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Posted: 9/15/2022 10:05:22 AM EDT
[#1]
That is a very similar load to what I tried with CFE223. I do not see anything unsafe. Hope you have better accuracy than I did, I was getting about 3 inch groups at 120 yards and that's not good enough for me.
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Posted: 9/15/2022 10:10:30 AM EDT
[#2]
450s should so allen fires, and pierced primers at high pressures. I wouldn't think twice about using them. but be careful going above 24.5gr with a 62gr though
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Posted: 9/15/2022 10:41:18 AM EDT
[#3]
23 gr cfe223, 62 fmjbt That load is below min according to Hodgies. |
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Posted: 9/15/2022 11:45:46 AM EDT
[#4]
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Posted: 9/15/2022 12:24:27 PM EDT
[#5]
my problem is i cant find load data using the cci 450 primers. hogdgon says no, cci says no, discussion says yes lol my book shows 23.8 start load with max of 25gr. if i reduce by 10% id be losing 2.3 grains. seemed way to ow to me. figured 23 was a safe start since 23.8 shows as about 51kpsi. should cycle the gun, im hoping. real world data would be greatly helpful to me in this situation. has anybody reliably used cci 450s as primer with a 62 grain fmjbt cannelure? and if so, what charge did you startwith?
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Posted: 9/15/2022 12:27:51 PM EDT
[#6]
thats what i was thinking, i noted that pressures increased when heavier grain bullets were listed. thread here i was reading were all saying about 26 grains, but for 55 gr bullets. Ive been reloading .45acp handgun ammo for a year now, and feel confident to step into firle rounds, then start chasing accuracy lol thanks for the reply.
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Posted: 9/15/2022 12:39:47 PM EDT
[#7]
Quoted: looking at reloading some .223 for my rifles. bushmaster em15 1/9 20inch chrome lined barrel and a built 16 inch m4 clone. wondering if imin a safe range for first load. 23 gr cfe223, 62 fmjbt cannelure(military takedowns) cci450 primers and mised headstamp . 223 brass trimmed at 1.75. cant find any real data using the cci450s and I dont just want to assume thier close to the 41s. any input would be greatly appreciated. thanks i n advance, and howdy all.  I have a tip about posting, double space after complete sentences like I edited your post. This makes your post easier to read and you will get more responses. The "Start" load is where you start loading, you work up from there watching for pressure signs. This is a safe level, and going below can cause issues and not be safe, like a stuck bullet in the barrel. Also the "start" load will cycle your rifle. You don't want a single shot right?  Lyman 51 lists the start load at 23.5 grs CFE-223 with a 62 gr bullet. The beauty of a "start" load it that it is where you can substitute different but like components. In your case primers. Could also be a same weight, but different brand bullet, or a different headstamp case. You don't want to substitute components at the higher charge levels. |
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Posted: 9/15/2022 12:39:52 PM EDT
[#8]
Quoted: looking at reloading some .223 for my rifles. bushmaster em15 1/9 20inch chrome lined barrel and a built 16 inch m4 clone. wondering if imin a safe range for first load. 23 gr cfe223, 62 fmjbt cannelure(military takedowns) cci450 primers and mised headstamp .223 brass trimmed at 1.75. cant find any real data using the cci450s and I dont just want to assume thier close to the 41s. any input would be greatly appreciated. thanks i n advance, and howdy all. CCI-450 primers are a bit milder than #41 primers. CCI-450 primers are designed for ball powders, but aren't as hot as #41 primers. 23.0 grains of CFE-223 is likely too little power to cycle an AR. Hornady and Speer have data, but I don't know if the new Sierra manual has CFE-223 data. https://press.hornady.com/assets/site/hornady/files/load-data/223-rem-60-62gr-1.pdf https://press.hornady.com/assets/site/hornady/files/load-data/5-56-nato-60-62gr.pdf https://reloadingdata.speer.com/downloads/speer/reloading-pdfs/rifle/223_Remington_Gold_Dot_62.pdf https://reloadingdata.speer.com/downloads/speer/reloading-pdfs/rifle/556x45mm_NATO_Gold_Dot_62.pdf |
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Posted: 9/15/2022 12:40:16 PM EDT
[#9]
You’re overthinking it and too worried.
That’s a light load, dive in and work up. |
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Posted: 9/15/2022 12:48:07 PM EDT
[#10]
As per normal Dryflash nailed it. Here are a few links about primers. There are also a few discussions in this forum as well.
https://www.shootingtimes.com/editorial/ammunition_st_mamotaip_200909/100079 https://www.snipershide.com/shooting/threads/a-primer-on-primers.6936610/ https://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2016/07/19/primer-on-primers/ |
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Posted: 9/15/2022 12:56:05 PM EDT
[#11]
Thanks for the welcome, and advice, duly noted.
