What are you guys wearing under your PCs in the winter to go shooting?  Right now I've got some hooded wool layers I'll wear under the PC & also take a big jacket to go over everything, but didn't know if there were better options.  Winter range temps for me go from 10-40 sometimes.

thanks!

The problem with Winter Gear is layering.

The rule of thumb is that when you step out into the cold you should feel a slight chill, because as your activity level increases your body will heat up cancelling out that chill. If you don't feel a slight chill when you step outside then what will happen is that as your activity level increases you will sweat.  That sweat will drench your clothing and eventually wearing that wet clothing  your body temperature will be lowered, which you don't want.

Typically, when your activity level decreases you'll throw on a warmer outer layer to keep your body warm while you're less active or maybe even static.  For example, you go from wearing a Level 5 softshell to the insulated Level 7 jacket requiring taking off the Level 5 jacket and then putting on the Level 7.  Also, temperatures can change big time over the course of a day in the winter, when you leave the temps early morning might be a full 10 degrees or more colder than in the afternoon so maybe you end up having to reduce your outer layer warmth.  Wearing a plate carrier makes that more difficult, because now to toss on a jacket you've got to either remove the plate carrier or have a huge jacket that goes over the carrier, but that jacket if worn over the plate carrier has to be unzipped in order to access the pouches on it.  

If you run a plate carrier make sure that the plate carrier can be easily taken on and off as you change layers.  Addition of a cummerbund with First Spears tubes or similar quick attach method would be ideal.  In the alternative you could run a slick carrier worn under any outer layer (the layer you're more likely to change) and a chest rig (perhaps a split chest rig with a zipper up its middle) over the plate carrier and outer layer.  

That's my thinking on it anyways. I'm curious to see what others think.

@KaerMorhenResident  Yeah, thats what I normally do so I don't sweat out in the cold; I normally don't add layers on until I"m out & set up in my blinds in the winter so I don't soak my underlayers getting there (amazing how much you sweat hauling a few dozen goose decoys through the snow).  I'm more of talking base layers for under the PC only.  If I ever need to wear it for real in winter I was wondering what the best way to do it.  my thought was kinda wicking layer long sleeve shirt, hooded wool sweater, shell with vents & pit zips and THEN the pc over top of that.    

My thought on taking it on & off when wearing layers is that you would need to adjust the fit normally if you didn't have an elastic cummerbund (i'm waiting on an elastic tubes one).  It seems ill advised to be messing with it too much.  

Base layer thermal
Team shirt
Crye combat shirt
Arcteryx atom vest
Vertx recon jacket
Army issued hard shell jacket
Plate carrier

Good to 25 degrees so far without a problem

Elastic cummerbund would definitely be the smart way to go, it's not going to be a perfect fit though, but it would be better than the non-elastic for sure, good call with that.   The ideal would be elastic with the tubes (First Spear and I know there is another type of plastic can't recall the name).  

The insulation that you pick-up from the carrier would I think warrant going a step down in the PCU recommend layer for your top shirt and jacket.  

PCU Layer Graphic


In short, if it recommend a Level 2 grid long sleeve shirt I'd probably step down to a Level 1.  If it recommend a Level 5 I'd probably step down to a regular BDU top.  

I guess that's kind of the short coming of the US Army PCU system is that it doesn't account for the insulation of the plate carrier, which I imagine the US Army is going to require the soldier wears since every b-roll news footage I see of U.S. troops training in Europe for winter warfare shows them wearing plate carriers.  The torso is going to get the insulation of the plate carrier, but the arms aren't going to get that insulation. So, you step down to account for the carrier and end up with cold arms.

I know there are higher end folks like UF Pro who make gear that might address that issue, but I don't like that their items seems to be more "stand alone" and not a neat layering system like the US Army's PCU system.  Also the UF Pro gear is insanely expensive in my opinion.  I know Tru-Spec makes a winter combat shirt, but again that's one item and not part of a layering system.  I guess I kind of want it all made to work together.  

I love the fact that you can go out and buy a PCU level 1 through 7 surplus for not a ton of money and it's good stuff.  Looks like they could stand to update it though to account for plate carriers more than I think it originally might have been when they first developed it.

