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Posted: 7/3/2018 12:46:55 PM EDT
[#1]
6.25" KAK 300BLK W/ PDW Stock and a micro dot
preferably suppressed everything from 110gr @  Attached File |
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Posted: 7/3/2018 1:03:32 PM EDT
[#2]
4.5” 5.56 & 5.9” .300Blk |
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Posted: 7/3/2018 1:11:37 PM EDT
[#3]
I think the newest trend is 5.5” blk with a faster twist.
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Posted: 7/3/2018 1:14:42 PM EDT
[#4]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
4.5" 5.56 & 5.9" .300Blk |
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Posted: 7/3/2018 2:02:01 PM EDT
[#5]
Quoted:
I am seemingly always on a quest to make my SBR AR lower into the perfect for me PDW. To that effect, I have wanted something that's small but still has sufficient punch to get something done. I don't currently suppress anything centerfire but I will buy a can shortly. I already have the lower done, that's why I want to stick with the AR platform. I have tried adding a Law Folder, but that makes it heavier and a bit longer, plus it can't fire folded. I don't love the ballistics or noise of 556 below about 10.5" barrel, so I ended up with an 8" 300BO. but by the time I have a noveske pig on it, it's back up to like 11" and heavier than it feels like it needs to be. I have seen like 4" barrel 9mm and while i like the ballistics a bit, it still feels like it may be under powered. I also don't have Glocks, so the mag interchangeability is lost on me. I would also need a block of some sort to make it work in my lower. So what's the ideal set up/caliber/parts list to make a short AR that runs and still works for HD? I'm thinking about an LWRC ultra compact set up, maybe one of those new 6" 300 BO barrels when they get shaken out, but I"m not sold. show or tell your set up! Its all a function of bullet weight and velocity at impact. get to work on some ballistics calculators and find your answer once youve really defined the problem you are looking to solve. |
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Posted: 7/3/2018 2:31:02 PM EDT
[#6]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Put holes in paper? Make noise on steel? Kill critters? Its all a function of bullet weight and velocity at impact. get to work on some ballistics calculators and find your answer once youve really defined the problem you are looking to solve. |
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Posted: 7/3/2018 2:35:19 PM EDT
[#7]
6" 300 Blackout
RTB 6" 300 blackout barrel SLR 5.25" handguard 8" 5.56 BA 8" 5.56 barrel DD Lite Rail II 7.0 
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Posted: 7/3/2018 2:37:08 PM EDT
[#8]
Quote History@m6z what barrels and rails? also caliber?
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Posted: 7/3/2018 2:40:34 PM EDT
[#9]
Quote HistoryQuoted: @m6z what barrels and rails? also caliber? |
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Posted: 7/3/2018 3:04:33 PM EDT
[#10]
Quote HistoryQuoted: @IHTFP08 I have a 22 upper when I want to put holes in paper or shoot for cheap. I'm looking for something that will serve for home defense against 2 legged animals and maybe stray dog sized critters. No pigs or long range. But I think you said it yourself about 5.56 and 10.5" barrels, so youre really just looking for something other than the obvious choice, which is 5.56 in a >10.5" barrel. I think you need to look at MV vs Barrel length, and then energy at your max range. So it looks like a shorter barrel and larger bullet. .300blk or 6.5g, or even some of the big bore calibers but youre trading some capacity for that extra energy. Personally, I think youre placing too much emphasis on the short overall length, when concealability or transportability isnt a HD concern. I like 11.5" 5.56 or even 12.5" 6.5G. Plus no chance for mixed up calibers since they don't use the same mags. They are all going to be loud expecially without a can |
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Posted: 7/3/2018 3:07:52 PM EDT
[#11]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Personally, I think youre placing too much emphasis on the short overall length, when concealability or transportability isnt a HD concern. I like 11.5" 5.56 or even 12.5" 6.5G. Plus no chance for mixed up calibers since they don't use the same mags. They are all going to be loud expecially without a can |
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Posted: 7/3/2018 3:09:33 PM EDT
[#12]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I edited my post with info. |
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Posted: 7/3/2018 3:18:03 PM EDT
[#13]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
@m6z thanks! does a shorty 300 barrel like that cycle subs without a can? or does it need something on there for back pressure ? Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted: I edited my post with info. No luck on subs though. I guess the Sandman K doesn't have enough back pressure. I bought it for supers mainly, subs were not that quiet anyways. |
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Posted: 7/3/2018 3:23:21 PM EDT
[#14]
Quote HistoryQuoted: @IHTFP08 I forgot to put this in the original post, but I am interested in a shorter length for transportation and travel with it as well. I would like to use it for a hotel/travel gun when I stay in the state on top of HD roles. I also like shorter for the ease of carry and use inside the house. I'd take a hard look at 6.5g vs 300blk energy, even with lower velocities from shorter barrels. steel cased ammo is a plus. but keep in mind silencer barrel length ratings too. |
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Posted: 7/3/2018 3:49:37 PM EDT
[#15]
when speaking of the super short builds. I'm playing on the other side of the fence thinking a smaller cartridge that has a powder burn range more appropriate to the barrel length makes more sense. I'm running a wildcat called .223 short and with a 40gr jhp it's 2660-2700ft/sec from a 6" barrel and muzzle blast is far more tame than the 7.5" 5.56 I had.
