Warning

 

Close

Confirm Action

Are you sure you wish to do this?

Confirm Cancel
PSA
Member Login

Site Notices
Page / 3
Link Posted: 10/26/2010 7:08:11 PM EDT
Link Posted: 10/26/2010 7:08:34 PM EDT

The Navy Reserve approves of this thread.
Link Posted: 10/26/2010 7:11:55 PM EDT
Originally Posted By sc_beerbarge:
Thanks for posting. Never heard of the Taffy 3.


See my sig line.  It was one of the last major ship to ship engagements of the USN, fought by an outnumbered band of Reservists and Draftees, who were completely outclassed by their enemy in any objective measure.  The battle is the Iwo Jima of the Navy, except, unlike the Marines, up until the Japanese retired, there was no doubt the Americans would eventually lose.
Link Posted: 10/26/2010 7:15:59 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Seansworth:
Originally Posted By Nick710:
Originally Posted By PlaneJane:
Originally Posted By Nick710:
Ernest Evans is from Pawnee, Oklahoma over in the next county. Unfortunately, there's not much of a monument to him over there.

What the hell is wrong with those people?  That guy got The Medal for crossing the T on a line of IJN cruisers with an already shot to shit destroyer.  People who just won't quit are a really emotional thing for me; I can't think about Ernest Evans for more than a couple seconds before I start to tear up.

Jane



My thoughts exactly Jane. There should be a huge memorial just to him. There is a war memorial, and his name in on a brick in the ground as a MOH recipient, but that's all I could find.


Do you know what cemetery he is at?  I'd like to stop by and see it.


Likely about 30 miles off Samar in about 1000 fathoms.  He likely commanded the abandonment of the Johnson, but was wounded and likely died in the water.
Link Posted: 10/26/2010 7:28:31 PM EDT

The successor to the Sammy B. was another Sammy B. that was nearly sunk by an Iranian mine.

From wiki...

The frigate deployed from its home port in Newport, Rhode Island in January 1988, heading for the Persian Gulf to participate in Operation Earnest Will, the escort of reflagged Kuwaiti tankers during the Iran–Iraq War. The Roberts had arrived in the Persian Gulf and was heading for a refueling rendezvous on April 14 when the ship struck an M-08 naval mine in the central Persian Gulf, an area it had safely transited a few days previously. The mine blew a 15-foot (5 m) hole in the hull, flooded the engine room, and knocked the two gas turbines from their mounts. The blast also broke the keel of the ship; such structural damage is almost always fatal to most vessels. The crew fought fire and flooding for five hours and saved the ship. Ten sailors were medevaced for injuries sustained in the blast, six returned to the Roberts in a day or so. Four burn victims were sent for treatment to a military hospital in Germany, and eventually to medical facilities in the United States


The second Sammy B., FFG-58 had a plaque amidships that commemorated its namesake, DE-413.  It was the focal point for ship activities like reenlistments and promotions.  When the Sammy B was hit, as the damage control parties raced past the plaque, the Captain noticed that the crew was touching the plaque for luck.

The successful damage control of the second Sammy B. was made possible by the work of an Sailor untrained in the generators he was keeping on line.  The Sailor, by the name of Carr, was a frequent flyer at Captain's Mast.  When asked by the Captain when the ship was safe, how he could keep the generators online, he replied, "I can't swim a lick."

This is interesting of itself, but even more notable by the fact that among all the heroes of the first Sammy B, GM3 Paul Henry Carr was awared the Silver Star for his actions as the gun captain for the Sammy B
s 5" gun.  GM3 Carr and his crew fired 352 rounds in 35 minutes, and were all killed or wounded as their second to last shell cooked off in the tube as their fume extractor was destroyed.  GM3 Carr was found, in his last minutes, gripping the final 5" round of the ship, asking for help to load it.

Link Posted: 10/26/2010 7:52:14 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/26/2010 7:58:33 PM EDT by FAIL-SAFE]
Originally Posted By raven:
I'm sorry, 'Taffy Three'?  Could they have picked a gayer name?  Was 'Rampage Three' taken?


They could've called it raven 3.  Gay enough for you?
Link Posted: 10/26/2010 7:52:21 PM EDT
The Japanese can talk up their fighting spirit all they want.  They can't hold a candle to the fighting spirit of those men.
Link Posted: 10/26/2010 7:57:50 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/26/2010 7:59:16 PM EDT by FAIL-SAFE]
Link Posted: 10/26/2010 8:05:00 PM EDT
I wouldn't be here if it weren't for those guys. My grandfather was on one of the troop ships.



Dusty in here all of a sudden...




Link Posted: 10/26/2010 8:06:58 PM EDT
Sometimes nothin is a cool hand.
Link Posted: 10/26/2010 8:09:47 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Screechjet1:
Originally Posted By Seansworth:
Originally Posted By Nick710:
Originally Posted By PlaneJane:
Originally Posted By Nick710:
Ernest Evans is from Pawnee, Oklahoma over in the next county. Unfortunately, there's not much of a monument to him over there.

