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Posted: 12/28/2005 8:21:18 PM EDT
[#1]
When the 'lil Chevy Impala came out and everyone thought it was the next best thing to oxygen... I continued to hold my Crown Vic very dear. The dept bought 6 Impalas for the price of 5 CVPI. But, over the past 2 years it has been very appearant that the maintenance cost are almost DOUBLE that of a CVPI. The front end of the Impala is no where near as stable as the CVPI, and that is just the tip of the iceberg.
MOPAR may have the new Magnum and Charger, and I already give them more credit than the Chevy Impala, BUT.... the CVPI has been engineered to a point that MOPAR has a lot of catching up to do. Just because a car go go a wee bit faster doesnt mean jack shit. Reliability, safety, and handling are all more important than speed. Ask any LEO who has been in a high speed chase. Very rarely do the bad guys get above 100mph due to the limiters on the factory cars they are driving. Being able to take a corner in a stable manner, being able to stop and go safely, and having a car that can take abuse an d still keep going is by FAR more important than a tiny bit of extra speed. Gas costs, maintenance costs, purchase costs, etc... a LOT of things need to be considered before buying a cruiser. My dept is going to test out 3 Magnums. If they do well, they may buy more. I do know that my dept is saying "no more" to the Impala. CVPI or MOPAR. No Chebby. Thats all.  Carry on. |
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Posted: 12/28/2005 8:26:51 PM EDT
[#2]
Most Euro LEOs dont have to worry about going 100mph+ to get to a scene, and they dont have to worry about chasing a suspect 100mph+ over an open highway. Euro LEOs have to be able to turn on a dime becuase of their narrow roads, tight corners, and very conjested streets. Being compact is everything in Europe. there is a HUGE difference in US and Euro law enforement tactics and SOP. a HUGE difference. |
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Posted: 12/28/2005 8:53:42 PM EDT
[#3]
I repeat the question, ever driven in, or even visited Europe? Last time I checked, Europe has hundreds of thousands of kilometers of freeway and four lane divided, non-controlled access roads. The virtually all of the European freeway system already has speed limits higher than the US, and European drivers routinely ignore them in many countries. To say that 100 mph + chases do not happen in Europe is pure ignorance. |
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Posted: 12/28/2005 9:01:42 PM EDT
[#4]
Do squad cars actually run to 100k? For what kind of cops? I am very surprised by those numbers knowing how the cops in NYC drive; I don't think any ricer would run reasonably well at 100k given how some of these guys drive, much less an American-made car.
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Posted: 12/28/2005 9:15:18 PM EDT
[#5]
You can get some good handling FWD cars, the 'Hot Hatch' is a very large market in Europe. Alfa Romeo sells FWD cars that crank out well over 300hp. (147GTA and 156GTA variants) And it somehow keeps torque steer under control.
Still, I wouldn't recommend a 147 as a patrol car, it's just too small. Even the 156 which is a sedan is cutting it close, but if chosen, it would easily be the most beautiful police car in service. Italians may not always know how to make good 'common man' cars, but they've always designed them with soul. Yes, a typical Merc E-class or Volvo sedan is smaller than a Crown Vic. But that's why a lot of forces use estate versions of them. Plenty of cargo room. And don't go giving any rubbish about estates not being easy to handle or drive fast, that theory was shattered when Volvo entered estate cars in the European racing scene and blew away the four-doors from other companies in the late 90s. (Thus earning the company a serious amount of Police sales). Plus.. it's a Volvo. You get hit in one of those Swedish tanks, you don't need to worry about the fuel tank catching fire. I think the only issue is 'Not Made Here' which is a political issue. Besides, Ford own Volvo, GM own Opel, Chrysler and Daimler are intertwined... NTM |
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Posted: 12/28/2005 9:19:23 PM EDT
[#6]
How would those Euro cars (excellent cars for *driving*) hold up to driving over curbs, median turns, gravel roads, or the potholes common in any major urban area in the US? How about muddy roads common in the rural areas? The Autobahn and Auto Strada are great driving roads largely because they are so EASY on a car. The grades are very mild, the turns are wide and constant-radius, and the roads are well-maintained. None of this is true of much of America's Interstate system, and certainly not of the state highways. -Troy |
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Posted: 12/28/2005 9:39:04 PM EDT
[#7]
You haven't driven on Irish roads, have you?
