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Link Posted: 4/19/2016 12:52:57 PM EST
[#1]
6.5cm, etc. will push a bullet with a higher BC at a higher velocity... there is no argument for 308 from a performance standpoint.  

Link Posted: 4/19/2016 12:53:48 PM EST
[#2]
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It's not really worth it.

Sell the .308 brass and buy Winchester box ammo for 6.5 Creedmoor.

That brass is awesome.
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I have a Grendel so I went for 6.5C instead of .308 despite having a ton of 7.62 brass laying around.



You know, I've heard you can make 6.5C from .308 brass.

It's not really worth it.

Sell the .308 brass and buy Winchester box ammo for 6.5 Creedmoor.

That brass is awesome.


Yeah, I know...



(.44 Automag can be made from .308 brass too. )

Now to add something useful:

My Rem. Mtn. Rifle is chambered in .260 Rem. and I love it.  If only Remington had the wisdom to offer their 700 SPS Varmint in .260 a few years ago, my budget LR rifle would be in .260 instead of .308.  Once I wear the barrel out in the SPS I'll rebarrel in .260.
Link Posted: 4/19/2016 12:59:15 PM EST
[#3]
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Is that a Sierra bullet?

ETA: I'm not in any kind of competition vs those who prefer .308.  I'm only interested in the data.  The more data the easier for others to make their own decision.
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Berger.

I just like to experiment so I'm not too serious myself, I like to shoot  a lot so I picked the .308 for barrel life.



If I were competing I would use the 6.5.
Link Posted: 4/19/2016 1:00:43 PM EST
[#4]
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It's not horrible, it's just ballisticly inferior to 6.5Cm/6.5x47/.260 Rem
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.308 win is a horrible round for horrible people...... that seems to be the consensus here.

It's not horrible, it's just ballisticly inferior to 6.5Cm/6.5x47/.260 Rem


And the 6.5s are ballistically inferior to the 7mm bullets.

Chris


Link Posted: 4/19/2016 1:05:41 PM EST
[#5]
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Yeah, I know...



(.44 Automag can be made from .308 brass too. )

Now to add something useful:

My Rem. Mtn. Rifle is chambered in .260 Rem. and I love it.  If only Remington had the wisdom to offer their 700 SPS Varmint in .260 a few years ago, my budget LR rifle would be in .260 instead of .308.  Once I wear the barrel out in the SPS I'll rebarrel in .260.
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I have a Grendel so I went for 6.5C instead of .308 despite having a ton of 7.62 brass laying around.



You know, I've heard you can make 6.5C from .308 brass.

It's not really worth it.

Sell the .308 brass and buy Winchester box ammo for 6.5 Creedmoor.

That brass is awesome.


Yeah, I know...



(.44 Automag can be made from .308 brass too. )

Now to add something useful:

My Rem. Mtn. Rifle is chambered in .260 Rem. and I love it.  If only Remington had the wisdom to offer their 700 SPS Varmint in .260 a few years ago, my budget LR rifle would be in .260 instead of .308.  Once I wear the barrel out in the SPS I'll rebarrel in .260.


Remington would own the 6.5mm market in the US if they hadn't dropped the ball and actually made decent ammo for the 260 when they rolled it out in the late 1990s.
Link Posted: 4/19/2016 1:10:33 PM EST
[#6]
IMO
Long range competition : 6.5
Everything else : 308
Link Posted: 4/19/2016 1:11:35 PM EST
[#7]
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And the 6.5s are ballistically inferior to the 7mm bullets.

Chris


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.308 win is a horrible round for horrible people...... that seems to be the consensus here.

It's not horrible, it's just ballisticly inferior to 6.5Cm/6.5x47/.260 Rem


And the 6.5s are ballistically inferior to the 7mm bullets.

Chris




I think at some point you have to balance ballistic superiority against recoil level because a 220gr. .308 beats them both.  But I don't want to pull the trigger all day sitting behind a .308 that can send a 220 grain bullet at a velocity similar to the 6.5C and its 140gr. bullet.
Link Posted: 4/19/2016 1:16:44 PM EST
[#8]
I chose 6.5CM as my next rifle.
Link Posted: 4/19/2016 1:19:58 PM EST
[#9]
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Meh.