What the hell is wrong with those people?  That guy got The Medal for crossing the T on a line of IJN cruisers with an already shot to shit destroyer.  People who just won't quit are a really emotional thing for me; I can't think about Ernest Evans for more than a couple seconds before I start to tear up.

Jane



My thoughts exactly Jane. There should be a huge memorial just to him. There is a war memorial, and his name in on a brick in the ground as a MOH recipient, but that's all I could find.


Do you know what cemetery he is at?  I'd like to stop by and see it.


Likely about 30 miles off Samar in about 1000 fathoms.  He likely commanded the abandonment of the Johnson, but was wounded and likely died in the water.


Captain Evans is memorialized at the Tablets of the Missing at the Manila American Cemetery

http://www.findagrave.com/cgi-bin/fg.cgi?page=gr&GRid=8108825
Link Posted: 10/26/2010 8:18:12 PM EDT
Originally Posted By raven:
I'm sorry, 'Taffy Three'?  Could they have picked a gayer name?  Was 'Rampage Three' taken?



Really??!!  All this discussion about an amazing example of bravery and the fighting spirit of the US navy, and all you can comment on is that you think the name is gay??  

Shame.


Link Posted: 10/26/2010 8:19:15 PM EDT
Originally Posted By GarandM1:

Originally Posted By dispatch55126:
If I remember correctly, Taffy Three forced the Imperial Fleet to turn around.  They figured that there was no way that these destroyers were fighting so hard if there wasn't a larger American fleet backing them up.

That is correct.  Vice Adm. Kurita was afraid his force would get destroyed –– he had already lost the Musashi –– and so he didn't press the attack.

One of those key moments of warfare that decides an entire battle.
 


The way I read it was that he lost his nerve at the sight of the few aircraft attacking him with minimal effect which was a result of his flagship being sunk by aircraft during the Battle of the Sibuyan Sea a few days earlier.  This caused him to halt the attack.  He then regained his nerve but realized he had withdrawn from the battle for too long to reengage (this is how he saw it, anyways) and to avoid the fleet carriers and get home decided to just withdraw.  If he had not lost his nerve the Japanese likely would have won that battle.  Kurita probably would have been able to defeat the battle line of the 7th Fleet as he had fast battleships and that battleline was composed of the obsolete older battleships that had just fought in the Surigao Strait.  The plan was to try to beat Kurita to the entrance to Leyte Gulf and cap his T.  

Another mistake Kurita made was to order a general attack rather than to form a battle line and send his destroyers in advance for torpedo attacks.  He also did not try to close quickly and went out of his way to avoid rain squalls.  Had he not made these mistakes he likely would have made short work of the American force.  It is amazing how close to defeat we came in this engagement.  Ozawa after his decoy carriers were destroyed actually came close to engaging in a surface action with Halsey's force.  He sent two battleship-carriers (hybrids) with some other ships on a sweep south  and turned back shortly before running into Halsey's cruiser line.  Had Ozawa defeat the cruiser line he would have shortly afterwards run into the fleet carriers.  It could have gotten ugly.  Halsey also was indecisive about sending his fast battle line to help the 7th Fleet and in the end only sent part of it down.  They barely missed Kurita's retreating force and engaged the tail end of it as it withdrew.  They would have been quite outnumbered if they had gotten there first.
Link Posted: 10/26/2010 8:26:43 PM EDT
Originally Posted By raven:
I'm sorry, 'Taffy Three'?  Could they have picked a gayer name?  Was 'Rampage Three' taken?


Well, since you asked such an important question...Taffy Three is shortened from Task Force Three.

Link Posted: 10/26/2010 9:08:02 PM EDT
Originally Posted By bigstick61:
Originally Posted By GarandM1:


The way I read it was that he lost his nerve at the sight of the few aircraft attacking him with minimal effect which was a result of his flagship being sunk by aircraft during the Battle of the Sibuyan Sea a few days earlier.  This caused him to halt the attack.  He then regained his nerve but realized he had withdrawn from the battle for too long to reengage (this is how he saw it, anyways) and to avoid the fleet carriers and get home decided to just withdraw.  If he had not lost his nerve the Japanese likely would have won that battle.  Kurita probably would have been able to defeat the battle line of the 7th Fleet as he had fast battleships and that battleline was composed of the obsolete older battleships that had just fought in the Surigao Strait.  The plan was to try to beat Kurita to the entrance to Leyte Gulf and cap his T.  

Another mistake Kurita made was to order a general attack rather than to form a battle line and send his destroyers in advance for torpedo attacks.  He also did not try to close quickly and went out of his way to avoid rain squalls.  Had he not made these mistakes he likely would have made short work of the American force.  It is amazing how close to defeat we came in this engagement.  Ozawa after his decoy carriers were destroyed actually came close to engaging in a surface action with Halsey's force.  He sent two battleship-carriers (hybrids) with some other ships on a sweep south  and turned back shortly before running into Halsey's cruiser line.  Had Ozawa defeat the cruiser line he would have shortly afterwards run into the fleet carriers.  It could have gotten ugly.  Halsey also was indecisive about sending his fast battle line to help the 7th Fleet and in the end only sent part of it down.  They barely missed Kurita's retreating force and engaged the tail end of it as it withdrew.  They would have been quite outnumbered if they had gotten there first.