:P NTM |
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Posted: 12/28/2005 10:16:51 PM EDT
[#8]
This is where alot of people just dont grasp reality. The fullsize american RWD sedan is far tougher AND more durable in this type of use than any of the imports. Look at construction, import cars are MUCH lighter cars. They would never handle the abuse the CVPI puts up with. |
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Posted: 12/28/2005 10:37:07 PM EDT
[#9]
At 6'4"/240 w/o gear - add a duty belt with radio on one side and gun on the other - I barely fit in the driver seat of a CVPI much less a smaller car. Add the MDT, radio console, emergency lights/siren controls and M4/Benelli rack and the width of a Toyota just ain't gonna cut it. Now add the separation cage and how much leg room will a prisoner have?
I'd love to see Toyota/Volvo/MB/any other company produce a similar sized car to a CVPI. Regardless of who makes it ANY manufacturers vehicle is going to be toast after 100K of patrol use. If it was designed to go beyond 100K it wouldn't be affordable..... Brian |
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Posted: 12/28/2005 10:39:42 PM EDT
[#10]
Sheep, Can you shed a little light on the issue? I've seen the website and read some of the reports but I'm guessing you have more information. My background is 10 years of mechanical engineering in automotive/aerospace/power generation so I have a bit of design background. I've spent the last 1.5 years pushing a CVPI around 1800-0600 3/4 days/week. Brian |
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Posted: 12/29/2005 2:48:22 AM EDT
[#11]
Ok, we dont have zee autobahns over here and neither does many of the other European countries. Cars over here in the nordic for example have to be reliable in any kind of weather and terrain/road, same goes for the other Scandinavian countries. Having travelled in Europe, I can also say that it also has its share of shitty roads. |
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Posted: 12/29/2005 3:06:07 AM EDT
[#12]
Ah, I remember my first front wheel drive and going "Holy shit when this thing breaks traction, the ballgames over." There's no power steering out of that just go along with the ride.
As for European police cars in the US, all I can say is they better have damn good radios. |
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Posted: 12/29/2005 4:05:09 AM EDT
[#13]
Um, no they don't. If you actually ride with them Like I did and observe their procedures, you'll find the regular patrol officers are backed up by support officers driving vans with the equipment needed.  There is no resemblance whatsoever to police patrol tactics between our two countries. Pursuits for example. Here we chase. In Europe, they kill them. 
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Posted: 12/29/2005 9:56:21 AM EDT
[#14]
It's called understeer, and it's safer for the unwashed masses. |
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Posted: 12/29/2005 10:15:32 AM EDT
[#15]
I live right behind the Tampa Machinery Auction, where once a month lots of cars, trucks, boats, tractors, golf carts, etc. are auctioned off. They park the Florida Highway Patrol cars in the back where they aren't readily seen. However, when auction day comes, those cars are the first to go, and there's always buyers with flatbed trucks hauling them off. Last month there was Camaro Z28 FHP car.
This month they have a nice law enforcement boat with twin outboards up for grabs. I'm gonna try for that one. |
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Posted: 12/29/2005 10:30:12 AM EDT
[#16]
Awwwww, come on, I wanna see you do a Pitt stop on a stolen Escalade with a Honda Accord. |
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Posted: 12/29/2005 3:37:12 PM EDT
[#17]
Um. I didnt say that 100mph+ pursuits can not happen in Europe. Yes, there are open roads in Europe. Yes, high speed chases can happen over those open raods. BUT... the overwhelming majority of European car pursuits are in urban areas with tight corners, narrow roadways, and short stretches of road. By comparison, even if the pursuits here in the US are urban, we have much longer roads, much more room to menouver, and much longer stretched of roads. The little front wheeled drive 4banger in Europe will take care of the majority of their needs. Here in the US, the larger rear wheeled car is preferred for all the reasons already mentioned.
