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Link Posted: 5/28/2008 12:12:45 PM EDT
gendel



pwn 3
Link Posted: 5/28/2008 1:00:21 PM EDT

Quoted:

I like the idea of 5.56 for practice...but why for home defense? Overpenetration issues?


Yep, overpenetration. Forest (on AR15.com) pointed me in the right direction. At hallway distances the Hornady 5.56 75gr TAP round with the T2 bullet really gets the job done, yet has less overpenetration in all instances than the Hornady 6.8SPC 110gr VMax loading.
Link Posted: 5/28/2008 1:15:22 PM EDT

Quoted:

Quoted:

I think the 6.8 is better for CQB and for 100 yard deer hunting range.

How, exactly?

*****************************­****************************************
<­BR>6.5 beats 6.8 all the way around.  

The main reason 6.8 has received the high volume of favorable official military attention it has is because of people like Barrett who are all "mobbed up" with their Pentagon political connections.  It's not nearly as easy for Alexander to play the graft and corruption games with the crooks in the Pentagon that the supporters of the 6.8 can, since they're the spoiled, petted darlings who've been supplying the military's .50 BMG sniper rifles for years.

Besides, I hate the .270 caliber anyway, Jack O'Connor's moldy corpse be damned.  All the brouhaha surrounding the .270 Winchester over the years is 90% hype, just like all the brouhaha about the 6.8 SPC.

Well there is the source of the disagreement.  I like Jack O'Conner and the .270 (I refuse to hunt deer with any other rifle).

I do like the 6.5 though, it is a shame that more calibers of that bullet size haven't caught on here in America.
Link Posted: 5/28/2008 1:32:22 PM EDT

Quoted:

Quoted:
Wolf Gold SP and MPT, Alexander Arms TNT, SST, BT, Scenar and Scirocco...and Soon Fiocchi with 3-4 offerings...and Steel Cased Wolf too


Black Hills doesn't load any more?



Yes, I forgot

Link Posted: 5/30/2008 4:23:15 PM EDT
Grendel.
Link Posted: 6/2/2008 8:54:07 PM EDT
Well, it all depends on your intended use.

Infinite Ammo Fantasy Land = 6.5 Grendel
In a world where you'll have infinite ammo and no need for SHTF or other emergencies: 6.5 Grendel.  It is the better round from a ballistics point of view (that is fact, not opinion).

Real World need for improved performance = 6.8SPC
If you need better terminal performance than the .223/5.56mm and the availability of ammo, uppers, and other accessories is something you have to deal with, the the 6.8 SPC might be the better choice due to its availability.

SHTF, TEOTWAWKI, or Real World = .223/5.56
The 5.56 is the way to go for everything but specialized or more specific tasks (hunting larger or dangerous game / CQB).  Supplies are almost everywhere and the round is very flexible.  A 55 gr round for general plinking or a 62-80 gr round for real precision work (out to 700-900 yards for paper).  It is also the most cost effective and has the largest options for supplies and accessories.

The fact is we do live in the real world and while the 6.5 Grendel is great on paper and has the ballistics edge over both the 6.8 and the 5.56mm, it is also the hardest to find ammo, uppers, magazines, reloading equipment, and just about everything else for.

Just because one is a better round from a performance point of view, doesn't guarantee success or even a future.


Remember... BETA was better than VHS.  


Link Posted: 6/2/2008 9:16:41 PM EDT
I dida 6.8 but now I'm getting ready to build up a 6.5, and for some odd reason I kinda think it might be the better all around round.
Link Posted: 6/2/2008 9:43:37 PM EDT

Quoted:
Well, it all depends on your intended use.

Infinite Ammo Fantasy Land = 6.5 Grendel
In a world where you'll have infinite ammo and no need for SHTF or other emergencies: 6.5 Grendel.  It is the better round from a ballistics point of view (that is fact, not opinion).

Real World need for improved performance = 6.8SPC
If you need better terminal performance than the .223/5.56mm and the availability of ammo, uppers, and other accessories is something you have to deal with, the the 6.8 SPC might be the better choice due to its availability.

SHTF, TEOTWAWKI, or Real World = .223/5.56
The 5.56 is the way to go for everything but specialized or more specific tasks (hunting larger or dangerous game / CQB).  Supplies are almost everywhere and the round is very flexible.  A 55 gr round for general plinking or a 62-80 gr round for real precision work (out to 700-900 yards for paper).  It is also the most cost effective and has the largest options for supplies and accessories.