@KaerMorhenResident

I ordered an elastic tubes one from coyote tactical today should work pretty well.  Thanks for the graphic, I’d not seen that before and i just ordered some level 7 stuff to keep in our cars.  Been meaning to do it and  finally got around for it.  I might try to get some level 5 stuff just have the shells.

I did some winter shooting recently in my PC. I think it depends all on how long you're going to be out for, and what your activity level will be.

I was just doing some mild shooting drills in wool socks, winter boots, flannel lined pants down bottom. Up top I had on an undershirt, button down light flannel, fleece, plate carrier. I was outside for about 2 hours, a little chilled but not uncomfortable. I could have easily thrown a winter jacket over, kept it zipped halfway for mags, and been real solid.

Nice, let me know how you like the Coyote Tactical. You’re welcome about that graphic, everyone is different but so far that thing works for me. The Level 7 is great but for me it’s way too hot for anything above 0F. I get the most use out of my level 5 during the winter since the coldest I’m typically outdoors in is single digits.

@KaerMorhenResident   Coyote tactical gas me tracking same day I ordered.  Was going to order from Beez but was having issues getting sizing help from them.   The Coyote tactical should be exactly what I need.  

I only got L7 bottoms to take the kids sledding in since I’ll be doing a lot of standing and not moving.  Going to start looking for a L5 jacket if you’ve got any suggestions on where to look.  I’d like to avoid a camo pattern and get it either in green or gray ideally.

Ecwcs genIII off ebay. Especially the level 1 and 2. These can be had quite cheap if u shop around. With a wind or rain shell over the top they will keep you warm down to well below freezing as long as your moving and they breathe very well. Imo the Peckham stuff is the best. Legit sellers will have pics of the tags.

Silkweights as a base player under normal clothing FTW.

That with a fleece top, under the PC will keep you very warm in the 20 degree range, if you're moving around alot.

The silkies are awesome. I'd never done proper layering until I got ecwcs stuff and its a revelation. My friends always want to just get the waffles and fleeces and its hard to convince people the level 1 is the key to the whole system.

Your spot on, I agree


Its about 30 degrees in this pic.
I have a Gen 2 waffle top and then a fleece zip up

If I had to start walking for an extended period of time, I would work up a sweat. But being Static at the range...Just right. Most folks over dress for there situation.

I use UF Pro products that are designed from the ground up for being worn under Plate Carriers. 30s to 40s is the Hunter FZ Jacket, below that is either the Delta Ace Jacket, or the Ace Winter Combat Shirt - they are basically two versions of the same thing, but I can wear the jacket for other tasks, around town (the AWCS is in Multicam, since that color is/was 40% off). Merino Wool Long Sleeve, or T-Shirt as the base layer.

I just wear a fleece or sweatshirt with a wind/rain shell.


Or a Patagonia PCU Flex5

You really don’t want to overdress in the cold

@GreenMushroom
@JoeDevola  

I've got a bunch of silk & merino base layers that I normally use for upland bird hunting in the winter.  If it gets really cold I put level 2 waffles on my bottom half.

@demoMouse  I learned that lesson working construction in the winter.  I really learned to be a little cold when I started working & then once I was moving I was good.  Hardly ever wore my Carhartt big zip up jacket unless it was terrible out.  

I guess I just need to try to find some solid color Gen 3 Level 5 stuff now.  

I wear my armor under my coat if I need it. Although 20-30 really isnt that cold to me so I wouldn't really change anything. Just jeans, tshirt, fleece or wool shirt.

If its under 20 ill throw my lvl 7 coat over

Attached File

Absolutely, can't say enough good things about the Silkies and you can get some Rothco Level 1s pretty cheaply.  I have the Beyond Clothing Level 2s (waffle grid long underwear) and honestly those are something I only wear once it's below zero out (if it's below zero I'm typically not outdoors anyways).

The Level 1s give you that right amount of insulation and breathability.  The decision about whether to go Level 1 or 2 is probably the most important one.

Static vs active, high wind vs low wind, cloud cover vs. clear skies, altitude changes, proximity to water...sooo many factors can impact you and so winter is just a constant changing of outer garments game.  

Funny story, my wife and I go up to Michigan's Upper Peninsula in early June a few years back.  There were still huge ice bergs floating in Lake Superior in June.  As we drove closer to the harbor I watched the temperature drop from 80 something degrees to around 60 something degrees.  Just amazing, I didn't expect that, but I should have.  So, not only does the weather play a factor, but terrain will play a huge factor.  

