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Posted: 11/29/2001 9:02:15 AM EDT
[#1]
<< [i]Burning down the chicken house to eat BBQ for lunch [/i]>>
We're a team, right? Would you really tell someone else on your team what you told zoom? Seriously, the guy had an idea, added some input and got ripped for it. That ain't the way a real teammate treats another. It's not about what was posted in this thread, but the way the subject of the 1911 was approached in the other one! Castle Arms [u]will not[/u] do a parts kit, because of the complexities for most guys... While some of us could build just about anything while wearing a blindfold, MOST can't. Also, a parts kit as specified with the purpose of circumventing an FFL, is certainly not complete... This is the type of thing that failed miserably on the FAL boards, although Jen worked her ass off to attempt to please everyone. We do not want this to happen! [blue]Dammit, now I've got sore fingers from responding, and am hungry for BBQ chicken too![/blue] [:D] |
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Posted: 11/29/2001 9:05:27 AM EDT
[#2]
It's obvious that we all have our strong points AND our weak points. Our different views will always cause some argument among us, let's not have a misunderstanding get in the way of what we're trying to accomplish. Remember the original goal of this thread...let's get back to work on making the LEGP AK happen!
If you're not intereted in an AK then fine, no problem. I believe the 2002 LEGP AR will be coming out shortly, and I'll be in for that too! "What the world needs now, is love, sweet love..."[whacko] |
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Posted: 11/29/2001 9:07:30 AM EDT
[#3]
Great! Now I'm hungry too...
[%|] TheRedGoat/Baphomet Ps... you ain't such a [}:D] afterall, just an [0:)] who wants some BBQ. |
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Posted: 11/29/2001 9:11:27 AM EDT
[#4]
Quoted: zoom: anti is more upset with the interest expressed yet again for the 1911. It is hard to pin down a config & a pricepoint that makes everyone happy. As usual after the interest was expressed on a config & price everybody disappeared. I was interested until the original configuration came out, then I had to pass because it was just too much to spend before the holidays. I've got two kids who won't understand why Santa didn't come because daddy had to have a 1911. But with the second config, I was much more interested and it's a damn good deal. I'm still leary of putting the money down on it because of my personal financial situation, but it's a greater possibility. I think most people feel the same way I do. If they had the $ to spend on the 1911 they would in a heartbeat. After new years, I'm definitely interested, and I think that would have been a better time to have started the 1911 group buy. And make no mistake, while I haven't yet purchased a LEGP of any kind (I wanted the AR badly and hopefully Treetop and I can come to an agreement so I can get his), I do greatly appreciate the work you and anti have done. The two LEGP firearms you've worked out have been outstanding. And you've taken our input on what it was we wanted, which I greatly appreciate as well. It's just hard for most of us to buy them with the economy in the toilet and Christmas around the corner. If we work on a AK LEGP we will have to take the expressed interest as being about 4x what will be actual. If you're serious about working on it, I'd hold off until April. That will give you guys a chance to rest and let the 1911's sell without having the AK and the 1911 compete for each other. But then it might compete with the 2002 LEGP AR if it's still going to happen. I think it would be best to limit the LEGP activities to no more than two firearms a year, as it's probably about as much as many of us can afford here and as much hassle as you and anti will want to deal with. God Bless Texas |
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Posted: 11/29/2001 9:12:39 AM EDT
[#5]
Quoted: Remember the original goal of this thread... [whacko] Original GOAL of a thread, you're kidding, right? [:O)] |
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Posted: 11/29/2001 9:15:09 AM EDT
[#6]
Quoted: Personally, I hate the M4 series of AR's, and have little to no use for them... but the majority wanted it, and so we strived to put together the best possible M4 that could be found anywhere. Hell, we designed and put the 2001 together, but it certainly isn't what either Grin&Barrett or I wanted! Who doesn't like a carbine? [:D] Seriously, I think it was the best looking post-ban carbine available and it's a shame you can't get it anymore. It's one of only two post-ban carbines I'd consider owning, as most seem to come with that lame-duck muzzle break. God Bless Texas |
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Posted: 11/29/2001 9:28:35 AM EDT
[#7]
Quoted: Quoted: Remember the original goal of this thread... [whacko] Original GOAL of a thread, you're kidding, right? [:O)] Yeah..what was it again? |
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Posted: 11/29/2001 11:05:31 AM EDT
[#8]
I would be interested in a 5.45 if the price were right.