Where did you find this? Everything I`ve read stated  Halsey was in his flagship New Jersey with Admiral Lee`s battleline ahead of the fast carriers to engage the northern force until specifically recalled by Nimitz. None of he books I`ve read stated he got anywhere near Ozawa`s surviving surface ships. Also the modern battleships , TF 34, never got close enough to San Bernadino Strait to cut off Kurita` retreat.
Link Posted: 10/27/2010 3:22:16 AM EDT
At the Pawnee County Courthouse, in Pawnee, Oklahoma, there is a war memorial. Various displays reflect the names of the county residents who served in the wars. Near one such display in a small area with a stone in the ground marked "Medal of Honor", below that is a small brick with Cdr. Evans name inscribed. Another brick reflects the name of a Pawnee warrior who was awarded the medal during the civil war.

A pitiful honor for such a courageous man. There should be a much larger memorial, and there may be, just not at the Courthouse war memorial. If there is another memorial to Cdr. Evans, I'm not aware of it.

As noted earlier, Cdr. Evans went down with his ship.  There may be a marker at Arlington.
Link Posted: 10/27/2010 3:34:23 AM EDT
Originally Posted By arbob:
Originally Posted By bigstick61:
Originally Posted By GarandM1:


The way I read it was that he lost his nerve at the sight of the few aircraft attacking him with minimal effect which was a result of his flagship being sunk by aircraft during the Battle of the Sibuyan Sea a few days earlier.  This caused him to halt the attack.  He then regained his nerve but realized he had withdrawn from the battle for too long to reengage (this is how he saw it, anyways) and to avoid the fleet carriers and get home decided to just withdraw.  If he had not lost his nerve the Japanese likely would have won that battle.  Kurita probably would have been able to defeat the battle line of the 7th Fleet as he had fast battleships and that battleline was composed of the obsolete older battleships that had just fought in the Surigao Strait.  The plan was to try to beat Kurita to the entrance to Leyte Gulf and cap his T.  

Another mistake Kurita made was to order a general attack rather than to form a battle line and send his destroyers in advance for torpedo attacks.  He also did not try to close quickly and went out of his way to avoid rain squalls.  Had he not made these mistakes he likely would have made short work of the American force.  It is amazing how close to defeat we came in this engagement.  Ozawa after his decoy carriers were destroyed actually came close to engaging in a surface action with Halsey's force.  He sent two battleship-carriers (hybrids) with some other ships on a sweep south  and turned back shortly before running into Halsey's cruiser line.  Had Ozawa defeat the cruiser line he would have shortly afterwards run into the fleet carriers.  It could have gotten ugly.  Halsey also was indecisive about sending his fast battle line to help the 7th Fleet and in the end only sent part of it down.  They barely missed Kurita's retreating force and engaged the tail end of it as it withdrew.  They would have been quite outnumbered if they had gotten there first.


Where did you find this? Everything I`ve read stated  Halsey was in his flagship New Jersey with Admiral Lee`s battleline ahead of the fast carriers to engage the northern force until specifically recalled by Nimitz. None of he books I`ve read stated he got anywhere near Ozawa`s surviving surface ships. Also the modern battleships , TF 34, never got close enough to San Bernadino Strait to cut off Kurita` retreat.


An older book on Leyte Gulf.  It stated that Ozawa late in the day sent his capital ships down for a sweep to try to catch something and maybe go down fighting but eventually changed his mind, ordered them back, and continued the withdrawal; they apparently came very close to running into the American fleet, unbeknownst to both sides at the time.  The cruiser line supporting the carriers had been sent north to finish off cripples with gunfire to include at least one carrier.  And I did not mean they were close to Halsey personally but rather the 3rd Fleet's carriers.  The book actually made note of the fact that Halsey's decisions robbed the fast battleships of the chance of either engaging Ozawa or Kurita.  Regarding the engagement with Kurita's forces you are right they did not cut them off and I never said that.  They caught the tail end of his force.  At least one of Kurita's destroyers was sunk.
Link Posted: 10/27/2010 5:00:32 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/27/2010 5:02:26 AM EDT by Curio_Bill]


Best quote from that show was made when comparing the Yamato to a destroyer escort like the Samuel B. = "It had no business being in the same ocean as the Yamato". THAT is how lopsided a battle it was!!! Comparable to a couple of A10 warthogs flying up against a Nimitz class task force by themselves.
Link Posted: 10/27/2010 6:33:01 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/27/2010 6:49:29 AM EDT by redleg13a]
BigStick, are you talking about Task Group 77.2 commanded by RDML Oldendorf?  If so, even if Kurita's fast battleships, which with the exception of Yamato were old,  would have engaged Oldendorf's battleships, the outcome probably would have been decided by whichever side got the first good hits in.  The Americans had three old battleships, West Virginia, Tennesee and California, that had been completely rebuilt following Pearl Harbor.  Their upgrades included brand new fire control systems to include radar.  The Japanese force did not have equivalent radar and thereby would have been at a severe disadvantage.  As the battle historically developed, the Americans detected the Japanese ships at over 40,000 yards and had firing solutions at 30,000.  This was within the range of the Japanese guns but they would have had a much more difficult time getting accurate firing data due to their inferior fire control equipment.  For the most part, they still relied on optical equipment to provide accurate ranges for firing solutions.  The Americans would have been able to fire accurately sooner than the Japanese.  

