User Panel
User Panel
User Panel
|
Posted: 5/25/2020 12:46:24 AM EDT
[#1]
Yes you can send a letter to the ATF and have an SBR removed from the registry once it is no longer configured as an SBR.
A weapon with a rifled barrel <16" and a stock is an SBR, you would register it as an SBR on the Form 1. |
|
|
|
Posted: 5/25/2020 1:05:55 AM EDT
[#2]
One thing I never understood was that when you form 1 a SBR you create a new rifle. A pistol cannot be made from a rifle. I have never seen a letter that allows what is described but would sure like to. It always seemed like everyone took the TC decision and applied to form 1 guns even though to me it seems like a different situation.
|
|
|
|
Posted: 5/25/2020 1:27:05 AM EDT
[#3]
If you have a registered Lower and put a 16" barreled upper on it. it is no longer a SBR.
If you have a registered Lower and put a pistol brace on it is no longer a SBR, it is a pistol. Now, if they want to confiscate legally owned form1 or form 4 receivers, suppressors etc, then they can confiscate any and all receivers, they are all registered, just not in a centralized database. This, of course, is unconstitutional. If .gov did not want private ownership of SBR, suppressor etc. the laws would have to be changed. |
|
|
|
Posted: 5/25/2020 1:52:42 AM EDT
[#4]
Quote HistoryQuoted: One thing I never understood was that when you form 1 a SBR you create a new rifle. A pistol cannot be made from a rifle. I have never seen a letter that allows what is described but would sure like to. It always seemed like everyone took the TC decision and applied to form 1 guns even though to me it seems like a different situation. As long as the receiver that you are going to title 2, SBR, is a pistol first, you can go back to a pistol. |
|
|
|
Posted: 5/25/2020 2:19:46 AM EDT
[#5]
Quote HistoryQuoted: As long as the receiver that you are going to title 2, SBR, is a pistol first, you can go back to a pistol. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: One thing I never understood was that when you form 1 a SBR you create a new rifle. A pistol cannot be made from a rifle. I have never seen a letter that allows what is described but would sure like to. It always seemed like everyone took the TC decision and applied to form 1 guns even though to me it seems like a different situation. As long as the receiver that you are going to title 2, SBR, is a pistol first, you can go back to a pistol. Got a link or letter? Like I said I don’t think I’ve ever seen that. |
|
|
|
Posted: 5/25/2020 3:03:05 AM EDT
[#6]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Got a link or letter? Like I said I don’t think I’ve ever seen that. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: One thing I never understood was that when you form 1 a SBR you create a new rifle. A pistol cannot be made from a rifle. I have never seen a letter that allows what is described but would sure like to. It always seemed like everyone took the TC decision and applied to form 1 guns even though to me it seems like a different situation. As long as the receiver that you are going to title 2, SBR, is a pistol first, you can go back to a pistol. Got a link or letter? Like I said I don’t think I’ve ever seen that. ALASKANFIRE, To my knowledge, that is not written into law. Just as having a full auto BCG as written by law now is illegal to have in your AR but ATF deems it permissible. To shoulder or not shoulder a pistol brace is determined by fiat by the BATFE, not as written by any laws. They can decide whatever they want- bump stocks did not fit the lawful definition of a machine gun but were outlawed after BAFTE amended the law as written by Congress and the new, amended definition contradicts machine-gun definition as written by Congress. What a mess. What I do, and have done on several occasions, when I have a question about the laws or just procedural matters such as just one set of fingerprint cards needed for a batch of F1 or F4's is ask the experts using the eform website, they have always been very quick to answer and always helpful for me. Again, I don't think that Pistol>SBR>Pistol has been codified by Congress. Let us know their response if you contact them. |
|
|
|
Posted: 5/25/2020 3:07:01 AM EDT
[#7]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Got a link or letter? Like I said I don’t think I’ve ever seen that. You don’t need a link or a letter to show something is lawful. You need proof it is unlawful. Which doesn’t exist. So it’s lawful. |
|
|
|
Posted: 5/25/2020 5:37:00 AM EDT
[#8]
Quoted: You don’t need a link or a letter to show something is lawful. You need proof it is unlawful. Which doesn’t exist. So it’s lawful. Current law doesn’t allow making a pistol from a rifle. |
|
|
|
Posted: 5/25/2020 7:26:54 AM EDT
[#9]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Current law doesn’t allow making a pistol from a rifle. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: You don’t need a link or a letter to show something is lawful. You need proof it is unlawful. Which doesn’t exist. So it’s lawful. Current law doesn’t allow making a pistol from a rifle. However current law does allow you to make a pistol into a rifle and then back into a pistol. |
|
|
|
Posted: 5/25/2020 7:30:33 AM EDT
[#10]
IF that were not true then these guys would have been a problem a long time ago.