I had hoped to clear it up by contacting hogdgon and cci, but got the standard 'only go by printed data' and 'cfe223 is a ball type powder that doesnt require a magnum primer' The rea world advice here is being used to supplement the lee manual Im using, which ironicly only list 'srp' as primer for 223 and 41 for 5.56. Note, on my work laptop which apparently has a part time L key lo again, thanks for the welcome and allowing me to acquire more knowledge. |
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Posted: 9/15/2022 1:01:53 PM EDT
[#12]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Thanks for the welcome, and advice, duly noted. I had hoped to clear it up by contacting hogdgon and cci, but got the standard 'only go by printed data' and 'cfe223 is a ball type powder that doesnt require a magnum primer' The rea world advice here is being used to supplement the lee manual Im using, which ironicly only list 'srp' as primer for 223 and 41 for 5.56. Note, on my work laptop which apparently has a part time L key lo again, thanks for the welcome and allowing me to acquire more knowledge. A note on the Lee data. It is not bad, but it is just copying the data from the powder companies, not from any of the bullet makers. The Lee data is the same data you'd find on the powder companies' websites. The Lee books have good info and breaks down explaining things well, but while the data is handy to have, but is no different than the data from the powder companies. It does save from having to look elsewhere for data. |
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Posted: 9/15/2022 1:18:50 PM EDT
[#13]
I tested up to 27.5gr cfe223 with the 62gr gold dot using cci41. Speer lists 27.8gr max at 556 pressure and 26.0 at 223 pressure. Check out this (Speer 223 load data).
https://reloadingdata.speer.com/downloads/speer/reloading-pdfs/rifle/223_Remington_Gold_Dot_62.pdf In regards to your question, I would start at 24gr but that’s just me. |
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Posted: 9/15/2022 1:33:01 PM EDT
[#14]
The military 62 grain penetrator bullets are longer than the 62 grain lead core bullets.
I know there are some imported lead core 62 grain bullets that are sold as military use for some purpose in some country, but most military 62 grain bullets are penetrator bullets. If wanting to load on the safe side, you could use 68 grain and 69 grain bullet load data. I haven't noticed much difference in loads between 62 grain lead core FMJ bullets and 62 grain penetrator bullets, but the penetrator bullets are longer and about as long as 69 grain hollow point bullets. Hornady lumps data for both 60 grain and 62 grain bullets together. Hornady 68 grain 223 Remington CFE-223 data - 22.5 to 26.3gr. Hornady 68 grain 5.56 NATO CFE-223 data - 23.3 to 26.9gr. Lee should have Hodgdon's 223 data for 60, 62, 63 and 69 grain bullets, you can use to compare. |
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Posted: 9/15/2022 1:55:21 PM EDT
[#15]
In this state of the industry you have work with what you can lay hands on.
You must do a PROPER load work up to ensure SAFE, RELIABLE, and ACCURATE reloads. Reduce max charge from data source by 10 % and work up in 1 percent increments or so. Look at low end charge weight from data source and use that as basis to work to max charge weight/ Once you find a load that shoots good in your rifle. Then and only then should make larger batches. Keep records. Mixed headstamp brass is not a good idea in any caliber especially those larger than 223. |
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Posted: 9/15/2022 1:59:12 PM EDT
[#16]
I had been reading and searching forums for a week or so and decided this one seemed to have the most helpful and knowledgable members.
I was working under the conclusion that the 450s were a touch cooler and a different anvi shape than the 41s. Everything Ive read indicated as much, so I reduced the start charge by .8 grains, and myy book shows about a 9800psi per grain increase. After the responses and info gleaned here, Im confident in the listed start charge of 23.8, and have also concluded that I may be better of loading for 5.56. And since I only own the lee book, any suggestions on which one woud be a good first purchase? I will probably add 30/30 to the reoading set eventually, and possibly 7.62x39 once m confident. I pretty much only use eithier weapon for personal training and drills, and the occasionalcoyote at the treeline(130 yards or so) first is a nato chambered bushmaster xm15e2s, 20 bull barrel, 1/9 twist, chrome lined. purchased in the early 90s. second is an anderson ower, with a psa upper and full auto bcg, 16 inch mid length dissipator, 1/7 twist nitride barrel, brand new build, never fired yet. going to a friends range which reaches out to 700 yards after I site them in, both have new scopes just instaled on carry hande mounts, so well see if they hold zero. Again, thanks for all the advice. |
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Posted: 9/15/2022 2:25:53 PM EDT
[#17]
thanks for the advice, duly noted.