The fact is we do live in the real world and while the 6.5 Grendel is great on paper and has the ballistics edge over both the 6.8 and the 5.56mm, it is also the hardest to find ammo, uppers, magazines, reloading equipment, and just about everything else for.

Just because one is a better round from a performance point of view, doesn't guarantee success or even a future.


Remember... BETA was better than VHS.  




how is it harder to find a 6.5 upper?  you take an AR-15 upper reciever, take the bolt off the bolt carrier, put on the grendel bolt, and put on the grendel barrel.  looking into it it seems that most of the 6.5 barrel manufacturers are including bolts that have been headspaced to the barrels.  So all you  have left to do is spend a few minutes putting on the barrel.  Barrels are what's hard to find for 6.5 grendel.  I asked the DPMS guys at shot if they would do a 6.5 grendel ever and the guy said "We won't do anything in an oddball caliber people can't get ammo for" but they are building the AR-10 in 6.5 Creedmore...WTF?  If I start looking online i can find anything I need for the grendel, no problem whatsoever and personally I plan on stocking up bigtime on mags if I do get a grendel.  For right now, I'll stick  with 5.56...I just got a box of 64 grain Speer Gold Dot .223 at a match I shot and that is a great solution.  Supposed to open to .6 or so, go 14" into ballistics gel, and hold weight extremely well.  
Link Posted: 6/2/2008 9:46:47 PM EDT
6.8mm SPC , has more ammo options and places to purchase from.
Link Posted: 6/2/2008 9:47:28 PM EDT

Quoted:
6.8mm SPC , has more loaded ammo options and places to purchase from.
Link Posted: 6/2/2008 9:47:37 PM EDT
This topic is full of emotion, and deservedly so.

As I am a passionate fan of the 6.5PPC and the 6.5 SKAN.

The old 6.5X55 Swede in my less than humble opinion, is, was and will always be the best infantry rifle Cartridge ever fielded.

The only thing that comes close is the .276 Pederson that died in the womb of Springfield armory, with the sweeping decision of one general, who favored inventory of current stocks in the face of a global war.

The Grendel has a better case profile for a Military Cartridge, with it's greater shoulder angle, and case taper. It's damn close to the 6.5 PPC I tinkered with back in the late 80's.

The 6.8 has it's merits in availability while being a reasonably reliable comprimise.

Unfortunately the Market dictates that what sells the most, is more economical, and hence more "Viable".


I have 2 Grendels, an original PRI 6.8 SPC, and my own 6.5 PPC mutant.

Of the three, I am more often drawn to grabbing my old PRI, because of having cheaper already formed SPC Brass available should I loose fired brass in the weeds or on the range.


Trajectory differences are within a couple MOA, as are deflection differences out to 800M.

Given my druthers......

The 6.5 PPC/Grendel  would be as common as 30-06.

But then stuff happens.

I'll take the 6.8 for what it is.

An "Almost" 6.5 Swede that is an almost .276 Pederson, I can run through my beloved AR Carbine.

The Grendel is better, just like Beta was better than VHS.

And dammit, The 6.8 dosn't make me sweat over lost brass like my old 6.5 PPC.

Just my .02
S-28



Link Posted: 6/2/2008 9:51:22 PM EDT
Grendel
Link Posted: 6/3/2008 10:57:03 PM EDT
6.8.
Find me a 6.5 Grendel upper for $400 and I will reevaluate. I have been waiting a long while for the inexpensive uppers to appear.

Other problem for me is finding Grendel ammo locally. I can find one shop that carries Wolf but I am not a Wolf fan. 6.8 ammo is everywhere and the Hornady 110gr VMAX load is effective, accurate and well priced.

While the 6.8 has quite a few options in premium ammo, it lacks plinking rounds.

Nothing wrong with getting all three. :)
That's my 2cents.
Link Posted: 6/4/2008 3:48:26 PM EDT

Quoted:

Quoted:
6.8 SPC but since this is Arfcom get both.


+1
+106!


