Not to add any more fuel to the fire but... looking at the picture from Kieslers website does it seem just a lil' odd that the lot# is covered up by strategic placement of the cartridges? Shenigans or coincedence? The Truth is out there.

If only .50 was as cheap as .223, I would be ordering from Ammoman daily!

Boycot Kieslers!!!!

This will leave more ammo for me. [}:D]

whaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa
whaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa
whaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa
whaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa

Get over it.  You still got good ammo.  Typos do happen.

My guess is you got pissy with them first and they didn't want to deal with you.

I have delt with them literally hundereds of times. Any (of the few) mistake has been quickly taken care of.

Are you one of the guys who orders from the aution sites them sends bad remarks toward the seller if he hasn't contacted you 3 seconds after the aution has ended?  

Whaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa
Whaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa
Whaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa

Shoot it, get over it.

Let's see.  The Federal XM193 first surfaced in mid to late 2001.  The cases bore an "LC00" headstamp.  We all know that military ammunition shipped from LCAAP bears the headstamp of the year it was produced.  Are we absolutely certain that the "LC00"-stamped cases weren't just surplus, as in left-over, 2000 cases that LCAAP used for the first Federal XM193 run in 2001?  That would make it "2001" production ammunition.

Does anyone really know the true production date(s) of Lot 1?

Hey, it turns out my 1994 GMC Suburban was actually manufactured in late 1993.

I'm going to sue!

The point is it wasn't a mistake.  I just got my order and it is 2000 Lot 1.  That's all they have left and they knew it.  They also knew what they advertised.

Not to be picky, it can't be .223 Remington and be milspec.  The ad indicates both.  If it is milspec, it is 5.56.

Larry,

It certainly can be .223 Remington and be made with Mil-Spec components.

I am the Ralph Nader of this website. I bring death to evil companies, including RGUNS, Tampco, and Classic Arms. I have E-mailed Kieslers. I'll back your persistance.

These rules are not written in stone. In fact, the rules can be very flexible depending on the level of volumn you have with the credit card company. I have only had to use this specific method once, when a vendor pulled the same crap on me the pulled on brouhaha. The credit card company issued a charge back before I shipped the merchandise back to the seller. A couple of days later the seller sent me my return label and that was that.

What does tihs mean? Is Federal no longer making .223 ammo? I am confused...

I will agree that the freshness/quality difference between 2000 and 2001 ammo should be minimal to negligible,  but if I go to buy a 2001 model year car and later upon checking the VIN with the manufacturer I discover it's a 2000 instead (but the two years are IDENTICAL in manufacture to the smallest detail) then I will most certainly raise bloody hell and hit the roof.   It IS a violation of the UCC to misrepresent a product like that, and it should NOT be ignored.

I have never (yet) ordered from Ammoman or Kiesler's, but now I'm sure that as far as Ammoman is concerned, he doesn't have to worry about me ordering from the competition.  I won't buy from Kiesler's.


Why don't we get together and start a letter writing campaign regarding the decision to stop offering Lake City ammo to the public?   Apply enough pressure, and they will reconsider their decision.

Just post the address and I'll fire off a letter today.


CJ

I have never ordered from Kieslers, and from what I have read here, I will never order from them. If they advertise 2001 ammo, then it should damn well be 2001 ammo, period. Small mistake my ass, there are no small mistakes in business, only whoppers.

Hey conferderate, next time you make a mistake at work let me know.  Since it is business I bet it will be a whopper.  I can call your boss and let him know.

Talk about making a mountain out of a mole hill.

On second thought.  I have had orders not filled from Kieslers because they didn't have enough in stock.  Everyone keep attcking them here so they have more ammo at great prices that I can buy and resell and put my kids through college.

When I make I mistake at work it is very well hidden, even if it is a whopper, I'm usually the only one who knows.[:D]

"it's   tough to make a mistake, but it's still tougher to find out you're so unimportant that no one noticed it"  lighten up lol! [beer]

Green18 that was waaaaaaaaaaaay to funny.  LMAO

FWIW, the ammo I received from ammoman last week is headstamped " LC 00" and is marked "Lot 6" so there would have had to be quite a bit of "leftover" brass.

obershutze916 = Kieslers employee [:K]


ColtShorty

GOA KABA COA JPFO SAF NRA

"I won't be wronged,  I won't be insulted
and I won't be laid a hand on. I don't do
these things to other people and I require
the same from them."

DavidC,

If I recall correctly, Lot-4 was in "LC01" brass.  Just because the brass is 00 or 01 does not necessarily mean that the ammunition is 2000 or 2001 production.  Army practice is that the headstamp will reflect the year of production so 00 brass isn't supposed to be used for 2001 production ammunition...[b][red]FOR THE ARMY[/b][/red].  This isn't Army ammunition and yes, there could be a substantial amount of "LC00" brass left over that otherwise would have to be scrapped.