IIRC, the Americans were short on AP ammunition but they should have had enough to fight the Japanese main battle line.  If the Yamato could have closed the distance without taking too many high angle hits, she could have inflicted severe damage on the American ships.  The old American battleships were not armored to withstand 18 inch shellfire and any hits from Yamato would probably have been devastating.  Nagato with her 16 inch guns might have been resisted but the Americans would have still taken severe damage if she would have hit them.  However, I imagine the Americans would have been able to get the first hits in and would have been able to keep getting hits before the Japanese could get firing solutions.  

Maryland, Mississippi and Pennsylvania would have had the hardest time getting a firing solution.  They had older fire control systems since they hadn't been as heavily damaged at Pearl Harbor (Mississippi hadn't been there at all) and hadn't been through as extensive modernization as the others.  However, once the ranges closed, they still had the added advantage of radar fire control, even if it was older systems.  This doesn't take into account the heavy and light cruisers and destroyers who also had more modern fire control radar.  In the end, I believe the Americans still would have won the battle.
Link Posted: 10/27/2010 6:39:33 AM EDT
Excellent analysis RedLeg, thanks for contributing

(Saw your folks the other day, they sure do keep busy)

Stay safe over there.
Link Posted: 10/27/2010 6:44:48 AM EDT
Originally Posted By redleg13a:
Are you talking about Task Group 77.2 commanded by RDML Oldendorf?  If so, even if Kurita's fast battleships would have engaged Oldendorf's battleships, the outcome probably would have been decided by whichever side got the first good hits in.  The Americans had three old battleships, West Virginia, Tennesee and California, that had been completely rebuilt following Pearl Harbor.  Their upgrades included brand new fire control systems to include radar.  The Japanese force did not have equivalent radar and thereby would have been at a severe disadvantage.  As the battle historically developed, the Americans detected the Japanese ships at over 40,000 yards and had firing solutions at 30,000.  This was within the range of the Japanese guns but they would have had a much more difficult time getting accurate firing data due to their inferior fire control equipment.  For the most part, they still relied on optical equipment to provide accurate ranges for firing solutions.  The Americans would have been able to fire accurately sooner than the Japanese.  

IIRC, the Americans were short on AP ammunition but they should have had enough to fight the Japanese main battle line.  If the Yamato could have closed the distance without taking too many high angle hits, she could have inflicted severe damage on the American ships.  The old American battleships were not armored to withstand 18 inch shellfire and any hits from Yamato would probably have been devastating.  Nagato with her 16 inch guns might have been resisted but the Americans would have still taken severe damage if she would have hit them.  However, I imagine the Americans would have been able to get the first hits in and would have been able to keep getting hits before the Japanese could get firing solutions.  

Maryland, Mississippi and Pennsylvania would have had the hardest time getting a firing solution.  They had older fire control systems since they hadn't been as heavily damaged at Pearl Harbor (Mississippi hadn't been there at all) and hadn't been through as extensive modernization as the others.  However, once the ranges closed, they still had the added advantage of radar fire control, even if it was older systems.  This doesn't take into account the heavy and light cruisers and destroyers who also had more modern fire control radar.  In the end, I believe the Americans still would have won the battle.


Considering Oldendorf's mauling of the Japanese southern pincher, I have no doubt that had he been engaged a second time, even if surprised (which would have been unlikely, but possible) Oldendorf would have put a pasting on the Japanese, as the Japanese were eating into their bunkers considerably in the fight against Taffy 3 (and potentially, Taffy 2).

However, Oldendorf's mauling would have been cold comfort to Taffy 2 and 3, and their destruction would have counted as one of the greatest defeats of the Pacific.
Link Posted: 10/27/2010 6:48:24 AM EDT
Great thread thanks for reminding us.
Link Posted: 10/27/2010 7:01:33 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Nick710:
Excellent analysis RedLeg, thanks for contributing

(Saw your folks the other day, they sure do keep busy)

Stay safe over there.


They sure do.  They are busier now than when they were working!

Thanks, I appreciate it.
Link Posted: 10/27/2010 8:42:36 AM EDT
Originally Posted By raven:
I'm sorry, 'Taffy Three'?  Could they have picked a gayer name?  Was 'Rampage Three' taken?


Yes, the could have called it raven three. That would be uberghey.
Link Posted: 10/27/2010 8:47:32 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Screechjet1:
Originally Posted By redleg13a:
Are you talking about Task Group 77.2 commanded by RDML Oldendorf?  If so, even if Kurita's fast battleships would have engaged Oldendorf's battleships, the outcome probably would have been decided by whichever side got the first good hits in.  The Americans had three old battleships, West Virginia, Tennesee and California, that had been completely rebuilt following Pearl Harbor.  Their upgrades included brand new fire control systems to include radar.  The Japanese force did not have equivalent radar and thereby would have been at a severe disadvantage.  As the battle historically developed, the Americans detected the Japanese ships at over 40,000 yards and had firing solutions at 30,000.  This was within the range of the Japanese guns but they would have had a much more difficult time getting accurate firing data due to their inferior fire control equipment.  For the most part, they still relied on optical equipment to provide accurate ranges for firing solutions.  The Americans would have been able to fire accurately sooner than the Japanese.  