But then, I don't reload.
Link Posted: 6/4/2008 3:56:55 PM EDT
Hell all three are good, they just have a few differen't vertures.  Having two outta three isn't bad, leaves room for growth.
Link Posted: 6/4/2008 4:03:30 PM EDT
6.8 SPC
Link Posted: 6/4/2008 5:20:09 PM EDT

Quoted:
6.8 SPC


+1000

BTW, Lothar Walther has 400 grendel barrels that they can't market as a "Grendel" barrel because AA owns the trademark. Lothar is calling them 6.5CSS barrels and they have 400 finished on the shelf while there are people waiting 6 months to get a "Grendel" barrel that is half as good.  Come and get them while you can!!!

Profiteering (by you know who); never gets in the way of helping others out that want to get their rifles???

Lothar is going all out to produce the best 6.8 barrels available, conducting more test than any other maker ever has. That should have been done in the beginning.

Here is just part the field test:  

They are starting with 10 and 11 twist with the Saami and SPCII chambers and comparing those with actual pressure equipt.
They have gauged the bore and know that bores which are on the small side of the SAAMI bore spec causes high pressure. When you take a bore that is in spec and then chrome it then becomes under sized and increases pressure. So they are testing variables one at a time. They plan to test 12 and 14 twist, and 4 and 6 polygonal rifled bores similar to the Glock.
The steel they use comes from Germany and is different than the common 416 SS and 4140 or 4150 barrel steel.
In short they could be the strongest, longest lasting barrels made. Look down an unloaded Glock barrel and you can imagine the better gas seal which should get more velocity.

I'm sure the Grendle fans are seeing other 'Major' barrel manufactures actually testing their round...oops, it's franchised...oh well, maybe, Bill A will be able to make sure everyone is getting the most out of their 6.5G!

BTW, the 6.8 SPC can get over 3000fps from the 90g and 2800fps with the 110/115g rounds (IF YOU USE THE CORRECT TWIST/CHAMBER!!!) all the while shooting .5MOA.   I guess the 6.5G is a lot more accurate???

Cohibra45
Link Posted: 6/4/2008 6:09:24 PM EDT
Link Posted: 6/4/2008 6:10:05 PM EDT
Link Posted: 6/4/2008 6:12:57 PM EDT
Link Posted: 6/5/2008 12:15:47 PM EDT

Quoted:

Quoted:
IBTP

6.5G


ETA:

Wolf Gold doesn't produce 6.8 SPC, if that says anything...


says nothing.... but the specs on wolf ammo say all I want to know about NOT wanting it... its for the proverbial "internet dirt shooter".


PPU ammunition is for dirt shooters?
Link Posted: 6/5/2008 12:20:07 PM EDT
The 6.5 Grendel is probably a better all-around cartidge.

If it had been designed not by someone wanting to sell his own uppers, but by someone trying to get a great cartridge to market, the 6.5 would have been more successful, and the 6.8 might never have appeared at all.


Having said that, I have a 6.8, and it will do anything I need a rifle to do.

Link Posted: 6/5/2008 12:26:46 PM EDT
I was considering the 6.5 since it has better long range capabilities, but after reading Doc Roberts on the Tactical Forums decided on the 6.8.

The 6.5 is probably the best long range round for the standard AR platform.

But the design of the 6.8 makes for better reliability and it offers better terminal performance at typical engagment ranges.
Link Posted: 6/5/2008 1:00:27 PM EDT
Link Posted: 6/5/2008 1:04:37 PM EDT
The only reason not to go with 6.5 Grendel is that it's not as common as the 6.8 SPC.  It is superior in all other respects, IMO.  I voted Grendel.
Link Posted: 6/5/2008 1:09:47 PM EDT
There was some guy converting an SKS to 6.5 Grendel over on Weaponeer (i think it was 6.5)...

6.5 looks pretty cool in my book!
Link Posted: 6/5/2008 1:29:46 PM EDT
Link Posted: 6/5/2008 2:03:37 PM EDT
Link Posted: 6/5/2008 2:08:17 PM EDT

Quoted:

Quoted:
All accuracy, range, and ballistics give the nod to 6.5mm Grendel.


Based on what empirical data?

Does the Grendel user higher BC bullets - sure.

Does that automatically translate to better accuracy or terminal ballistics?  Nope.