Put on a Bulgy stock set, a brake, a couple of mags, a cure for trigger slap, and the option of a Kobra. |
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Posted: 11/29/2001 11:35:18 AM EDT
[#9]
Quoted: I think it should be done w/ a HIGH quality AK variant. Something like an Arsenal. Ditto![beer] |
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Posted: 11/29/2001 11:38:12 AM EDT
[#10]
Quoted: I'm in! I say Arsenal USA in 7.62x39 with synthetic stocks, no optics. They make Great guns and if we buy bulk we should be able to get them very reasonable (say $375?) No custom mods except maybe a better trigger. keep the price low. [50] DITTO!!! [beer] |
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Posted: 11/29/2001 12:13:14 PM EDT
[#11]
Quoted: I would be interested in a 5.45 if the price were right. Put on a Bulgy stock set, a brake, a couple of mags, a cure for trigger slap, and the option of a Kobra. I'll second that! |
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Posted: 11/29/2001 12:38:40 PM EDT
[#12]
So I gather that "Rabbit9" is in either way... [;)]
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Posted: 11/29/2001 1:47:35 PM EDT
[#13]
I am interested in the LEGP AK. A group purchase of Arsenal USA 7.62x39 AK's with a Kobra option would be perfect. I sold off my 2 AK's and need a new one soon!
I expressed interest in the LEGP 1911, but I have my heart set on a Wilson or Les Baer. Can't wait for the 2002 AR (but hope the AK happens too) Live Free |
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Posted: 11/29/2001 3:11:14 PM EDT
[#14]
Arsenal USA's American Ak's
Posted on Monday, October 08 @ 08:58:14 EDT by davidcContributed by: davidc The November 2001 edition of SAR (Small Arms Review) has an interesting article, written by Charlie Cutshaw, about American built Ak's being built by Arsenal USA. Apparently, production of these rifles is being overseen by Ivan Kolev, formerly of Arsenal Bulgaria, who "holds the equivalent of a master's degree from Tula Institute in Russia and is one of the world's acknowledged experts in AK design." Pretty cool. Charlie also reports that the guns will print within 1.5" to 2"(depending on ammunition being used) at 100 yards, which is about as accurate as an AK can get. Hell, that's pretty much as accurate as a top notch AR. The rifles are built on new Hungarian FEG receivers and polish components. Arsenal USA is currently using GlobalTrades.com as their website. The website is currently being worked on. Arenal USA LLC can be reached at (713)944-3351. I didn't write this, fyi I've seen them. very, very, nice guns |
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Posted: 11/29/2001 4:14:59 PM EDT
[#15]
Im in for a CAMPYCLONE!!!! GIMME GIMME GIMME!!
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Posted: 11/29/2001 4:59:24 PM EDT
[#16]
I'm not sure if I could swing it but I'd love to get a LEGP AK if the price was low and the quality was good. 7.62 or 5.45 either way I'd just like to know what kind of price range we're talking about. $200? $400? I know absolutely nothing about AK's but am interested in furthering my collection of "SUR's". All I have right now is a Bushmaster 14.5" with Mini-y comp postban. Please lets get back on track and start building a consensus on type!
Just my thoughts, Steven L. |
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Posted: 11/29/2001 5:03:45 PM EDT
[#17]
I want one! I want one !
