plant ?

Posted: 8/29/2019 2:15:48 PM EDT

[#21]

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Quoted:
The markings dont really matter. Its a bullshit call to deny people property.

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Exactly. If it was about the markings, they would them them to correct them, not confiscate their property.

Posted: 8/29/2019 2:16:43 PM EDT

[#22]

Well, shotguns will no longer be suitable for home defense.

Posted: 8/29/2019 2:17:02 PM EDT

[#23]

Quote History

Quoted:
Yep, But like I said. Its the same as the police pulling you over for a plate light. The used the incorrect markings as a "justification" to remove a shotgun from ownership. Its the same stupid shit as the Street sweeper. The government can wholesale weapons to other countries for drugs and they skate clean. Someone makes a typo and the come and take them all away. Best solution would be for the atf to just note the incorrect marking. Im going to guess duplicate serials were issued or someone cloned one

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Quote History

Quoted:

Quoted:

It would be good to know what the logic is, so that we can see what the next move might be.

Yep, But like I said. Its the same as the police pulling you over for a plate light. The used the incorrect markings as a "justification" to remove a shotgun from ownership. Its the same stupid shit as the Street sweeper. The government can wholesale weapons to other countries for drugs and they skate clean. Someone makes a typo and the come and take them all away. Best solution would be for the atf to just note the incorrect marking. Im going to guess duplicate serials were issued or someone cloned one

They were hitting FFLs for paperwork errors due to people not noting the "-" or just putting a space in Ruger SNs on 4473s and bound books

That's why Ruger stopped putting dashes in their SNs after doing it for 50+ years

Posted: 8/29/2019 2:18:27 PM EDT

[#24]

Quote History

Quoted:
When's the last time ATF raided a brewery or a Tobacco plant ?

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ATF doesn’t regulate breweries or tobacco plants any more.

Posted: 8/29/2019 2:20:30 PM EDT

[#25]

Quote History

Quoted:
Sounds like they didn't go "door to door," but, "gun dealer to gun dealer," which is not the same as if they went into my "neighborhood" and started going "door to door" to "people's homes," seizing guns.

View Quote

Ah, now I see that they are not literally going door to door at every residence in the country to look for a handful of firearms that they already know the location of.

Thank you for clearing that up for me.

Posted: 8/29/2019 2:22:01 PM EDT

[#26]

Quote History

Quoted:

ATF doesn’t regulate breweries or tobacco plants any more.

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Thanks, I did not know that.

Posted: 8/29/2019 2:22:35 PM EDT

[#27]

Quote History

Quoted:

But there's tons of old pre 1960 stuff out there that was sold through Sears and whoever, never had a serial number on it. They don't seem to have a hardon for that stuff.

View Quote

Preaching to the choir. Just about the only thing that makes sense to us right now.

Posted: 8/29/2019 2:25:03 PM EDT

[#28]

Quote History

Quoted:
OP, just out of curiosity, how many times has the ATF come to your shop? (Or any LGS in general) Do they make monthly/yearly visits? Or just random? Or was this the first time?

View Quote

Normal inspections are supposed to be done yearly I think? We’ve gone 2 years with out one. But we don’t do retail sales so that likely plays into it.

Posted: 8/29/2019 2:27:04 PM EDT

[#29]

Quote History

Quoted:
Molder and Scully?

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Quoted:

Quoted:
Plot twist

It wasn't the ATF, it was a few smart scumbags in a suit with some "paperwork" and a fake badge.

Molder and Scully?

No...

Mulder only wants the truth.

This seems...

...fucky.

Posted: 8/29/2019 2:28:49 PM EDT

[#30]

Quote History

Quoted:

Normal inspections are supposed to be done yearly I think? We've gone 2 years with out one. But we don't do retail sales so that likely plays into it.

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Back in the 90s we would see 1 guy maybe once every 5 years and it would take an afternoon to do .

Early 2000s one guy would come maybe every 2-3 years for a day maybe 2 days

Now 3 guys are showing almost every year and camping out for a week

Posted: 8/29/2019 2:29:56 PM EDT

[#31]

in!!!!!

Posted: 8/29/2019 2:30:16 PM EDT

[#32]

Quote History

Quoted:
Normal inspections are supposed to be done yearly I think? We’ve gone 2 years with out one. But we don’t do retail sales so that likely plays into it.

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Quote History

Quoted:

Quoted:
OP, just out of curiosity, how many times has the ATF come to your shop? (Or any LGS in general) Do they make monthly/yearly visits? Or just random? Or was this the first time?

Normal inspections are supposed to be done yearly I think? We’ve gone 2 years with out one. But we don’t do retail sales so that likely plays into it.

You are subject to 1 unannounced compliance inspection per 365 day period. So if you get a unannounced compliance inspection on August 29th, you are not subject till a 365 day period has passed. Here in the Southwest if you didn't get a yearly inspection it was odd enough to get people talking. Inspections for cause are different.

Posted: 8/29/2019 2:34:19 PM EDT

[#33]

Quote History

Quoted:
Someone has a ~~foot~~ boot fetish.

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Quoted:

Quoted:
Sounds like they didn't go "door to door," but, "gun dealer to gun dealer," which is not the same as if they went into my "neighborhood" and started going "door to door" to "people's homes," seizing guns.

Someone has a ~~foot~~ boot fetish.

Or maybe just poor reading comprehension.