https://mechtechsys.com/ |
|
|
|
Posted: 5/25/2020 7:59:34 AM EDT
[#11]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Current law doesn’t allow making a pistol from a rifle. Even the ATF uses ruling 2011-4 as a basis for the legality of returning a pistol made into an SBR to a non-nfa (pistol) configuration. I'ts perfectly legal, and done every day..... You're not making a rifle by converting a pistol into an SBR, you are configuring the pistol in a manner where it must be registered as an NFA weapon, and that "configuration" just happens to be "SBR" No different than converting a pistol to an AOW by putting a VFG on it, then returning it to a pistol by removing the VFG |
|
|
|
Posted: 5/25/2020 8:07:26 AM EDT
[#12]
Quote HistoryQuoted: One thing I never understood was that when you form 1 a SBR you create a new rifle. A pistol cannot be made from a rifle. I have never seen a letter that allows what is described but would sure like to. It always seemed like everyone took the TC decision and applied to form 1 guns even though to me it seems like a different situation. This right here. It's unsettled law. In my mind, even and SBR that started out as a pistol turns into a rifle when it's "made" into an SBR. No longer has the pistol history, so it's always going to something made from a rifle. |
|
|
|
Posted: 5/25/2020 8:08:16 AM EDT
[#13]
If you have a registered Lower and put a pistol brace on it is no longer a SBR, it is a pistol. But it's now made from a rifle. |
|
|
|
Posted: 5/25/2020 8:18:52 AM EDT
[#14]
You're not making a rifle by converting a pistol into an SBR, you are configuring the pistol in a manner where it must be registered as an NFA weapon, and that "configuration" just happens to be "SBR" No. you are MAKING a rifle when you F1 a pistol. In the law it's a "short barrelled rifle", not a "pistol with a stock" All my F1s are titled "Application to Make and Register a Firearm", and then Box 4b says "Short Barrelled Rifle" for type of firearm to be made. Just because you can easily reconfigure it in Title I status doesn't mean you haven't MADE a new firearm. |
|
|
|
Posted: 5/25/2020 8:48:32 AM EDT
[#15]
Quote HistoryQuoted: No. you are MAKING a rifle when you F1 a pistol. In the law it's a "short barrelled rifle", not a "pistol with a stock" All my F1s are titled "Application to Make and Register a Firearm", and then Box 4b says "Short Barrelled Rifle" for type of firearm to be made. Just because you can easily reconfigure it in Title I status doesn't mean you haven't MADE a new firearm. All my Form 1's say the same thing..... ATF hasn't had any issue with the 3 SBR's I've sent them notifications on that I'm returning to non-NFA pistol configuration and have requested updates be made in the NFRTR guess we are just going to have to agree to disagree on this...... |
|
|
|
Posted: 5/25/2020 9:26:13 AM EDT
[#16]
Quote HistoryQuoted: But it's now made from a rifle. Quote HistoryQuoted: If you have a registered Lower and put a pistol brace on it is no longer a SBR, it is a pistol. But it's now made from a rifle. Pistol>rifle title 1 or SBR title 2>Pistol legal to do |
|
|
|
Posted: 5/25/2020 10:26:52 AM EDT
[#17]
I understand both sides of the argument. I’m not sure which side I fall on, as both have logical backing.