Can I get it in California? |
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Posted: 11/29/2001 5:04:27 PM EDT
[#18]
circumventing an FFL The point behind my suggestion was not to cut-out an FFL, but that more people would participate because it would be easier for them. This is the type of thing [parts kits] that failed miserably on the FAL boards. It didn't have so many problems because it was a parts kit! That had nothing to do with it. It was because of a natural disaster (flood waters + guns = trouble), and with the fact that the kits weren't in as good of a condition as the importer advertised. I'll respect your decision to not deal with parts kits, but please represent poor Jen's mess as it was. We do not want this to happen! Agreed. I don't want to see that kind of mess happen to anyone.z |
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Posted: 11/30/2001 4:30:43 AM EDT
[#19]
If you can get a good price on a group purchase for an Arsenal SA-M7 I'll send in my deposit today! Here's a pic:
[img=left]http://ak-47.gunsnet.net/vb/attachment.php?s=59bfafcced2f800886977e953865c114&postid=167555[/img=left] Hard to beat Arsenal for quality/money. Btw, if you haven't heard of this rifle, check [url]http://www.ak-47.net/[/url] and look under Bulgaria Arsenal in the Forums. Is it poll time yet? [:)] |
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Posted: 11/30/2001 4:51:31 AM EDT
[#20]
Just to put my opinion in on the parts kit: If it is offered I will NOT buy it.
It still needs a receiver, and I have zero skills when it come to putting together a parts kit. I would much rather buy a full working gun than a bunch of parts. Plus I have no idea where to look for an AK receiver, much less know anything about an AK. Av. |
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Posted: 11/30/2001 5:52:53 AM EDT
[#21]
Here's my unsolicited opinion:
[b]Parts Kits[/b] - I can appreciate the intent behind a parts kit. Keeping the cost down and letting the end purchaser build what they want. The problems there is that I think more people than not want to receive a range-ready rifle. I know I wouldn't want to try to install a barrel myself, nor would I want to track down a gunsmith to do it for me. Also, there's really nothing "Limited Edition" about a LEGP Parts Kit. That's just a plain ol' group purchase. I think LEGP has become synonymous with "Something special that you cannot get anywhere else" [b]Quality -vs- Price[/b] - Some have suggested the Romanian SAR AKs for a LEGP. While this would certainly satisfy the price aspect, you will almost certainly be giving up a degree of quality. The two most common problems I've read about SARs over on ak-47.net is soft fire-control parts and canted front sights. If it were me, I sure wouldn't want to put the LEGP stamp on that. There are several other variations out there (Arsenal USA or the SA-M7 being great suggestions) that may cost more, but I believe the end result would be a much nicer, more reliable AK that the owner will be happier with. [b]Campy Clones[/b] - While CampyClone AKs are nice, my question would be who is going to Campy-ize them? I am under the impression that CampyClones are made, not bought. If that's the case, it would seem there would be a lot of time involved to build them. I don't know a whole lot about them, so I apologize if I'm wrong about them. I think this whole LEGP is a great concept. Thanks to a C&R license, I'll probably never be able to afford one. But I also think we need to slow down a bit so that careful consideration can be given to all proposals. In other words, perhaps only one LEGP at a time, which at the moment is the 1911. These guys doing the LEGPs are putting a lot of time and effort into them, and if they get overburdened, they might stop them all together. Again, that's just my opinion. Thanks for reading. LL |
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Posted: 11/30/2001 6:55:22 AM EDT
[#22]
Lightning Link said it best!
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Posted: 11/30/2001 7:03:20 AM EDT
[#23]
Quoted: ...... LEGP is for ONLY those elite posters that know every nuance, limitation, law, feature, add-on, custom detail. Any other suggestions will be taunted, chastised, belittled..... Maybe if you quit running into the chicken house waving your arms and screaming, the chickens might lay more eggs? I certainly hope that the 2001 AR15.Com LEGP at $660.00 delivered was not viewed as something for elite posters. It was meant to be a great price on a great rifle. If a potential buyer looked at it & did some comparisons I hope they learned more about ARs. Maybe the M4 config caused a perception problem but that seemed to be the config with the most demand after about a month of listening & posting the preferences. I know RRA was a bit of an unknown factor to many but our choice of them was based upon their perfomance to the specs we requested and the quality they provided to be evaluated. By going with a rifle NOT in their product line we tried to keep from upsetting regular FFLs selling that brand because we were selling something unique basically to a closed market those FFLs had no insight to. We did not ask for anything special that a mfgr would not give to any other customer on a purchase order of several hundred complete rifles. That said, we have pissed off many distributors who have pressured mfgrs to not deal with us. |
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Posted: 11/30/2001 9:55:13 AM EDT
[#24]
Quoted: I know RRA was a bit of an unknown factor to many but our choice of them was based upon their perfomance to the specs we requested and the quality they provided to be evaluated. By going with a rifle NOT in their product line we tried to keep from upsetting regular FFLs selling that brand because we were selling something unique basically to a closed market those FFLs had no insight to. We did not ask for anything special that a mfgr would not give to any other customer on a purchase order of several hundred complete rifles. That said, we have pissed off many distributors who have pressured mfgrs to not deal with us. |
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Posted: 11/30/2001 2:36:38 PM EDT
[#25]
Well as a person who owns both ARs and AKs, and who would be VERY much interested in a LEGP AK, I would suggest the following.
