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Link Posted: 8/3/2012 7:36:40 AM EST
[#1]
Quoted:
Does this mean that I could buy a gun while on holiday in the US?


Nope.
Link Posted: 8/3/2012 7:37:36 AM EST
[#2]
BTW, this is a great change, and I'm glad they did it.
Link Posted: 8/3/2012 7:48:22 AM EST
[#3]
The BATFE touched on sales to aliens in an FFL newsletter back in 2008. You can download it here: http://www.atf.gov/publications/newsletters/ffl/ffl-newsletter-2008-11.pdf

Sorry about the lack of formatting. Download the newsletter if you want it to look pretty.

Obviously, the 90-day residency requirement no longer applies (that's what this thread is about) . .  .

SALE OF FIREARMS AND AMMUNITION TO ALIENS
ALIENS BUYING AMMUNITION:
A nonimmigrant alien generally may not purchase ammunition from a Federal firearms licensee (FFL) or a nonlicensee to possess in the United States. This prohibition applies unless they establish that they meet one of the exceptions. The exception that would apply to most nonimmigrant aliens would be if they were admitted to the United States for lawful hunting or sporting purposes and/or are in possession of a valid hunting license or permit lawfully issued in the United States.
If the nonimmigrant alien meets one of these exceptions, they would be eligible to purchase ammunition to possess in the United States. However, they may not take the ammunition with them when they leave the United States unless:
1. For ammunition of sporting shotguns, they must have an FFL export the ammunition. The FFL must obtain an export license from the Department of Commerce prior to exportation.
2. For ammunition for firearms other than sporting shotguns, an FFL registered with the Department of State, Office of Defense Trade Controls (ODTC), may export the ammunition. The FFL must obtain an export license from ODTC prior to exportation.
Unlike with the purchase of firearms, there is no residency requirement for purchasing ammunition. Additional information is available in ATF Publication 5300.18, Nonimmigrant Aliens Purchasing Firearms and Ammunition in the United States.
ALIENS BUYING FIREARMS:
A FOUR-STEP GUIDE
FOLLOW THE FOUR STEPS
AND KNOW THE EXCEPTIONS
Federal firearms licensees (FFLs) often have questions when aliens purchase firearms. The Following guidelines are recommended when transferring firearms to foreign nationals. Here is a simple guide for those transactions:
Step One: Identify the person’s immigration status.
If the buyer is not a U.S. citizen, ask him/her about his/her immigration status and confirm the response with the written answers he/she provides on the applicable ATF Form 4473. If he/she identifies him/herself as a U.S. citizen, proceed with the applicable and appropriate requirements to complete or not complete the transaction.
Step Two: Identify the alien class: Immigrant Alien, Non-Immigrant Alien (NIA), or Illegal Alien.
Any person who is not a U.S. citizen is defined in one of three alien classes.
 Immigrant Alien
The immigrant alien, also known as a resident alien, is a permanent resident of the United States. This person has received permission to live and work in the United States permanently. A sale to this person is generally permitted (see Step Four).
TIP: To verify their immigrant status, ask to see their Permanent Resident Card, their legal proof of residency in the United States.
 Non-Immigrant Alien (NIA)
The non-immigrant alien is a person not permanently residing in the United States. He has come to the United States for a specific purpose or business, tourism, or some other special interest, e.g., he may be a foreign student. His stay is for a defined period of time, after which he must return to his home country. Generally, he is prohibited from purchasing a firearm, unless he qualifies for an exception (see Step Three).
TIP: To verify his non-immigrant status, ask to see his travel visa, usually affixed inside his passport, and/or other supporting travel documents.
 Illegal Alien
The illegal alien is a person who has entered the country illegally, and who has not received permission to enter or stay in the United States or his/her permission to stay in the country has expired. Such persons cannot purchase firearms or ammunition under any circumstances.
Step Three: Identify the purchasing exception
for the non-immigrant alien.
There are five general exceptions that allow or enable an NIA to purchase a firearm. They are as follows:
 Hunting purposes or in possession of a hunting permit;
 Official foreign government representative;
 Official foreign government representative w/ State Dept. designation;
 Official foreign law enforcement official on government business;
 Special waiver from the U.S. Attorney General
(see Step Four).
TIP: The hunting permit/license exception is the most common exception used by non-immigrants. Ask the purchaser for his/her State-issued hunting permit and make a copy for your records. [Please note that this is not a requirement.]
Step Four: Review the State residency documents.
Both the immigrant alien and the non-immigrant alien who purchases a firearm under an exception must be a resident of the State in which he/she makes his/her purchase. He/she must have documented evidence that he/she has resided in a State for 90 continuous days immediately prior to the date of the sale.
TIP: Ask to see the purchaser’s common documents that will verify 90 continuous days of State residency (i.e. utility bills, tenant’s lease, bank statements, etc.), and note the documentation used on ATF Form 4473 or attach copies of such documents to the ATF Form 4473.