Posted: 8/29/2019 2:37:07 PM EDT

[#34]

Quote History

Quoted:
Sounds like they didn't go "door to door," but, "gun dealer to gun dealer," which is not the same as if they went into my "neighborhood" and started going "door to door" to "people's homes," seizing guns.

View Quote

Posted: 8/29/2019 2:38:44 PM EDT

[#35]

Quote History

Quoted:

Wrong. They have contacted owners of semi autos and gone to collect the guns.

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How in the hell do they know who owns them?

Going through 4473’s?

Posted: 8/29/2019 2:39:19 PM EDT

[#36]

why not just require the current owner to be marked properly?

Always Think Forfeture

Posted: 8/29/2019 2:40:27 PM EDT

[#37]

A fucking MARKING warrants confiscating every one of them in existence? FATF.

This smells like an excuse to round them up. That will be followed by another excuse as to why they are now permanently banned and you won't be getting it back even if the marking is fixed.

Posted: 8/29/2019 2:41:08 PM EDT

[#38]

Quote History

Quoted:
IIRC, an 07 FFL manufacturer has to mark the firearm with the following:

manufacturer's name;
city and state where the manufacturer is located;
the name of the firearm model;
the caliber/gauge;
and a unique serial number.

So which of these did the manufacturer fuck up?

View Quote

Could also be depth or height of markings.

Edit: beat like a mule

Posted: 8/29/2019 2:43:59 PM EDT

[#39]

Quote History

Quoted:
Could also be depth or height of markings.

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Quote History

Quoted:

Quoted:
IIRC, an 07 FFL manufacturer has to mark the firearm with the following:

manufacturer's name;
city and state where the manufacturer is located;
the name of the firearm model;
the caliber/gauge;
and a unique serial number.

So which of these did the manufacturer fuck up?

Could also be depth or height of markings.

Placement and material used is also part of a ruling now. Polymer framed guns need the serial number engraved on a metal plate "permanently" attached. Also, the serial number and markings need to be "conspicuous", no more hiding the markings.

Posted: 8/29/2019 2:44:15 PM EDT

[#40]

Quote History

Quoted:

How in the hell do they know who owns them?

Going through 4473’s?

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Really?

Every FFL is required to keep a "Bound Book" that lists every gun they have taken into inventory and the person it was originally sold to.

You don't have to sit and pull every 4473, just look at the bound book.

Posted: 8/29/2019 2:44:44 PM EDT

[#41]

That's an extremely vague letter.

Posted: 8/29/2019 2:49:17 PM EDT

[#42]

Quote History

Quoted:

Really?

Every FFL is required to keep a "Bound Book" that lists every gun they have taken into inventory and the person it was originally sold to.

You don't have to sit and pull every 4473, just look at the bound book.

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I’m not an FFL.

Wasn’t aware the bound book was that specific on models, thought it just had serial #’s and caliber.

Posted: 8/29/2019 2:49:19 PM EDT

[#43]

Here is a Gunboards thread from yesterday with even less information;

https://forums.gunboards.com/showthread.php?1108377-Anybody-have-experience-with-their-AA-12-full-or-semi-auto-shotguns-being-seized

Posted: 8/29/2019 2:50:47 PM EDT

[#44]

Quote History

Quoted:

I’m not an FFL.

Wasn’t aware the bound book was that specific on models, thought it just had serial #’s and caliber.

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Make, Model, Serial Number, Caliber and "Type" along with who you sold it to on what date on the disposition side.

Posted: 8/29/2019 2:50:59 PM EDT

[#45]

Their regs. Their rules?

Posted: 8/29/2019 2:51:20 PM EDT

[#46]

Quote History

Quoted:
How in the hell do they know who owns them?

Going through 4473’s?

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Quoted:

Quoted:

Wrong. They have contacted owners of semi autos and gone to collect the guns.

How in the hell do they know who owns them?

Going through 4473’s?

Posted: 8/29/2019 2:53:36 PM EDT

[#47]

Quote History

Quoted:
How in the hell do they know who owns them?

Going through 4473’s?

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Quote History

Quoted:

Quoted:

Wrong. They have contacted owners of semi autos and gone to collect the guns.

How in the hell do they know who owns them?

Going through 4473’s?

Lol, you think the govt doesn't know who buys what, and they actually destroy 4473s???

I got a good line on a bridge in Manhattan for you, for only 20,000 you'll see amazing returns in. Few years. @me for details!

Posted: 8/29/2019 2:55:48 PM EDT

[#48]

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Quoted:
Supposedly there are some lawyers already on it. Think one of them is a member here so if he chimes in there might be more information on that.

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Quoted:

Quoted:
Uh hope you guys plan to fight it in court.

Supposedly there are some lawyers already on it. Think one of them is a member here so if he chimes in there might be more information on that.

Good. Don’t let them get away with it without a fight.

Posted: 8/29/2019 2:55:57 PM EDT

[#49]

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Quoted:
The fuck!?!? Sounds fishy

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lol It wasn't really ATF.

Posted: 8/29/2019 3:02:06 PM EDT

[#50]

Quote History

Quoted:
4473 is registration, that = Confiscation

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How do you think the ATF is going to find the owners of the Semi-auto versions. Pull the 4473 form and there is the person who bought it.
Oh the noes if they hated it and sold it.

[ARCHIVED THREAD] - ATF just left the shop, seizing all AA-12’s due to manufacture markings***edited with atf letter (Page 2 of 10)

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