IIRC, the Americans were short on AP ammunition but they should have had enough to fight the Japanese main battle line.  If the Yamato could have closed the distance without taking too many high angle hits, she could have inflicted severe damage on the American ships.  The old American battleships were not armored to withstand 18 inch shellfire and any hits from Yamato would probably have been devastating.  Nagato with her 16 inch guns might have been resisted but the Americans would have still taken severe damage if she would have hit them.  However, I imagine the Americans would have been able to get the first hits in and would have been able to keep getting hits before the Japanese could get firing solutions.  

Maryland, Mississippi and Pennsylvania would have had the hardest time getting a firing solution.  They had older fire control systems since they hadn't been as heavily damaged at Pearl Harbor (Mississippi hadn't been there at all) and hadn't been through as extensive modernization as the others.  However, once the ranges closed, they still had the added advantage of radar fire control, even if it was older systems.  This doesn't take into account the heavy and light cruisers and destroyers who also had more modern fire control radar.  In the end, I believe the Americans still would have won the battle.


Considering Oldendorf's mauling of the Japanese southern pincher, I have no doubt that had he been engaged a second time, even if surprised (which would have been unlikely, but possible) Oldendorf would have put a pasting on the Japanese, as the Japanese were eating into their bunkers considerably in the fight against Taffy 3 (and potentially, Taffy 2).

However, Oldendorf's mauling would have been cold comfort to Taffy 2 and 3, and their destruction would have counted as one of the greatest defeats of the Pacific.


Oldendorf would have had a hard time with Kurita's force, since he used up most of his AP rounds the night before. Remember, his BBs were there for NGFS and were armed mostly with HE rounds. He was short on AP to begin with.
Link Posted: 10/27/2010 8:51:47 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/27/2010 9:03:05 AM EDT by mjcOH1]
Originally Posted By Aloxite:
The Japanese can talk up their fighting spirit all they want.  They can't hold a candle to the fighting spirit of those men.


I'm not sure I'd go quite that far.   All of the escort carriers came under kamikaze attack....all but Fenshaw Bay were damaged.   St Lo was lost to a Zero punching through her deck and detonating her torpedo magazine.

The irony is that they didn't expect the American ships to be on a suicide mission.... but they were.    Kurita didn't think he could punch through and engage the heavies before losing his force ...... but there were no heavies.   He hadn't considered the possibility of an American suicide attack.

The Japanese were on a suicide mission, but they had company.   No shortage of guts displayed on either side.
Link Posted: 10/27/2010 8:52:29 AM EDT
Great Story.
And a nice reminder that we take our ownership of the seas for granted today.  It wasn't always that way.
Link Posted: 10/27/2010 8:54:36 AM EDT
A truly amazing story, the odds were enormously stacked against them. It has a "300 Spartans" on the high seas feel to it.
Link Posted: 10/27/2010 8:55:48 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/27/2010 8:56:38 AM EDT by Screechjet1]
Originally Posted By dport:
Originally Posted By Screechjet1:
Originally Posted By redleg13a:
Are you talking about Task Group 77.2 commanded by RDML Oldendorf?  If so, even if Kurita's fast battleships would have engaged Oldendorf's battleships, the outcome probably would have been decided by whichever side got the first good hits in.  The Americans had three old battleships, West Virginia, Tennesee and California, that had been completely rebuilt following Pearl Harbor.  Their upgrades included brand new fire control systems to include radar.  The Japanese force did not have equivalent radar and thereby would have been at a severe disadvantage.  As the battle historically developed, the Americans detected the Japanese ships at over 40,000 yards and had firing solutions at 30,000.  This was within the range of the Japanese guns but they would have had a much more difficult time getting accurate firing data due to their inferior fire control equipment.  For the most part, they still relied on optical equipment to provide accurate ranges for firing solutions.  The Americans would have been able to fire accurately sooner than the Japanese.  

IIRC, the Americans were short on AP ammunition but they should have had enough to fight the Japanese main battle line.  If the Yamato could have closed the distance without taking too many high angle hits, she could have inflicted severe damage on the American ships.  The old American battleships were not armored to withstand 18 inch shellfire and any hits from Yamato would probably have been devastating.  Nagato with her 16 inch guns might have been resisted but the Americans would have still taken severe damage if she would have hit them.  However, I imagine the Americans would have been able to get the first hits in and would have been able to keep getting hits before the Japanese could get firing solutions.  

Maryland, Mississippi and Pennsylvania would have had the hardest time getting a firing solution.  They had older fire control systems since they hadn't been as heavily damaged at Pearl Harbor (Mississippi hadn't been there at all) and hadn't been through as extensive modernization as the others.  However, once the ranges closed, they still had the added advantage of radar fire control, even if it was older systems.  This doesn't take into account the heavy and light cruisers and destroyers who also had more modern fire control radar.  In the end, I believe the Americans still would have won the battle.