Remember the 6.8 was designed as the BEST 'Combat' cartridge that would fit into an AR-15 platform.  Designed by a man at the tip of the spear.  During testing reliablity and terminal ballistics were a prime consideration.

The 6.5 was designed by paper punchers chasing mathematical optimizations of external ballistics.  Nothing wrong with that, but that isn't the mission the 6.8 was designed to fill.


That's my understanding, and that (along with cost/avalability) is why I'll go 6.8 first . . .

Even though historically I've had more need to punch paper than bad guys . . .
Link Posted: 6/5/2008 2:10:36 PM EDT

Quoted:
I will make one, exactly one, post in this topic.  It's a public forum and though I am very, very biased, I have a right to my opinion. You should at least be objective enough to get all your facts straight

1) This business about 6.5 Grendel being "more accurate" than 6.8 SPC is utter BS, posted, more often than not, by someone who has never fired a 6.8 in their life.

No argument, especially from the groups we see posted form your uppers. However, 6.5 uppers from current companies are more consistent in their performance than 6.8 uppers across companies. Buy any Grendel upper from AA, Les Baer, or Sabre and expect 1MOA with handloads.

Here's what came out of my 18" 6.8 hunting rig one morning when I was sighting-in ahead of deer season last year, from what I consider to be a service-grade barrel and SSA factory ammo:

ko-tonics.com/images/other/5-shot-half-inch-grp.jpg

2) If you want to shoot something at over 500 yards with a 6.5 Grendel, fine, it's a free country, knock yourself out.  But don't try to tell me that 6.5 Grendel is a GOOD CHOICE for shooting at anything but paper at long range.  6.5 Grendel (and I have a 6.5G bullet and case on my desk, BTW) has no more case capacity than 6.8, and you need large case capacity to drive bullets to high enough velocities to get a sufficiently flat trajectory and put enough energy on target to be truly useful.  Ballistic coefficients are directly related to velocity, and talk about high BC bullets when the bullet is barely doing 2,400 fps at the muzzle is bull crap.  Shoot paper at those distances, fine.  Shoot bad guys?  BS.  You are better off with a .308 or .260 Rem or .260 Creedmoore or 6.5x.284.

6.5G is a GOOD CHOICE for shooting long range, people and paper, in an *AR15*. It has never pretended to be anything more.

Right now there is only ONE AR-15 company that does NOT offer a 6.8 upper or rifle.  And you can get 6.8 in your mini-14, XCR, one of the Steyr AUG-alikes, and the SCAR and Masada when available.  You can buy 6.8 ammo from Remington, Silver State Armory, Hornady and Cor-Bon.  There are two companies making mags for 6.8.  On the other hand, there is more Internet support for 6.5 G than there is support in the real world.

Too bad you're not coming back to the thread or you'd find out that 6.8 and 6.5 mags are interchangeable.

And do a search for "6.5 Grendel bolt breakage".  There's a reason why the guys who designed 6.8 SPC REJECTED the 7.62x39 parent case before settling on 6.8.  The bolt face has to be opened up too much, leaving 40% of the bolt lugs on a thin wall.  That's why 6.5 G cartridges are loaded to LOWER PRESSURE (per Bill A's specs) than 6.8 SPC.  No, they didn't tell you that on the Grendel forum, did they?

Common knowledge and knowledge I learned on the Grendel board. 50Kpsi is max in an AR15. There haven't been any bolt breakage problems for people who stick to this.

I'm done, have fun. Thank you for stooping your dignity low enough to post in this thread
Link Posted: 6/5/2008 2:14:16 PM EDT
Link Posted: 6/5/2008 2:26:13 PM EDT
PPU is the headstamp for Prvi Partisan. I know you knew the diff. btw Russian steel and Wolf Gold; I just wanted to make sure. Nice shooting.
Link Posted: 6/5/2008 2:26:40 PM EDT
spc
Link Posted: 6/5/2008 2:27:11 PM EDT
Link Posted: 6/5/2008 2:31:21 PM EDT
The Grendel numbers look great on paper - but imho I do not feel that the AR is the best platform for >400 yards paper punching.  Realistically, I think when the zombies come out, the 6.8 will be the real world performance winner in real world ar usage (assault (not mbf)  ranges).