The only time I’ve seen it “in writing” was posted a couple years ago, and was an email reply from the Director of the NFA Branch: 
|
|
|
|
Posted: 5/25/2020 12:28:14 PM EDT
[#18]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Just as having a full auto BCG as written by law now is illegal to have in your AR but ATF deems it permissible. BCG is not by law prohibited, CFR or anything else, nor has ATF ever claimed it was. |
|
|
|
Posted: 5/25/2020 12:33:53 PM EDT
[#19]
Quote HistoryQuoted: BCG is not by law prohibited, CFR or anything else, nor has ATF ever claimed it was. Full auto parts are. You are correct, BATFE has ruled by fiat that full auto BCG is OK |
|
|
|
Posted: 5/25/2020 12:35:33 PM EDT
[#20]
Quoted: Even the ATF uses ruling 2011-4 as a basis for the legality of returning a pistol made into an SBR to a non-nfa (pistol) configuration. I'ts perfectly legal, and done every day..... You're not making a rifle by converting a pistol into an SBR, you are configuring the pistol in a manner where it must be registered as an NFA weapon, and that "configuration" just happens to be "SBR" No different than converting a pistol to an AOW by putting a VFG on it, then returning it to a pistol by removing the VFG My problem is that when you read 2011-4 they use very specific wording that does not describe what we are talking about in this thread. They mention numerous times that you have no issues as long as you don't assemble a gun regulated by NFA Therefore, so long as a parts kit or collection of parts is not used to make a firearm regulated under the NFA (e.g., a short-barreled rifle or “any other weapon” as defined by 26 U.S.C. 5845(e)), no NFA firearm is made when the same parts are assembled or reassembled in a configuration not regulated under the NFA (e.g., a pistol, or a rifle with a barrel of 16 inches or more in length). Held further, a firearm, as defined by 26 U.S.C. 5845(a)(3) and (a)(4), is not made when parts in a kit that were originally designed to be configured as both a pistol and a rifle are assembled or re-assembled in a configuration not regulated under the NFA (e.g., as a pistol, or a rifle with a barrel of 16 inches or more in length). |
|
|
|
Posted: 5/25/2020 12:40:13 PM EDT
[#21]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Full auto parts are. We are discussing a single part, not an entire FCG. A F/A BCG is not illegal in your otherwise S/A gun. |
|
|
|
Posted: 5/25/2020 12:46:18 PM EDT
[#22]
Quote HistoryQuoted: We are discussing a single part, not an entire FCG. A F/A BCG is not illegal in your otherwise S/A gun. I agree. |
|
|
|
Posted: 5/25/2020 1:51:37 PM EDT
[#23]
Quoted: We are discussing a single part, not an entire FCG. A F/A BCG is not illegal in your otherwise S/A gun. and service rifle shooters breathe a sigh of relief....lol |
|
|
|
Posted: 5/25/2020 2:24:37 PM EDT
[#24]
Quote HistoryQuoted: My problem is that when you read 2011-4 they use very specific wording that does not describe what we are talking about in this thread. They mention numerous times that you have no issues as long as you don't assemble a gun regulated by NFA That's the part of 2011-4 that specifically addresses the issue of possession of parts that could constitute "constructive possession" If you build an AOW out of a pistol by attaching a VFG, then notify the ATF that you have removed the VFG and the weapon is no longer in AOW configuration, what do you now have? I own a number of SBR's made from pistols, and over the years have notified the ATF I have returned a few to Non-NFA "pistol" configuration for resale purposes.....numerous members on this site have posted correspondence from the NFA branch stating this is legal and in accordance to their rulings.... This whole argument is like asking someone to show the statutes that state I can legally drive the speed limit |
|
|
|
Posted: 5/26/2020 12:11:24 AM EDT
[#25]
To everyone, THANK YOU!
This has turned into an excellent discussion with great points made on both sides. I truly appreciate all of these replies and information. |
|
|
|
Posted: 5/26/2020 11:06:30 AM EDT
[#26]
This has been discussed numerous times before and there is no clear winner.
