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Posted: 1/30/2009 4:12:42 PM EDT
[#1]
Quoted: He hasn't even been confirmed yet. While I agree with the sentiment, it would be awfully crack smokey to believe that the agencies are that efficiently mobilized. It could be an internal directive. I don't think we can directly blame this trend on Holder/Obama, but I'm afraid it won't be long...Quoted: Quoted: How often are folks with a C&R payed a visit from the ATF? Recently, a lot. With Holder as AG, anyone who thinks the ATF doesn't have a mandate to fuck gun owners and FFLs is smoking crack. |
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Posted: 1/30/2009 4:14:45 PM EDT
[#2]
Quoted:
Quoted:
A lot of these threads recently. Tag for AAR. I agree. It seems like the "random" inspections are occurring in much greater frequency. The fact that she showed up at my house, blew up my phone, and left her card in my mailbox is really pissing me off.  I can't even call her back right now because I know I can't be polite.
Wait, she just stuck a card in the mailbox? Without mailing it? I thought that was illegal? |
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Posted: 1/30/2009 4:15:20 PM EDT
[#3]
Quoted:
http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c96/MattHoffman/andheretoygo.jpg Better make sure all is in order with my 03... _MaH ETA: Leave the dog with some friends, too... Had to start sooner or later..we all knew it was coming. |
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Posted: 1/30/2009 4:16:26 PM EDT
[#4]
Quoted:
How often are folks with a C&R payed a visit from the ATF? They must be on some C&R kick right now there have been at least three threads of three different folks with C&R having the ATF come to inspect. |
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Posted: 1/30/2009 4:21:46 PM EDT
[#5]
Quoted:
Quoted:
dibs on yer dogs! what the fuck do you want a couple of dead dogs for? Freak. I'll take them. I have a C&R, I'll get all the dead dogs mounted and scatter them throughout my house so my real dogs have a chance to slip out the back. Decoys. |
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Posted: 1/30/2009 4:34:52 PM EDT
[#6]
The amount of foil and drama in this thread is beyond the pale. Trying to make a federal case (literally) out of her putting her business card in your mailbox is going to make you look like a drama queen to anyone you present that case to. Ditto for the "blew my phone up". Just call back and say you are willing to schedule an appointment consistent with your schedule. The DO have a right to inspect and you agreed to that when you applied or your C&R. So just chill out, make the call, keep a calm head and ease through this.
If you get all worked up with them and make their life difficult - I predict that they will get worked up and make your inspection difficult. Rise above your emotions and manage the inspection calmly and with a cool head. |
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Posted: 1/30/2009 4:42:25 PM EDT
[#7]
Yikes!
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Posted: 1/30/2009 7:02:18 PM EDT
[#8]
Someone requested I point this out:
18 USC Section 1725
01/19/04 Sec. 1725. Postage unpaid on deposited mail matter Whoever knowingly and willfully deposits any mailable matter such as statements of accounts, circulars, sale bills, or other like matter, on which no postage has been paid, in any letter box established, approved, or accepted by the Postal Service for the receipt or delivery of mail matter on any mail route with intent to avoid payment of lawful postage thereon, shall for each such offense be fined under this title. AMENDMENTS 1994 - Pub. L. 103-322 substituted "fined under this title" for "fined not more than $300". 1970 - Pub. L. 91-375 substituted "Postal Service" for "Postmaster General". EFFECTIVE DATE OF 1970 AMENDMENT Amendment by Pub. L. 91-375 effective within 1 year after Aug. 12, 1970, on date established therefor by Board of Governors of United States Postal Service and published by it in Federal Register, see section 15(a) of Pub. L. 91-375, set out as an Effective Date note preceding section 101 of Title 39, Postal Service. |
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Posted: 1/30/2009 7:28:15 PM EDT
[#9]
Quoted:
Someone requested I point this out: 18 USC Section 1725
01/19/04 Sec. 1725. Postage unpaid on deposited mail matter Whoever knowingly and willfully deposits any mailable matter such as statements of accounts, circulars, sale bills, or other like matter, on which no postage has been paid, in any letter box established, approved, or accepted by the Postal Service for the receipt or delivery of mail matter on any mail route with intent to avoid payment of lawful postage thereon, shall for each such offense be fined under this title. AMENDMENTS 1994 - Pub. L. 103-322 substituted "fined under this title" for "fined not more than $300". 1970 - Pub. L. 91-375 substituted "Postal Service" for "Postmaster General". EFFECTIVE DATE OF 1970 AMENDMENT Amendment by Pub. L. 91-375 effective within 1 year after Aug. 12, 1970, on date established therefor by Board of Governors of United States Postal Service and published by it in Federal Register, see section 15(a) of Pub. L. 91-375, set out as an Effective Date note preceding section 101 of Title 39, Postal Service. RIF It doesn't apply (unless you are suggesting that the ATF rep was trying to mail her business card somewhere without paying postage). 