Considering Oldendorf's mauling of the Japanese southern pincher, I have no doubt that had he been engaged a second time, even if surprised (which would have been unlikely, but possible) Oldendorf would have put a pasting on the Japanese, as the Japanese were eating into their bunkers considerably in the fight against Taffy 3 (and potentially, Taffy 2).

However, Oldendorf's mauling would have been cold comfort to Taffy 2 and 3, and their destruction would have counted as one of the greatest defeats of the Pacific.


Oldendorf would have had a hard time with Kurita's force, since he used up most of his AP rounds the night before. Remember, his BBs were there for NGFS and were armed mostly with HE rounds. He was short on AP to begin with.


The Japanese were going through their fuel though, at a high rate.  I don't know how much it would have effected their manuver considerations, but I think that the Taffy air wings that were diverting to the land bases around Leyte would have denied Kurita's force surprise.  Unlike with Taffy 3, Kurita would have likely had to ingress into his engagement envelope under fairly constant air attack.  They would have either had to maintain their speed to minimize their exposure, turned to the east to get out of land based air range, or both.

Kurita would have also been on the horns of a dilemma regarding Taffy 1 and 2.  If he would have pursued and sunk them, as he potentially could have, he would have scored a victory that wouldn't have stopped the Leyte landings at all.  Had he gone for Leyte, he would have left a significant amount of air able to operate against him.

JMO.
Link Posted: 10/27/2010 9:05:02 AM EDT
I just remembered something interesting regarding this battle.  My wife's uncle was in the 96th Division, the Deadeyes, during the war, and he and I were talking one time.  He mentioned that after they landed on Leyte, they got up into the hills and then stopped.  They were told to turn around and dig in because the Japs were going to come in behind them, shoot up the transports and possibly land.  He said there was a big naval battle and that stopped them.  That's when I told him about the Hoel, Johnston, Gambier Bay, etc. and how they fought a delaying action and stopped the Japanese from coming in.  He was amazed that I knew about the battle and was very appreciative that someone wanted to talk to him about his experience.  His kids didn't care.  I was the only one he could really talk to about it and we did whenever I saw him.  I really enjoyed spending time with him.  He's gone now, unfortunately.  

He lost a leg at Okinawa when a Jap tank shot him with it's main gun.  He spent two days laying on the ground before anyone found him.  

He remembered his M1 serial number too.  Unfortunately, he died before I knew about the CMP and I don't remember what the number was now.  I wish I did so I could try to find it.  That would really be something if I did!
Link Posted: 10/27/2010 9:10:33 AM EDT
The Surface Navy approves of this thread.

I am a bit ashamed of my Navy though. Heros like Carr have ships named for them. Evans does not. He deserves it in my never to be humble opinion.
Link Posted: 10/27/2010 9:26:28 AM EDT
Originally Posted By gs1150:
They had the BALLS to get so close as to get "Under" the Japanese guns.
They kept at it until they couldn't keep at it anymore.
They gave everything they had, then gave some more.


And then the survivors spent hours in shark-infested water before they were rescued.  Many of the survivors died, years later, still bitter about how long it took for them to be rescued and the fact that so many Sailors survived the battle only to be killed by sharks.
Link Posted: 10/27/2010 9:28:57 AM EDT
Originally Posted By dport:
The Surface Navy approves of this thread.

I am a bit ashamed of my Navy though. Heros like Carr have ships named for them. Evans does not. He deserves it in my never to be humble opinion.


There was an USS Ernest Evans, a DE built in the 1950s.
Link Posted: 10/27/2010 9:30:45 AM EDT
Originally Posted By whoanelly:
Originally Posted By gs1150:
They had the BALLS to get so close as to get "Under" the Japanese guns.
They kept at it until they couldn't keep at it anymore.
They gave everything they had, then gave some more.


And then the survivors spent hours in shark-infested water before they were rescued.  Many of the survivors died, years later, still bitter about how long it took for them to be rescued and the fact that so many Sailors survived the battle only to be killed by sharks.


Personnel recovery in the Navy was laughable in WWII.  Not from lack of trying, but from any real doctrine to do it, lousy communications and general malaise.

In the Merchant Marine, your pay stopped if your ship was torpedoed, or you were captured.  Many things about the good old days weren't.
Link Posted: 10/27/2010 9:34:04 AM EDT
One of the books I read about this battle...it might have been Last Stand of the Tin Can Sailors said that the aircraft on our Escort Carriers were armed for ground support duty when the Japs attacked. Of course, there was no time to rearm for anti-shipping combat.  So, they took off to attack the Jap battlewagons, cruisers and destroyers with anti-personnel weapons.  When our pilots ran out of ammo, they resorted to making fake attack runs on the Jap ships.  The Japs didn't know our guys were out of ammo and would attempt to evade the "torpedos" and "bombs" we dropped.  Anything to disrupt the Jap attack on our ships.  One pilot resorted to pulling out his revolver and shooting at a ship as he flew over it and another took anything he could out of his cockpit and threw it at the Japs!
Link Posted: 10/27/2010 9:58:52 AM EDT
Some of them dropped depth charges on the Japs!  GP bombs wouldn't do enough damage to sink Japanese capital ships but they would tear up a destroyer and the superstructure of the larger ships.  They would be devastating to the exposed anti-aircraft gun crews.
Link Posted: 10/27/2010 10:35:51 AM EDT
Originally Posted By redleg13a:
Some of them dropped depth charges on the Japs!  GP bombs wouldn't do enough damage to sink Japanese capital ships but they would tear up a destroyer and the superstructure of the larger ships.  They would be devastating to the exposed anti-aircraft gun crews.