Campyclones are nice, I built one, but it is not up to LEGP standards without serious work. SAR-2s are all but non-existant, in quantity at least. SARs are not ideal for this purpose without a hell of a lot of work and extra expense. I would suggest a 7.62, even though I prefer the 5.45. I would also suggest we look into buying Arsenals. I have an SLR-95 and an SA-93 and they are both works of art. For the money, they blow SARs away. True, there was a time when SARs could be had for $225ish, those days are gone. You now will pay between $350 and $400 for one new. Add good wood or a synthetic stock, reparking or gunkoting and a muzzle break and you are talking $500 at least. You can get a brand new SA-M7 from Arsenal for the same money and it is perfect the way it is, all it would need would be the LEGP stamping. Mags for both calibres are cheap, slightly cheaper for the 5.45 but not by by much. Ammo is cheaper for the 7.62 and spare parts are more readily available. Just my two cents. |
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Posted: 11/30/2001 3:48:29 PM EDT
[#26]
Quoted: So I gather that "Rabbit9" is in either way... [;)] I can't help it antiUSSA, I've got a jones for a com-bloc toy![:D] Edited to say that I appreciate the time and effort that you are willing to put into things like this on our behalf. |
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Posted: 11/30/2001 6:42:14 PM EDT
[#27]
thanks for the comments on the rifle guys!
i would like to point out a few details. 1. ak smithing is much more difficult and tooling intensive than an ar-15. therefore, parts kits are impractical, even for the few that might desire them. 2. unless grin & tim buy k-var's rather pricey parts kits (or contract with arsenal bulgaria...hmmmmm? now there's an idea!!!), 5.45 are in short supply. so, for better or worse, 7.62x39 may be the only viable alternative. as i have suggested before, doing a deal with gordontech or globaltrades may be a cost effective way to get a semi-custom configuration with reasonable quantities and final pricing. |
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Posted: 12/1/2001 5:40:05 AM EDT
[#28]
[b]ATTENTION MEMBERS:[b]
Poll added on page 1 |
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Posted: 12/1/2001 7:50:42 AM EDT
[#29]
This should be interesting. Oh crap, I'm not going to say it, I'll just watch.
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Posted: 12/1/2001 8:28:04 AM EDT
[#30]
Quoted: This should be interesting. Oh crap, I'm not going to say it, I'll just watch. Yeah, I know...trust me, based on past performances everything will be taken with a grain of salt |
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Posted: 12/1/2001 9:06:07 AM EDT
[#31]
Here's what I'd like to see: A Bulgarian/Arsenal in 7.62, milled receiver (obviously) as mentioned several times by others.
The one thing I would like to see added is to have the optics rail pre-installed on the side of the receiver. My SLR-95 is great, but since it doesn't have a rail, and I haven't gotten around to changing it, it is stuck with a B-Square mount which makes cleaning a pain. Count me in! |
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Posted: 12/1/2001 1:38:24 PM EDT
[#32]
I am VERY interested!!!!!!!!