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Posted: 1/30/2009 7:40:24 PM EDT
[#10]
Think about it, new administration that will probably not be too tolerant of guns= scrutiny of the ATF to make sure that baby seeking hollowpoint Black Talon guns aren't getting through whatever loophole they imagine existing. ATF is trying to protect its own cornhole.
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Posted: 1/30/2009 7:44:10 PM EDT
[#11]
every gun owner should print this and read and heedwhen the ATF comes calling
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Posted: 1/30/2009 10:01:31 PM EDT
[#12]
If she keeps pestering you, she may want oral. Go down on her and be done with it.
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Posted: 1/31/2009 5:42:15 AM EDT
[#13]
Quoted:
Quoted:
Someone requested I point this out: 18 USC Section 1725
01/19/04 Sec. 1725. Postage unpaid on deposited mail matter Whoever knowingly and willfully deposits any mailable matter such as statements of accounts, circulars, sale bills, or other like matter, on which no postage has been paid, in any letter box established, approved, or accepted by the Postal Service for the receipt or delivery of mail matter on any mail route with intent to avoid payment of lawful postage thereon, shall for each such offense be fined under this title. AMENDMENTS 1994 - Pub. L. 103-322 substituted "fined under this title" for "fined not more than $300". 1970 - Pub. L. 91-375 substituted "Postal Service" for "Postmaster General". EFFECTIVE DATE OF 1970 AMENDMENT Amendment by Pub. L. 91-375 effective within 1 year after Aug. 12, 1970, on date established therefor by Board of Governors of United States Postal Service and published by it in Federal Register, see section 15(a) of Pub. L. 91-375, set out as an Effective Date note preceding section 101 of Title 39, Postal Service. RIF It doesn't apply (unless you are suggesting that the ATF rep was trying to mail her business card somewhere without paying postage). "for the receipt or delivery of mail matter" Yes it does, you cannot just stick stuff in mailboxes without paying postage.....hence the "for the receipt of " 
Safe to assume any mail in my mailbox without due postage is either illegally placed junk mail or a scam of some sort....... However in a situation like yours "Joe Civilian" vs. ATF, I would guard my cornhole ....... 
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Posted: 1/31/2009 6:00:27 AM EDT
[#14]
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
His name was Justa_TXguy. I do not understand. In death, a member of Project Mayhem has a name. ...and his name was Justa_TXguy. 
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Posted: 1/31/2009 6:01:26 AM EDT
[#15]
From your cold dead fingers brother !!!
Good luck!! |
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Posted: 1/31/2009 6:07:52 AM EDT
[#16]
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Posted: 1/31/2009 6:14:31 AM EDT
[#17]
Quoted: I'm new, but what does the ATF have to do with his dog? 94NDTA  Member Joined: Sep 2007  ND, USA Posts: 92 Feedback: 0-0-0New? Really? |
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Posted: 1/31/2009 6:37:17 AM EDT
[#18]
Make the appointment. When she arrives be cool calm and collective, and ask her if she minds you taping her visit
for her protection as well as yours. Be as professional as possible. Anything else will put the spotlight on all FFL holders in the US. That is what the obamanites want right now is to make all FFL's look like raving idiots, so dont let it happen. But above all CYA! |
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Posted: 1/31/2009 6:47:53 AM EDT
[#19]
Man I wish these threads didn't exist. In MO a C&R is our only hope of owning suppressors. Have to have some type of license. Plus the discount from Midway and other places is REALLY appealing for the amount of stuff I get from there. I just don't know if it's worth it. I don't know if I want to open THAT door. I want discounts and quiet toys!
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Posted: 1/31/2009 7:10:00 AM EDT
[#20]
Quoted:
I would call a lawyer. And for the inspection, request to meet at a separate location. You are going to call a lawyer? For what? The ATF want to do an inspection on my 03FFL...............OMG call a lawyer!!!!!! Do you guys have lawyers on retainers for all these calls you make? It's clear when you get your 03FFL that there can be an inspection, it can also be offsite. |
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Posted: 1/31/2009 7:19:43 AM EDT
[#21]
Every so often I toy around with the idea of a C&R licence when I see something cool I want.