**Contact your local ATF field office in the event that you have further questions or encounter situations not covered by these four steps. REMEMBER: As an FFL, you have the right to refuse any sale that you feel is unlawful.
Link Posted: 8/3/2012 7:49:29 AM EST
[#4]
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
The timing of this is suspect, as is the intent.

Since Team Obama doesn't believe in the right of individuals to own firearms, why would they order the ATF to relax the residency requirement requirements on purchasing firearms?

I suspect something entirely different with this move...

The intent is obviously to make it easier for foreign nationals to purchase firearms in the US.  Why?


My thoughts exactly, this isn't being done because it's the right thing to do.



It does seems unlikely that the current justice department would go looking through their regs for ones that are unlawful solely to help legal gun owners.


Yet, that is exactly what happened. DOJ reviewed the ATF's procedures on immigrant and alien firearm sales, and deemed that the
ATF had not interpreted these laws correctly......hence the recent change.
Link Posted: 8/3/2012 7:56:39 AM EST
[#5]



Quoted:




I'm an FFL, but the whole non-immigrant alien thing is still a bit nebulous to me (largely because I don't know much about the immigration process or foreign travel). That said, here's my take:



* Leaving the gun in the U.S. with a citizen would be no problem in MY STATE. Face to face transfers between non-licensed individuals are nobody's business as long as neither party is a prohibited person. Not every state's laws are as liberal, though.

* Assuming you jump through all the hoops outlined in the BATFE Q&A  I posted above, I BELIEVE you could buy a gun. How easy it is for you to jump through the hoops, I don't know. Again, I don't know shit about immigration or visas.

* If you came into my shop and didn't come across as a shitbum, I would try to work with you to make it happen. I can't guarantee that a call to BATFE would produce any useful information, though. Probably depends on the phase of the moon on the day I call.





FTF transfers of firearms between unlicensed persons are only lawful if both parties are legal residents of the same state and state law does not prohibit such transfers. Assuming the nonimmigrant alien is permitted to legally posses a firearm in the U.S. I believe under these circumstances "leaving" a firearm for an extended period of time with an unlicensed person might be considered a transfer.
 
Link Posted: 8/3/2012 8:01:26 AM EST
[#6]





Quoted:






The BATFE touched on sales to aliens in an FFL newsletter back in 2008. You can download it here: http://www.atf.gov/publications/newsletters/ffl/ffl-newsletter-2008-11.pdf
 



It may come down to whether he is in the country under the visa waiver program or some other ATF rule. That's why I asked him on the previous page how he was entering the US.



There is also an ATF downloadable pamphlet that further explains firearm/ammunition sales to nonimmigrant aliens.



http://www.atf.gov/publications/download/p/atf-p-5300-18.pdf
 
Link Posted: 8/3/2012 8:56:45 AM EST
[#7]
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
The timing of this is suspect, as is the intent.

Since Team Obama doesn't believe in the right of individuals to own firearms, why would they order the ATF to relax the residency requirement requirements on purchasing firearms?

I suspect something entirely different with this move...

The intent is obviously to make it easier for foreign nationals to purchase firearms in the US.  Why?


My thoughts exactly, this isn't being done because it's the right thing to do.



It does seems unlikely that the current justice department would go looking through their regs for ones that are unlawful solely to help legal gun owners.


Yet, that is exactly what happened. DOJ reviewed the ATF's procedures on immigrant and alien firearm sales, and deemed that the
ATF had not interpreted these laws correctly......hence the recent change.


Your faith in the government is amusing.  Where does it come from?
Link Posted: 8/3/2012 9:37:30 AM EST
[#8]
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
The timing of this is suspect, as is the intent.