Is there a final configuration? What is the price. I'm in as long as it's under $500. An AK in the AK-74 format with scope rail would be perfect. To include a scope like seen in this picture [url]http://wsphotofews.excite.com/013/Zm/OG/pU/IX57745.jpg[/url] and the gun wouold be complete. The scope could be one of several acessories. Matter of fact the gun pictured above would be perfect as LEGP!!! BISHOP |
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Posted: 12/1/2001 2:20:10 PM EDT
[#33]
[/quote] [blue]Would you like this with or without the solid rocket boosters, and does the attached the beverage cooler need to be high or low volume..?[/blue][/quote] how much more for the adjustable beverage cooler? |
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Posted: 12/1/2001 2:29:39 PM EDT
[#34]
If this happens, I will jump on it. I am waiting to see what happens with it though, since I am undecided about the 1911 or an AK (I have neither).
If this goes through in the spring/summer I will be in. I would rather get the AK than the 1911. Av. |
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Posted: 12/1/2001 3:33:20 PM EDT
[#35]
I think that if you bring in a quality AK under 500 dollars that you will see a LOT of people jump on it. Myself included. Just make sure that this happens in Feb. or Mar. of next year. Would've liked to get in on the 1911, but being so close to Christmas, it wasn't financially feasible.
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Posted: 12/1/2001 5:29:24 PM EDT
[#36]
I think if we are going to do this it has to be done damn soon. Unless all the components, especially barrels, are available through US manufacturers there is a good chance parts might become scarce and drive prices up. Not an issue with ARs and 1911s since they are manufactured here, but ATF has done all kinds of fun things with restricting imports on parts, especially barrels from what I understand.
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Posted: 12/1/2001 9:53:54 PM EDT
[#37]
Its all a matter of pricing and specs. Now or later doesn't really make a difference to me. If its a good gun at a good price I'd be happy to buy one.
Thanks to the guys working on this.. Guncrazy223 |
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Posted: 12/2/2001 12:53:38 PM EDT
[#38]
OH-yes.
I want one. bring a quality SAR-2(or SAR-1, as my second choice) clone, and I will buy at least one. I need an AK, have klnown it for 3 months now, and an LEGP AK would be great. Please-quality, tho. Like Vector Arms does, going for a weapon that is better quality than your average military piece. K-Vars are very sweet guns, for example. I have no doubts that Castle can set us all up with standard, low-frills CampyClones, and because I'm not planning on the 2002 LEGP, I'd want to get my hands on one soon. Juggernaut |
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Posted: 12/2/2001 5:26:08 PM EDT
[#39]
YES!! LEGP AK 1. 5.45 2. 7.62
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Posted: 12/2/2001 7:43:18 PM EDT
[#40]
I'm interested if its more of a "stock" AK & not some juiced up "varmint gun on steroids" version.
By the way anti, do you still have the AK you had at the riverfront gun show? Just wondering... |
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Posted: 12/3/2001 6:10:38 AM EDT
[#41]
HappyBlaster: Yes he does. Had a buyer for it in MO & just holding until he collects but can always get another like it for him. He has never seen this one. Just likes the price.