Bolt gun = 6.5C
Semi = .308WIN

Different applications, IMO, for starters.

The fun part of the arguments start when the 260REM and 6.5C guys start fighting.
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.308 win is a horrible round for horrible people...... that seems to be the consensus here.

It's not horrible, it's just ballisticly inferior to 6.5Cm/6.5x47/.260 Rem


Meh.

Bolt gun = 6.5C
Semi = .308WIN

Different applications, IMO, for starters.

The fun part of the arguments start when the 260REM and 6.5C guys start fighting.


Agree with all ur comments.

The poll lacked .260 Rem!

I'm lucky that I gave enough .308 brass that I can convert to .260.
Link Posted: 4/19/2016 1:21:57 PM EST
[#10]
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I think at some point you have to balance ballistic superiority against recoil level because a 220gr. .308 beats them both.  But I don't want to pull the trigger all day sitting behind a .308 that can send a 220 grain bullet at a velocity similar to the 6.5C and its 140gr. bullet.
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.308 win is a horrible round for horrible people...... that seems to be the consensus here.

It's not horrible, it's just ballisticly inferior to 6.5Cm/6.5x47/.260 Rem


And the 6.5s are ballistically inferior to the 7mm bullets.

Chris




I think at some point you have to balance ballistic superiority against recoil level because a 220gr. .308 beats them both.  But I don't want to pull the trigger all day sitting behind a .308 that can send a 220 grain bullet at a velocity similar to the 6.5C and its 140gr. bullet.


You'd be a few hundred feet per second slower, with the same case.
Link Posted: 4/19/2016 1:22:26 PM EST
[#11]
The 308 is a great round, and because it has been around for so long, there is lots of information available about it's use, and ballistics. The Creedmoor has less wind drift, and drop than the 308.  Where the drop for both rounds is mechanical, and simply requires knowing the distance, and entering the right drop.  Wind drift is more difficult.  Estimating wind is truly an art, and requires more work than elevation.   If a shooter's round is more susceptible to wind, any miscalculation is more likely to result in a miss.  The less wind drift your bullet has, the greater the potential wind reading error is reduced.  

A bullet with a wind drift of 10" at a given distance will give the shooter more "slack" in their wind reading than a bullet with a wind drift of 18" at the same distance.  This becomes more important when a shooter's estimate of wind speed is inaccurate.  Being off your wind estimate by only 2 mph can result in a miss, rather than a hit...this potential for a miss is reduced when the bullet has less wind drift to begin with.
Link Posted: 4/19/2016 1:25:04 PM EST
[#12]
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I think at some point you have to balance ballistic superiority against recoil level because a 220gr. .308 beats them both.  But I don't want to pull the trigger all day sitting behind a .308 that can send a 220 grain bullet at a velocity similar to the 6.5C and its 140gr. bullet.
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.308 win is a horrible round for horrible people...... that seems to be the consensus here.

It's not horrible, it's just ballisticly inferior to 6.5Cm/6.5x47/.260 Rem


And the 6.5s are ballistically inferior to the 7mm bullets.

Chris




I think at some point you have to balance ballistic superiority against recoil level because a 220gr. .308 beats them both.  But I don't want to pull the trigger all day sitting behind a .308 that can send a 220 grain bullet at a velocity similar to the 6.5C and its 140gr. bullet.



Well Kuraki must not have that bullet, but matching barrel lengths  they have the same wind drift and the 230 has  2 more mil of drop.

I fired 90 of these the other day, with a 17lb rifle and a brake I had no problems.  But yeah there is more recoil,  no pain and could still spot shots.
Link Posted: 4/19/2016 1:29:53 PM EST
[#13]
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Quoted:


I think at some point you have to balance ballistic superiority against recoil level because a 220gr. .308 beats them both.  But I don't want to pull the trigger all day sitting behind a .308 that can send a 220 grain bullet at a velocity similar to the 6.5C and its 140gr. bullet.
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.308 win is a horrible round for horrible people...... that seems to be the consensus here.