something like the 22 tcm would be a similar approach. you also have to consider the shorter the cartridge the longer the effective barrel length. (since the bullet is in the rifling sooner vs later. ie. 1.15" case vs 1.75" case= .600" longer effective barrel length. if one could get barnes or similar to make a light for caliber bullet (thinking ~50-60gr) bullet in 25 cal on paper it could yield some impressive numbers from a shorter case |
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Posted: 7/3/2018 7:56:56 PM EDT
[#16]
Sig rattler upper in .300 with the folding stock adapter??
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Posted: 7/5/2018 1:14:59 PM EDT
[#17]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
6" 300 Blackout RTB 6" 300 blackout barrel SLR 5.25" handguard 8" 5.56 BA 8" 5.56 barrel DD Lite Rail II 7.0 https://farm1.staticflickr.com/910/28061796268_e4887c7823_k.jpg https://farm1.staticflickr.com/903/41888880562_3f32079b7d_k.jpg |
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Posted: 7/5/2018 1:51:06 PM EDT
[#18]
OP, quit trying to shove a square peg in a round hole and just get a Tavor SBR.
Better ballistics and shorter length than any AR. It’s the same OAL as a P-90! |
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Posted: 7/5/2018 2:02:33 PM EDT
[#19]
XM68GD will run 2550FPS from an 8.5" 6.8 barrel. I think that's the route I'll be going. I'll probably end up mixing it with a Sandman-K and LWRC UCIW stock.
Here is Mike's video comparing 6.8, .300 and 7.62x39.  AR 15 Pistol Uppers: Field Test- 6.8 SPC vs 300 Blackout vs 7.62x9 |
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Posted: 7/6/2018 5:29:01 AM EDT
[#20]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
OP, quit trying to shove a square peg in a round hole and just get a Tavor SBR. Better ballistics and shorter length than any AR. It’s the same OAL as a P-90! |
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Posted: 7/6/2018 9:18:29 AM EDT
[#21]
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Posted: 7/6/2018 9:50:16 AM EDT
[#22]
My shorties are still intended for self defense. My shortest 5.56 upper is 11.5 and my shortest 300BO is an 8-inch. I agree though the 300 BO can go shorter but I want decent velocity out of SuperSonics so even with the Blackout I don’t care to go shorter than 8 and in many ways would prefer it to be 10 for best supersonic performance.
Most fun, I had a 3-inch dedicated 22lr Upper on a M16. That was wickedly fast but reloading mags sucked. I’ve also used a 5-inch 9mm that was a lot of fun too but fun does not make them good self defense tools. |
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Posted: 7/31/2018 5:24:00 PM EDT
[#23]
According to this article and tests, a AR15 with a 7" or 10.5" barrel will do nicely for self defense with proper ammo:
AR-15 Pistol Ballistic Gel Testing Written by Greg EllifritzTopics: Articles With the ATF recently approving the SIG-designed “arm brace” attachment, AR-15 pistols have become quite popular. The arm brace was designed for disabled shooters to secure the pistol to their arms, but it also serves as a workable shoulder stock. This allows people to fire AR-15 pistols from the shoulder…in essence creating a short barreled rifle without all the ATF paperwork. The 5.56 mm cartridge gets the majority of its stopping power as a result of its high velocity. The velocity creates a fluid shock wave in the body that causes far more tissue damage than the missile itself. Unfortunately, velocity is diminished in shorter barrels. What kind of bullet penetration and expansion can one expect at various ranges with the short barreled pistols? A neighboring police agency recently set up a ballistic gel test with the assistance of an ATK/Speer representative in order to answer that question. They shot several different loads through a 7" barrel Sig AR pistol and a 10.5" barrel Colt M-4. The rounds were shot at both 10 yards and 83 yards (maximum distance on the range they were using). All shots were into calibrated bare gelatin. Here are the results: Load: Federal 55 grain Bonded Soft point Barrel LengthRangePenetrationAvg. ExpansionRetained Weight 10.5” 10 yards 14.5”.47”56 gr 10.5” 83 yards 14.5”.45”59 gr 7” 10 yards 18” .43” 53.3 gr 7” 83 yards 16” .45" 55.1 gr Load: Speer 55 grain Gold Dot Hollowpoint Barrel LengthRangePenetrationAvg. ExpansionRetained Weight 10.5” 10 yards 12.75” .56” 56 grains 10.5” 83 yards 11.5” .55” 58 grains 7” 10 yards 13.25" .50” 57.4 grains 7” 83 yards 12.5” .49” 56 grains Load: Speer Gold Dot 64 grain Hollowpoint Barrel LengthRangePenetrationAvg. ExpansionRetained Weight 10.5” 10 yards 14.5” .59” 63.5 grains 10.5” 83 yards 16” .52” 63 grains 7” 10 yards 18”.46” 66 grains Load: Hornady 62 grain TAP Barrier Barrel Length Range Penetration Avg. Expansion Retained Weight 10.5” 10 yards. 