@KaerMorhenResident

Okay, I’m sold.  Ordering some level 1 today.  Does manufacturer matter?   eBay has a ton but didn’t know if the mfg matters.  I’ve got beyond level 2 waffles so I really only need level 1 & 5 stuff.

I only own the Rothco Level 1 silkies.  So far this is my first winter with them, but I've got a lot of use out of them and they've held up well after multiple washes.  Normally I wouldn't buy anything Rothco, but their Level 1 underwear is actually pretty good and I have a fleece hat from them that works well.

Don’t discount how warm a decent knit cap will keep you

@demoMouse  I've got a bunch of those in assorted colors. They're usually wool/poly blends or 100% merino depending on the weather.  I've found the 'best' hat of the bunch for super cold is an OR Wind Pro Hat.  I had to order mine through LaRue since I couldn't find it in stock anywhere.  My only complaint is that I have to keep pulling it down.

Peckham is what I would recommend. It's current issue and will often be labeled ADS also. The usmc frog stuff is also made by Peckham but tends to be a little more expensive.

Eta

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Polartec-Gen-III-Level-1-ECWCS-Cold-Lightweight-Army-Undershirt-med-reg-NEW/254823166601?hash=item3b54a4f289:g:-BIAAOSwpcFf74t0

Hopefully will work. Ebay links tend to be wonky. 2nd pic will show the tags. I wouldn't buy from anyone who doesn't show the tags.

Peckham makes the soft stuff. If you want shells I prefer the Tennier stuff but the Proper and Tullahoma are good too. If you want non camo stuff I'd look at the pcu patagonia Gortex stuff. Haven't bought any myself but I'm sure its quality. Stay away from the orc rain gear. It looks nice and is solid color but is not Gortex and is not breathable plus smells like ass.

Minus33 on Amazon is legit - tested out their thinnest Base Layer (Ticonderoga IIRC) 100% Merino offering this past couple weeks = 100. Merino.tech T-Shirt performed well, too.

Also the level 5 in ecwcs is not waterproof. Not sure how the pcu levels work.

That's correct, the Level 5 PCU is not waterproof, but it will resist water and is certain fit for wear in snow environments. If it's a downpour though you need to step up to Level 6, which unfortunately doesn't ventilate/breath as well as Level 5.  

Basically, Level 5 is softshell and Level 6 is hardshell.  

The only thing I don't like about my Level 5's are the suspenders. I might get different aftermarket suspenders for them at some point.

While we're at it:

Keeping as much skin covered as possible helps tremendously in high wind.

Good old SAS neck warmer/neck gaiters are very useful too.  Keeping that neck covered makes a difference, in certain cold and wind.

A knit or fleece hat, and neck warmer can be diffe with a quickness and stuffed in a cargo pocket to cool down, then come out and back in when you're stationary or colder.

I tried a bunch of head covers and settled on this.

https://bsbrand.com/collections/blackstrap-sock-hood-balaclava-facemask/products/sock-hood-solid-olive?variant=32502854156373

Doesn't scrunch my nose and hangs loose enough it doesn't get all wet from your breath. Can put a beanie and a neck gaiter over it if your stationary.

Not to hijack this guys thread but whats the deal with the pcu stuff? Is it still issued or an older version of the ecwcs? I've seen some of the beyond grid fleeces uppers with the slant zippered chest pocket that look nice. Seems they can be had new in package. Are they the same light weight grid as the ecwcs level 2?

@GreenMushroom  You're good man.  I'd consider anything that is worn outside to shoot in the winter applicable to the conversation.  Also, I learned a whole lot more than I thought by some of the 'off topic' statements.

That thing's pretty cool.  Would work well under a helmet.  Reminds me of the sleeping hoods that were issued with our sleeping bags.  Many of us wore them in cold weather.

It's all germane to the topic, as one of the issues you run into when using armor in extreme cold is the temperature differential you get, where your torso has that "heater" on it.  So for me at least quick layering and unlayering has much to do with extremities, covering or uncovering, as need be.

Anything you can do on the fly, without having to don and doff 1st & 2nd line, is gold.