as far as brass goes, it was free, and I ended up with about 400 pieces. I do plan on getting a ram swage and switching to only nato brass after my 400 mixed learning curve. The bushmaster that will be used for testing has never fired anything other than surpus steel case fmj, so it should be happy even with mixed brass. thanks again for the reply. |
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Posted: 9/15/2022 3:10:15 PM EDT
[#18]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I had been reading and searching forums for a week or so and decided this one seemed to have the most helpful and knowledgable members. I was working under the conclusion that the 450s were a touch cooler and a different anvi shape than the 41s. Everything Ive read indicated as much, so I reduced the start charge by .8 grains, and myy book shows about a 9800psi per grain increase. After the responses and info gleaned here, Im confident in the listed start charge of 23.8, and have also concluded that I may be better of loading for 5.56. And since I only own the lee book, any suggestions on which one woud be a good first purchase? I will probably add 30/30 to the reoading set eventually, and possibly 7.62x39 once m confident. I pretty much only use eithier weapon for personal training and drills, and the occasionalcoyote at the treeline(130 yards or so) first is a nato chambered bushmaster xm15e2s, 20 bull barrel, 1/9 twist, chrome lined. purchased in the early 90s. second is an anderson ower, with a psa upper and full auto bcg, 16 inch mid length dissipator, 1/7 twist nitride barrel, brand new build, never fired yet. going to a friends range which reaches out to 700 yards after I site them in, both have new scopes just instaled on carry hande mounts, so well see if they hold zero. Again, thanks for all the advice. Some 20 plus years ago, Hodgdon used to publish a hard cover manual that was extremely popular. The Speer manual layout is very similar to the old Hodgdon manual, but some Speer load data seems odd to me, especially 30-30 and 308 Winchester. The new Speer manual is very expensive for some reason. I haven't looked inside the new one yet. The Sierra and Hornady manuals have similar layouts. Sierra didn't not update their manual for many years. Not long ago, Sierra did come out with a new version, but I haven't seen it yet. The Hornady manual is good and is the only one that takes into account the gas port pressure, in its service rifle load data for semi auto rifles. For 30-30, the cases are thin and easily damaged. Since 30-30 requires crimping for tube magazines, the Lee Factory Crimp Die is the best thing to crimp 30-30 and avoid crushing the thin cases. I've loaded 7.62x39 since 1986. Not economical, but fun. RCBS is owned by the same company that owns Speer. RCBS used to offer package deals with presses and the Speer load guide, but since it became so expensive, RCBS offers the fairly economical Nosler load guide packaged now instead. Some people like the Lyman manual and there is also the Berger manual, which is specific to Berger bullets, but the data seems useful for other bullets of similar weights. |
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Posted: 9/15/2022 4:39:10 PM EDT
[#19]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Thanks for the welcome, and advice, duly noted. I had hoped to clear it up by contacting hogdgon and cci, but got the standard 'only go by printed data' and 'cfe223 is a ball type powder that doesnt require a magnum primer' The rea world advice here is being used to supplement the lee manual Im using, which ironicly only list 'srp' as primer for 223 and 41 for 5.56. Note, on my work laptop which apparently has a part time L key lo again, thanks for the welcome and allowing me to acquire more knowledge. This forum is a friendly place where we help each other with reloading issues and when we discover a new technique or tip we share. Primer choice in 223 can be an issue with so many choices when you are starting out.  No matter what SR primer you use, ensure it is seated below flush. Notice as you look over a primer, you can see a little of the case above the primer on the far side. Ideal seating depth is .002 to .005 below flush. Your choice of CCI 450 is perfect. Keep in mind, "Start" load any SR primer will work. (except Rem 6 1/2, a low pressure primer) Also realize loading data is not hard science. It is a report of what happened when this caliber was tested with these listed components. So expect data to vary. Remember they used different test equipment, rifles, cases, bullets, and primers, and lab techs. All variables. I have found the data in Lyman 51 to be right on in 25 Auto, 32 Auto, 380, 9mm, 10mm, 45 ACP, and 7TCU, 7-30 Waters Pistols. Rifles 223, 6.5 Grendel, 300 blk, 308, 350 Legend, 35 Rem. I highly recommend Lyman 51, has a great "how to reload" section, tech articles, and in the back loading data for cast and jacketed bullets for rifle and pistol.  What I do after I size a case and remove sizing lube (dry tumbling in plain corn cob) is ream the primer crimp front drill, a one time thing. Then switch to the back drill and uniform the primer pocket, another one time thing. What this does is cut the primer pocket to a uniform depth to ensure primers seat below flush. As well as remove the crimp. Both of these reamers had a built in stop, so you can't over do it. Just insert case straight, run drill a couple of seconds, when the chips stop falling you are done. Uniforming primer pockets is not mandatory if you can get the primers to seat below flush, but some case brands will not let you seat below flush without reaming. I'm a perfectionism and strive for uniforminatity in my handloads, so I uniform. My primers always seat below flush and I don't have to worry about using a "hard primer" because I seated the primer below flush. I have had no issues loading CCI 400's and Win SR primers. (soft primers) At present I am using Wolf SRM primers I bought back in 2008, back when primers were $15 per K. |
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Posted: 9/15/2022 8:24:07 PM EDT
[#20]
As far as CCI primers go, I started getting primer flattening
with the 400's well before seeing any flattening with the 450's. 450's have a slightly thicker cup (.025) as opposed to the 400's (.020) and are a magnum primer which is actually preferred for ball powders especially in colder weather. |
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Posted: 9/16/2022 7:43:20 AM EDT
[#21]
Thanks dryflash. Lyman 51 is on order, and Im not telling the wife Ive ordered more tools lol.