My humble understanding (which I have been corrected for, and then researched and still have) is that they had different design goals.  The 6.8 was to increase effectiveness within the 5.56's useful ranges.  The 6.5 was to increase the 5.56's to 7.62 effective ranges w/o decreasing it's effectiveness within the 5.56 ranges.
Link Posted: 6/5/2008 2:35:14 PM EDT
6.5 Grendel is better ballistically... And appears to have superior wounding abilities.

6.8 is cheaper and easier to support logistically.



5.56 is more than good enough as a general rule... I don't see 6.8 as worthwhile... And 6.5 only stands out because it's practically a freaking sniper round... But logistically I can't talk myself into it.
Link Posted: 6/5/2008 2:45:45 PM EDT
I'm curious.... where are the tests that show the 6.8 to be the better round at <400m?  

I'm hearing a lot of "designed to be the best for combat" and not a lot of "here's some ballistic gel pictures that shows the 6.8 is better."

I don't own either,  just curious what people are basing their opinions on.  
Link Posted: 6/5/2008 2:49:10 PM EDT

Quoted:
I'm curious.... where are the tests that show the 6.8 to be the better round at <400m?  

I'm hearing a lot of "designed to be the best for combat" and not a lot of "here's some ballistic gel pictures that shows the 6.8 is better."

I don't own either,  just curious what people are basing their opinions on.  


From what I've seen (and I have seen a 6.8 gel test, it's just been a while), it does make a larger wound.

But 6.5s is larger yet.

I just don't see the point to it... What makes 6.5 stand out is its range... And logistically it isn't practical.
Link Posted: 6/5/2008 3:30:00 PM EDT
Link Posted: 6/5/2008 4:41:52 PM EDT

Quoted:
Quoted:
[

From what I've seen (and I have seen a 6.8 gel test, it's just been a while), it does make a larger wound.

But 6.5s is larger yet.
[/qtuoe]
Incorrect.

6.8 is larger, though not dramatically more so.


Negative... It might be load dependent, but I do recall a comparison between the gel test of a 6.8SPC round (test done by a 6.8 manufacturer, not a competitor) and a 6.5 Grendel (test done by a 6.5 manufactuer, not a competitor)... The results were pretty obviously in Grendels favor... It yawed earlier, fragmented earlier, created a much larger cavity (both temporary and permanent), and still penetrated just as far as the 6.8 (completely through the block if I recall, so the point is moot, both obviously have sufficient penetration).

That was a few years ago... Maybe 6.8SPC has developed since... But early on, 6.8 was outclassed by Grendel, contrary to the internet rumors... It simply took forever for someone to finally have the bright idea to do gel tests on Grendel at the time, which gave the rumor footing.

It simply comes down to the shape of the bullet and its construction... The Grendel rounds are by nature long, with an extremely stretched ogive... The result is there is an extreme weight offset between the front of the round and the back... This is the fundamental cause of bullet tumble. There are more details to this that I won't go into at the moment... Basically, pretty much by accident, the Grendel has many terminal ballistic advantages over 6.8SPC.

The main problem with 6.5 isn't its wounding potential... Or its range (which is jaw dropping), but logistics... I don't think I need to upgrade from 5.56 anyway... Upgrading to a caliber difficult to support is not something I see as smart.


The 6.8 was picked for the SPC round over the 6.5 SPECIFICALLY because it made a larger cavity.


Apples to hand grenades... The 6.5 bullet tested for the SPC cartridge was of a much shorter OAL than those used in 6.5 Grendel... The result is less weight offset... Which results in crappier terminal effects.

It's all about the BC/Ogive.


Data is available to those with 'Need to Know'.


Bullshit... it's available to pretty much everyone in sufficient amounts to make a judgment. Just a matter of looking for it... I came across it years ago in my research when the rounds were new... Made my decision (that I stand by... 6.5 is the superior round... 6.8 is superior logistically... Neither enough of an improvement for me to buy it) and moved on. I'm sure it's still out there for anyone willing to spend the time to find it.
Link Posted: 6/5/2008 5:09:29 PM EDT
Link Posted: 6/5/2008 7:02:12 PM EDT
With all this debate....  it's sometimes helpful to look at it from a different viewpoint.

Here are 3 rounds.  5.56x45,7.62x39, 6.8spc





What I'm saying, is I think we're all nitpicking.



.
.
.
.
.
.

.
.
.
.
.
.

.
.
.

.
.