What the Euros have for needs are different than ours here in the US. |
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Posted: 12/29/2005 4:02:36 PM EDT
[#18]
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Posted: 12/29/2005 4:17:41 PM EDT
[#19]
The Michigan State Police who run a very Police Vehicle test every couple years found the Chevy Impala had more interior space. In performance beat the Crown Vic in every test and had better gas mileage.
This was a few years ago. BRAVO SIERRA Impalas SUCK. They are SLOW. My agency got some because they were much less expensive than CVs. The troops complained so much that they now only issue them to supervisors. They should be in the "not pursuit capable" category. I dont care what Michigan tests say. In the real world, they do not work well. You dont think Chevy would send a ringer do you? |
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Posted: 12/29/2005 4:18:08 PM EDT
[#20]
A village PD might put 20 miles on a car over a shift. I drive 200 miles a shift. The car is shared with one or two other officers, depending on the overall condition of the fleet...more cars out for repairs, etc and the remaining cars get driven more. Yes, they get driven to 100K, and often beyond by some agencies. |
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Posted: 12/29/2005 4:32:04 PM EDT
[#21]
I only said what the Michigan State Police found in their tests which are attended by lots of other departments also. I only stated what I read but having never been a cop I probably should not have comment in this conversation.
Every day I find less and less reason to come here.. |
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Posted: 12/29/2005 4:32:52 PM EDT
[#22]
I don't understand why you sound so defensive. |
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Posted: 12/29/2005 4:47:50 PM EDT
[#23]
The Plymouth Fury / Dodge Diplomat... I used to be able to spot that headlight / running light combo in a rear view mirrow at 300 feet...  They were the workhorse for years. When Lee and the boys d/c'd it, it was the death knell for municipal sales for Mopar. (Although one of my buddys said the best car he ever drove was a Ford LTD II - looked like a POS, but had a small block V8 and less weight than a Fury) I remember after Dode killed the Diplo, when the NTC went to Oldsmobiles (Cutlass Cieras?). The "rather large" officers had a hell of a time getting in and out of them. Most agencies around here went to the Chevy Caprice... then, when Chevy (obviously not able to read the recent history of Dodge) d/c'd the Caprice, the agencies went to Vics. Glad to see a Dodge flying the colors again. It somehow makes things right in the world.  |
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Posted: 12/29/2005 4:49:43 PM EDT
[#24]
Great, you're comparing a car that's 1/3rd smaller and weighs over 1200 pounds less. Yeah...good showing.
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Posted: 12/29/2005 4:50:37 PM EDT
[#25]
There are MANY FWD cars that will spank the Caprices and Crown Vics that most places have used over the last 15 years. |
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Posted: 12/29/2005 5:05:15 PM EDT
[#26]
Larger patrol vehicle are needed to hold much more technical equipment, and still be comfortable to drive. Must be able to carry doughnuts lots, and lots of doughnuts
  
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Posted: 12/29/2005 5:21:54 PM EDT
[#27]
Name one. |
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Posted: 12/29/2005 5:48:54 PM EDT
[#28]
because hondas and toyotas are tinny little FWD POS cars. yes they last anlong time and are great buys for people who commute but they are dinky. my boss has an avalon and i have MGMLS (merc version of the vic) my trunk is almost 3 times the capacity. cops haul alot shit around with them. also toyotas and hondas use weak strut suspensions. they would never hold up to real use. |
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Posted: 12/29/2005 5:54:34 PM EDT
[#29]
the CRV is a pregnat accord. spindly suspension and uni body construction. it will be rattle trap in 1-3 years under police use. |
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Posted: 12/29/2005 6:08:25 PM EDT
[#30]
Volvo V70 VW Jetta GLI (2006) VW Golf GTI (2006) Audi A4 V6 Saab 9-3 Aero |
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Posted: 12/29/2005 6:08:56 PM EDT
[#31]
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Posted: 12/29/2005 6:09:08 PM EDT
[#32]
The only problem with FWD performance cars as LEO vehicles are that the average cop is such a bad driver he cannot keep from smashing the front wheels into curbs.