Uniformity is a good practice, as it saves time and prevents accidents. I may have overdone it with my first brass cleaning, but all outdoor range brass, and mostly thru full auto. So I wetwashed, blew dry, tumbled in cob, lubed, sized and deprimed, then wetwashed and blew dry again lol Since im running lee setup, whats your opinion on ram swage for primer pockets? Which is better, cutting or swaging? |
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Posted: 9/16/2022 9:23:25 AM EDT
[#22]
I know the RCBS ram swager is a PITA and I wish I hadn’t wasted $35 on it. Chuck a reamer in a drill and go to town.
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Posted: 9/16/2022 9:46:40 AM EDT
[#23]
@dryflash3
Sorry to hijack but have been wanting ask how you got the Hornady crimp and pocket reamers mounted on hex-studs. Was this a custom thing or am I just not having any luck finding the hex-studs? |
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Posted: 9/16/2022 11:00:35 AM EDT
[#24]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Thanks dryflash. Lyman 51 is on order, and Im not telling the wife Ive ordered more tools lol. Uniformity is a good practice, as it saves time and prevents accidents. I may have overdone it with my first brass cleaning, but all outdoor range brass, and mostly thru full auto. So I wetwashed, blew dry, tumbled in cob, lubed, sized and deprimed, then wetwashed and blew dry again lol Since im running lee setup, whats your opinion on ram swage for primer pockets? Which is better, cutting or swaging? I both cut and Swage to remove primer crimps. IME swaging is faster but works best then you are working through consistent headstamps. If you work with mixed headstamps swaging, you will need to set it for a depth then go by feel to prevent over swaging some brass. Cutting is easy to set up, works for any headstamp but I find it slower and much more tiring gir my hands. Large catches of sorted grass I Swage. Small batches I cut. |
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Posted: 9/16/2022 12:23:27 PM EDT
[#25]
Quote HistoryQuoted: @dryflash3 Sorry to hijack but have been wanting ask how you got the Hornady crimp and pocket reamers mounted on hex-studs. Was this a custom thing or am I just not having any luck finding the hex-studs? They can come with a Lyman kit, or go to Lowes or other box store and get 8-32 Coupling nut . |
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Posted: 9/16/2022 6:58:45 PM EDT
[#26]
CCI-450 primers are almost exactly comparable to CCI-41's. They are tough primers and hold pressure well.
62 grain military "pull downs" rarely perform well on target. Don't get your hopes up. I never start below minimum. I rarely start at minimum unless I am using a brass/powder/primer combination I have never tried before. |
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Posted: 9/20/2022 7:56:51 PM EDT
[#27]
from everything im reading and seeing now, I agree.
as a question, is winchester service rifle just winchesters specific load data for thier model ar? if so, thats the load data I was planning on using. |
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Posted: 9/20/2022 11:18:14 PM EDT
[#28]
Quote HistoryQuoted: from everything im reading and seeing now, I agree. as a question, is winchester service rifle just winchesters specific load data for thier model ar? if so, thats the load data I was planning on using. What Winchester service rifle data? Is it the same as Hodgdon's website? That looks like they took data, old and new and decreased it by a certain percentage and not actually tested it. Note the pressures listed are in both newer PSI and older CUP, which shouldn't even be in newer data. Do you mean 308 Winchester data? |
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