It's not horrible, it's just ballisticly inferior to 6.5Cm/6.5x47/.260 Rem


And the 6.5s are ballistically inferior to the 7mm bullets.

Chris




I think at some point you have to balance ballistic superiority against recoil level because a 220gr. .308 beats them both.  But I don't want to pull the trigger all day sitting behind a .308 that can send a 220 grain bullet at a velocity similar to the 6.5C and its 140gr. bullet.


I shot 104 7RM rounds with 168gr SMKs and 162gr Hornady National Match bullets in one sitting, so recoil isn't a problem for me and I'm only 5'8".

My comment spoke to the people dissing the .30 cal bullets because they're inferior to the 6.5s, which, in turn, are inferior (in reality) to the 7mm bullets, if you're looking for that Nth degree in performance.

.30 bullets have always been inherently accurate, as a class, but things have gotten much better both in bullet design/testing and in choice.

With the exponential increase in long range shooting disciplines and sniper comps, everybody and his grandma is competing at longer distances than they did just 5-10 years back.

Chris
Link Posted: 4/19/2016 1:36:03 PM EST
[#14]
Popnfresh's 230 OTM load vs barrel length adjusted velocity 6.5 142 SMK

Drop:


Wind:


The wind surprised me.  That 230 certainly bucks the wind.
Link Posted: 4/19/2016 1:41:21 PM EST
[#15]
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You'd be a few hundred feet per second slower, with the same case.
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I think at some point you have to balance ballistic superiority against recoil level because a 220gr. .308 beats them both.  But I don't want to pull the trigger all day sitting behind a .308 that can send a 220 grain bullet at a velocity similar to the 6.5C and its 140gr. bullet.


You'd be a few hundred feet per second slower, with the same case.


Extrapolating load data since I can't find a .308 load using a 220gr. bullet in a quick search I'd guess you're 400+fps down from a 168gr. load.  So maybe in the 2300fps range?  For recoil I was thinking a 220 loaded in a .300 Win. Mag. at 2800fps.
Link Posted: 4/19/2016 1:45:18 PM EST
[#16]
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Popnfresh's 230 OTM load vs barrel length adjusted velocity 6.5 142 SMK

Drop:
http://i66.tinypic.com/54zzbr.jpg

Wind:
http://i65.tinypic.com/2ztm0zd.jpg

The wind surprised me.  That 230 certainly bucks the wind.
View Quote


With the BC of the 220-240 grain bullets I'm not surprised.  What velocity are you using in your graphs?  I was thinking a .300 Win Mag at about 2800fps would give superior drop and drift to anything in the 6.5mm and 7mm range at the expense of recoil or a much heavier rifle.
Link Posted: 4/19/2016 1:45:34 PM EST
[#17]
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Extrapolating load data since I can't find a .308 load using a 220gr. bullet in a quick search I'd guess you're 400+fps down from a 168gr. load.  So maybe in the 2300fps range?  For recoil I was thinking a 220 loaded in a .300 Win. Mag. at 2800fps.
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I think at some point you have to balance ballistic superiority against recoil level because a 220gr. .308 beats them both.  But I don't want to pull the trigger all day sitting behind a .308 that can send a 220 grain bullet at a velocity similar to the 6.5C and its 140gr. bullet.


You'd be a few hundred feet per second slower, with the same case.


Extrapolating load data since I can't find a .308 load using a 220gr. bullet in a quick search I'd guess you're 400+fps down from a 168gr. load.  So maybe in the 2300fps range?  For recoil I was thinking a 220 loaded in a .300 Win. Mag. at 2800fps.


What the 6-7mm bullets represent is more of a ballistic "sweet spot".  A bullet of ANY diameter can be made that is long enough for a killer BC.  Smaller than 6mm, and it's kinda light and gets pushed around by the wind.  Bigger than 7mm, and it's heavy and is going to beat the hell out the shooter if driven to any kind of velocity.
Link Posted: 4/19/2016 1:51:02 PM EST
[#18]

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You know, I've heard you can make 6.5C from .308 brass.
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Quoted:

I have a Grendel so I went for 6.5C instead of .308 despite having a ton of 7.62 brass laying around.






You know, I've heard you can make 6.5C from .308 brass.
Dat neck turning doe.