Since Team Obama doesn't believe in the right of individuals to own firearms, why would they order the ATF to relax the residency requirement requirements on purchasing firearms?

I suspect something entirely different with this move...

The intent is obviously to make it easier for foreign nationals to purchase firearms in the US.  Why?


My thoughts exactly, this isn't being done because it's the right thing to do.



It does seems unlikely that the current justice department would go looking through their regs for ones that are unlawful solely to help legal gun owners.


Yet, that is exactly what happened. DOJ reviewed the ATF's procedures on immigrant and alien firearm sales, and deemed that the
ATF had not interpreted these laws correctly......hence the recent change.


Your faith in the government is amusing.  Where does it come from?


Why wouldn't he trust the ATF, its not like they have a history of shady shit? They would never Throw gun dealers in prison for selling to straw buyers that they forced the dealers to sell to or cobble together weapons with zip ties and duct tape to make them fire full auto or give guns to murderers as a way to get gun control legislation passed or declare toys machine guns or tell someone their product was legal to sell just to reverse their decision after the person invested all their money in the product and they would never ever ever use someone's left over plumbing supplies after remodeling their house and their reloading supplies to throw someone in prison even though there was no evidence that they ever did anything illegal. No there's no reason to not to trust that this was done for legal reasons and not just another part of their political scams.

Link Posted: 8/3/2012 10:05:36 AM EST
[#9]
Quoted:

I believe under these circumstances "leaving" a firearm for an extended period of time with an unlicensed person might be considered a transfer.


 


chirp . . . chirp . . . chirp . . .
Link Posted: 8/3/2012 11:34:47 AM EST
[#10]
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
The timing of this is suspect, as is the intent.

Since Team Obama doesn't believe in the right of individuals to own firearms, why would they order the ATF to relax the residency requirement requirements on purchasing firearms?

I suspect something entirely different with this move...

The intent is obviously to make it easier for foreign nationals to purchase firearms in the US.  Why?


My thoughts exactly, this isn't being done because it's the right thing to do.



It does seems unlikely that the current justice department would go looking through their regs for ones that are unlawful solely to help legal gun owners.


Yet, that is exactly what happened. DOJ reviewed the ATF's procedures on immigrant and alien firearm sales, and deemed that the
ATF had not interpreted these laws correctly......hence the recent change.


Your faith in the government is amusing.  Where does it come from?


Why wouldn't he trust the ATF, its not like they have a history of shady shit? They would never Throw gun dealers in prison for selling to straw buyers that they forced the dealers to sell to or cobble together weapons with zip ties and duct tape to make them fire full auto or give guns to murderers as a way to get gun control legislation passed or declare toys machine guns or tell someone their product was legal to sell just to reverse their decision after the person invested all their money in the product and they would never ever ever use someone's left over plumbing supplies after remodeling their house and their reloading supplies to throw someone in prison even though there was no evidence that they ever did anything illegal. No there's no reason to not to trust that this was done for legal reasons and not just another part of their political scams.



TBH, I'm more thinking about the difference between the treatment NYC gets when they violate the GCA86 vs the treatment Arizona gets when they attempt to enforce immigration law.  The contrast is pretty stark, one state knowingly violates federal law, the other state attempts, as best they can, to enforce existing federal law.  One gets slapped down, the other ignored.
Link Posted: 8/3/2012 11:41:58 AM EST
[#11]
Quoted:
The timing of this is suspect, as is the intent.

Since Team Obama doesn't believe in the right of individuals to own firearms, why would they order the ATF to relax the residency requirement requirements on purchasing firearms?

I suspect something entirely different with this move...

They're trying to derail the pending suit, which looks like a slam dunk to overthrow an even larger chuck of the GCA.  They make this change, then they'll argue that the existing suit is moot so that the plaintiffs would have to start over again.

The case is Dearth et al v. Holder
Gov is working hard to not have to face a judgement on that case.

Lane v. Holder
Is a similar case addressing a closely related issue, which also goes to the heart of what they are trying to protect in the GCA.
Link Posted: 8/3/2012 11:43:40 AM EST
[#12]
Quoted:
Quoted:
The timing of this is suspect, as is the intent.