I exchanged emails with Terry Rush from Kiesler's last night.  I suggested that he might wish to contact Federal and determine the actual production dates for the various lots of XM193.  He indicated that he would be doing that first thing.

Further info.  Lot-3 and Lot-4 were both reported to be loaded in "LC01" cases and Lot-6 is reported to be loaded in "LC00" cases.

Just to further confuse the issue:

I've only opened 1 box from the several cases of the XM193 I got from ammoman, and reported that the boxes were marked "LOT 6" and the cases headstamped "LC 00"

Further investigation of that same box shows 16 rounds headstamped "LC 01" and 4 rounds headstamped "LC 00"

I'm not willing to start opening up the cases I received, and I really wasn't planning on opening any more of the boxes in the one case I did open, but if there's a real interest in what the headstamps are, I'll open another box or two from the case I've already opened.

For what it is worth:…  All took place 4-5-02

Here is an e-mail response that Kieserler’s “Customer Service” sent to me regarding this subject when I questioned their offering 2001 and shipping 2000 dated ammo:

“I am writing in reference to your inquiry. First, we were told when we purchased this ammo it was 2001 manufactured. We have found some to be 2000 manufactured. Thank you, Customer Service”

This to me indicated that they were fully aware of this issue and continued to misrepresent the merchandise.  

Then in further correspondence...

“I am writing in reference to your inquiry. We purchased the ammo as 2001 manufacture. We can't open each box to determine manufacture year. Therefore, if you are not satisfied with this purchase please return for a full refund but the shipping coming back to us with be paid by you. Thank you, Customer Service”

Similar response as others have received.  Only why should a customer eat the cost of their issues?  

We will see what happens from here but there is a principal of integrity that apparently they are unaware of and need to be reminded.  I used a credit card that is 100% protected against FRAUD.  We will see what the card company thinks of this.

AN OFFER TO ANYONE AFFECTED:

I don't really care if my LC ammo is this year's production or last year's or 2000's, because I'll be shooting it up pretty quickly just to get some QUALITY brass for my much more accurate reloads anyway!

(You know you're a serious reloader when you shoot to reload, instead of reload to shoot!)

I will buy ONE CASE (1000 rounds) of this "wrong" 2000 marked LC ammo at the price you paid for it, plus shipping to zip code 32937, via UPS ground,  and pay via PayPal.

This offer expires as soon as a deal is formally struck for it.

I'm serious.   This is a genuine offer.
First come, first served.

Chris Johnson

(CJ)

It is becomming more and more evident that the brass used for the XM193 was surplus, unused brass leftover from prior years production of military ammunition.  The brass was available, probably at scrap prices and Federal is under no obligation to follow the military's system of identifying year of loading/manufacture by the headstamp.  If they did that, the brass would have an "FC00" or "FC01" headstamp and cost a few cents per round more.

As for Kiesler's saying some of the ammunition was 2000 manufacture, well, they must have looked at the headstamp and leapt to the same conclusion as some people here.

do they do C.O.D.? if so, order lots of ammo!!!!!!and then refuse delivery!bet the manager will talk w/ you then!i mean,you have no intention of doing business w/ them agin,right?it is false advertising and you need to do something to recieve the customer satisfaction that you didnt get!if you paid w/ a credit card,dispute it. if you paid w/ check,cancel it!

[b]
Could someone please clue me in on why this ammo is so special????

Also, what do these stand for: LC, SHTF?

Thanks

[/b]

That could backfire if the shipment turned out to be correct...

If you COD merchandise, and the merchandise that was shipped was not what was ordered, then at the time of delivery, check the contents and reject the shipment. I don't see why that would be illegal.

However, if the package is what you ordered and you rejected it on purpose, that may be considered intent to do monetary damage to a business, while possibly committing wire fraud and interstate fraud... hmm.... the criminal charges could add up, possibly become a federal offense, etc... and since it involved "gun accessories or ammunition", they will have a field day...

LC = Lake City
SHTF = Sh*t Hits The Fan

The brass is milspec, which makes it great for reloading, among other things.

I kinda hate to say this but it is the principal of it.  Say what you mean and mean what you say.  If the consumer allows merchants to misrepresent merchandise than how can a consumer ever complain about being taken advantage of???  This is no different that Unions and what they indirectly do for non-union shops.  If it were not for Unions, most of us would work in sweatshops.

Here is a URL for the Better Business Bureau:

http://www.bbb.org/It links to Consumer Guidance, to File a Complaint About a Company.   From there,
http://www.bbb.org/bbbcomplaints/Welcome.asp  you can file a complaint.  May be a waste of time, may not.  If enough complain.