Then I get to the part about the inspections and figure that paying for transfers looks like a good deal compaired to dealing with that. |
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Posted: 1/31/2009 7:22:56 AM EDT
[#22]
Conclusion...don't get an 03, have your stuff transferred through an 01 and fill out a 4473, They aren't doing "random inspections" of people purchasing guns on 4473's...yet.
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Posted: 1/31/2009 7:27:41 AM EDT
[#23]
Oh Noes!
Not a C&R inspection!!!! Relax. Hundreds of C&R holders go through this every year. Have your books in order, keep the non-C&R stuff separate from the C&R guns for the inspection, and be polite. I'm sure you'll live through it. Not every BATFe agent doing a C&R inspection is there to shoot your dog or put their jackboot on your throat....most are just there to do a compliance check that *you* agreed to when you applied for the license. Generally,it's no biggie if you've been playing by the rules... |
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Posted: 1/31/2009 7:36:34 AM EDT
[#24]
It takes you so long to answer to drag your ass to the door that someone can deposit a business card in your mailbox, start their car, and be up the road by the time you manage to open it?
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Posted: 1/31/2009 7:36:38 AM EDT
[#25]
This is definitely happening more and more. I had my first C & R inspection last month. The agent came to my door and showed me his ID. He told me he was here to look at my records. He said he could either do it right then, or he could come back at a later date. I was on my way out of the house for an out of town trip, so he gave me his card and asked me to call him when I got back, which I did.
It was really a pretty simple process. He looked at my records, made sure I had the firearms that I said I did (although he didn't know a Garand from an SKS) and that was that. My bound book is just an EXCEL spreadsheet in a three ring binder. I had him sign and date my bound book with his written statement that everything was in order, just in case I get another visit in the near future. However, he told me that the visits shouldn't be more frequently than once every three years at the most. Word of advice: Don't be a dick. Be courteous and polite. Inspections are part of the FFL process. If you don't want the chance of an inspection, don't get a FFL. What would you do if you were a ATF employee and the person you were trying to inspect gave you a hard time? I'm guess most of the members here would give that person a little "special" attention, which none of us wants. Just make sure all of your records are in order and be done with it. Here's another tip for dealing with auditors at any level, whether it be the government or a quality auditor in the business world. Keep your mouth shut and let them ask questions. Don't offer anything more than you need too, or it gives them an opening to dig in different directions. |
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Posted: 1/31/2009 7:45:33 AM EDT
[#26]
Quoted:
He hasn't even been confirmed yet. While I agree with the sentiment, it would be awfully crack smokey to believe that the agencies are that efficiently mobilized. It could be an internal directive. I don't think we can directly blame this trend on Holder/Obama, but I'm afraid it won't be long... You don't think they see the handwriting on the wall? Come on. |
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Posted: 1/31/2009 7:52:55 AM EDT
[#27]
Quoted:
SNIP ...What would you do if you were a ATF employee and the person you were trying to inspect gave you a hard time? I'm guess most of the members here would give that person a little "special" attention, which none of us wants. Just make sure all of your records are in order and be done with it. SNIP Not a problem. You would never see most of us wearing THAT badge. 
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Posted: 1/31/2009 8:19:55 AM EDT
[#28]
I just read this. This is excellent information and not just regarding firearms. Being a lawyer must be nice. Having a good lawyer is obviously the next best thing. Thanks for the post. |
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Posted: 1/31/2009 8:34:33 AM EDT
[#29]
Don't make a big deal out of it. I was inspected for the first time in 7 years about three months ago (I'm an 01 FFL holder). Agent stopped by, I wasn't in, she called and we arranged for a time to meet. My books and records were in order, she signed my "bound book", and left. It was very professional, courteous, and reasonably quick. If you just do what you are supposed to, which is ridiculously easy, it is a no brainer. If you are NOT doing what is required, then either straighten yourself out or turn in your FFL.
Maybe its different in other jurisdictions, but I've found the ATF to be just people doing their jobs without some secret, sinister motive. |
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Posted: 1/31/2009 9:07:45 AM EDT
[#30]
Let us know how it goes. be careful there are a couple things against you. Ebonics commonly comes with an attitude, this is doubled with the gender. Do not risk anything with this agent. fewest words maximum cooperation.