I was always interested in the BDA of the 5 inch rockets they fired.  That had to be among the first times a 5 inch rocket was used in an ASuW environment.
Link Posted: 10/27/2010 10:47:54 AM EDT
Data from "Two Ocean War" by S.E. Morrison

Link to source page on Battleship performance at Surigao is here:  http://www.navweaps.com/index_tech/tech-079.htm



US Battleship Ammunition at Surigao Strait
































































































































































Ship



Capacity



Total On-Board



AP



HC



Rounds Expended


(all AP)



West Virginia



800



375



200



175



93



Maryland



800



685



240



445



48



California



1200



318



240



78



63



Tennessee



1200



664



396



268



69



Mississippi



1200



744



201



543



12



Pennsylvania



1200



453



360



93



Did not fire
Link Posted: 10/27/2010 10:48:09 AM EDT
I've wondered that too.  I would think they could do some pretty good damage if they hit in unarmored areas.  They wouldn't do much to the armor belt of a cruiser or battleship, but against the superstructure it seems they could do substantial damage if enough of them hit in a concentrated area.  Again, against anti-aircraft gun crews, they would be devastating.
Link Posted: 10/27/2010 10:52:21 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/27/2010 10:57:03 AM EDT by redleg13a]
Originally Posted By WayneG:
Data from "Two Ocean War" by S.E. Morrison
Link to source page on Battleship performance at Surigao is here:  http://www.navweaps.com/index_tech/tech-079.htm

US Battleship Ammunition at Surigao Strait
Ship
Capacity
Total On-Board
AP
HC
Rounds Expended
(all AP)
West Virginia
800
375
200
175
93
Maryland
800
685
240
445
48
California
1200
318
240
78
63
Tennessee
1200
664
396
268
69
Mississippi
1200
744
201
543
12
Pennsylvania
1200
453
360
93
Did not fire


That's interesting information.  The US ships would have had to be careful with the ammunition expenditure and hope they got some good hits in before they ran out of ammunition.  Since the 3 modernized ships got early firing solutions, they most likely would have gotten good hits in early, especially since the West Virginia hit Fuso, I think, with the first salvo.  That's some mighty fine shooting, what we in the artillery call first round fire for effect.
Link Posted: 10/27/2010 10:53:02 AM EDT
Originally Posted By redleg13a:
I've wondered that too.  I would think they could do some pretty good damage if they hit in unarmored areas.  They wouldn't do much to the armor belt of a cruiser or battleship, but against the superstructure it seems they could do substantial damage if enough of them hit in a concentrated area.  Again, against anti-aircraft gun crews, they would be devastating.


The bad thing I would think would be the penetration into the interior of the ship, and IJN ships were generally not built to the same D/C standards of American ships.
Link Posted: 10/27/2010 10:56:27 AM EDT
Link Posted: 10/27/2010 10:58:57 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Screechjet1:
Originally Posted By redleg13a:
I've wondered that too.  I would think they could do some pretty good damage if they hit in unarmored areas.  They wouldn't do much to the armor belt of a cruiser or battleship, but against the superstructure it seems they could do substantial damage if enough of them hit in a concentrated area.  Again, against anti-aircraft gun crews, they would be devastating.


The bad thing I would think would be the penetration into the interior of the ship, and IJN ships were generally not built to the same D/C standards of American ships.


Their damage control was not nearly as good as ours either.  Example would be the Japanese carriers at Midway, the Shinano and the Taiho.  Their crews were not as well trained in damage control as ours were, and are.
Link Posted: 10/27/2010 12:03:30 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Screechjet1:

The successor to the Sammy B. was another Sammy B. that was nearly sunk by an Iranian mine.

From wiki...

The frigate deployed from its home port in Newport, Rhode Island in January 1988, heading for the Persian Gulf to participate in Operation Earnest Will, the escort of reflagged Kuwaiti tankers during the Iran–Iraq War. The Roberts had arrived in the Persian Gulf and was heading for a refueling rendezvous on April 14 when the ship struck an M-08 naval mine in the central Persian Gulf, an area it had safely transited a few days previously. The mine blew a 15-foot (5 m) hole in the hull, flooded the engine room, and knocked the two gas turbines from their mounts. The blast also broke the keel of the ship; such structural damage is almost always fatal to most vessels. The crew fought fire and flooding for five hours and saved the ship. Ten sailors were medevaced for injuries sustained in the blast, six returned to the Roberts in a day or so. Four burn victims were sent for treatment to a military hospital in Germany, and eventually to medical facilities in the United States


The second Sammy B., FFG-58 had a plaque amidships that commemorated its namesake, DE-413.  It was the focal point for ship activities like reenlistments and promotions. When the Sammy B was hit, as the damage control parties raced past the plaque, the Captain noticed that the crew was touching the plaque for luck.