Personally, I think I’ll file the complaint, and keep the ammo.  Good ammo – good price = good deal.  But I’ll probably never do business with them again.  Oh well, live and learn.  And shoot, and learn some more.

I like to spread the wealth around and keep good competitive retail alive.  What would prices be if there wasn’t healthy competition?

I had the same thing happen to me! I order some IMI M855 2001 from Coles! When I got it it was 1999!!
I would be upset to spend 1000 dollars on a product that was miss lead!

The entire issue boils down to a matter of principle. In a sense it is not that he got ammo that may be a year older than advertised, but it is the way he was treated once he had paid for it.

I believe that there is a special place in hell for people that have poor customer relations skills.

The whole thing actually boils down to whether or not the ammunition was produced in 2000 or 2001.  Kiesler's told me that Federal sold them 3 million rounds of the ammunition and represented it as 2001 production ammunition.  They're checking with Federal for confirmation of the actual production dates.

Some hotheads see a LC00 headstamp and leap to the conclusion that the ammunition was made in 2000.  Lot-6, ammunition apparently made in 2002, is loaded in cases stamped both LC00 and LC01.  So when was that made?  

Are they not going to make this ammo anymore?

Why is it such a "hot" item??? I know its milspec, but won't they continue to make it???

I know it sucks a bit, but why keep it going?

Use it, sell it to friends, etc....

Is it worth the effort?

Just my $0.02

I just got off the phone with Doug Kiesler, CEO of the company.  He gave me quite a bit of information on the XM193 ammunition that many probably aren't aware of.  I will be posting more on this subject in Ammunition, but for now, I would say that confusion over the actual production dates on the XM193 apparently is on Federal, not Kiesler's.  The ammunition was represented as 2001 production by Federal.  Based on the description of the details of the purchase by Kiesler's, if all of it wasn't new, 2001 production ammunition in LC00 cases, then some of it might, MIGHT, have been Olin-made 2000 production ammunition that never left the LCAAP warehouse.  Even if some of it is 2000 production, it was properly stored and every bit as good as 2001 production and will likely be shot up long before it goes bad.  Either way, there is absolutely no way to tell when it was actually manufactured.  

Bottom line; Kiesler's took the representations by Federal as fact, and they may have been accurate.  Kiesler's simply cannot open every box and check every head stamp, and even if they did, the nature of the deal is such that the head stamp date cannot be taken as evidence of the year of production.

Give me a little while to put that info together, and in the meantime, please cool your jets and take a deep breath.

Dave-G, you are right.  I now know you are right, most everyone now knows you are right.  I pretty much thought this product could be new manufacturer in old components.  Obviously, the age of a brass case does not effect the quality or shelf life.  And this price off sets it even if it did.
I do however believe the issue here is more the representation of the product by Kieslers, not Federal, and the attitude Kieslers customer service had in dealing with this.  I say Kieslers and NOT Federal because I did not buy it from Federal nor buy it based on anything from Federal.  I went to Kieslers, and bought it based on Kieslers representation.  If Kieslers did not do their homework on this then that is their problem, not Federals.  These things happen all the time in retail and they are often nobody’s fault or just the result of poor communications.  But the fact that Kiesler was aware of the issue and failed to address it prudently, is a problem. The fact that because Federal represented it as one thing and it may, or may not, be another, is not a problem.  But I should eat the cost of returning it if it were a problem???  (not that I would have because I wouldn’t. If it were stamped 99 it is a good product at a good price) And no sh*t they can’t open every box.  That comment from their customer service is most of what set me off.  Do they all share an IQ???  And knowingly or not, misrepresentation is still fraud.

Bottom line here is not “Kiesler's took the representations by Federal as fact”.  It is that they had an issue, they failed to address the issue in a timely and prudent manor, and they pissed off a lot of people.  Not so much for the product, but because of their lack of communication and customer service skills.  They obviously need training in customer service and complaint resolution.  Had this been handled in a reasonable manor they would not have half the problems they have had over this.  Had they responded with something like:  “Yes, you are right, we have discovered a problem with this shipment from Federal.  It was represented to us as 2001 production, and it may be 2001 production however assembled in some 2000 components.  We are looking into it and would like to respond to your inquiry when we know what has happened with this.  We work very hard for our reputation and strive for customer satisfaction.  We will do what is right for you.”  Dave, I don’t think too many people would say much of anything but – ah, Ok, ah, thanks.  And if anyone was really upset, I’d bet that an offer to refund the shipping would have reconciled them.  But no, Kieslers basically responded with – It is not our fault – and – What do you want us to do about it – and – you can send it back…, but you are paying the freight.  When I get a response like that I tend to get real…  oh…, defensive.  And I tend to get a little reactive.  And I tend to decide what is going to happen with the issue and not just accept something someone has told me I am going to do or not do.  It is probably a poor trait but we all have at least one bad trait.  And the absolute worst thing that happened over all of this is that Kieslers may have lost customers.  And without customers, there is no Kieslers.