 
Link Posted: 4/19/2016 1:58:05 PM EST
[#19]
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With the BC of the 220-240 grain bullets I'm not surprised.  What velocity are you using in your graphs?  I was thinking a .300 Win Mag at about 2800fps would give superior drop and drift to anything in the 6.5mm and 7mm range at the expense of recoil or a much heavier rifle.
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Popnfresh's 230 OTM load vs barrel length adjusted velocity 6.5 142 SMK

Drop:
http://i66.tinypic.com/54zzbr.jpg

Wind:
http://i65.tinypic.com/2ztm0zd.jpg

The wind surprised me.  That 230 certainly bucks the wind.


With the BC of the 220-240 grain bullets I'm not surprised.  What velocity are you using in your graphs?  I was thinking a .300 Win Mag at about 2800fps would give superior drop and drift to anything in the 6.5mm and 7mm range at the expense of recoil or a much heavier rifle.


Again, depends on case size. A 7LRM or Allen Mag would beat a 300WM. A 300 Allen Mag will smash anything smaller.
Link Posted: 4/19/2016 2:02:25 PM EST
[#20]
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Extrapolating load data since I can't find a .308 load using a 220gr. bullet in a quick search I'd guess you're 400+fps down from a 168gr. load.  So maybe in the 2300fps range?  For recoil I was thinking a 220 loaded in a .300 Win. Mag. at 2800fps.
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I think at some point you have to balance ballistic superiority against recoil level because a 220gr. .308 beats them both.  But I don't want to pull the trigger all day sitting behind a .308 that can send a 220 grain bullet at a velocity similar to the 6.5C and its 140gr. bullet.


You'd be a few hundred feet per second slower, with the same case.


Extrapolating load data since I can't find a .308 load using a 220gr. bullet in a quick search I'd guess you're 400+fps down from a 168gr. load.  So maybe in the 2300fps range?  For recoil I was thinking a 220 loaded in a .300 Win. Mag. at 2800fps.



I gave the data for my 230otm load . I get 2400fps from my 20" bolt gun.

The 230otm has a .719/.368 BC.
Link Posted: 4/19/2016 2:08:45 PM EST
[#21]
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My comment spoke to the people dissing the .30 cal bullets because they're inferior to the 6.5s, which, in turn, are inferior (in reality) to the 7mm bullets, if you're looking for that Nth degree in performance.

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Length increases BC.  It's not .30 cal that is an issue, it's the length of a .30 cal bullet vs 6.5mm that's permitted in the action.

Mass also increases BC.  To push a larger mass at the same velocity, you need more powder.

It's not that a higher BC can't be achieved with larger caliber (i.e, a long heavy .30 cal bullet), it's all about maximizing the BC within the constraints.  6/6.5mm does that whereas the 308 does not in the action for which they were both designed.  
Link Posted: 4/19/2016 2:10:38 PM EST
[#22]
Hell, we KNEW that 6mm was superior to .30 cal way back when Garand was trying to have his rifle chambered in .276



But people at key government positions wanted to keep holding onto those old rifleman myths.
Link Posted: 4/19/2016 2:23:41 PM EST
[#23]
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With the BC of the 220-240 grain bullets I'm not surprised.  What velocity are you using in your graphs?  I was thinking a .300 Win Mag at about 2800fps would give superior drop and drift to anything in the 6.5mm and 7mm range at the expense of recoil or a much heavier rifle.
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I compared my 6.5x55 handload to 168 FGMM initially because I felt that was fairly apples to apples.  My load mimics what most people are doing from 6.5x47, 6.5C, 260, etc with a 142 SMK.  The second set is compared to Popnfresh's 230 grain OTM load at 2400 fps.

I can do some 300 loads if you'd like but then we'd be in the one up circle.  6.5-06, or .26 Nosler, etc.  Where 6.5C and 260 are generally compared to .308 given the commonality in the actions they are available in.