The successful damage control of the second Sammy B. was made possible by the work of an Sailor untrained in the generators he was keeping on line.  The Sailor, by the name of Carr, was a frequent flyer at Captain's Mast.  When asked by the Captain when the ship was safe, how he could keep the generators online, he replied, "I can't swim a lick."


This is interesting of itself, but even more notable by the fact that among all the heroes of the first Sammy B, GM3 Paul Henry Carr was awared the Silver Star for his actions as the gun captain for the Sammy B
s 5" gun.  GM3 Carr and his crew fired 352 rounds in 35 minutes, and were all killed or wounded as their second to last shell cooked off in the tube as their fume extractor was destroyed.  GM3 Carr was found, in his last minutes, gripping the final 5" round of the ship, asking for help to load it.




Thanks for posting that.

I've heard the story of GM3 Carr but hadn't heard the story of the FFG-58 Carr.
Link Posted: 10/27/2010 12:13:10 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Nick710:
At the Pawnee County Courthouse, in Pawnee, Oklahoma, there is a war memorial. Various displays reflect the names of the county residents who served in the wars. Near one such display in a small area with a stone in the ground marked "Medal of Honor", below that is a small brick with Cdr. Evans name inscribed. Another brick reflects the name of a Pawnee warrior who was awarded the medal during the civil war.

A pitiful honor for such a courageous man. There should be a much larger memorial, and there may be, just not at the Courthouse war memorial. If there is another memorial to Cdr. Evans, I'm not aware of it.

As noted earlier, Cdr. Evans went down with his ship.  There may be a marker at Arlington.


His memorial marker is in Manila.

http://www.homeofheroes.com/gravesites/abmc/abmc_wwi2_pacific.html

http://www.abmc.gov/cemeteries/cemeteries/ml.php
Link Posted: 10/27/2010 1:26:56 PM EDT
Originally Posted By mjcOH1:
Originally Posted By Aloxite:
The Japanese can talk up their fighting spirit all they want.  They can't hold a candle to the fighting spirit of those men.


I'm not sure I'd go quite that far.   All of the escort carriers came under kamikaze attack....all but Fenshaw Bay were damaged.   St Lo was lost to a Zero punching through her deck and detonating her torpedo magazine.

The irony is that they didn't expect the American ships to be on a suicide mission.... but they were.    Kurita didn't think he could punch through and engage the heavies before losing his force ...... but there were no heavies.   He hadn't considered the possibility of an American suicide attack.

The Japanese were on a suicide mission, but they had company.   No shortage of guts displayed on either side.


I have often read/heard of Kurita's "timidity" in not pressing home his attack on the landing fleet and I have always been puzzled by that, especially since the stated mission for the Yamato & the rest of Kurita's force is so often referred to as a "kamikaze" mission since they were low on fuel.

Link Posted: 10/27/2010 1:44:06 PM EDT
Originally Posted By gwitness:
Great book....also check out "Little Wolf at Leyte" focuses on the Samuel  B Roberts.
Sea of Thunder has a focus on several  Commanders, including Evans.

There is also a book written by Copeland.."Spirit of the Sammy B"


'Sea of Thunder' is an excellent book and a great overview of the strategic action.

Link Posted: 10/27/2010 5:12:27 PM EDT
A 'Sound General Quarters!"  bump for these heros!
Link Posted: 10/27/2010 7:33:37 PM EDT
Originally Posted By RichR:
Originally Posted By gwitness:
Great book....also check out "Little Wolf at Leyte" focuses on the Samuel  B Roberts.
Sea of Thunder has a focus on several  Commanders, including Evans.

There is also a book written by Copeland.."Spirit of the Sammy B"


'Sea of Thunder' is an excellent book and a great overview of the strategic action.



About half way through it right now.
Link Posted: 10/27/2010 7:45:16 PM EDT
Originally Posted By mjcOH1:
Originally Posted By Aloxite:
The Japanese can talk up their fighting spirit all they want.  They can't hold a candle to the fighting spirit of those men.


I'm not sure I'd go quite that far.   All of the escort carriers came under kamikaze attack....all but Fenshaw Bay were damaged.   St Lo was lost to a Zero punching through her deck and detonating her torpedo magazine.

The irony is that they didn't expect the American ships to be on a suicide mission.... but they were.    Kurita didn't think he could punch through and engage the heavies before losing his force ...... but there were no heavies.   He hadn't considered the possibility of an American suicide attack.

The Japanese were on a suicide mission, but they had company.   No shortage of guts displayed on either side.


I wouldn't call it a "suicide attack".......They knew the risks of failure and fought hard to prevent  Kurita  from breaking through to the Leyte landings. They died fighting....but suicide it was not.
Page / 3
Top Top