Since Team Obama doesn't believe in the right of individuals to own firearms, why would they order the ATF to relax the residency requirement requirements on purchasing firearms?

I suspect something entirely different with this move...

They're trying to derail the pending suit, which looks like a slam dunk to overthrow an even larger chuck of the GCA.  They make this change, then they'll argue that the existing suit is moot so that the plaintiffs would have to start over again.


Quoted:
Yet, that is exactly what happened. DOJ reviewed the ATF's procedures on immigrant and alien firearm sales, and deemed that the
ATF had not interpreted these laws correctly......hence the recent change.


One of these theories makes sense.  One is blind bootlicking.
Link Posted: 8/5/2012 4:31:20 AM EST
[#13]
I came across this discussion yesterday as I was looking for an explanation for what happened to me.  I was in a gun store and asked about purchasing a gun as an out of state resident.  I was told, as of a few weeks ago, this is no longer allowed.  Some recent changes having to do with illegal aliens being able to get fake state ID's and DL's and easily buy guns.  I have just moved to Texas from another state.  I looked up the laws pertaining to out of state firearms purchase, and it basically says, it depends on your home state.  I checked the laws with my home state and it says i can purchase rifles, shotguns and handguns anywhere in the country so long as it is transacted by an FFL.  Yet, this store in texas says they can no longer sell to anyone out of stae because of some new change pertaining to aliens with I-94 numbers.  Something about, "they can't ask an alien for ID" or something.
Link Posted: 8/5/2012 2:12:10 PM EST
[#14]
Quoted:
I came across this discussion yesterday as I was looking for an explanation for what happened to me.  I was in a gun store and asked about purchasing a gun as an out of state resident.  I was told, as of a few weeks ago, this is no longer allowed.  Some recent changes having to do with illegal aliens being able to get fake state ID's and DL's and easily buy guns.  I have just moved to Texas from another state.  I looked up the laws pertaining to out of state firearms purchase, and it basically says, it depends on your home state.  I checked the laws with my home state and it says i can purchase rifles, shotguns and handguns anywhere in the country so long as it is transacted by an FFL.  Yet, this store in texas says they can no longer sell to anyone out of stae because of some new change pertaining to aliens with I-94 numbers.  Something about, "they can't ask an alien for ID" or something.


Yeah, I don't think that's right . . .
Link Posted: 8/5/2012 2:17:01 PM EST
[#15]
I wonder what the left hand is up to...
Link Posted: 8/7/2012 2:41:35 AM EST
[#16]
There's something fishy going on.  Obama is fighting voter ID cards in TX, to make sure more illegals and dead people get to vote.  Meanwhile he's pushing some weird language about aliens obtaining guns down through the DOJ.  wonder if this is some sort of cover up, or deflection away from the fast and furious scandal.  If they can show that lots of illegals can buy guns in the U.S., then they can convince the public there is a problem.  Wish someone knew what this new development is exactly.
Link Posted: 8/7/2012 3:20:39 AM EST
[#17]
Quoted:
Does your knee hurt from jerking it so hard?


Good change.


this.

in this country legally? check
can prove it? check

buy gun. join the rest of us who enjoy firearms an uniquely amerikan freedom..
Link Posted: 8/7/2012 3:24:45 AM EST
[#18]
Quoted:
There's something fishy going on.  Obama is fighting voter ID cards in TX, to make sure more illegals and dead people get to vote.  Meanwhile he's pushing some weird language about aliens obtaining guns down through the DOJ.  wonder if this is some sort of cover up, or deflection away from the fast and furious scandal.  If they can show that lots of illegals can buy guns in the U.S., then they can convince the public there is a problem.  Wish someone knew what this new development is exactly.


I think you're trying too hard. You're trying to link apples and asparagus. They're too separate things. The voter ID thing is just a way to stuff the ballot box for Democrats. The residency/race/ethnicity thing is just bureaucratic nonsense.

BTW, my wife works for a state agency that interacts directly with federal programs (in the health care field). She says the Hispanic/Not Hispanic thing has been common in federal forms for some time. It seems like the BATFE was just coming into line with the rest of the gubment.

Link Posted: 8/7/2012 3:33:21 AM EST
[#19]
Quoted:
BTW, this is a great change, and I'm glad they did it.


This.
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