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Posted: 1/31/2009 9:20:54 AM EDT
[#31]
Quoted:
Let us know how it goes. be careful there are a couple things against you. Ebonics commonly comes with an attitude, this is doubled with the gender. Do not risk anything with this agent. fewest words maximum cooperation. Fuck that. You can't show a yellow belly in cases like this. Trust me. I've seen a lot of spinals gansta' wannabes in my day. Justa_TXGuy, if Special Agent Latifa gives you any static, just whip out your Tazer and keep pumping the juice until her extensions catch on fire. |
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Posted: 1/31/2009 9:24:01 AM EDT
[#32]
I'd turn them in to the U.S. Post Master. They can't just put stuff in your mail box. That's against the law.
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Posted: 1/31/2009 9:26:45 AM EDT
[#33]
Hide your weapons cache
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Posted: 1/31/2009 9:26:58 AM EDT
[#34]
What happens if you have a C&R but have never used it, yet you own C&R eligible rifles that you bought before you had a C&R?
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Posted: 1/31/2009 9:30:24 AM EDT
[#35]
Quoted:
Quoted:
Let us know how it goes. be careful there are a couple things against you. Ebonics commonly comes with an attitude, this is doubled with the gender. Do not risk anything with this agent. fewest words maximum cooperation. I've seen a lot of spinals gansta' wannabes in my day 
Well played, Mr. Sobchak... |
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Posted: 1/31/2009 9:33:39 AM EDT
[#36]
Quoted:
I'm new, but what does the ATF have to do with his dog? This 
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Posted: 1/31/2009 9:37:13 AM EDT
[#37]
Quoted:
How often are folks with a C&R payed a visit from the ATF? Several ARFCommers have reported it RECENTLY. It looks like the ATF is trolling for low hanging fruit. The hobbiest who might have made filing errors. |
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Posted: 1/31/2009 9:46:32 AM EDT
[#38]
Quoted:
if that were me and the atf princess was coming back for her visit I'd had have several video camera's all around and rolling the entire time she was there. if she be speakin ebonics she could screw you up big time and you'd never know it. As much as this might be construed as a bit racist, I have to agree. I had a Security Police Commander as my immediate supervisor at one time. He achieved his position simply because of his minority status. Unbelievably incompetent, and so getto that no one could understand what he was trying to say much of the time. He'd tell myself and others to do things that weren't just wrong, but blatantly illegal. He didn't know any better, and when we tried to politely explain things to him, he thought we were patronizing him and wouldn't listen. He would take in ebonics and we would constantly be asking for clarification, reaching the point he thought we were making fun of him and become belligerent. The ebonics thing could get you into serious trouble if you do what you THINK she wants done, and she later claims that wasn't it. |
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Posted: 1/31/2009 10:05:57 AM EDT
[#39]
Quoted:
Here's another tip for dealing with auditors at any level, whether it be the government or a quality auditor in the business world. Keep your mouth shut and let them ask questions. Don't offer anything more than you need too, or it gives them an opening to dig in different directions. Good advice. Here's another good thing to know: avoid a violation of Section 1001, http://www4.law.cornell.edu/uscode/18/1001.html. This is the easiest way the Feds can send you up the river, even if you are innocent in every other way. |
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Posted: 1/31/2009 10:19:39 AM EDT
[#40]
It has been reported more than once that part of the master plan is to crack down and eventually eliminate C&R FFL's. All FFL's will be under increasing scrutiny with the intention of trying to shut down all FFL's. No FFL's, no more legal gun sales after the so called gun show loophole is closed. It is just another stealth disarmement strategy.
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Posted: 1/31/2009 10:22:45 AM EDT
[#41]
Quoted:
The amount of foil and drama in this thread is beyond the pale. Trying to make a federal case (literally) out of her putting her business card in your mailbox is going to make you look like a drama queen to anyone you present that case to. Ditto for the "blew my phone up". Just call back and say you are willing to schedule an appointment consistent with your schedule. The DO have a right to inspect and you agreed to that when you applied or your C&R. So just chill out, make the call, keep a calm head and ease through this. If you get all worked up with them and make their life difficult - I predict that they will get worked up and make your inspection difficult. Rise above your emotions and manage the inspection calmly and with a cool head. Some of the victoms of the holocaust were in such a state of denial, they refused to accept the concept of industrial murder even as they were ushered into the gas chambers and later sent up the chimneys as smoke. Are you a denier? |
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Posted: 1/31/2009 10:23:01 AM EDT
[#42]
IMHO.........YOU go through all the trouble and expense of getting a lic. YOU KNEW that inspections comes with the lic.
Then, when the inspection comes.............you call a lawyer or hide? Jeez........the government must be just full of evil and hate for YOU. Tin Foil Hat Time. Aloha, Mark |
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Posted: 1/31/2009 10:29:48 AM EDT
[#43]
Things like this further reinforce my decision not to renew my license. Glad that it has expired.