Link Posted: 4/19/2016 2:30:31 PM EST
[#24]



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Quoted:
With the BC of the 220-240 grain bullets I'm not surprised.  What velocity are you using in your graphs?  I was thinking a .300 Win Mag at about 2800fps would give superior drop and drift to anything in the 6.5mm and 7mm range at the expense of recoil or a much heavier rifle.
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Popnfresh's 230 OTM load vs barrel length adjusted velocity 6.5 142 SMK
Drop:



http://i66.tinypic.com/54zzbr.jpg
Wind:



http://i65.tinypic.com/2ztm0zd.jpg
The wind surprised me.  That 230 certainly bucks the wind.

With the BC of the 220-240 grain bullets I'm not surprised.  What velocity are you using in your graphs?  I was thinking a .300 Win Mag at about 2800fps would give superior drop and drift to anything in the 6.5mm and 7mm range at the expense of recoil or a much heavier rifle.
















 


6.5 mm (.264") bullets, in general, are known for their relatively high sectional density and ballistic coefficients, and have seen success in rifle competition. For some loads the 6.5mm Creedmoor is capable of duplicating the muzzle velocity or trajectory of the .300 Winchester Magnum while generating significantly lower recoil, based on lighter projectile weight.




 




You basically can get the same trajectory as a .300WM with a much lighter rifle, and much less recoil.

 
Link Posted: 4/19/2016 2:31:24 PM EST
[#25]
gas gun 308
bolt gun 6.5
Link Posted: 4/19/2016 2:35:27 PM EST
[#26]
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Quoted:


Length increases BC.  It's not .30 cal that is an issue, it's the length of a .30 cal bullet vs 6.5mm that's permitted in the action.

Mass also increases BC.  To push a larger mass at the same velocity, you need more powder.

It's not that a higher BC can't be achieved with larger caliber (i.e, a long heavy .30 cal bullet), it's all about maximizing the BC within the constraints.  6/6.5mm does that whereas the 308 does not in the action for which they were both designed.
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Quoted:

My comment spoke to the people dissing the .30 cal bullets because they're inferior to the 6.5s, which, in turn, are inferior (in reality) to the 7mm bullets, if you're looking for that Nth degree in performance.



Length increases BC.  It's not .30 cal that is an issue, it's the length of a .30 cal bullet vs 6.5mm that's permitted in the action.

Mass also increases BC.  To push a larger mass at the same velocity, you need more powder.

It's not that a higher BC can't be achieved with larger caliber (i.e, a long heavy .30 cal bullet), it's all about maximizing the BC within the constraints.  6/6.5mm does that whereas the 308 does not in the action for which they were both designed.


I know all about that.  Restated, my point is is that if somebody objects to shooting a match grade .308 Winchester load because it's inferior to the 6.5 class of cartridges, then those people should be shooting the 7mm offerings, because they're slicker.

With the advent of recent high energy progressive burning powders, we're getting more velocity out of the same weight class of bullets, across practically the entire cartridge spectrum, so velocity isn't an issue.  Palma guys have been doing just fine with the 155gr. SMK, albeit with longer barrels.

I like the .308 Winchester cartridge and for most people who might not compete, but still want to test their skill level, they'll be well served by the .30 cal offerings.  Brass and bullets are ubiquitous.

I also load up and shoot the 22-250, 7RM and 338LM for my other bolt guns and I loaded up a lot of target grade 260 Rem. for a buddy's RWS build and so I know the value of the 6.5s.

I'd like to pick up a 260R, or 6.5CM when I have the funds to purchase one.

Chris
Link Posted: 4/19/2016 2:44:20 PM EST
[#27]
Link Posted: 4/19/2016 2:56:44 PM EST
[#28]
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Quoted:
.308 because that's what the GB team shooters used to beat the US team at Perry last year in the World LR champs, when all the Americans were using 6.5s and 7s
It's not about how much less your bullet drifts.....it's about how good you can read the winds

And this is why the US hasn't won the Palma in years, and probably won't for some time to come
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We've moved on.  Palma matches are for old geezers wearing plaid shorts and black socks.

Much like oversized tennis rackets are a crutch for bad play, one might argue that shooting a .308 Win. with dirtier bullets compels one to become a better shot by being forced to read the wind more accurately.

Chris
Link Posted: 4/19/2016 3:05:56 PM EST
[#29]
screw both and go 26 nosler

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