Most of the Crown Vics and trucks out there are out of alignment at any one time. Out of alignment on a RWD car, while it increases tire wear, does not usually increase it so much that the car cannot go to the next schuled service break- or even skip one- without ruining the tires. A FWD car with 250-300 hp through the front wheels and pushed hard often will eat those same tires in a few thousand miles- a couple weeks of police work. The tires will be destroyed before you get to the 3000-3500mi service break. There is no way around this in a FWD car. I really wonder what is going to happen in those departments that buy the Hemi Dodges. No serving LEO today has ever driven a vheicle with that much horsepower. I think we are going to see a lot of dead LEOs, from them killing themselves, unless they send them to someplace like Bondaurant to learn to handle that kind of power. |
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Posted: 12/29/2005 6:10:42 PM EDT
[#33]
Why doesn't one of the 3 major US automakers meet w/ several LE agencies and ask them what they want, and make a car specifically for LE use? They could make a ton of money off of it through guranteed sales, and they wouldn't have to waste ad and marketing money trying to sell it to the general public as well.
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Posted: 12/29/2005 6:11:40 PM EDT
[#34]
You obviously either drove some econocar POS or simply don't know how to drive a FWD car. I used to like smoking guys with stock Camaros and Firebirds with my VW GTi in SCCA Autocross, where handling is king. |
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Posted: 12/29/2005 6:12:00 PM EDT
[#35]
I know a guy that buys cv's at auction and resells them to the public most have over 150k-200k on the clock when he gets em. They usually last another 100,000 after that. I know alot of people that purchased these cars and are still driving them.
You import guys are insane. Try driving an overloaded import the way LEO's do they would implode after a few weeks lol. Besides some maniac in a truck would make easy work of them. As for the highways in Europe i have seen pics and video of them being patrolled with more performance oriented vehicles rather then there standard patrol cars. Am i wrong? 
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Posted: 12/29/2005 6:12:45 PM EDT
[#36]
Dodge Intrepid Neon SRT-4 PT Cruser 2.4l (with or without Turbo) some models of the Dodge Caravan! (straight line only) Since Ford governs the CVPI to 125mph too keep the drive shaft from snapping at the yoke to the rear end if the car goes over a slight bump at much higher speed than that, its not hard to get a vheicle that will go faster. |
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Posted: 12/29/2005 6:14:44 PM EDT
[#37]
This has to be the funniest post I have ever seen in a car thread. (Or any other thread for that matter)  Golf GTI patrol cars. Maybe you can tie arrestees to the hood?
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Posted: 12/29/2005 6:15:09 PM EDT
[#38]
Back in 1998-1999 or thereabouts (or so I am told, I wasnt there yet) the MCSO told Ford they wanted to buy Volvo 7 series wagons with the 5cyl Turbo. Ford had given us 4 of them to try (and also gave some to DPS) and our deputies loved them. Ford REFUSED to sell them to us. They REFUSED to admit that it was superior to the CVPI. |
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Posted: 12/29/2005 6:15:49 PM EDT
[#39]
Yes you are mostly wrong. Some German police forces use Porsches and other crazy stuff. But most over Europe use larger, powerful sedans and station wagons. Some FWD, some RWD. Europe does not have ONE kind of police car. They buy mixed fleets for mixed use. You'll see Ford Focus on urban street patrol, and you'll see Volvo V70s, Opel Vectras, and C and E class Mercs on highway patrol. |
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Posted: 12/29/2005 6:16:37 PM EDT
[#40]
why? they exist in Europe. In both Germany and the Netherlands you'll find Porsche 911 police cars. Just like the many state police you USED to use Ford Mustangs. Till Ford screwed them. |
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Posted: 12/29/2005 6:17:02 PM EDT
[#41]
When it comes to performance, you won't be laughing. |
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Posted: 12/29/2005 6:17:14 PM EDT
[#42]
Not enough sales in an LEO-only market to make R & D and production profitable. |
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Posted: 12/29/2005 6:19:18 PM EDT
[#43]
Do enlighten us.