14.5” 42” 44.1 grains As a couple points of explanation, not all of the loads were tested at all ranges or through all guns because the ATK rep only had a limited number of ballistic gel blocks to shoot. Recovered bullet weights greater than initial weights were the result of bullets picking up bits of the ballistic gel during the expansion process. I’ll just post the data and leave the judgements up to you. I was honestly quite surprised at how most of the loads performed. Most retained full weight, had adequate penetration, and expanded to nearly twice their initial diameters. You really can’t ask more than that. The AR-15 pistol in 5.56mm looks to be an adequate performer, even with short barrels and longer than average engagement ranges! - See more at: http://www.activeresponsetraining.net/ar-15-pistol-ballistic-gel-testing#sthash.n2U4WWQv.dpuf |
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Posted: 8/15/2018 11:29:27 AM EDT
[#24]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
6.25" KAK 300BLK W/ PDW Stock and a micro dot preferably suppressed everything from 110gr @ 2100fps to 265gr subs https://www.AR15.Com/media/mediaFiles/409735/20170322_140001-595783.JPG |
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Posted: 8/15/2018 11:45:50 AM EDT
[#25]
AR57 6" upper with a can tucked in the rail.
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Posted: 8/15/2018 9:32:27 PM EDT
[#26]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
https://www.AR15.Com/media/mediaFiles/101965/039D3D61-D9EB-49AE-A372-3BA3E37FCD6D-571879.jpg 4.5” 5.56 & 5.9” .300Blk |
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Posted: 8/15/2018 10:30:48 PM EDT
[#27]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
AR57 6" upper with a can tucked in the rail.  Attached File |
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Posted: 8/16/2018 4:15:25 PM EDT
[#28]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
6.25" KAK 300BLK W/ PDW Stock and a micro dot preferably suppressed everything from 110gr @ 2100fps to 265gr subs https://www.AR15.Com/media/mediaFiles/409735/20170322_140001-595783.JPG |
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Posted: 8/16/2018 4:38:42 PM EDT
[#29]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Is that an actual number from a chrony? My 8.3 suppressed Barnes 110 TAC-TX was only hitting 2089 fps. I only get around 2050fps with the 110g tac-tx out of my 8" BA barrel. |
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Posted: 8/17/2018 12:01:35 PM EDT
[#30]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Is that an actual number from a chrony? My 8.3 suppressed Barnes 110 TAC-TX was only hitting 2089 fps. Quote HistoryQuoted: Is that an actual number from a chrony? My 8.3 suppressed Barnes 110 TAC-TX was only hitting 2089 fps. Quoted:
Quoted:
6.25" KAK 300BLK W/ PDW Stock and a micro dot preferably suppressed everything from 110gr @ 2100fps to 265gr subs https://www.AR15.Com/media/mediaFiles/409735/20170322_140001-595783.JPG 20gr H110 under 110 Noslers |
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Posted: 8/17/2018 12:07:32 PM EDT
[#31]
With 5.56/223, I'd personally not go lower than a 10.3 or higher than the 11.5.
There's currently a company taking pre orders to convert regular Pmags to 9x19 and you can use any 9mm upper. |
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Posted: 8/18/2018 6:29:59 AM EDT
[#32]
Im with Mini14jak.
I went down the rabbit hole as an early adopter of 6.8 spc because I wanted more from a suppressed sbr. But since then the .224 dia gold dot bullet has made 5.56 a viable and affordable sbr option. I liken it to my experience with 40 s&w. At the time it made sense. But bullet technology caught up and made the ubiquitous NATO rounds the way to go again. |
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Posted: 8/18/2018 11:37:34 PM EDT
[#33]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Oops I was looking at load data for another rifle (10.5") its actually 1925 FPS 20gr H110 under 110 Noslers Haven't had much of a desire to reload but I've played around with the idea of developing a home defense load for 5.5-6.5 inch barrels in 300blk. |
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Posted: 8/25/2018 10:12:03 PM EDT
[#34]
It’s by no means economical compared to 556 or even Blackout, but I imagine the 338 Spectre would be great out of a short barrel.
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