.
.


Now we can talk about difference in performance.




Link Posted: 6/6/2008 7:07:34 PM EDT
Link Posted: 6/6/2008 8:16:55 PM EDT


I read everything I could about these two cartridges.

My conclusions --

1.  They are both good and offer worthwhile advantages
in ballistics over the 5.56 in the AR platform.

2.  I trust the work that the 5th SFG did and went with the
6.8 SPC.   This cartridge also appeals to me more.  I
believe it offers more balance for my particular "likes"
over the Grendel.  

3.  The Mini-14, although a general anathema here on
this forum, is available in the 6.8 and I wanted one of
those as well as an AR.

4.  The SPCII version of the 6.8 allows numbers that
bring the two very close together.


So my clear and very comfortable choice is the 6.8 SPC.
I am a sportsman, not a grunt on the ground.  If I was
I would feel VERY much better about having this cartridge
in my M4 as well.   With all the data we have now, it's
amazing the 5.56 is still hanging in there.



dxr



Link Posted: 6/7/2008 11:05:03 AM EDT
Hi,
I don't think that anyone is arguing that the 6.5G has some very good ballicstics. I am personally intrigued by it.
There is a lot of debate -- But I didn't see any responses to my questions...

1. Where are the inexpensive uppers? You can tout how great it is and "performance costs money" but to get more people to try it you need inexpensive uppers. According to AA's website they are "shipping now" so the backlog is gone. Even the 458SOCOM has RRA making uppers so it can't be the licensing unless the terms are not comparable to others Not bashing AA just wondering?
They have been talking about this for a while.

2. Where is the loaded ammo? I know there is Wolf (not my favorite) and Black Hills (supposedly -- neither 6.5 or 6.8 are on the BH website). But there is none on my local shelves. What about big brand ammo? Hornady coming online for 6.8 was a big plus. I have never been disappointed by Hornady. BC aside a 110gr @ 2550fps from a 16" is a nice load.

And a new one :)
Do you really think that sniping is a valid concern? Hasn't the trend been to moving to larger bore and magnum power levels for sniping? Anybody even use the M16 platform for sniping?

Just my thoughts and some unanswered questions. I still don't see why we can't just get an upper in each.
Of course, if you want to debate wound ballistics I am leaning towards the 458SOCOM :)



Link Posted: 6/7/2008 11:23:10 AM EDT
Link Posted: 6/7/2008 11:30:57 AM EDT
I'm 6.8 SPC

Mostly as it is a step above the 5.56, has a large ammo production capability and at 25rds per mag I'm not losing too many rounds per mag for an increase in kill capacity.  It seems like a good inter-cartridge between the 5.56 and 7.62

Also I think that Magpul and Bushmaster were looking to offer the Masada/ACR in 6.8SPC sometime in the future.  So I imagine that we'll see PMAG's from Magpul in the next couple of years.

So, the next big rifle, in a stepped up cartridge offer with the best mags produced sop far.

Sounds like the best of all worlds, compared to everything else.

Link Posted: 6/7/2008 12:13:42 PM EDT

So I imagine that we'll see PMAG's from Magpul in the next couple of years.


I've read Magpul post that 6.8 PMags aren't going to be made. There's not enough wall thickness.
Link Posted: 6/7/2008 1:04:09 PM EDT

Quoted:

So I imagine that we'll see PMAG's from Magpul in the next couple of years.


I've read Magpul post that 6.8 PMags aren't going to be made. There's not enough wall thickness.


So they will have to used a metal mag?  Well, hopefully they can wrap their genius around a better metal mag for their 6.8SPC rilfe right?  OR is that going to be an ix-nay on the 6.8SPC rifles?
Link Posted: 6/7/2008 10:35:49 PM EDT

Quoted: Where is the loaded ammo? I know there is Wolf (not my favorite) and Black Hills


Cabela's, among others, sells the Wolf 6.5 Grendel. The Black Hills 6.5 Grendel is only available through Les Baer Custom. Alexander Arms has five loadings: (1) 90 Speer TNT, (2) 120 Nosler BT, (3) 123 Lapua Scenar, (4) 129 Hornady SST, and (5) 130 Swift Scirocco.









John

| 6.5 Grendel: The State-of-the-Art Combat Cartridge. |

www.65grendel.com
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