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Posted: 12/3/2001 6:19:47 AM EDT
[#42]
Quoted: I'm interested if its more of a "stock" AK & not some juiced up "varmint gun on steroids" version. By the way anti, do you still have the AK you had at the riverfront gun show? Just wondering... Yep, but since you are in the same town, we need to have beers first! [:D] |
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Posted: 12/3/2001 4:12:05 PM EDT
[#43]
Quoted: I'm interested if its more of a "stock" AK & not some juiced up "varmint gun on steroids" version. I agree with HappyBlaster. No offense intended to Campy as that is indeed a fine rifle, but that is a bit more than I could handle. I would want something that is simple and sweet. My pick would be an AK-74 on a stamped receiver. FAL style pistol grip. KVAR black plastic furniture. Side rail for optics. AK-74 Brake. (One that screws onto front site) Hunter fire control parts. (tuned + stoned) Slightly heavier barrel than SAR-2. Thumb-switch safety add-on. Parkerize and then teflon-moly coat the whole thing. While my list almost duplicates what Campy has made, there are subtle differences. No scope being one of them. I'm not sure about Campy's method for mounting his brake, so I can't say that my suggestion is any different than his for certain, but I suspect that his isn't like that. I also don't know what kind of fire control parts Campy has, but my hunch is that he has different parts inside his rifle. So on for the rest of the stuff... I think my suggestions would make for a very accurate rifle with an excellent trigger and lots of versatility. The brake can come off if you want to bump it. Almost THE perfect AK-74 from a functional standpoint. The user can add whatever optics they want later... |
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Posted: 12/3/2001 5:08:19 PM EDT
[#44]
Quoted: k-k, limited edition group purchase. how could one live another day without owning one of these? heheheheh! [img]http://wsphotofews.excite.com/013/Zm/OG/pU/IX57745.jpg[/img] modern, lightweight thermoset polymer furniture...side sling...polymer, bakelite or steel mags (starting a $5/each!)...lightweight (under 7lbs.)...fully functional and legal military brake (funny...the soviets catalog them as "flame extinguishers"!!!) that the batf has approved for LOOSE THREADED INSTALLATION (no weld, no pins, no silver solder...and yes, the atf letter is available for posting)...optional reknown optics from novosibirsk, such as the 4x rangefinding ,illuminated reticule and equipped with infrared detection model pso-1, the pso-4 "lynx" or the autocollimeter (red dot) model "kobra". all mount with a quick detach lever on the standard com-bloc optic rail! all this and more...with the world reknown reliability of a kalashnikov! I've never been a big AK fan , but if it looks like this I'd definitely be interested sometime after the first of the year. |
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Posted: 12/3/2001 5:18:29 PM EDT
[#45]
Quoted: Well as a person who owns both ARs and AKs, and who would be VERY much interested in a LEGP AK, I would suggest the following. Campyclones are nice, I built one, but it is not up to LEGP standards without serious work. SAR-2s are all but non-existant, in quantity at least. SARs are not ideal for this purpose without a hell of a lot of work and extra expense. I would suggest a 7.62, even though I prefer the 5.45. I would also suggest we look into buying Arsenals. I have an SLR-95 and an SA-93 and they are both works of art. For the money, they blow SARs away. True, there was a time when SARs could be Just my two cents. Any good web sites for any of these AK clone manufacturers? |
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Posted: 12/3/2001 7:00:25 PM EDT
[#46]
[url]http://www.tennesseeguns.com/firearms.html[/url]
The above link will show you most of the higher quality rifles being sold. They are all AK-47's of one sort or another. The SA-M7 is nice and modern. The SSR-85B or SSR-85C are nice and more traditional. SAR-2's are the only currently made AK-74 to my knowledge other than the Vepr-2. The Vepr-2 is not a bad rifle, but I don't like the foregrip or the front site at all as they are non-traditional and they don't seem to look as good as a normal ak-74 front end. There is a Bulgarian AK-74 kit being imported that REALLY looks nice. Get a good receiver, Gordon Tech Fire-control set, and a stock set from KVAR and you are in business. Problem is I can't seem to find any AK-74 receivers out there... God forbid we re-use old SAR-2 receivers as that would be a waste of time and effort to re-invent the wheel so to speak. [img]http://www.k-varcorp.com/image02/ak74websmall.JPG[/img] [img]http://www.k-varcorp.com/image02/aks74websmall.JPG[/img] [url]http://www.k-varcorp.com/ak74partset.htm[/url] Edited to fix link "I want one of those above!" - Waverunner Edited to fix other link. Thanx Waverunner! :) I want one of those too... |
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Posted: 12/4/2001 5:37:01 AM EDT
[#47]
Hey Wave....what DON'T you want?
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Posted: 12/4/2001 8:51:17 AM EDT
[#48]
Quoted: Hey Wave....what DON'T you want? Uh, oh yeah.... |
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Posted: 12/4/2001 4:43:48 PM EDT
[#49]
Oohh, I want one with a bayonet!
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Posted: 12/4/2001 6:36:38 PM EDT
[#50]
Quoted: Oohh, I want one with a bayonet! You can have the bayonet[beer] |
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