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Posted: 1/31/2009 10:33:34 AM EDT
[#44]
I didn't read pages 2 & 3, but would an ATF field agent be driving their personal car like that? And if not, I thought the .gov only bought vehicles from American car makers (and don't give me that "but its built in the U.S." garbage).
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Posted: 1/31/2009 10:38:33 AM EDT
[#45]
Quoted:
Make the appointment. When she arrives be cool calm and collective, and ask her if she minds you taping her visit for her protection as well as yours. Be as professional as possible. Anything else will put the spotlight on all FFL holders in the US. That is what the obamanites want right now is to make all FFL's look like raving idiots, so dont let it happen. But above all CYA! If she's doing the inspection in your home, you do not have a requirement to notify them that they are under surveillance.
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Posted: 1/31/2009 10:53:54 AM EDT
[#46]
tag
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Posted: 1/31/2009 11:03:19 AM EDT
[#47]
Quoted:
Quoted:
The amount of foil and drama in this thread is beyond the pale. Trying to make a federal case (literally) out of her putting her business card in your mailbox is going to make you look like a drama queen to anyone you present that case to. Ditto for the "blew my phone up". Just call back and say you are willing to schedule an appointment consistent with your schedule. The DO have a right to inspect and you agreed to that when you applied or your C&R. So just chill out, make the call, keep a calm head and ease through this. If you get all worked up with them and make their life difficult - I predict that they will get worked up and make your inspection difficult. Rise above your emotions and manage the inspection calmly and with a cool head. Some of the victoms of the holocaust were in such a state of denial, they refused to accept the concept of industrial murder even as they were ushered into the gas chambers and later sent up the chimneys as smoke. Are you a denier? Ok, seriously? I don't wave the tinfoil hat accusations around too much, but come on. Stretching a search of your bound book into a holocaust reference is REALLY grasping at straws... |
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Posted: 1/31/2009 11:04:09 AM EDT
[#48]
Quoted:
Quoted:
Let us know how it goes. be careful there are a couple things against you. Ebonics commonly comes with an attitude, this is doubled with the gender. Do not risk anything with this agent. fewest words maximum cooperation. Fuck that. You can't show a yellow belly in cases like this. Trust me. I've seen a lot of spinals gansta' wannabes in my day. Justa_TXGuy, if Special Agent Latifa gives you any static, just whip out your Tazer and keep pumping the juice until her extensions catch on fire. Yup, real helpfull advice there spary. I think we can all assume that you were kidding
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Posted: 1/31/2009 11:14:58 AM EDT
[#49]
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
The amount of foil and drama in this thread is beyond the pale. Trying to make a federal case (literally) out of her putting her business card in your mailbox is going to make you look like a drama queen to anyone you present that case to. Ditto for the "blew my phone up". Just call back and say you are willing to schedule an appointment consistent with your schedule. The DO have a right to inspect and you agreed to that when you applied or your C&R. So just chill out, make the call, keep a calm head and ease through this. If you get all worked up with them and make their life difficult - I predict that they will get worked up and make your inspection difficult. Rise above your emotions and manage the inspection calmly and with a cool head. Some of the victoms of the holocaust were in such a state of denial, they refused to accept the concept of industrial murder even as they were ushered into the gas chambers and later sent up the chimneys as smoke. Are you a denier? Ok, seriously? I don't wave the tinfoil hat accusations around too much, but come on. Stretching a search of your bound book into a holocaust reference is REALLY grasping at straws... Ok, myabe a bit of a stretch,. However, I see a lat of people throwing the tinfoil hat label around lately. I call it part of the "Head in Cement It can Never Happen Here Syndrome". It seems to be a common illness, up there with Affluenza and DUism. Yes most ATF inspectors are probably honest nice people, but the agency in general has had some horrible eppisodes in its long and storied history. So being in a willfull condition white is deserving of some criticism.. |
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Posted: 1/31/2009 11:28:15 AM EDT
[#50]
Quoted:
What happens if you have a C&R but have never used it, yet you own C&R eligible rifles that you bought before you had a C&R? I'd like to know the answer to the part in red above. I've never used my 03 for any purchases, and in fact don't even own anything other than one AR. Do I even need a "bound book?" As the MO member earlier stated, I have my 03 only for the purpose of complying with MO state law which says you have to be an FFL of some type to legally own SBRs and suppressors - which I'd like to do at some point in the near future. |
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