Rags,

They relied on the word of the manufacturer that the product was 2001 production, which it most likely was.  They were first notified that there was a discrepancy on April 4th.  They offered to refund the full purchase price on ammunition that was not defective in any way if you returned the ammunition at your expense on April 5th.  You didn't like that.  You wanted [b]"Either replacement of the order with 2001 ammunition or a 15% compensatory adjustment."[/b]  So the ammunition was fine with you if you just got your 15 more boxes for free, which means the ammunition wasn't a problem in the first place.

On Saturday, April 6th, their Internet rep became aware of the "problem."  The first thing Monday morning, he removed the "2001 Production" line from their online ad.

This morning, April 9th, you accepted their offer of the 15 boxes of the same ammunition as the adjustment you demanded.

These are the actions of a reputable company reacting to the demands of an unreasonable customer in a reasonable manner.  You made your first demand based on uninformed conclusion you leapt to on Friday.  The first thing Monday, they corrected the ad and the first thing Tuesday they made a very generous offer to make you happy.

Considering their actions and the representations of Federal, Kiesler's committed no fraud or misrepresentation.  They reacted in a timely manner to correct the ad and satisfy the customer.

Glad to see that Kieslers was able to work things out, brouhaha.

I will indeed continue to do business with them.

Big thanks to Dave_G for looking into things as well - Great job bro! [beer]

Tyler

Dave_G – apparently you have a problem comprehending what I said.  YOU ARE RIGHT.  I said the issue was not the dating.  At first that is what I was reacting to but later realized the problem was the components, and not a real problem at all.  Too bad Kieslers wasn’t as quick and sharp as you are and resolved this by pointing that out.  Do you own stock in Kieslers or what.  Again the issue I had was the way they, or the lack of the way they responded to my inquiry.
And once again, you are right.  I didn’t like an offer to return a product that was misrepresented, for whatever reason, at my expense.  I simply won’t take a loss if it is not my problem.  Whether it is Federals misrepresentation or Kieslers or yours, I don’t really care.  Honest mistake or fraud, it doesn’t really matter.  I will not take the loss.  I don’t know where you get your info but the information provided to me by their customer service rep was that they were aware of this well before April 4th.  I asked Kieslers what they wanted to do.  I received no explanation, and no recommendation, other than to blame Federal.    So I made the suggestion of they pay the freight back or a 15% discount.  At that point, they were, and from my contact with them, still have not, offered me an explanation other than to blame Federal.  THEY ARE SELLING THE STUFF.  They need to accept the responsibility of that.  That whole issue is between Federal and them.
You seem to know a lot.  They made me an offer???  I accepted an offer???  I DEMANDED 15 boxes as compensation???  You know a lot more than I do.  I never accepted anything.  I never demanded an adjustment.  I asked them, back at the beginning of all this, what they wanted to do.  When they blew me off, so I made a suggestion. And they continued to do everything BUT explain the problem.  And you again have a problem understanding this, I have already said that you are right, I reacted to misunderstanding the marking on the brass.  How many times is it going to take for you to get that.  Where are you getting your info.  I’d like to be let in on it.  Why didn't they simply explain what the problem was.  
And it is pretty easy for you to sit back and Monday morning quarterback this all now.  Even I know all of this now.  I'd never have contacted them if I knew then what I know now.  Not real hard making the decisions with what I know now.  Just too bad Kieslers did'nt help me out with the information.  I had to wait for you to explain it all to me.
Too bad they weren’t as smart as you are and pointed all of this out at the onset.  But no, they just blamed someone else and said... send it back, “shipping would need to be paid by you” of course.  Maybe you should start a post, and sense you are the all knowing just resolve these issues BEFORE they occur.  That sure would save me a lot of grief.  Too bad I’m not as smart as you are, then I’d have known all of this and none of this would have happened.  You sure take a lot of this personally.  What is your interest in all of this?  Can’t be just trying to help out because you went way beyond that.  Why did you get so involved???  If only Kieslers had responded to my inquiry like they did yours.  You must be special.  Mom always did like you best.

I almost forgot, I'm getting 15 boxes?  Thanks, for letting me know.

Dude, is this really you?

[img]http://www.ar15.com/members/albums/Dave%5FG%2Flibertyof76%2Ejpg[/img]