No one is going to change anyone's mind on it for the most part, and no one is going to "prove" their argument correct. You can almost tell how old the person is by where they stand on it though. BATFE seems not to care too much these days as long as there is nothing else going on. Back in the day the Thompson case only applied to that specific firearm, then they changed their "opinion" and it applied to all pistols, now it seems they have let it apply to all rifles but haven't released an official "opinion" of it. Depending on your state and other local laws, it may be an issue locally even if not federally. Then add to the fact that with many firearms, a new frame or receiver costs less than a stamp, and it's just easier to have a spare pistol setup to switch to. I can see both sides to the argument, but until that argument happens and is settled in a courthouse, there is no end to it. |
|
|
|
Posted: 5/26/2020 6:17:20 PM EDT
[#27]
I’ll write them a letter to clarify and clear this right up!
|
|
|
|
Posted: 5/30/2020 10:48:21 AM EDT
[#28]
Quote HistoryQuoted: All my Form 1's say the same thing..... ATF hasn't had any issue with the 3 SBR's I've sent them notifications on that I'm returning to non-NFA pistol configuration and have requested updates be made in the NFRTR guess we are just going to have to agree to disagree on this...... All I'm saying is it's a gray area and is not settled in law. The question is, when an SBR is made from a pistol, does the prior status as a pistol still hold? Or is it now a rifle for the future? Chances of getting racked up over it are essentially nil, but it is an unsettled question. |
|
|
|
Posted: 5/30/2020 11:13:41 AM EDT
[#29]
Quote HistoryQuoted: The question is, when an SBR is made from a pistol, does the prior status as a pistol still hold? Or is it now a rifle for the future? |
|
|
|
Posted: 5/30/2020 11:29:18 AM EDT
[#30]
Quote HistoryQuoted: If the ATF (Gary Schaible) has stated that it holds, why keep asking the question? If this was GD I'd be posting the meme "I'm breaking the law. Convince me I'm wrong." But this isn't GD so I won't. |
|
|
|
Posted: 5/30/2020 12:11:27 PM EDT
[#31]
Quote HistoryQuoted: If the ATF (Gary Schaible) has stated that it holds, why keep asking the question? I’m not sure that the fact the ATF says it holds is enough to convince me.  For example. I sent this series of questions, and you can see the answer they gave to a particular question circled in green.  I knew ahead of time that wasn’t the correct answer, so I replied with this:  And got this reply:  Just one of many examples of “just because somebody at the ATF says it’s true, doesn’t actually make it true” scenarios. 
|
|
|
|
Posted: 5/30/2020 12:21:42 PM EDT
[#32]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I'm not sure that the fact the ATF says it holds is enough to convince me. We cannot prove the scenario to be unlawful either, so why ask them? |
|
|
|
Posted: 5/30/2020 2:01:39 PM EDT
[#33]
Quote HistoryQuoted: So again, what would be the benefit of asking ATF about this anymore? We cannot prove the scenario to be unlawful either, so why ask them? I’m definitely not asking them. But I’m also not putting myself in the situation that the answer matters. With six registered lowers and seven braced lowers, I always have other options. I simply build another lower when there’s a different configuration needed.
|
|
|
|
Posted: 5/30/2020 4:28:11 PM EDT
[#34]
I guess the simple answer is this...…
If you are the least bit concerned about it, just use a (Non-NFA) rifle as the basis for your SBR build.....then later, if you wish to return it to Non-NFA status, just put a 16" or longer bbl back on it, or weld on something that will get you back to a 16" bbl / 26" OAL.....then it's a rifle again.......simple as that.... |
|
|
Win a FREE Membership!
Sign up for the ARFCOM weekly newsletter and be entered to win a free ARFCOM membership. One new winner* is announced every week!
You will receive an email every Friday morning featuring the latest chatter from the hottest topics, breaking news surrounding legislation, as well as exclusive deals only available to ARFCOM email subscribers.
AR15.COM is the world's largest firearm community and is a gathering place for firearm enthusiasts of all types.
From hunters and military members, to competition shooters and general firearm enthusiasts, we welcome anyone who values and respects the way of the firearm.
Subscribe to our monthly Newsletter to receive firearm news, product discounts from your favorite Industry Partners, and more.
Copyright © 1996-2024 AR15.COM LLC. All Rights Reserved.
Any use of this content without express written consent is prohibited.
AR15.Com reserves the right to overwrite or replace any affiliate, commercial, or monetizable links, posted by users, with our own.