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Posted: 12/29/2005 6:22:32 PM EDT
[#44]
.jpg)
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Posted: 12/29/2005 6:24:16 PM EDT
[#45]
 
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Posted: 12/29/2005 6:24:33 PM EDT
[#46]
We3're not talking about ricers with fat can exhausts. We're talking patrol cars. Two completely different animals. Admit it. You have NO idea of the requirements necessary.  BTW: I caught a Hopped up Acura in a pursuit once. My patrol unit was a 3/4 ton 4x4 F250 diesel. "Performance" didn't help him much did it?
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Posted: 12/29/2005 6:28:36 PM EDT
[#47]
Now if only Dodge could manufacture their vehicles to the long lasting durability standards of Ford MoCo, we would have a winner!
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Posted: 12/29/2005 6:30:27 PM EDT
[#48]
With pleasure: The heart of the 2006 GLI is Volkswagen’s new and highly regarded 2.0 T turbocharged four-cylinder engine producing 200 horsepower at 5,500 to 6,000 revolutions per minute and 207 ft.-lbs. of torque from 1,800 to 4,700 rpm. With a standard six-speed manual transmission, the new GLI accelerates from 0 to 60 miles per hour in just 6.7 seconds. The transverse, front-mount engine incorporates dual overhead camshafts, four valves per cylinder, and maintenance-free hydraulic lifters for smooth, worry-free operation. A fully electronic engine management system includes drive-by-wire throttle control and FSI direct injection for optimal fuel combustion, which increases power, improves efficiency, and reduces emissions. The 2006 GLI is available with Volkswagen’s new six-speed DSG™ automatic transmission with Tiptronic® as an option. The direct shift gearbox permits fully automatic or manual gear changes using a twin-clutch, wet-plate design that eliminates the power interruption associated with traditionally clutched gear changes. Sport-oriented drivers will surely find pleasure behind the wheel of a GLI, as will those who measure performance satisfaction by miles per gallon. An Environmental Protection Agency fuel economy rating of 32 Highway/25 City and an electronically limited top speed of 130 mph confirm that power and economy can come in one package. www.germancarfans.com/news.cfm/NewsID/2050824.012/volkswagen/1.html Removing the top speed limiter is dead easy to do, and given the car's weight, Cd, and power, I can easily see 145 mph at the top. And since a Jetta is nothing but a Golf with a trunk, I expect the Golf GTi to be as quick or quicker. Find me a police CV or Caprice that can get out of its own way in less than 8 seconds.  From the MSP eval: Apart from the two Hemi Dodges, the rest of the sedans all reached 60 mph within ½ second of one another, all clustered between 8.6 and 9.1 seconds.  |
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Posted: 12/29/2005 6:32:58 PM EDT
[#49]
You mean Ford "King of Recalls" Motor Company?
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Posted: 12/29/2005 6:33:01 PM EDT
[#50]
Nice pics, and totally irrelevant. As several folks have already told you, the European policing model is not the same as the US model. Cars are used differently in each. European patrol cars are also withdrawn from service at 70K KILOMETERS. As I had already stated, we tested Impalas. I BENT mine at 19K miles. I hit a pothole. All 10 test cars were withdrawn by 25K miles. Most of them were into their second transmission by then. When the Crown Vics go away we'll more than likely go to Expeditions or Tahoes. Anyone want to chime in that actually understands the issues here? |
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